Yes, that spark. So, we're here to discuss the existence or lack of natural born talent. I want every resource, every study, anything pertaining to that of someone having the ability to learn how to draw and at an abnormally fast pace. All of my art teachers have told me that this is true, some people are naturally better at art for no specific reason. Is hard work nothing compared to that of something with natural born talent? Or is there still hope for all of us normal people who have a decent work ethic?
It's like a person born with naturally long legs. Will that give them some advantage over other runners? yes. Will they still need to work hard, train their muscles, and put in the effort to improve? yeah.
Like the runner with the longer legs, some people just pick up and understand aesthetics/art concepts quicker than others. But it's not like the guy with the shorter legs can't go the same distance, it may take him a little longer, or if he has greater determination that the one with the natural advantage, he may even keep pace.
>tfw i don't have "The Spark"
;_;
There is kind of a spark. I think that for everyone, there is a different point of diminishing returns. People that have the spark hit that point quite early, and normally begin to stagnate, whereas people that lack the spark are likely to take longer. The thing is, people without the spark are actually more likely to get farther, in this day and age. Now, because of the time it takes to develop those skills, they have the patience and drive to keep working past the point of diminishing returns that someone with the spark just doesn't normally have, with exceptions like Kim Jing Gi. I think we should bring back the arts to a level on par with the sciences. In the past, those we'd consider to "have the spark" were raised early on, or taught themselves early on, how to draw. When the brain is malleable and still forming in early childhood, a kid that draws a lot forms permanent pathways that create the basis for form and perspective, the fundementals that a lot of adults take years to learn. Those pathways, if nurtured, become the spark.
>>2470093
I notice a lot of people who are talented naturally have the double
Palmaris longus muscle.
I'm pretty sure it's essential for hand control.
>>2470093
Not all men are created equal, genetics exist, so of course some people are going to be more or less 'talented' than others. That being said, nobody is born good at art.
From my experiance its really just a case of smarter people learn faster. Thats it. A smarter person will actively seek out knowledge and solutions (finding things like /ic/ and loomis, they find answers and direction). A more intelligent person will also solve the problems they encounter faster... In my opinion the biggest illusion of natural born talent/prodigies just comes from the fact that some children grow up consuming more art than others(through games/anime whatever) and even draw nonstop throughout their childhoods. A person who started drawing 5 hours a day at 8 has 10 years experiance over somebody who starts at 18.
>tldr
Be smart and start early or it'll take a long time to git gud
>>2470093
this meme needs to die 2bh
>>2470093
My thought process has always been, those who want to draw will draw. If you have an interest in drawing then do it and whatever happens will happen. I don't understand the whole Pokemon master mindset people have when they look into the future of their art. In short, who cares?
Every good artist has good hand control. Hand control is the only factor which is beyond us. You can't train it unless you have a double Palmaris Longus Muscle. Don't believe me? Ask your favorite artist whoever it may be.
Glenn Vilppu has a double palmaris. He's the OP pic. I have it too, and so does everyone who is better than at least 50% of i/c.
It has become very clear that we've mis-identified the spark as something within us, but it's clear our body is the real limit.
So I ask you I/C. Do you have it? Do you have the ligameme?
So. It does exist, it's not a get outta jail free card in the sense that they still need to work hard, and even if they do have the spark it's not like hard work and determination won't pass them. Oh, and starting at a young age is important.
I knew all of this already. But, I feel as though something not quite right about this whole thing. Would everyone benefit from believing they didn't have the spark?
This is my third sketch since I took a drawing class in highschool 3.5 years ago. Do I have the spark, or the Dunning Kruger?
>>2470163
you have autism
>>2470163
looks like you dont have the ligameme.
>>2470104
Dumb analogy, runners with shorter legs are typically faster.
>>2470177
Or thinking I have natural talent. Both are probably frowned upon.
>>2470093
Art is going to be dead for a long time people are to lazy nothing bout talent
Is this palmaris longus thing true? How do i know if i have it?
I just realised that for the first time in my life I have something desirable on my body.
Now I understand why I was so quick at learning how to draw when I was a kid, and why it's so easy for me to draw perfectly straight lines.
The spark is autism, and we all have it
>>2470163
You have the rare variant of a triple palmaris longus, that just makes you suck harder instead.
>>2470093
http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overrated-Separates-World-Class-Performers/dp/1591842948
good read, should answer all your question
>>2470148
> every good artist has good hand control
Sounds like an excuse to me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NccGjyKSYFs
>>2470148
And more excuses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mtxh_ERVUU
Did i pick it up faster than other kids? Yes. But i also spent more time drawing while others were outside playing. I spent hours drawing and entered drawing competitions too.
If there is a spark, it becomes irrelevant by the time you're in 7th grade. Just like any other skills, the hundreds of hours you spend refining your mental tool set overshadows minor physical advantages
>>2470093
It's pointless talking about this because idiots who believe in "just world" gobbledigook will deny the existence of random genetic talent until the day they die.
>>2470375
mouth and foot painting organisations sounds like a disease.
Anyone updated to 1.5? How is the experience? Any good?
>>2470118
and you'd be right!
>>2470148
wasn't aware this was a thing. not me but mine is like pic related 2 in the right and 1 in the left and I'm right hand dominate.
This is actually a really motivational doc on making it. "The Spark" is actually one of the best memes in recent years. Its what motivates people to go to extreme lengths and make sacrifices in order to master their craft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLouxprAHtQ
>>2470148
I thought everyone had that. I thought it was normal. Now that I look at it, I see three on my left wrist while theres only two on my right. If I switch hands will I be unstoppable?
>>2470148
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmaris_longus_muscle
You're full of shit.
>>2470538
>taking anything nose faggot says seriously
you dun goofed
>>2470483
That's because you use your right and left hand for different tasks -> different muscles become stronger.
>>2470148
> ligameme
What you're talking about is a tendon. A tendon. Something anyone who's even touched an anatomy book will know the difference between a tendon and a ligament. Ligaments increase the strength of joints, like your ACL, PCL, UCL and RCL. Tendons run from the muscle belly to the distal insertion point,
What you're looking at is a tendon, and a useless one at that. Only one of them is from Palmaris Longus, and the one immediately above it is from the Flexor Carpi Radialis, one of the gross flexors of the wrist. Palmaris Longus is such a useless muscle that it can be safely cut out of the forearm and used for tendon grafts, and all it does is increase the strength of wrist flexion, not grip, in a negligible way.
Neither of those muscles have anything to do with fine finger control, unlike the deep finger flexors.
Neither of those muscles have anything to do with dexterity, unlike the intrinsic muscles of the hand.
All you're doing is getting people like >>2470483 riled up about meaningless bullshit and negatively impacting the board.
Please reconsider what you're doing here if all you want to do is post garbage that's demonstrably false.
>>2470574
fuck you don't tell me I'm not special
>>2470578
You're not special. Nobody on this board is. But you know what? You can BE special if you stop worrying about whether or not you've got a useless piece of meat in your arm and start working.
Get your hours up.
Post in the drawthread or the beginner thread if you're not quite there yet.
Write down the crits you get.
Integrate them.
Analyse your own work.
Fucking do SOMETHING more productive than sit around here talking about some stupid muscle in your arm, because at the end of the day all you'll be using it to do is to circlejerk more efficiently while other people more motivated and hard-working than you are will leave you behind.
You're not special.
How you deal with it is up to you.
>>2470574
t-the s-spark was a l-lie D: !??
>>2470093
Is this shit all you people talk about?
It's an appealing idea, isn't it? Having all of the skill without putting in half the effort.
Fuck all of you.
If we agree that some people are more intelligent than others it seems retarded that this doesn't translate to art.
Smart person and dumb person do exact same art exercises for 8 hours:
Smart person spots patterns, identifies weaknesses, tries to learn
Dumb person does the exercise again and again and tries to brute force it.
Both will get there eventually, which one will get there faster?
Not to mention some people just find certain aspects of art more intuitive than others, make a thread on what fundamental people find easy or hard and you'll get different answers. If you agree that, but you insist "yeah but it all balances out in the end and comes out as a wash!" you're delusional.
>It's another "prove to me that talent is/isn't real" thread
If only you faggots stressed about your art as much as you stressed about those few people born with a very minor head start, then maybe you'd actually be good enough at this point to not even have a reason to complain about such stupid shit.
>>2470554
I have double on the left and I'm right handed. Though I was left handed when I was really young, they beat that shit out of me.
>>2470118
I have it :D
Ligameme master race!
>>2470163
You might have talent, but youll have put in the work anyway.
i think talent is how u see and feel and what logic u have
>>2470905
this t b h f a m
The spark is real, but who cares? If you don't believe it, you aren't around enough artists. Some people can just draw/paint/sculpt naturally, with no practice or training. Sometimes they later practice and get trained and truly git gud.
Usually they don't because pursuing art is not practical.
It has little or nothing to do with intelligence. I've known really smart people bend their will to git gud and never get there, and I've known dunces who can Loomis effortlessly.
Whatever, just keep scratching on that paper. Practical or not, there are worse ways to spend your time.
I view the spark as having more to do with passion than with talent. I had a classmate in college who was pro-tier at the time he enrolled (20ish) because he spent all his time drawing in high school. He would get excited by an idea, hammer it out, and put it in the pile. He had several binders full of pages of pages of characters, environements and vehicles, inked or rendered in graphite. And a huge folder of PSDs on his computer. He never did any studies or drew from life either, just loved to draw.
How do i tell my mom i have the spark and it'd be a waste to keep working at McDonalds?
> Worrying about not being naturally talented
Sometimes I worry that I'm mentally retarded and I can't even progress at the same pace of the average no-talent person despite the hours I put in
can you learn only using eraser and pencil?
>>2471375
yes absolutely
>>2471417
>>2471215
I think it was Jensen who said that: talent x motivation x opportunity = ability
>>2471261
Dat screencap...fuck...
>>2471261
I laughed so much. I'm such a horrible person.
I just do not understand how some people have such a hard time with perspective. It's such an easy and simple idea to me. Even in middle school I was like "this is a simple process" and draw out the Titanic all in perspective. My control of lighting, values, and composition were shit but the perspective was on point.
In art there really aren't that man straight forward ideas and processes. Perspective is one of the few things that you just follow the formula and you'll get the answer. Just keep in mind the angle of a perfect cube while copying down a landscape and the rest just falls into place after you find your perspective points and horizon.
>>2471425
Sport psychologists know elite athletes are born when a disciplined child with supportive parents starts training under a competent coach at a young age.
Marketing knows people are more likely to buy "talent" than "effort".
Same is true of art. Prodigies and virtuosos aren't born, they're made through parental support and early instruction, or burning passion and discipline in adults.
>>2471712
Whatever it takes to keep your spirits up i guess anon.
>>2470382
if you have good hand control, you dont waste time on your lines so youre concentrated on the actual task of learning form and color. Clearly the ligameme is the amplified. The spark.
>>2470483
wait a fucking minute. howd you take that picture?
There is such thing as stroke efficiency. So a steadier/more flexible hand does impact the quality of your work - it's especially important for those who work with ink and linearts.
>>2472004
I know you are just trying to be funny but come the fuck on.
>>2472089
i honestly cant tell, is it a flip-phone or a laptop?
>>2472090
literally kill yourself
All ligameme faggotry aside, I wonder if handedness has anything to do with it, since it influences which side of the brain you're naturally using more when drawing.
>>2470483
ok now your butthole.
>>2471879
Both of these are from the same person, I should know because I posted them. Nobody needs this ridiculous muscle - it's so useless that it's becoming less and less common as the human architecture evolves. The proof of this is in the dissective analysis - typically surgeons would encounter the PL in about 80% of subjects in the 1960's while in contemporary times it's about 50-60%. Those stats are right out of the newest edition of Gray's Anatomy - I can quote you the page and reference articles if you like. And like I said initially, you can get by fine without it - there are even cases where having it can be detrimental to the ergonomics of your wrist because it fucks up the congruity of the annular ligament and can give you carpal tunnel syndrome or oedematous neuropraxia.
>>2472116
>>2471875
>>2470622
These guys are kind of on the right tack. If you want to get better at using tools, the best way to get better is, surprisingly, use those tools. There's a whole slew of research behind how the brain adapts to the demands of musculature, and how different areas of the brain can change in response to specific, repeated stimuli. I'm not going to bore everyone with the specifics, but the crux of it is this - continually drawing, that means putting pen to paper and getting your mileage out, will lead to neural reorganisation that increases the efficiency, dexterity and accuracy of your movements. It's possible to take a slice of brain, stain it, and assess the extent that people used different muscle groups over the course of their lives. I bet if I cut open Feng Zhu's brain, and lord knows I'd like to, the motor cortices controlling hand movement and patterning would be really vascularised and really big.
If you want to get better, do like I said here >>2470586 - keep working, keep reviewing, and keep posting on the board.
Stop fucking worrying about this ridiculous band of flesh in your arm.
>>2472180
I usually refrain from using autism as an insult. But my man...
>>2472183
I know I know. I have only a few great loves in my life; art, painting, poetry, anatomy, surgery and Nicki Minaj's sweet, succulent ass.
And I will defend them tooth and nail.
>>2470574
whoa this is an eye opener cause I don't have access to any anatomy books. I had learned the definition of ligaments was connects bone to bone. they're joint strengtheners?
>>2472199
Yessir. Ligaments are composed of similar tissue as tendons, but they don't have very much elasticity. Think of ligaments like ropes that tie bones together and make sure joints move in specific ways, while tendons are designed to store elastic potential energy for movement. A good example of this is your Achilles tendon, which stores the energy from your gastroc heads and soleus so it can be released during the walking cycle.
Contrast this to your Anterior or Posterior Collateral Ligament joint complex stable. They react very badly to elastic deformation, and can snap if you don't take care of them. Other ligaments like the Radial and Ulnar collateral ligaments help keep your elbow together, and there are three major ligaments that help keep the head of your humerus locked into the socket of your hip, the acetabulum.
There are a couple of really good dissective lectures online if you want to view them, or you can pirate an anatomy book. They've got a lot of technical language but they're fun as shit to read through!
I'm interested in drawing but unfortunately I don't have the spark or ligameme. Can I compensate the lack of them with those expensive computer screen where you can draw on it? Everything should be possible with money, right?
>>2470093
Talent = Intelligence
You are welcome anons. Now you can close the thread.
>>2470148
I don't have it, I'm better than you and I already made it since I live comfortably off my art. What now?
>>2472225
post your art
>>2472250
I don't need to prove you or any other anon anything. I sm simply saying that this ligament has nothing to do with talent (intelligence) and art.
The only thing that will make you good at art is how smart and hard working you are.
Now go back to your drawing board, you have a lot of practicing to do, kid.
>>2472255
youve got a lot of posting to do, adult.
>>2472255
Im just going to be real with you anon and say you're a complete fuckin tard and probably not as good as you think. But that's not why you are a tard.
The spark shit. The ligament shit. It's just fun shitposting. A joke some would say.
>>2472269
>I also know you spending your time here shitposting is why you guys will never make it
I've already made it though ya dumbfuck. You're not a special snowflake.
Also you're shitpostin just as much. I can't believe you actually believe what you're saying.
'M-muh spark' - cognitive dissonance
>>2470622
>smart person spots patterns, identifies weaknesses, tries to learn
Not that I think I'm smart but I'm more worried that I'm over-analyzing everything instead of just letting 'it' just happen.
