Is there any advantage in going to art school if you are a heavily motivated and productive learner on your own? I'm 25 already. :/
I want to know if I should shell out $40,000 over 4 years or just learn it all by myself online, likely still paying a few grand for the premium stuff and tools.
Do you have a good free museum near you? If so, you could go there very often and study there instead.
>>2586929
>25
inb4 neuroplasticity
>>2586929
I didnt go to art school til I was 26... I don't regret a day of it. You'd be surprised how many older students there are. That being said, my answer is yes, go to art school
>>2586929
go to an atelier
>>2587041
What this guy said, I went at 24 and was nowhere near the oldest. Art school is great, getting critiqued by someone who spent their life learning it will point out stuff you never would have thought about. It's also a much easier way to network and get into the professional world. And me personally, having that sort of competitiveness with other students drove me to really push myself much further
I'm surprised people in this thread recommending art school, knowing what ic generally thinks about it.
Anyway, as long as the school you're going to isn't a ripoff, then it's worth considering. Both paths (self taught or going to school) are equally valid, you just have to decide what's best in your circumstance.
>>2586929
I spent 2 years drawing 40 hrs+ a week and working part time before going to art school at 26. My ideas about how I wanted to work changed completely within the first year. People often say art school stamps out a natural desire to paint and draw but I think over the last couple of years I've reevaluated my motives for the better - if I were to paint full time now I would be able to situate myself contextually and make moves in line with what's going on around me, rather than being stuck in old paradigms / a Wikipedia art history education. The challenge is reconciling a natural desire to create with what you are hammered with at art school, basically that the canon is bs and you need to make your own way. Connections are the most valuable thing for me - I've met so many people who are on my buzz and who are making cool shit. It's the most invigorating educational experience I've had and though I have some off days, for the most part I don't regret coming here in the least. Also the tutors are incredible - while they night not always offer the technical support you need, just talking to people who've been there and know how it is to work like this is a really important experience. Tldr fucking do it
>>2587058
>Mid-20's.
>Professional careers.
Does this mean the whole "X-age and still bad" thing is a meme?
I'm 20 and sh*t.
>>2586929
Is this your first time on /ic/?
Jesus christ why do we get these threads every fucking day
No, art school is not worth it in 99% of cases, especially not if it costs just 40k. Your motivation will not stay the same, so you need to discipline yourself. Even if you do the bare minimum, you're going to learn more than more school.
Depending on how much of a beginner you are, there are a few options if you're murican, if not, don't even bother.
>>2587114
You just said nothing
>>2587116
I said don't go to art school
>>2586929
It's better to find a dedicated personal instructor.
>>2587205
learning environment
when all your peers are doing their best and improving it makes it easier for you to go all out
>>2587124
I agree and it's especially true of American universities subsidized by gov't loans. They can just keep raising tuition prices and everyone will pay because muh blank check loans
>>2586929
Why not go to atelier for a fraction of that price? Why not meet on personal basis with other artists? Why not get involved in local art community and do stuff for your city like designing posters or involving yourself in exhibits and workshops?
So many opportunities that can help you grow as an artist and don't involve spending lots and lots of money.
>>2587443
To add to this - do you know what Mark Carder did that helped his art and interests? He helped in restoration and making copies of art pieces for the local museum.
>>2587441
American schools are useless because of the tuition and European schools are useless because they're shit.
>>2587012
OP here, I have a God-tier atelier near me
http://academyofrealistart.com/arawp/
>>2586929
>Is there any advantage in going to art school if you are a heavily motivated and productive learner on your own?
All awesome artists I know have art education, sooo. This meme is not real and based on logical fallacy >>2587124
Depends on the quality of the art school and how much money it will cost you. Also if you're really able to learn on your own or not. Generally speaking I would say it's not worth it if you need to go into debt.
>>2587021
Looks like OP has begun to rapidly lose it.
>>2587550
Lol sure you do buddy
I bet you're illustrat
>>2587540
Definitely not god-tier, but doesn't look too bad. Try it and see for yourself if you'll learn anything
>>2587579
Illistrat can barely piece together legible posts.
....dis kid a hater.....wht u kno...
>>2586929
Do it if you can finance it via scholarships or grants, don't if you can't. Also depends on what your career goals are. Make sure to check the work of teachers and students to make sure it's the right fit for you.
>>2587205
Hands on instruction, access to tools and facilities, a creative environment full of other serious artists, access and instruction in media you otherwise wouldn't learn, a diploma, art history education
>>2587550
>pic
Silver Drawing Academy is an atelier-style, studio environment school where classes and workshops are bought and paid for by the week, as opposed to the art schools wherein one may be liable for $50,000 at the stroke of a pen. This is what he's referring to when he mentions having attended "classes" and "workshops", himself. He's teaching in the manner in which he claims to have learned. I regret having to remove that portion of the image in its latest iteration (the intent was to highlight Silver's success) but I was tired of this confusion.
>All awesome artists I know have art education
Yeah well my dad works for Nintendo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
>This meme is not real and based on logical fallacy
The fact that 84% of working professional artists do not have any kind of formal education in art is not a logical fallacy.
The fact that many art schools cost upwards of $45,000 a year to attend in the U.S. regardless of their credentials is not a logical fallacy.
The fact that both fine art and commercial arts graduates on average make the same amount of money that highschool graduates make is not a logical fallacy.
Have fun at art school, personally I hope OP pursues a more fiscally ethical art education through an atelier, apprenticeship or online workshop instead.
>>2587685
You post same meme pictures for years here.
Name 50 modern self taught artists who don't draw since childhood. With proofs
>The fact that 84% of working professional artists
>unknown articles from shitty source
>fact
>>2587685
If that data is even accurate, it doesn't say much. The majority of "working artists" might not have a degree, but how many of those jobs are barely art related or grunt-tier? Quoting Noah Bradley like he's one of the Magnificent Seven of contemporary artists? C'mon.
>>2587685
>I grew up in LA with artist parents
Oh well I'll just do that instead
>>2587739
>You post same meme pictures for years here.
Guilty
>Name 50 modern self taught artists who don't draw since childhood. With proofs
How many college educated artists do you think went on to work as artists while simultaneously eschewing art during their childhood? What a silly question, and until either of us are granted the magical powers of clairvoyance needed to look at the lives of professional artists as they grow up intimately in real time it is one that will remain unanswered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
It is suggested through U.S. census data provided by a third party and through anecdotes provided by very successful working artists of varying styles that an expensive formal art education is a contrivance that young artists may be able to do without when it comes to securing employment as an artist. It is suggested by Forbes and other reputable sources that people that have gone through these institutions make around the same amount of money as newly-minted highschool graduates as well. The take-away from this is that the incentive to pursue an expensive art degree is very low.
If you disagree with that because "every good artist you know personally" went to art school, that's simply fantastic. Good luck. I will continue to promote alternative means of education online and off because I think that's the right thing to do, and I feel have good reason to believe that based on both anecdotes and numbers that support them.
>>2587836
>anecdotes
My dad works for Nintendo
>>2587836
Look, school gives does five important things for you:
1. Network
2. Structure
3. Credibility
4. Skills
5. Shows you can work with others.
You might do great art but be an asshole diva who's impossible to work with and only works during full moon, naked and with blood on his face. If you were in school I directly know this is not the case. So I'll work together with someone who was in school. And everyone will give their jobs to people who were in school. So no jobs for you, diva wolfboy.
>>2587586
I love how nobody provides evidence.
>>2587834
>Quoting Noah Bradley like he's one of the Magnificent Seven of contemporary artists
These artists weren't necessarily chosen on "artistic merit" alone for inclusion in this image. Expediency was certainly a factor (many of them were just among the first commercial artists I could think of on the top of my head), how their personal experiences might correlate with other artists who are also quoted was another.
Noah Bradley's relatively famous impassioned rebuke of art school for example is valuable not because how good or bad his work might be (he actually did go to art school, for one), but mostly because he has extensive inside industry experience and testifies that he was not questioned on his expensive educational attainment, a phenomenon that Clint Cearley had echoed in his "Breaking into the Art Industry" video quoted in the image and a sentiment that Steven Silver has expressed both over youtube and facebook, respectively. The significance of this should be obvious. If you spend $40,000 you'd expect that to mean something, but by all appearances it is an afterthought to the people to whom it should hypothetically matter most (employers).
>>2587871
Any time this discussion comes up people start focusing on the cost and the professional outcomes and the educational aspect gets almost entirely ignored.
You certainly don't have to go to art school to get an art education, but is it easier if you do? How much are you willing to pay to make that education easier? I think those are the questions people should ask themselves.
There's a lot to be said for a structured curriculum, access to instructors, access to studios, and all sorts of other resources. There's a lot to be said for external pressure to study, produce, and improve. Schools give you all of that stuff and a lot of people progress faster in such an environment than when trying to self-teach.
If you're looking for a purely financial return on investment then art school is probably the wrong choice.
For whatever it's worth, for $40,000 I would look at spending a few years at an atelier instead. You're likely to get a better education for the price.
>>2586929
>Is there any advantage in going to art school if you are a heavily motivated and productive learner on your own?
Nope, at the end of the day all artists are self taught. Doesn't matter how good your teachers are or how much encouragement you get from your peers, you're the one that has to put in the work, and do the studies, and git gud, and no one can really help you with that. People can tell you what to practice or what to keep in mind while practicing, but that's it. Be motivated, effective, and self-aware, and you'll go far on your own as long as you put in the hours.
>>2586929
It's never too late to begin with art. You are NOT old if you're 25. When you're 35, you'll regret not spending 10 (TEN) years drawing. Think back ten years ago. You were 15. Think about how much has happened since then and surely you regret not starting then right now. In 10 years time, you'll be 35 and the same amount of time has passed. It's up to you how you spend that time and spending it doing art is definitely time well spent.
Anyway, if you can surround yourself with people who know what they talk about on a regular basis already, then don't go. People who know their shit as well as a structured curriculum is by far the biggest advantages to going to art school. The biggest drawback is that an art degree is only worth as much as the art you're able to produce. If you have some fancy ass degree but can't draw for shit, you're not gonna make it. If you can draw like a master without a degree, however, you're golden.
>>2587930
There is a lot of advantage if the school gets you connections, connections don't mean everything but they can certainly mean the difference between getting your first job or not.
>>2587871
If you spend 40k then you're retarded, we agree. But there are other ways to finance an education, I got a BFA from an in-state liberal arts college. Is it as prestigious as Yale? No, but I learned a whole hell of a lot, and it was free thanks to scholarships.
>>2587930
People can help you with that. Peers help by providing a creative and helpful with lots of critiques and cross-pollination, as well as a competitive environment that compels you to git gud. Teachers help with hands on instruction, advice drawn from decades of experience doing the very thing you're learning, and creating projects and deadlines that encourage you to both think creatively and work diligently.
>>2587844
>3. Credibility
Oh boy, you're an idiot. There is no job posting that I have ever seen in a serious art position that required a degree of any kind.
No one cares. Stop trying to justify your shitty art school degree.
>>2588316
>None of those things are exclusive to a school.
Be realistic. Sure they're not unique to schools, but it's a lot easier to find those things at a school than elsewhere. Not to mention they're rarely all in one place.
Online learning has quite a narrow viewpoint for painting. It is universal for everyone, concentrated on results like the picture in your post. Wich is fine if you want to be a conceptart sort of guy. But in art school you will get personal attention from your tutors - they will notice your strengths and weaknesses and direct accordingly. It's all the more better by being able to discuss the courses and your ideas with your mates. No matter if the discussion is very critical or approving - either way, you develope an understanding that you did not have before. I prefered being in the middle of other atrists and tutors instead of listening through a computer screen. I still meet up with many of my colleagues to talk about our thoughts, progress, current trends and such.
>>2587540
IMO not god tier, the results are appealing but this atelier, like most, utilize a technique called "Sight-Size". Essentially sight-size enables you to be a glorified copy fag. Don't get me wrong, it's a good tool to have (since it helps ensure accuracy and not symbolizing) but if you have that be the end of your learning, and you don't learn how to understand forms/perspective/how to draw from imagination/etc. you're gonna be limited in what you do. This Atelier CAN work but you'd have to do a lot on the side in terms of stretching your imaginative skills.
Personally, if I had the money, assuming your skill level is low, I'd work on fundamentals through Watts Atelier Online, Drawbox, Foundation Patreon, CTRLPaint, Andrew Loomis and Proko. At a certain level, I'd probably consider a mentor.
At the end of the day though a good chunk of it is mileage. Presuming you have good learning material, it's just about doing still lives, drawing from life, doing photo studies, learning perspective, learning how to draw the figure from imagination, etc. etc.
>>2588975
What are all the cons of going to art school, in your opinion?
>>2588975
You didn't really address my point, you just changed the subject to employment prospects.
>>2586929
Id strongly recommend a 1 year trade program. At 25 you should have the maturity to do well and this way you can get to work well before 30.
Even if it costs that same 40 grand in 1 year you will make it back faster by working for an extra 3.
>>2589016
Arguing with this autist is bad idea. You can find most of his posts using this tag
https://warosu.org/ic/?task=search&ghost=&search_text=anecdotes
>>2589003
Not him but
>it's expensive (not a con if you're wealthy or got a free ride to be the token minority, like many of your classmates will be)
>It's a surprisingly narrow minded environment
>the job prospects are a total gamble, unless you're going into advertising or you develop a really smashing portfolio for animation
I ended up majoring in film, which at least got me connections in a career I like. But my god, I wonder how many people I met who spent four years mushing paint around on canvas or taking nude self portraits, only to work in retail or service jobs. The lucky ones got (a second) free ride in a sensible degree, courtesy of mommy and daddy.
I had good experiences, and many of the bad ones were my own doing, but I can't help thinking I might've gotten better value out of a traditional university, or even a different major.
>>2588975
>People who go to art school are more likely to fail in the long term than succeed
So are people in general. There's no evidence that attending art school increases one's chances of failure. That would just be silly
>>2589176
>wealthy or token minority
Or if you have half a shit in high school and qualify for an academic scholarship, or if you've actually put effort into your art and get a scholarship based on your portfolio
>>2589218
Yes, that was me. My portfolio was a dozen or so large, detailed illustrations. With financial aid I got close to a free ride but still had to hustle to cover living expenses. The rest of the incoming freshmen lived on debt or mummy's good graces.
>>2587443
Any advice on finding a good local atelier? How does one get involved in the local art community?
>>2589316
Can't speak to the former, but as for getting involved- just do it. Visit gallery openings and rub elbows with other artists. Get your own art up in the city, even if it's just in coffee shops. Many cities have monthly "art walks" centered around a downtown or arts district, participate in those. Do live painting at hip local concerts with a festival vibe. Set up a table or tent at one of those big outdoor art/craft shows that every city has. Find local artist co-ops to join. In short, find out where the art is and go there.
>>2588975
perhaps if you go some feel good "art" school where all you have to do is slap some shit(literally) on a canvas and say that represents the iraq war to get an A, then perhaps you should rethink your prorities
but if you're at a good school like the Art Center or LCAD where the fundamentals are valued and there are many connections in the industry, then you'll probably be in good hands
>>2589368
I was actually hoping to get tips on how to find "where the art is" here in North Central Florida, but you gave me some good ideas and words to Google.
My art is sure as shit not good enough to get up in the city yet (or anywhere for that matter), but how would one go about doing that? Go to the local county or city website and look for job postings for artwork? Walk into a coffee shop and ask if I can hang this here picture?
Art school is good if you don't already have discipline or if you really can't figure out how to learn on your own for some reason. It's also good for making connections in the field if that's the route you want to go (though the quality of those connections will vary depending on the school of course).
I never went to art school but I have 5 friends who did. 2 of them really enjoyed it and thought it was worthwhile. 1 hated it but is decently successful, but he doesn't attribute it to going to art school. The other 2 went and hated it and are now floundering in debt without being able to sell their art very well or get a good job.
>>2589410
>LCAD
>>2589811
look for a local arts council or speak to the owner of the business/gallery.
>>2589840
Alright. That sounds like a good idea. Being a shut-in can make things pretty hard sometimes.
>>2589818
I bet the guy who hated it but is still successful is the most skilled of them all
>>2589003
Obviously cost is a con. But more than that, to quote the person I replied to (>>2588156):
>Peers help by providing a creative and helpful with lots of critiques and cross-pollination, as well as a competitive environment that compels you to git gud. Teachers help with hands on instruction, advice [etc]
But any of those things can be a negative force as much as a positive. If the quality of your work is dependent on the quality of your environment, and the quality of your environment is dependent on the quality of your peers, god help you! Art school students, and teachers, are the same goobers you put up with day in and day out in public. Are those the people you want to entrust your work and future career to?
>>2589016
You have no point. You say "be realistic", okay, realistically, most pro-artists are self taught. Therefore, if all the things that make up a pro artist can be found, most pro artists don't find them in school.
Also I'd like to point out that saying "I need a school to git gud" is defeatist, no different than saying "I need talent to git gud".
>>2589170
I am not >>2587836, >>2587685, or >>2587579. taleof2opinions.jpg
>>2589216
Simply untrue.
To quote Art and Fear
> If ninety-eight percent of our medical students were no longer practicing medicine five years after graduation, there would be a Senate investigation, yet that proportion of art majors are routinely consigned to an early professional death.
>>2589410
Obviously a pedigree art school is going to do you more good than a community college filled with Daddy's money BFAs. And if you can go to one on a scholarship or grant, by all means, go for it. But ultimately all artists are self taught, you are in no one's hands but your own, and if those hands fail you at some expensive art school, guess what, no refunds. If you plan to accrue debt to go to one then I say avoid it (literally) at all costs.
>>2590325
if you select a school without first researching the work created by professors, current students, and alumni, then you're doing it wrong, and you deserve shitty critiques and shitty instruction.
You've still yet to show that attending art school increases one's chances of failure (because this is a ridiculous assumption). To prove your theory, you would need failure rates for those who do not attend school, and this data does not exist.
What is most important is that you are serious and driven, in or out of school.
>>2590325
>You have no point.
Someone listed a bunch of advantages of going to school.
You said those advantages weren't exclusive to school.
I said "be realistic - it's a lot easier to find those things at a school than elsewhere."
You changed the subject to talk about employment prospects.
Fuck off and die.
>>2589170
>butthurt poorfag abstract-tard chump detected
>>2590348
I like how you think someone who is about to go to art school can "research work" as if he actually has an informed opinion about what art is good and what art isn't.
That's not how it works, you mentally addled imbecile.
>>2590733
Furthermore, anyone going to 99.9% of art schools is taking a big risk in receiving flawed teaching and critique from teachers and students.
Art school being bad is not a meme like some morons in this thread suggest, it's a reality. Art schools have by and large not caught up with the professional world and are still in their own little bubbles.
Considering that no decent art position requires education of any kind, it's quite pointless to go waste tens of thousands of dollars, when you could spend a fraction and get a far better education from already proven sources.
ITT: A bunch of art students/grads justifying their shitty life choices.
>>2587844
I work naked at night (full moon or not), covered in mud in a cavelike warehouse. I did not go to school. Nobody thinks I'm a diva, but I do like to be left alone while I work. I comb the fleas out of my fur and put on clothes–a suit usually–when I have openings or meet with my gallerists. I don't think being employed as an artist by someone else sounds very fun. Why not just have a job in an office? Thankfully, the fat checks keep rolling in because collectors buy my stuff. I do think it would have been fun to go to art school. The kids I see when I do the visiting artist things at schools look like they're having a great time. Feels like I missed out on a lot of hanging out. Oh well. Not everyone was a rich kid.
