https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak3Y-RhSVYw
Everything in this video can be taught and practiced. Why do so many art schools refuse to teach the fundamental principles of light, color, and anatomy?
>>2531956
Cuz it's more profitable to be a young adult kindergarten for trust fund darlings.
>>2531956
They do, you just haven't been to art school.
>>2531972
touche
>>2531975
Thanks for being so understanding.
>>2531956
Exactly because you can and will learn on your it on your own. To be truthful, when I look at /ic/ biggest problem I see is not a lack of fundamentals and willingness to put hours in, but simply being passive uncreative shits that can't do anything on their own.
This is what art school actually teaches you - being curious, creative, inquisitive, impressionable.
In art school you work in dozens of different mediums: oil, watercolor, pencil, ink, artistic printing, clay sculpture, wire sculpture, digital, photography/photomanipulation, charcoal, plein air...you go through all of those and more. You also learn about art history, typography, lettering, visual structures and activities and foreign languages.
All different mediums, all different exercises and lessons actually shape you into independent artist, someone who when even left alone will continue to seek more because this is what school taught him.
Someone after art school gains things that /ic/ and internet can't give him. And this is fine, because every fucker can try going through loomis or vilppu and grind figure/gesture drawing till exhaustion, but what he will produce is another uninspired shit that will give him no satisfaction nor money and will most likely make him quit. On the other hand, a guy from art school will be at least in theory an informed individual knowing works of important modern artist and also what people seek in art. He also will be after 5 years of getting critique in his classes from more experienced, working artists.
I'm sick on this constant bashing on art schools by uninformed plebs. And it's funny because I'm venting now here and I'm not even in or after art school, I'm STEM faggot who picked art as hobby.
>>2531993
It's all bull shit. Everything you said can not be taught in a school. "Finding your voice" so to speak is something you do by yourself and only by yourself. If a professor can somehow teach individualism or originality it ceases to be original. Some people are simply more creative than others and that seldomly changes in your lifetime. The basic principles of drawing can be objectively taught, and that's what a schools role should be, teaching facts, what we know to be black and white. Not subjective bull shit. That's not to say that there isn't time for that too, the way you pose your argument makes it sound like you can only teach one or the other. There is plenty of time for both
>>2532003
Except art schools actually teach you drawing principles. Painting too. And sculpture. And mural painting. And dozens of other things. They don't put such autistic emphasis as /ic/ though.
>everything you said can not be taught in a school
Not really. Such environment will certainly jumpstart you and actually create atmosphere where you will actually talk about art and ideas with other people. Where you will pick ideas you would probably not think about while sitting with drawing tablet in front of your PC for 8h, "sifting through reference" and shitposting here for majority of time.
Hell, people here don't even do still lives or plein air. They don't seem to interact with any sort of reality and are unwilling to act. Why would you download another GB of videos and art books when you are unwilling to challenge your creativity or don't know how?
Putting yourself into artistic mindest isn't subjective bullshit. I see it here, I see how people are critical and passive-agressive, but not actually analytical. Don't think about opportunities or in what direction they could go. They never think about narrative of their paintings, rarely about design.
>>2531993
You know people will still don't get what you said.
They can't understand what a creative and inspiring ambient can give to them. They don't leave their homes anyway.
For them, all the studios could be your white walls cubicle Call Center offices. They just don't get it.
And it was not once I've saw a thread here about a motherfucker that copy and draw very well but can't create shit from his mind. For me there's no point. Take photos instead.
>>2531993
Yeah, the world is full of incompetent people and those are the ones who complain about everything. Competent people can do pretty much anything and learn anything because they aren't held back by themselves.
>>2532023
How do we help those people, man? How do we better the world?
>>2531956
This meme should tell you.
Basically the reason is apathy. Nobody wants to learn. They just want praise.
>>2531993
>This is what art school actually teaches you - being curious, creative, inquisitive, impressionable.
A lot of people will shit on you for saying so, but this is true.
I went to overly "artsy fartsy" art school with an amazing lack of fundamental training. However, they DID succeed in teaching people to be more creative. In other words, they teach you how to better respond to a problem/prompt through research and exploration in order to make original work that has real depth to it and avoids obvious approaches.
Of course, most people who I graduated with (in 2013) are now doing non-art related work, because they didn't put in the individual study needed to learn the fundamentals of their mediums.
You need both creativity AND skill to have the best chance of success. Grinding fundamentals will only get you so far if you aren't capable of responding to a problem in a creative and original fashion.
>>2532031
That is definitely true, but as someone who used to be like that, I realized the praise just felt shallow without any of the work being put into it. Cheating in games is the same way. As a result, I enjoy the journey now as I'm working with my own hands to become good. I still see other people who want praise without learning and it's frustrating really because you never know when they'll come to the same realization as I did. To achieve something with your own hands no matter how small is greater than anything else.
>>2531993
People also think schools are for jobs, but really you can go just to learn.
>>2532031
As the creator of the original image I think it looks much better organized horizontally like you have it there than the "top to bottom" one I created, but the reason I had it the way I did was so that users could read it without having to open the image in its own tab (which I believed many people wouldn't take the extra effort to do, no matter how minimal it might otherwise be)
>>2532046
If you go to a boutique art school and spend $40,000 annually "just to learn" you're either rich or insane; generally what I've found is that it's pure ignorance on the part of both the student and their parents whom are led to believe that, generally speaking, art schools have something tangible to offer their students but more often than not this isn't the case.
Budding artists need to REJECT these schools and their way of teaching in mass or they will continue to be abused and left destitute. There is no way around it. Seek out reasonably-priced ateliers, apprenticeships, and online courses provided by industry professionals and stop giving these crooks excuses for what they've done and continue to do.
I went to art school. It was stupid. They didn't teach anything there. And it was supposed to be one of the better art schools in the USA. Luckily it was very cheap compared to RISD and whatnot. But yeah. Nobody graduated able to compose a picture worth a damn. Their music department was much better, they actually taught stuff there.
>>2532066
It's like you didn't even read the thread.
School is what you make of it to learn. It's not passive. You have to actively go out and learn.
>>2531956
Alot of schools are a business first and education second so it isnt unusual to see them pandering
>>2532022
it's a big assumption to say people on /ic/ don't challenge themselves. I see artists here consistently making strides to better hone their skills and try new techniques. of course there are shit posters and pessimists but I still see realistic optimism on this board through the shit. and contrary to art school people here are willing to tell me when something i do needs a lot of work. the most exhausting, counter-productive part of all my art classes is the critiques. I don't know about your school but when a student presents a piece that is complete 5th grader drawing dog shit, the class and teacher are completely silent. theyll struggle to say a couple things they like about it but ultimately in the end that student will never know what he needs to improve or how to make his ideas come to life. I see people all the time on this board and in school wonder why they still aren't "making it" as artists, and instead of telling them point for point how they are lacking they basically tell them to wait, and keep doing what they are doing
>>2532077
it's people like you that make me believe that I could build and run my own expensive bullshit art school with zero consequences
>>2531993
lol
>>2531956
I don't understand, are you saying that bear painting is good?
>>2532077
Young artists don't know what they don't know. It is up to teachers to assess the student and direct them towards relevant knowledge, studies, techniques, etc. Identify weak points and instruct them how to overcome. You can "actively go out and learn" without school. And you will for the rest of your life as an artist. The problem is young artists do not know what to learn and will end up spinning their wheels. This was more an issue when I was in school, now with the internet it is easier to find information. All the more reason to discard art school, though. Unless they get their shit together and start competing with the free/cheap resources available now. I don't know why art teachers are so useless. My first thought was maybe it has something to do with accreditation, and the for-profit nature of schools causing colleges to become bloated scams. But like I said, I learned a lot in music school. So I don't know what art school's excuse is.
>>2532202
I have come to the conclusion that most teachers in these schools don't actually know how to teach or be skilled artists themselves. Think about it, all those students /ic/ talks about leaving college with a degree and little to no actual ability to render a professional painting or artistic work, where do they go? back to the fuckin school that accepted their shit as art in the first place, to teach. think about how many teachers whose personal work has been incredibly underwhelming or downright terrible
>>2531956
Norway greatest living painter, Odd Nerdrum, has more or less been persecuted by the art community in Norway because he paints in the style of the old masters.
He was also pushed out of his job as a teacher at a Norwegian art academy when he complained about the lack of traditional and figure drawing classes.
It really is batshit insane. Modern art school don't teach people to draw or paint. They teach people to "express themselves" without giving them the skills to do so, and their works usually boil down to cobbling something together and attributing some left-wing message to it.
>>2532244
http://www.artcyclopedia.com/feature-2004-02.html
Forgot the link.
>>2532244
See and that's the beauty of learning these techniques, it doesn't make you a slave to that style. You can do whatever you want with them. A carpenter can build whatever house he wants if he knows how to build a fucking house in the first place
>>2532180
post your work
>>2532244
>Odd Nerdrum, has more or less been persecuted by the art community in Norway because he paints in the style of the old masters.
I thought it was more the fact he painted hermaphrodites, people pissing and shitting in graphic detail, and self portraits with massive boners and stuff. He intentionally paints shock value subject matter. He also didn't pay taxes on millions of dollars worth of paintings. I really doubt all the flack he's received is because "he paints in the style of the old masters".
>>2533122
Voice of reason
>>2533122
wow what a narcissistic fuck, look at the survey on this guys website
>>2531993
> And it's funny because I'm venting now here and I'm not even in or after art school, I'm STEM faggot who picked art as hobby.
So you're making claims about art school, but you've never been to one in the capacity of an art student? Interesting.
Why should anyone listen to you?
I went to art school on a full scholarship. I went because of all the reasons you listed for what art school was "really" supposed to do. I've been told I was creative and skilled in art my whole life. I thought it would be a natural fit, going to school for art. I was so bright-eyed at the prospect of learning more! Art school teaches you none of what you mentioned. It claims that it will, but it never actually does. Art school taught me that you can't teach people to be creative, you can only put them in situations that require them to be that way. And even then, very rarely do they appreciate how creative what they just did really was. So often would I be TA'ing a class and have to explain to students that something they just did was in fact, "creative", because they couldn't tell and kept whining about how un-creative they were. Most of the students were like this- hopeless. Art schools as a situation almost never effectively simulate the need for students to actually be creative. They end up being expensive, drug-infused daycare centers. The most creative people in my classes were the ones who were already creative when they got there. The school just got to take credit for it when they left. They didn't get anything out of the art school except connections to other creative people from other art schools, a big fat bill, and a shiny new certificate saying "Good Job! You spent all of your parent's retirement fund!".
So please, there are a lot of "uninformed plebs" here, most of which are just parroting secondary sources, but take it from me, as a primary source, that you're wrong about art school. It's only worth it for the connections, and only if you can afford it.
>>2533669
Post art or something credible. Who would believe you from just this?
>>2533671
>Who would believe you from this?
Are you the the STEM major?
>>2533671
I hope you can appreciate the pickle you've put us into- right? You're attempting to invalidate my first-hand experience with an art school, by asking me to provide evidence for my claims- which you are entitled to do- but, to be clear, it isn't a counter-argument in and on itself, asking me for evidence. Do you want me to go scan my acceptance letter with the dollar amount they gave me? Do you want me to reveal the school I went to? What type of art I make? I've worked in many frameworks. I spent most of my time when I was at art school either in the library or in the studio. I was a studio rat. When I wasn't working, I was talking to the other students about art to see what their opinions were, or TAing, or at a museum, or in a gallery. I lived and breathed art. My point is that you can do this without going to art school. I learned most of the important lessons of my life about art outside of the classroom- which is the only thing you're really paying for when you go to an art school.
As a STEM major, maybe you can relate more to this example. Pick something that you're passionate about, write down some questions you have about the serious problems in that subject that you're interested in, and then after trying to answer them yourself, write some letters to faculty who are doing research in the field you're interested in. Since I've done this already, and know the answer, I'm not going to say whether or not it works, but for the sake of experiment, try to hand-write some letters, and send them to said faculty who research in the field you are enthusiastic about. Do you think they will respond? Did you have to enroll in the school to send them the letter? We're assuming you're not asking trivial questions.
It's the same for art. You don't have to go to school to make art and interact with people who are passionate about art and make it. You just have to connect with them by showing that you are genuinely interested in what you are doing.
>>2531993
yeah but thats all fine art stuff. most these people should just go to study animation cause it seems like the majority interest here.
>>2532047
lol not everyone who gos to art school wants to be a working artist, there's other related fields of work.
Art schools taught you properly no one would go, because it takes years & a lot of hard work to 'git Gud.'
I just don't understand why people continue to defend art school. It is factually a scam. They know the statistics and they know that nothing in their programs actually prepare you for professional work and they know they can get away with it every year. I'd say it's the students fault but I think it's more a mixture of the parents and kids. Parents want their kids to go to college and kids want to go for something fun. So the demand is high and the schools are extremely willing to give them what they want
>>2533884
>It is factually a scam
Depends a lot on the specific school and program. People coming out of ACCD will almost be guaranteed a job.
>>2531956
Art School is cool because its like the old medieval patronage. Except fucking worse but still.
You go into about 50k debt to have the rare GIFT to experience 4 straight years to do nothing but practice your art, learn, meet people with similar interests, find new and different art works you'd never consider practicing and possibly friend some people and grow up your theories and become a better human being by studying humanities and math/science.
Since you have no job you can spend 10 hours a day doing art and studying, 4 partying and hopefully having some good times i.e. sex times and maybe even doing a study abroad to Italy.
You now popped your sex and international travel cherries, if you were meant for this work, probably showed work at a gallery, got a cool internship at some video game company or whatever and/or famous art museum showing people art.
Contrast this with doing it all online for free. You get a job at McDonalds or whatever, work for room/board, have about 4 hours a day to do art, except you are also brokeass tired doing it.
You maybe get good enough to know Illustrator really well and do some freelance Graphic Design but no internship without school and your skills won't be good enough to make a Patreon probably so pretty thin gruel for wages.
Through college you could acquire a career, solo its really unknown. Solo might be worth saving 50k for a studio/setup/ paints or computers but might be expensive enough to be more than college in the end.
Now you ended up still in some light debt but with zero connections and worse skills. Pretty much relegated to freelance thanks to the "3 Years Experience" fucked up corporate culture we have today.
Art School sucks but it might still be better than the alternative of languishing in parents house and having no fun or friends.
>>2533927
>Since you have no job you can spend 10 hours a day..
You can have no job and spend 10 hours a day doing art and studying from home, better yet, you can get a part time job and earn a wage so that by the time your art improves (or by the time you give up) you'll have actually accrued capital instead starting your adult life burdened by debt.
>You get a job at McDonalds or whatever, work for room/board, have about 4 hours a day to do art, except you are also brokeass tired doing it.
Ideally you aren't forced out into a terrible financial situation right out of highschool like burying yourself in a debt you may never really recover from (even if you get your "dream job" doing storyboards for Steven Universe). There is absolutely nothing wrong with staying home and getting a 20/hr a week Job while learning in lieu of attending some parasitical institution.
>Through college you could acquire a career, solo its really unknown.
More people that work as artists do not have an arts degree than those that do
>Solo might be worth saving 50k for a studio/setup/ paints or computers but might be expensive enough to be more than college
A Wacom Cintiq 27HD at present is among the single most expensive and practical "art supplies" you can buy (that isn't something stupid like a "historically significant" "artisan pen" or something) and it costs well under $3,000. A computer to do whatever you could conceivably want to do with that device costs even less.
There is no way you could come anywhere near spending the $40,000 annually that many art schools ask of their students learning on your own.
>Art School sucks but it might still be better than the alternative of languishing in parents house and having no fun or friends.
There is nothing keeping you in your house and friendless. Your entire post is riddled with false dichotomies.
>>2533954
>$15,000
Where is that?
>>2533955
I don't know about you, but as someone who went to art school having connections to teachers and a multitude of friends was worth the money. I don't know where you live, but before art school I was not surrounded by artists. And I mean actual career artists, not lazy hobbyists sitting around drawing cool characters with dragon swords once a week.
Additionally, most of the resources I've ever come across from my professors I've had a huge amount of difficulty finding on my own. And I don't mean fucking loomis and vilippu.
>>2533973
What kind of resources do you mean then friend?
>>2533956
In the midwestern U.S. a studio apartment costs around $700 monthly, and with many other costs considered (many of which would not be lumped in with a university's debt, like food) I figured $15k annually was a fair estimate. I removed that portion of the post because it wouldn't be topical or possible for everybody nor would it necessarily be desirable anyway (though I've heard of anons musing about the idea on this board).
There is a lot you could hypothetically do with the tens of thousands of dollars (+interest) that you'd otherwise spend on art school, it should be the very, very last resort. If you're attending art school before having given it your all on your own for at least 3-5 years you're making a grave mistake.
>>2533973
>I don't know about you, but as someone who went to art school having connections to teachers and a multitude of friends was worth the money.
Great. Just be sure to get back to us in 8 years when you finally pay off your loan's interest and start moving onto the principal and let us know if you still think it was worth it.
I am lucky enough to attend an atelier and have thus far spent a paltry $170 for 10 weeks of instructed still life/life drawing. I could spend $8,000 for a full year but I can't afford it and am under no expectation or obligation to take out vast amounts of art to do so unlike with a university.
It's very informal, I get to hang out and talk to the full time students when I'm not in class, many of whom are my age or younger, and I really get the "university experience" delivered in a practical and ethical manner. This is how art school "should be".
Unfortunately ateliers are fairly narrow in focus. There's nothing about animation or typography, graphic design and so on, but thankfully applied realism does have a lot of overlap with many other disciplines and genres.
>And I mean actual career artists, not lazy hobbyists sitting around drawing cool characters with dragon swords once a week.
That's nice. Please post your work so we can see the practical value that being surrounded by 'actual career artists' and having presumably spent tens of thousands of dollars has impressed on you.
In exchange this is the first cast I've done. It's not spectacular by any means, but I don't have any pretentions of being anything other than an amateur, myself.
>>2534004
>take out vast amounts of art
It's late; I meant "take on vast amounts of debt" in case anyone was confused by that statement
>>2534004
>Unfortunately ateliers are fairly narrow in focus
>Unfortunately
When are we going to stop apologizing for having a narrow focus when it comes to art? When are people going to see the benefit of having a narrow focus? You can actually develop one skill at a time, and master it, rather than merely be exposed to many things and master none of them.
>>2531956
Some still do with illustration programs, since training in representational art is kind of necessary. Go with illustration if you want fundamentals lobbed at you all the way until graduation.
>>2534095
I was in the illustration department at my school when I went through art school. There was not much focus on fundamentals. Most of the teachers were working in editorial illustration, which tends to have a naive style and a focus on the idea and on creating an immediate impact to grab the viewer's attention. So things like perspective and anatomy are ignored. The only composition-related teaching was to not create tangents.
>>2534085
The availability of multiple fields of study does not imply that a student is obligated to study all of them at once or even more than one of them, it would merely provide opportunities where there currently are none.
I'm not apologizing, rather I am lamenting the fact that while an atelier-style program is the best means of learning art short of an apprenticeship, the almost exclusive focus on observational classical realism means that people whom for example are more interested in imaginative art and animation will still have to do much of their studying on their own. There is no atelier-style program for animation I'm aware of besides maybe Steven Silver's hollowed out boxing gym in california, so if you'd prefer the kind of intimate personal instruction an atelier program affords in any subject other than classical realism and maybe illustration you're mostly out of luck.
Thankfully as I said there is a lot of overlap, but it's something worth mentioning.
>>2532180
Dude worked for 20 years in disney, worked on mulan, lion king, all the big ones.
Not good.
Fucking kekked to death-
The fact that you enjoy alien headed women getting fucked by tentacles doesnt mean everyone in the world lacks taste you furry cuck
>>2534366
I assume OP's pic is from Aaron Blaise? That dude fucking loves bears
>>2534367
I don't know why I bothered asking without clicking on the video, shake my damn head family man
>>2534366
It's painted ok but it's a bear in a sunset. Pure kitsch.
>>2534376
There isn't anything left that isn't kitsch or couldn't be described as such. Everythings' been done; do what you want and get over yourself and your yiddish word, cunt.
>>2534381
I don't think 'kitsch' has anything to do with originality really. It just means lowbrow. And is often used to mean "cheesy". Both meanings apply to the bear painting. It's sappy. And it isn't telling any sort of story or anything. It's just a bear in a sunset. Tasteless and uninteresting. It was probably just an exercise/sketch, so whatever, it's fine. But nothing to get a boner over and use as an example of something to strive for lol.
>>2534386
OKAY MICHELANGELO, THANKS FOR BLESSING US WITH YOUR PRESENCE
>>2534390
He's right though
>>2534095
Yeah actually right before I dropped out I had taken a stroll in the architecture and drafting building where they teach illustration, and I saw their work on the walls. I was so angry that the quality of these drawings far exceeded any shit collages or finger paintings we were making over in the art building. They were all just basic figures and objects like an old man, a log, and a skull but they were super detailed and beautiful. I was mad that I was duped into believing that fine arts was the major to take if I wanted to learn illustration
>>2534398
>I was mad that I was duped into believing that fine arts was the major to take if I wanted to learn illustration
how did you not see that coming?
>>2534386
Fair enough, but that kind of sardonic lens can be applied to just about anything and often is. It gets tiresome.
John Berkey's paintings are just spaceships, Frazetta's paintings are just barbarians, Syd Mead paints vehicles, buildings etc. I'm not going to let a silly jew word shame me for appreciating a certain type of art, I'd feel the same way if I really liked paintings of bears or whatever. Low-brow and proud, nigga, particularly given what's considered truly High-brow these days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY
>>2534400
How was i supposed to know that there were illustration classes? I was a fine arts major. I assumed that anything reminiscent of such class would be made aware to me. I had no idea and no one around me did either. I spent all class period complaining to teachers and other students that we don't learn how to draw or render anything in these art classes. They never thought to mention that the building right next to us teaches everything I wanted
>>2534408
All those people you named treated those low brow subjects with a lot of care and good taste. They are by no means kitschy. If you look at many of their contemporaries you quickly realize what kitsch is.
I'm a huge proponent of being self taught, but the hatred of Art school some of you here seem to have is seriously fucking irrational.
>>2534416
>irrational
how bout I jam a $40 paintbrush in your eye!!!!
I paint brush that i was told to buy but never used cause my teacher made us paint with twigs and leaves we found in the woods instead
This is why I failed
>>2534420
If it makes you feel better I was in an illustration program and we drew with twigs and leaves dipped in ink
>>2534423
Hah we did this for a bit in the illustration program I was in as well.
>>2534408
Berkey, Frazetta, and Syd Mead were all great designers with a great sense for composition.
The bear painting is not well designed/composed. It's all shot from a straight side view. Flat. And the three objects are arranged neatly spaced out with no overlaps. Bear. Tree. Moon. durrrrrrrrrrr
>>2534397
Thankfully your weeb opinion doesnt matter.
>>2534416
>irrational
No, it's really not. These schools, particularly the ones that dupe young adults into thinking that they could be the next degenerate artist extraordinaire, have seen thousands of students come and go, have left nearly all of them in poverty and they're all very well aware of that fact. Defending the art school status quo is what's irrational and needs to stop. Things won't change for the better without a mass rejection of these borderline criminal institutions. That's what needs to happen and what hopefully will happen as more people become educated about the consequences a $40,000 a year art education has for 90% of its graduating students.
>>2534457
I'm not defending the schools that are outright scams. There are still plenty of decent school out there and they have plenty to offer.
>>2534477
too add to my post: Is it really that hard to separate the scam schools from the good ones? Do you really feel the need to lump all schools into a single pile?
>>2534457
that screenshot says everything I feel
>>2534479
A quick skim of the graduating class' work and the work of the professors is usually all it takes to separate the good from bad. Unfortunately most people don't bother even checking this.
>>2534479
the very idea of art school is a waste. No school, even calarts, is worth the money for what they give you
so I don't understand the difference between illustration and fine art. whats the point of fine art?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPQ-8Kty8X4
>>2534484
"worth the money" Oh look, it's this meme again. "Worth the money" has a different meaning for different people
>>2534502
Illustration is commercial. A client approaches an artist to commission an artwork that will be used in conjunction with some sort of product (as advertising/explanation/decoration etc). Typically it will be mass produced and the some degree of rights to the artwork are bought.
Fine art is the opposite process in which an artist creates artwork first. Then buyers can come and purchase one that has already been made. They will then usually be interested in the original piece and not the rights since they won't be reproducing it. Traditionally this is seen as "purer" than illustration since the artist can in theory paint the subjects and style they want rather than being dictated by a commercial market. In practice though fine artists are just as caught up in trends and styles and subject matters of the day if they want to be able to sell what they make.
The line between fine art and illustration has blurred a lot in the last century though as fine artists and illustrators each took things from each other so that there is not necessarily a stylistic or visual difference between the two. Furthermore, many artists work in both fine art and illustration either at the same time or alternating at various points in their career.
Technically any personal piece you paint is "fine art" since there is no client involved. Though digital painting has yet to become fully accepted/established in the field of fine art since the lack of a physical original means it has no intrinsic value.
>>2534479
It's a combination of ignorance on behalf of the students and their parents, and the unethical screening practices (or lack thereof) of these schools that often either allow complete beginners entry or largely promote art that has no objective standards of measure to begin with. Blaming the students alone is victim-blaming (it's not like they're the ones getting $40,000 a year funneled into their bank accounts), but blaming the schools alone removes all responsibility from the student. The students however are often pressured by their parents into going to college right out of highschool "like they did" and in this state of duress a poor decision brought on by assumptions and wishful thinking projected onto otherwise worthless schools is apt to be made. Parents and students need to be better equipped to make an educated decision, because it's an incredibly important one.
>>2534504
Willfully living as a debt slave and tithed a large percentage of your wage for the next 30 years for the four-year "experience" of an "authentic art school" is impractical and insanely foolish by any measure, unless you're loaded to begin with. In that case do whatever you want, the rest of us however would do very well to walk away because the numbers simply don't add up.
>>2534521
Yep. Expecting an 18 year old to know what they want to do with their life is retarded. All they know is that they have an interest in art. Their taste isn't yet developed. They don't know what is good or bad, what to look for, what questions to ask, etc. At least that was my situation. I went off to college in 2001. Conceptart.org wasn't even started yet. I didn't have any art books or anything. Didn't know any artists names. I just drew naively, inspired by Star Wars and Zelda and shit. Maybe kids these days have more of a clue.
>>2534504
no it doesn't
>>2534516
so essentially I should have taken classes in illustration so I could create the fine art I wanted to create. Since fine art classes basically teach you how to find your voice, not actually teach you how to produce your art
>>2534521
I can't help but feel that high school art teachers can share some of the blame as well
>>2534544
Did you make it
>>2534483
Cause students are dumb and they believe they have the authority to determine what's good and bad
>>2534544
People that don't have an intimate understanding of what makes art look professional let alone "good" are just not prepared to make these kinds of decisions as a consequence, and this plays right into the art schools' hands. I hear anecdotes on /ic/ all the time about how great many of us all thought we were until we actually sat down and looked at real professional work with a deeper understanding that only comes with a lot of personal study. Doting parents and friends exacerbate this problem with their misguided, but well-intentioned unconditional approval and encouragement.
Even a good school is a waste for a lot of people, people that only have a passing interest in art and just decided to try on a whim don't belong in these places, the schools know this seeing tons of students come and go as they do, but they certainly can't refuse their money, even if it means essentially saving their life in the process.
>>2531960
Trust fund darlings and hippy vegans that want to do something that seems edgy instead of getting a job.
Kinda sucks because I really want that piece of paper but hate art school and the people who attend.
>>2531956
Oh it's digital "art" I take back my comments..
Vegan hippies are not stupid enough to bother with this crap.
>>2531993
Most art students go work in a cafe after graduating art school and take part in once exhibition a year if that.
Of course there are exceptions but that's how it is for most of them.
>>2534908
Made it past Pluto, baby. I'm kind of a big deal.
>>2532022
>Such environment will certainly jumpstart you and actually create atmosphere where you will actually talk about art and ideas with other people.
I did it for a year and all people talked about was getting high on drugs and being vegan...
There was a tattoo artists who went too who wanted to expand her interest and knowledge of fine art beyond tattooing because "there is more to art than just tattoos".
Her and I would often bitch about how annoying everyone is.
She dropped out because she couldn't stand the shitty environment.
>>2532023
But it's more of a talk about drugs and being vegan enviroment,,, of and feminism..
Rarely do people at art school actually talk about art, unless with the teachers.
>>2532047
I agree with this but it would have more credibility if they were not ALL digital artists.
Some variety would be good.
>>2532056
Manga drawer detected.
>>2532202
Who cares about some super edgy guy with no success in his whole career critiquing your work?
>>2532244
Thanks for that information, this made coming to /ic/ today totally worth it.
Thank you.
>>2533237
>Waaah it doesn't say sakimichan nerd "art"
>>2533669
Yes but most of the connections you make are with untalented vegan hippies who post things on FB such as
"I am annoyed at all these posers saying they love David Bowie after he died, go back to Justin Bieber"
I am not even making this up.
>>2533811
>there's other related fields of work.
Lol
>>2535343
Shane Glines, Bruce Timm, and Stephen Silver aren't primarily digital artists. I believe with the exception of Noah Bradley and Clint Cearley most of those men primarily work in traditional-but may work in digital as a necessity to their jobs.
Off the top of my head Rob Liefeld is another untrained working artist who works in traditional mediums exclusively as far as I'm aware, but I didn't include him because of what a controversial figure he is with the oft-ridiculous anatomy, tracing, and pouches he's so well known for.
The real take away from the picture isn't the specific artists cited, many of whom are among the top men in their field, but the census numbers provided by the "Artists Report Back" document that shows that more untrained artists work as artists than those that do by a substantial margin. While the relative skill that many of these men exhibit might be fairly exceptional, the phenomenon of them having found work in their chosen industry without having attended school is actually rather ordinary.
>>2533927
I am going to fix this.
>Art School is cool because its like the old medieval patronage. Except fucking worse but still.
You go into about 50k debt to have the rare GIFT to experience 4 straight years to do nothing but listen to bullshit that barely teaches you anything, learn, meet vegans with little interest in art, find new and different art works you'd never consider practicing and possibly friend some people and hear about drugs and being a vegan feminist and become a worse human by being exposed to vegan and feminist propaganda.
Since you have no job you can spend 10 hours a day doing art and studying, 4 partying and hopefully having some good times i.e. sex times and maybe even doing a study abroad to Italy.
You now popped your sex and international
>some video game company or whatever and/or famous art museum showing people art.
Oh you are talking about studying games not fine art..
>You maybe get good enough to know Illustrator really well and do some freelance Graphic Design but no internship without school and your skills won't be good enough to make a Patreon probably so pretty thin gruel for wages.
You are talking about studying graphic design not fine art
>Through college you could acquire a career, solo its really unknown. Solo might be worth saving 50k for a studio/setup/ paints or computers but might be expensive enough to be more than college in the end.
>Now you ended up still in some light debt but with zero connections and worse skills. Pretty much relegated to freelance thanks to the "3 Years Experience" fucked up corporate culture we have today.
>Art School sucks but it might still be better than the alternative of languishing in parents house and having no fun or friends.
>>2533973
Are you a vegan?
>>2534376
It's not painted at all it's digital "art".
>>2535361
He's not entirely mistaken. For example, would you call Glenn Vilppu an artist or an educator? I guess it depends on what he puts on his tax forms, himself. A good portion of art school grads go on to work as "educators" but that really doesn't tell us much about what they're teaching, whether it's art related and so on.
>>2534413
> spent all class period complaining to teachers and other students that we don't learn how to draw or render anything in these art classes
I stopped doing this because I got told to stfu but yeah I know that feel.
>>2534420
Was this tafe you went to?
That was just a beginning exercise...
You must not have staid long... I am saying this as someone who is anti art school.
>>2534427
Shut up and draw some crappy poorly illustrated manga you know nothing fuck head.
>>2535346
I'm not a 'manga drawer' and that wouldn't be a rebuttal to what I'd said if I was, my family member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
>>2534516
You are getting illustration and graphic design mixed up.
Fine art can be commission work too... Most of the great renaissance paintings were done as commissions.
>>2534574
This is correct.
>>2535364
Self trained not untrained.
>>2535382
>That wouldn't be a rebuttal if I was.
Only a manga drawer would say this.
>>2535389
You know what I meant!
>>2535390
I already posted my work in this thread; how about you post yours?
>>2535392
Getting into stupid arguments on the internet does not reflect well upon me as an artist.
Hence why I vent my frustrations here instead of facebook.
>>2535397
Fair enough
i bump this 2bh
>>2535397
thats some pretentious ass shit man
>>2534004
>but I don't have any pretentions of being anything other than an amateur
and so amateur you will stay because no one wants a drawing of a cast, duh
>>2535960
this is no joke, one of my favorite pass times is watching artists burn their shit to the ground on facebook. All of them idiots I make a point to avoid in person. even a smile and hello can be detrimental to me if someone saw.
also i don't use facebook personally for this reason.
