Seeing as "symbol drawing" is seemingly the default response to anyone who isn't good. How the hell do you "not" symbol draw? It's easy to say "just learn how to draw in 3D/perspective, draw what is actually there/what you see.
Problem is, If you're drawing what you see, and it's still looking like a symbol, what the fuck are you doing wrong/how do you fix it?
There's such a vagueness with criticism on this board that this board needs a massive overhaul.
>>2393197
Oh look, this faggot again. If your drawing looks like a symbol you are symbol drawing. That's the very definition of symbol drawing. It's not vague in the slightest. You fix it by training your eyes, preferably by drawing from life. A lot.
>>2393206
>Oh look, this faggot again
.....what?
>>2393209
Same picture post, same symbol drawing denial. Don't think we wouldn't recognize you buddy.
>>2393197
because /ic/ level of critique is just terrible. consider yourself lucky that you didn't got advised to just read some loomis manual or something.
>>2393214
You've got me confused with someone
study, study, study. Go practice instead of making these threads
>>2393222
Post your work.
>>2393219
I've skimmed through the loomis books, including the supposed best one Fun with a pencil. It's garbage.
>>2393226
No scanner unfortunately.
I'm beyond frustrated.Even drawing from life/from reference, my stuff looks like shit. I can't draw a face to save my life. I don't know what the fuck to do. Practicing is useless if you just keep doing shit wrong. You're just perfecting being horrible.
>>2393197
Same thing every week.
Some guy spends all of two days to a week or two, gets mad for some reason like someone hurt their feelings or someone didn't spoonfeed them and they find it within them that it isn't their fault but rather everyone on /ic/'s fault whether it's the sticky or someone calling them a faggot. Seriously, fuck off, you've been given more than enough in resources and instruction but you're too dumb and stubborn to admit you're wrong and do anything with what you've been given.
>>2393231
Directing newbies to the sticky is whats wrong with /ic/. The sticky is useless trash and needs updating.
>>2393233
Sounds more like you're the useless trash here, senpai. You can't draw for shit yet Loomis isn't good enough for you. Get out in the proverbial cotton feet and work like a nigger at drawing for a few months and then come back before you post again.
>>2393239
I'm not even the fucking OP you retarded inbred fuck.
>>2393240
His point still stands. The sticky is a starting point not a means to an end just like every single resource on drawing available on the Internet.
>>2393240
DONT MAKE ME ANGRY FOR NOTHING YOU STUPID FUCK
>Symbol drawing means you can't draw something accurately
>Any drawing from your imagination is symbol drawing
which is it, /ic/?
>>2393247
kek
>>2393197
learn to slowly get rid of symbol drawing by drawing with your eyes and not with your brain as in only add the details of what you see in front of you and not what you think it looks like.
> If you're drawing what you see, and it's still looking like a symbol, what the fuck are you doing wrong/how do you fix it?
take your pick/s
study form more
start with only shadow shapes
turn it upside down
i find the 2nd suits me most
>>2393250
You never stop symbol drawing, the symbols just become exponentially more complex, intricate and most importantly rotatable in space and not just elementary school tier scrawling. For sake of pragmatism when beginners can't grasp how to depict form or draw accurately it's considered symbol drawing.
You can stay here and argue about dumb semantics or you can realize that it's gonna take a long time of hard work and practice before your drawings start to look decent. Stop arguing and start drawing.
>>2393254
That's the thing. I've been doing that.
People are going to trash me saying "well then that means you aren't". But thats how it is. I draw exactly what I see. It's not like drawing a damn almond shaped eye or some stupid shit.
I draw using a regular #2 pencil currently. What is necessary to avoid this "symbol drawing" horseshit that /ic/ is in love with? I just do line art currently, then ima move onto shading. But apparently you don't NEED shading to show form. So what is the bare minimum in line art/starting out. cross contour lines, etc?
>>2393268
This thread is more or less useless without pictures of you work. We can't just take your word for it, we have to see it with our own eyes.
>>2393197
Okay so here's what I think of symbol drawing and how to fix it -
Symbol drawing is a catch-all term for when you're drawing X but instead of drawing it representing its forms and design, you're drawing it representing pre-conceived notions of what X is. Usually when you symbol draw it comes off as flat because it relies heavily on black lines that doesn't give you much information.
To fix the issue of symbol drawing you need to train your eye. How do you train your eye? You do exercises that encourage a system of checks and balances when you draw from reference. Dorian Iten's Accuracy and CTRLPaint's #2 section can help with this; those resources will teach you how to check proportions, angles, etc. Typically you wanna start out with simpler objects (still life) because mistakes are more apparent, easier to fix and the object doesn't move so you can take your time. Bargue Plates are also a good place to go since they're specifically designed to train your eyes. It takes practice but it does get easier to draw what you see instead of what you think you see.
>>2393268
If you were drawing exactly what you saw then you wouldn't be getting told it looked like symbol drawing. Its more than possible to express form using only lines. Overlay your drawing with the reference, chances are its going to be really off. Work on your observational skills, learn sight sizing and how to measure.
Do some of the simple bargue plates to work on that and improve draftsmanship (you can probably find a PDF of the book in the books thread, print off the plates).
Focus on getting the shape and angle of each line correct rather than thinking about the subject matter.
>>2393268
If you've "been doing that" and people still think you aren't doing it then that means you need to practice.
It takes time to get used to seeing things in terms of 3D forms and not how you think they're supposed to look. It isn't an instant on/off switch to suddenly stop symbol drawing.
>>2393279
And just to clarify on what you'd do for imaginative drawing or anything that's not strictly trying to "copy" something from reference- The more you draw from reference and the more you get down these mental tools the more you'll build your visual library. Once you feel you've got a decent grasp on drawing accurately you can branch out and begin to utilize new tools in conjunction with the 2d checks and balances tools you've learned. These new tools would be you breaking down objects you see thinking about the perspective/form thus allowing you to build your visual library. Drawabox would be a good place to go to help you with this and honestly the first two lessons are hella important. Fuck the haters of DAB that recommend Peter Han (not hating on Peter Han but DAB gives you a lot more practice and you essentially get the same info + more), they either haven't done it, done the updated version or are just assholes. It's helped me a shitload.
>>2393286
I know of DAB, I just don't know exactly how to balance the exercises with attempting my own art. Bc I don't want to spend ALL of my time drawing, just drawing useless shit like lines and cubes, etc.
>>2393293
You're not fooling anyone. You are THIS guy and we all know it.
>>2393227
>skimmed
>>2393266
this is the answer
i get your frustration, but this is it. you can't just run around the neighborhood twice and get frustrated about not being able to do a marathon. you have to actually train for it. treat it like an exercise, a sport.
don't get upset at people here. be angry at yourself for complaining instead of grinding. grow a pair. go draw boxes.
>>2393293
it's like conditioning and playing soccer for fun. are you going to get better just playing soccer for fun on the weekends? probably, but very very slowly. go learn soccer properly and you have to work so fucking hard but you know what? you're going to be so much better than anyone who does kicks around the ball every other week and whines about getting tired after running.
>>2393306
then draw what you want, as long as you're okay with it being kinda crappy at first. you'll probably learn something. Just dont expect to have some huge epiphany, getting good takes years of practice
>>2393308
not him but it works both ways. Spending time drawing nothing but lines and cubes isn't going to make someone magically good at drawing.
>>2393319
Reading a dictionary alone won't teach you a language but it can give you a leg up in the process, it's the same with grinding trying to git gud at freehand perspective and your fundies. If you practice enough and you're proactive you'll reach a happy medium but that's only if you're consistent.
>>2393306
You can build something out of those cubes bruh. Throw in some cylinders and you have a basic human figure.
>>2393331
yeah well drawing facial features seems to be a major issue of mine. Why I don't know. And i've seen all those damn exercises with loomis, proko, etc. Yet whenever I do it I looks nothing like them.
>>2393341
Draw a skull.
>>2393341
Those tutorials, videos and books aren't a means to an end, they're supposed to guide you in the direction you need to go. Of course you aren't gonna get it right the first few (hundred) times you try and that's just how it is.
Think about it this way, imagine those tutorials are the equivalent to doing a sport like football, proko's video on drawing the head is like throwing a spiral. Now imagine you being inexperienced as an artist as the equivalent of being a really out of shape fat dude trying to do sports. Of course you won't be able to toss a good spiral because you're really out of shape and have no upper body strength or finesse, you improve that by exercising and getting into a good degree of fitness before you can make decent attempts at making that spiral. Tell same is with drawing. You can't draw facial features or much else because you're inexperienced and lacking a good foundational skill set. Once you build that skill set (life drawing, linear perspective, depicting form accurately) then drawing things like a face will be a lot less of a hassle.
Bitching about it will get you no where, practicing and being proactive will.
>>2393298
ohhh i laugh a lot that day
>>2393293
>just drawing useless shit like lines and cubes, etc.
Do the grind you fucking faggot.
There is nothing wrong with symbol drawing if you are trying to stylize in such a way.
>>2393197
>There's such a vagueness with criticism on this board that this board needs a massive overhaul.
Because what you're asking is really fucking complex. This isn't a matter of internet posts from kind strangers willing to give you the time, it's a matter of reading books, watching demos, drawing for hours over a period of years, receiving actual dedicated instruction.
>>2393227
Yeah man, iktf, I skimmed a book on neuroscience, didn't teach me a fucking thing.
You don't get better by just practicing continuously per se. Try to understand why your picture looks they way it does when compared to real life (or to another picture). You have to know what mistakes you are making before you can fix them. Some faults could be: poor hand-eye coordination, poor visualisation, or not enough knowledge - everyone is prone to different errors.
And of course, not knowing where you're going wrong is something to improve, too. Take it one step at a time. Don't rank yourself compared to other artists, but DO understand where your differences lie.
Tl;dr: just keep practicing
>>2393268
>I draw exactly what I see
Or what you think you see.
And you need to go beyond what you see, understanding the underlying forms. Understanding the eye as a sphere behind two soft rectangular prisms, understanding the torso as an assembly of boxes and spherical forms, etc.
I'm going to go ahead and assume you are the guy from the last thread and too proud to say, so I'm stating this based on what little I remember of seeing in that thread (if it's not you, then this thread really is quite useless without seeing your work). But take a step back from trying to draw people and just stick to basic shapes, ideally from life. Put your mug under a lamp and draw it as a cylinder, take a tissue box and draw it as a cube, etc. Learn a bit of perspective to accurately recede them into space. Apply these forms for slightly more complex objects, like the multiple boxes and cylinders of a table, the bent and tapered cylinder of a banana, whatever. Look at whatever objects are around you and break it down into basic forms.
It's not as simple as drawing what you see, you have to comprehend what you see. Symbol drawing is what happens when you take what you see for granted.
>>2393487
I don't "draw what I think I see". That is stupid
Even with all of the hand steadiness/hand eye coordination practice, how can I combat that if I don't have the steadiest hand/the pencil doesn't always go where I want?
>>2393492
>I don't "draw what I think I see". That is stupid
You're stupid.
Read a book, asshole. Don't fucking ask me questions after that.
>>2393492
It's painfully obvious that even after multiple people have spelled everything out for what you have been asking about in a number of fashions you're only looking for what you want to hear. You're only wasting your time.
>>2393492
>Even with all of the hand steadiness/hand eye coordination practice, how can I combat that if I don't have the steadiest hand/the pencil doesn't always go where I want?
What are you even talking about? Drawing what you see has nothing to do with 100% accuracy and near perfect hand-eye coordination. As the poster above you said, UNDERSTAND what you see and understand the underlying forms of thngs. How the fuck is this so hard to get?
you can evolve symbol drawing into drawing cartoon stuff, or you can train your eyes to draw in 3d (not sure what the term is for it) to draw realistic stuff.
like if you wanna draw this pic realistically then you study it by thinking about it in 3d. or you could break it down into shapes and apply that to a cartoon style. i see people using shapes for realistic stuff too
it all boils down to what you wanna do
>>2394215
You have no clue what you are talking about, do you? Whether you draw in symbols or 3 dimensionally has nothing whatsoever to do with you choosing to draw realistically or stylized.
The Practice and Science of Drawing by Harold Speed - the chapters on Line and Mass drawing explain everything you'd need to know about this (more than most people giving you those critiques).
>>2394355
fukc u bitch
>>2394907
>>2393197
Symbol drawing is exactly what it sounds like, you dumbass.
It's drawing a representation of an object, or what you think an object should look like, not the actual object.
You draw a face and say "hurr no this doesn't look like a face this isn't right" because you're symbol drawing.
You're parsing what you see rather than drawing individual lines and contours.
Example in this really bad mspaint picture I made.
>>2394975
Well then what the fuck do I do then? I'm not drawing what I think it should look like, I am drawing what is there and it looks all blocky and shitty, I don't know what to do.
>>2394975
That is the worlds worst fucking example I've ever seen. If you're going to illustrate your point with a picture you should know how to draw and take longer than half a damn second.
>>2395006
it looks like a good example. whats wrong with it fagot?
>get a picture you want to study and turn it upsidedown
>copy what you see
/thread
>>2394998
squint really hard so everything blurs into abstract shapes and areas of light and shadow and block in those shapes
>>2394975
>>2395006
i tried
This thead makes me feel good about myself
>>2393197
Find the Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain Workbook. Just grind the exercises and ignore useless babble.
>>2395325
>> Right Side of the Meme
>>2394998
>I am drawing what is there
You probably fucking aren't, retard. Get some goddamn humility and realise that maybe the universe isn't rigged against one asshat's ability to draw. If your results are flawed, your approach is flawed. How fucking difficult is it?
>I AM putting the hat on my head, it just keeps landing on my ass instead!
>>2395345
oh really I just traced over a REAL eye, and yet it still looks "like a symbol".
Instead of just throwing that fucking term around, why don't you people tell the people guilty of this shit, exactly what to fucking do to fix it, as opposed to pointing them to some outdated dumbass book that doesn't help for anything. What the fuck needs to be done, cross contour lines, shading, what the fuck is the remedy, if shading is not necessary?
>>2395349
I can guarantee you're doing it with heavy, unkempt and haphazard lines, of course it's not gonna look like what you're trying to trace because you have very little control over your hand and your pencil
Because
You're
A
Beginner
You have no clue what the hell you're talking about and rather than deal with your emotions in a healthy or constructive way you're so insecure that you'd desperatly try to shift the blame from yourself (because that would mean actually acknowledging that you have to work to get better) to the absolute myriad of people telling you what to do to get better. Stop shoving your nose into your table and desperately trying to draw a fucking eye when you obviously fucking can't. Work on your fundamentals just like everyone in the last two threads has told you to do and come back to it in a month or two and you'll see that you were talking or of your ass.
Or just fucking quit because it's too hard and it's somehow /ic/'s fault you can't draw an eye after only two days of trying.
>>2395349
>oh really I just traced over a REAL eye, and yet it still looks "like a symbol".
Because you trace it, you colossal fucking faggot. You are not describing forms, you are putting down flat lines.
No one is going to sit here and write you your own personal fucking novel on how it's done. If you want to know, read the fucking books, do the fucking work, put on your big boy pants like every other fucker that has the audacity to try and replicate a goddamn human being onto a sheet of paper, and choke on a fucking dick.
Anon, in the multiple threads you made before, while there was an abundance of undesirable posts, there was legitimate posts trying to help you; Even I don't want to waste anymore time on you; get that stubbornness of yours in check. One of the things you need to learn is how to critique yourself, you can't expect everyone to have the answers for you. Being able to asses your shortcomings and correct them yourself will help quicken things.
If you are at all ever guessing where your lines go and letting them loose where they lie, it means you don't understand what you're drawing. Questions like, does this line go here, is it necessary, does it add or subtract from the drawing, is there a better way to describe what I'm trying to draw, etc should always be running through your mind.
I'm not going to waste my time and give the multiple resources, links and road-map like last few times (all of which are in the sticky), but what I will tell you, among the plethora of issues you have you main issue is form. Forget this delusion that shading is your problem; no amount of detail and shading will mask a poorly constructed drawing. You're not thinking 3-Dimensionally.
http://www.ctrlpaint.com/videos/form-not-shape
https://youtu.be/o1lleIBzn3A?t=18m19s
https://youtu.be/3uEtdDvK6Xo
These videos aren't the be all end all, but will get you started.
Drawing is a long and tedious lifetime commitment. Its obvious your looking for the one answer, the quick fix to all your problems. The sooner you realize you have to walk down the same road as everyone else the better for you. The sooner your properly grasp the concept of your the faster you'll get out of your slump.
I wish you well, Anon.
>>2393268
You're a dumb person who can't figure basic shit like life drawing for yourself, even with the aid of books that explain it clearly. Give up drawing and never have kids.
>>2393268
Have you ever considered thinking that you are incapable of learning new shit because you are fucking stubborn,
It's not the tutorials and lessons fault that you aren't learning. It's just you being a dumbass.
>gets two entire threads worth of in depth advice and direction
>complains about not getting help
Yeah nah
You're a cunt
>>2395258
Good example bro
>>2395403
>You're not thinking 3-Dimensionally.
I am so sick of hearing this. I fucking am. I know how to draw a fucking sphere and a cube and a fucking pyramid.
>>2395518
Not OP, but based on what I have seen in these threads. Being spammed with HURR DURR KEEP DRAWING CUBES READ THE FUCKING STICKY is not sound advice
>>2396107
prove it you fucking dipshit
>>2396130
How the fuck do you want me to do that, draw another useless cube?
>>2396135
Please do
>muh scanner
Either take a photo or use MS paint -- one box in two-point perspective.
If you're not capable of this then you're not proficient enough to rebut anyone's advice. If you're not willing to put in the 2mins of effort then we'll also know that no amount of advice is gonna help you.
>>2396201
Happy now?
>>2396248
Your cube is severely fucked, as expected.
>>2396248
Come on people. This guy is a troll
>>2396248
>>2393250
Symbol drawing isn't just drawing an inaccurate representation, it's drawing a "symbol" You aren't drawing the form of the eye, you're drawing a symbolic representation of the eye. A proper drawing from imagination incorporates and applies the fundamentals, constructing an image with perspective and form.
>>2396274
oh shut the fuck up. I'm not drawing some "symbolic representation". I draw the fucking sphere, and then I draw the lids wrapping around the eye. I don't draw some fucking almond/goldfish outline and throw a circle in it. I'm not that fucking dense.
>>2396113
You haven't actually read the threads at all
>>2396416
Oh look, another ignoramus on /ic/
Whoever runs this site needs to get rid of this shit board.
>>2393293
You have to ballance creative, enjoyable drawing with construction, perspective, etc. studies. It's not good to only do analytical drawings, one can't approach art with such an autistic mindset. Or they will end up with lifeless drawings, and lose their creative powers.
>>2396306
If you were then you wouldn't have any issues. You're so naive it's painful, understanding what constitutes a drawing that depicts form is one thing but actually being able to do it is another issue entirely. The underlying issue is that you fucking suck at drawing and the remedy is to draw until you suck less. Sitting in a corner pouting that you can't draw an eye perfectly after a few attempts is counter productive, swallow your pride and get to work.
>>2396426
No, you've completely ignored lengthy and insightful posts for ones that you can cherry pick and argue over dumb semantics because you have it in your mind that there's no way you can be wrong. Fucking grow up.
>>2396433
doing what? Sticking with DAB? Proko, Loomis, and Vilppu are painful resources, as is DOTRSOB.
I'm so fucking far behind on drawing and I have a lot of catching up to do. And I want to do it in the fastest way possible.
>>2396438
...I'm not even the OP. Dumbass
91 replies, and all that OP's drawn is a fucking cube.
>>2396426
>not knowing about our glorious Hiroyuki-sama
>>2393197
>what the fuck are you doing wrong/how do you fix it?
Build the eye from the ground up, don't just put some shapes down which resemble an eye.
>>2396446
Just keep drawing, dude. Find out what works and what doesn't.
I spend roughly 3 hours a day just to finish with a crappy drawing. I've noticed a good amount of improvement since I've started a month ago.
>>2396484
Thats what I am fucking doing. Im not "just putting some shapes down which resemble a fucking eye".
I draw the sphere of the eye, and I draw the lids that wrap around it, not forgetting the top/bottom planes of each fucking lid.
>>2396446
Good instruction is only 1/10th of the equation, the rest is hard work and consistent practice. The sad reality is that there is no one fastest way but there are things you can do to make it so it doesn't have to take longer than it should by being proactive with learning, knowing how to self critique and building the discipline it takes to draw abs learn every day. Read every book, watch every one of the videos and go through the course materials and after a while you will find which techniques and practices do and don't work for you but that's only if you actually try and put in the work because as mentioned multiple times previously they're a point to start and build upon, not a means to an end.
This of course is all hingent on you and whether or not you're willing to work. Knuckle down or find another hobby because you've already wasted enough time here.
>>2396446
Spoiler alert: It's a long and painful route you must walk. Only shortcuts are honeypot shortcuts that lead you to "muh styil" shitter drawings that end up on cringe threads.
>>2396514
Did I say I wanted a shortcut? God, learn to read you dumb nigger.
>>2396465
The point still stands you mongoloid. You're ignoring what everyone is saying because you're upset that anon won't fucking spoon feed you.
>>2396520
What the fuck are you on about? I haven't asked to be spoonfed a goddamn thing. I haven't even ASKED anything. Are you retarded?
Lurking in this thread has given me a headache... I'm gonna go draw something now.
I seriously wonder why OP is so intent on drawing and eye
Do you think we all just woke up one day and figured out the universal solution? Just git gud/post your work
>>2396550
I'm trying to get the facial features down so I can do character/concept art..
nobody has answered my fucking question and instead have just bombarded me with symbol drawing shitposts.
What is the bare fucking minimum to show form without shading. Lineweight, cross contour, what.
I want to be able to do realistic character sketches, along with painting, I want to be great at this stuff period. You're not going to improve just drawing cubes and lines over and over and over
>>2396561
posting work on /ic/ is useless, even if his work was decent it would be flooded with shitposts recommending loomis.
>>2396562
You gotta start somewhere dude.
Just take it easy, draw what you want, and sooner or later itll just stick.
Or u will nev art heh
>>2396562
Do you seriously want someone to go and highlight every single reply to you that included what you should be doing? Are you seriously this wilfully ignorant?
>>2396566
>I thumbed through a Loomis book and I wasn't good immediately after /ic/ totally sucks
>>2396599
>>replying like I am OP
god you people are dense
>>2396562
There really is no helping you; your unrelenting preconceptions is honestly baffling. You need to change that mentality of yours first and foremost. There's nothing any us can say to change your mind, none of us have the answer your looking for because what you're looking for isn't there. You've gotten your solution many, many times, but instead of considering the advice you throw a little hissy fit because its not the easy-fix solution you want to hear. I've met your type many a time before; you'll writhe in mediocrity until you either reach epiphany or realize drawing isn't for you. I hope your not looking to do this professionally, for your sake and for any poor soul who has to deal with you.
You're either a good shitposter or a lost fool; I hope you find your way, eventually.
>>2396635
I'm not looking for a fucking shortcut. Telling someone to draw cubes over and over isn't going to help them fucking improve.
God there's nothing but shitposting on this board, if conceptart wasn't so fucking dead I'd be there instead of this useless shithole.
>>2396602
>you can only reply to dumb shit if OP says it
>>2396639
After paragraphs of insight and instruction that wasn't 'draw cubes lol' you still espouse that they all are. I am seriously convinced you are a troll.
>>2396639
We're not telling you to draw 100 cubes, but that's all you can pick out because of how misguided you are. Even if you got past your mental road block, you're they type to turn into a 'muh stlye'. Why do you insist on talking /ic/ down and not moving on? Go chase your fairies somewhere else. Why not go to Reddit? I'm sure they would be happy to give you the hugs you're looking for. Don't worry about us, we'll be laughing all the way to the bank with all these keks you're giving everyone.
Stay delusional OP, it's always good to have a good hardy laugh at people like you.
>symbol drawing
>human copy machine
Is there any other near meaningless buzzwords that new posters throw around to fit in?
>>2396656
well where are these "paragraphs of insight and instruction". I'll put an end to the bitching if I get a legitimate answer.
I would prefer video tutorials/other means than books because I hate ebooks.
>this entire thread
It's really quite sad that so many people are wasting their precious time trying to educate OP's ungrateful ass when other well meaning beginners sometimes go ignored because they're not ridiculous enough to be entertaining.
I just hope someone's getting something out of these threads, even if OP isn't. But I'd encourage you all to stop wasting your own time. If OP is stubborn, learn from his mistake and let go.
>>2396701
Mother fucker, how about you point out in this thread where exactly someone tells you to draw cubes over and over as a former of practice rather than to assess where you are skill wise. Give up your stupid confirmation bias and actually read what people have wrote you that you have been willfully ignorant towards.
>>2396673
Symbol drawing is a common response to beginners because it's seriously the first step, the Go spot on Monopoly if you will. Its commonly the fist thing someone needs to train to break out of hence why its a COMMON answer to BEGINNERS. Crazy, huh?
Sticky, Loomis and all the '/ic/ memes' are only a thing because every snowflake that blows in, like OP, expects us to hold their hand through the entire journey, but its when the insufferable cunt, like OP, comes and ruins it for everyone. No one is willing to waste their time anymore and no longer wants to help a ungrateful pricks. We tell them to do the work them self ("Read the sticky"), in the end that's the better route, cut out the middle man and critique yourself to a degree. There's nothing wrong with asking for help, just don't be an ass about it.
If you spend and extended period of time on the internet you would know this is a common thing in EVERY community ie: FAQs, readme, STICKYS.
Please fuck off to wherever you came from.
>>2396829
Yeah, of course symbol drawing is a thing. Nobody is denying it. That's not the point.
But idiots on here don't seem to want to learn what it really is before they spout it off like a catchphrase. They only have a shallow understanding of it.
This infographic is from the beginner thread. Fucking read it. This is what symbol drawing is.
It's not a catchall term for misunderstanding form.
Nobody fucking reads the sticky. Nobody reads infographics like these. They just skim over it and think they know what "symbol drawing" means and then misapply the term.
It's getting to the point where its rare to see it used correctly.
When you spout it off in inappropriate situations, you are not being cool, or knowledgeable or funny.
You are fucking embarrassing yourself.
>>2396731
It's foolish to take /ic/ as anything more than dumb entertainment. Shitposting and trolling takes a priority over artistic development.
Anyone too stupid to realize this deserves to have their jimmies rustled.
This is NOT a good place to seriously learn art.
>>2396872
>yet I'm still here
>>2396862
You're trying to tell off the wrong people here, but fine. Go ahead, with your true almighty understanding of "'symbol drawing" talk some sense into OP, I'm sure he'll be ungrateful of your efforts too.
>>2396862
That was an interesting image.
>>2396872
As long as you're having fun.
Ok fuckers , you think yall so smart but most of you cant draw for shit hahahh and you tellin me that im bad? Fuck off with yo bullshit cuz i aint that stupid
>>2397076
Your attempt to try and act like me is a horrible one
OP here. I will try to do this from the beginning and hopefully we will all come to an agreement. I still dont know shit but I will try at least, thanks for any form of guidance here.
>>2393197
>symbol drawing
put this into google. What the hell are you all taking about?
>>2397435
read the fucking sticky
>>2393197
Did you fucking fall for the "symbol drawing is a shitpost" meme? You stop symbol drawing by NOT DRAWING FUCKING SYMBOLS.
>>2393197
Symbols are your interpretation of what you see.
You have to draw what you actually see, a series of lights and shadows, nothing more.
>>2397418
Fk off
>>2393250
You should still be using references even if drawing from imagination.
>>2396723
kill yourself
This thread is giving me some serious deja vu.
I talked about this on reddit recently
www.reddit.com/r/learnart/comments/4580x3/if_im_supposed_to_draw_what_i_see_and_not_what_i/
TLDR: Some people say symbol drawing because it makes them feel like they got a handle on things, like they know they're doing. It's something they use as an excuse to preach whatever personal philosophy they may have about drawing.
It doesnt mean anything since what constitutes as a symbol is vague and subjective. It's just something retards use to stand on thier soapbox
>>2399202
symbol drawer detected
>>2399203
i posted my work in one of the replies.
I dont get something. I am being told to draw what I see, not to draw what I think is there when I have to copy something. Then I am told that I cant just draw what I see, I have to understand it and build it by forms, not buy symbols.
So what the fuck?
>>2399241
*by symbols
>>2399241
Yeah, I dont get it either. And it's frustrating to deal with people who don't see contradictories. It's like the refuse to believe it's dumb.
The art world in general can be pretty fucking vague and flowery. Personally I don't object to OP's complaints because honestly, yeah, the terminology can be bullshit. Most of learning how to draw is trying to distinguish the crap from the gold and figuring out how to get your brain to do what you want it to.
If you get accused of symbol drawing, here are some potential issues:
- You're focusing too much on the contours of the object
- Your depiction is based heavily around conceptual notions about the object rather than the literal physical structure of the object
- A lack of relevant details
- Distortion of proportions or perspective
- Poor or nonexistent indications of the object's form (cross-contour lines, light/shadow, etc)
The reason it's called symbol drawing is because most beginners don't really understand what they're drawing, but they attempt to draw anyway, and in doing so, they tend to create crude abstractions of the objects they are trying to depict. The point at which something stops being a symbol is extremely arbitrary, as are most things in art.
>>2393197
When ppl symbol draw they look at an eye then say to themselves "ok I am drawing an eye now" then look into their mental file of what eyes look like and then draws that. Repeat process for nose mouth ears etc.
Not symbol drawing skips the middle, goes straight from "I see this collection of forms" to "I draw the forms" without breaking it up into chunks
>>2393341
It's because you don't actually understand the form of a face
>>2396639
wanna know why these anons are telling you to draw cubes?
because you literally can't fucking draw anything else.
you fail at even the most simple exercises, and you learn nothing from it. want proof that these exercises aren't shitposts?? go to drawabox.com and they'll tell you to do the same thing.
you're being advised to revert to even easier drawing exercises-
BECAUSE YOU LITERALLY.
L I T E R A L L Y.
YOU NEED TO START FROM SQUARE ONE
Here is what I don't get. (long rant)
First they say you're just drawing what you think the things is. And that what you're thinking is the symbol for the thing itself and that is what you shouldn't be thinking.
Then they turn around and say you're suppose to draw what you see, as if that magicall clarifies the whole problem. And more confusing is when they tell you to use lines and forms to draw the thing. In other words they want you to use another kind of symbol to draw the idea of the thing. That's right, you go right back to symbols, those things you arent suppose to think.
WTF? SERIOUSLY? ARE THESE PEOPLE THAT DENSE ABOUT WHAT COMES OUT OF THIER MOUTHS?
I get that delusions can get in the way of drawing. I've read hundreds of artists and dozens of research that say that. But those people nearly all don't come to such a backward ass conclusion like this dumb adage. I understand delusions are a problem, but you shouldn't go around saying, "Dont do that!" like some worrying attention whoring twerp. That doesnt help. It just makes others worry about something that is not much of a problem. The big problem, the real problem is simply a lack of knowing how to see for the sake of drawing.
Wouldnt it be easier to explain what you're suppose to see? Wouldn't it be easier to just talk about those lines and forms? Instead of wasting time and energy trying to explain a half thought out problem, that really isnt the problem, why not go directly to confronting the real problem?
They just dont know how to see like an artist does. They just dont know the language is all. Think of it like this: If youre teaching someone a second language do you tell them to NOT think in thier heads thier own language? No! You start them off with some basic vocabulary and phrases.
So why not do something like that? Why not teach about line, form, measuring, sighting, proportions etc.? Why not cut out the unnecessary crap and just go into explaining the knowledge, the language?
>>2399560
You're never going to make it.
>>2399591
I get by
>>2399610
You're never going to make it.
>>2396639
shitposting =/= post I don't like.
>>2399821
neither will you
>>2400135
You're never going to make it.
>>2400148
It doesn't matter. In the end we are all just a pile of human garbage shoved into the ground.
>>2399560
symbols are abstract stand-ins for representations of things, they sort of "point" to concepts of things rather than resemble them. a symbol drawing of an eye is the visual equivalent of the word "eye". it's a general symbol which evokes in one's mind the idea of an eye. the letters on their own have no meaning, much as the individual lines in the symbol drawing of the eye have no meaning, and that is where there's similarity to non-symbol drawing. but assembled those things both point to the same generic idea of an eye.
so when people say to draw what you see, they mean as opposed to drawing what is evoked in your mind by what you see. in other words, drawing that specific eye instead of drawing the symbolic representation of eyes in general.
but you're right too, it's too often now that explaining what is meant has become a nuisance to people so they just say simple phrases which don't mean anything to the beginner. it's better to point them to the sticky.
Symbols are also habits that get stuck into your muscle memory. This covers all manner of psychological autopilot bullshit you do subconsciously to save mental energy because you acknowledge a lot of study as drudgery.
Remember the hit movie "Click" starring Adam Sandler? Every time he came to a boring thing in his life he'd hit fast forward. Then the remote would start to auto fast forward through shit and that's what you brain does if you don't keep tabs on it and stay vigilant.
You gotta find that quantum skipping tendency in your thought process and interrupt it with some kind of conscious acknowledgement of the task.
>>2400229
>You gotta find that quantum skipping tendency in your thought process and interrupt it with some kind of conscious acknowledgement of the task.
this
basically, this is mindfulness. being mindful of what you're doing and not allowing it to be automatic.
it's funny when you notice how many things in your life are automatic. there was a day when, as the sun was going down, i flipped on the light switch in my room. the bulb had gone out so the light didn't come on. i flipped off the switch and continued doing stuff on my computer, saying to myself that it didn't really matter and i'd replace the light bulb soon. throughout the next hour, like three separate times i noticed it was getting dark and tried the switch, after each time realizing "oh, i already tried the switch, the bulb's out, i'm gonna replace it." it was just my automatic response to it getting dark in my room, which triggered me standing up and flipping on a switch without thinking. there is so much of this automatic stuff in our lives at different levels, this was just one of the cases where an external thing provided an abnormal obstacle which broke it.
>>2400212
>symbols are abstract stand-ins
That's about the only thing you said right. the rest is shit.
There is no such thing as non-symbol drawing. If you're drawing you're still using symbols, no matter what.
You may not be using symbols that convey directly the idea, rather you may be using symbols that add more meaning to each other when drawn in conjunction.
Its like when drawing a vase. you place an oval and that oval becomes an ellipse when place a line shooting up and that line become the vertical axis when you place another oval which becomes an ellipse. All of this becomes a base drawing. And all these simple symbols for the vase add more meaning to each other and the whole drawing as you progress.
You can not draw without symbols. You can however replace those symbols with more appropriate ones depending on your method of seeing and drawing.
That is why "symbol drawing" is the most stupidest thing utter by shit artists
>>2400300
>There is no such thing as non-symbol drawing.
you are fucking stupid m8
Oh fuck off, none of this semantic abstract bullshit has any relevance to actually learning to draw.
>>2400314
prove me wrong, bitch
>>2400329
ok
if i scribble a line on a paper on accident i'm not using a fucking symbol. even if someone reads it as a symbol, that has nothing to do with me or how i drew it, i didn't use a symbol, fucking retard.
>>2400329
also blind contour is the classic "don't symbol draw" noob exercise. how pleb are you?
>>2400335
The scribble is the symbol, you fucking moron. It's a recording of your thoughtless act of scribbling.
if you drew that scribble with no thought then that scribble becomes the symbol for your thoughtless scribble. Remember symbols are stand-ins for something. What's the scribble standing in for? Your fucking thoughtless scribble.
Try again you dumb bitch
>>2400336
A contour is a symbol, you dolt. It stands-in for the shape of the form your drawing.
>>2400300
you misunderstand what i mean. i think what you say here is mostly right, it's just our idea of what a symbol is that's different, we're basically arguing semantics.
let me try again to make this distinction between "symbol drawing" and "non-symbol drawing" in a better way:
a beginner is looking at something at an eye, to draw it. when he sees the eye, in his mind the idea of "eye" is evoked. this is generic concept of an eye as it exists in his mind. it's underdeveloped and resembles an abstract, symmetrical assembly of parts. then, he draws on his paper that concept from his mind. this is the distinction.
he's drawing the concept that's evoked in his mind, and NOT drawing the eye that he actually sees. in other words, he's drawing the concept that is *referred* to *by* the actual eye, the same concept which is evoked by the word "eye". and in a semiotic sense, he is drawing what the signifier (an actual eye) is signifying in his mind, and not drawing the signifier itself. this is what is meant by "symbol drawing".
despite any disagreements about the use of "symbol", do you at least get what i mean?
>>2400361
you're mistunderstanding the problem entirely.
What you're really pointing out is called delusion. It's the belief that your ideas, as they are will help do the drawing. The real problem is simply not knowing the more suited ideas, and thier associated symbols, that really will help to draw. The problem is not the symbols, it's not knowing the right symbolic language. The problem is not the symbols, it's the ignorance about them that is the problem.
Symbols will always be there. You cant put down a mark without it representing something. A line is a symbol. A patch of tone is a symbol. A shape is a symbol. The list goes on. It doesnt matter if the symbol conveys an idea directly or indirectly, it's still a symbol.
Every drawing starts with a symbol.
I've seen people keep saying you don't need shading to show form to properly draw an eye/etc whatever.
What do you do then, cross contour lines?
My eyes are still flat looking as shit, how do you make them appear 3D without adding in shading? Just a few cross contours?
>>2400351
>ibble with no thought then that scribble becomes the symbol for your thoughtless scribble.
when someone reads it
in drawing it, i am not using a symbol, and thats WHAT YOU FUCKIN SAID, STUPID
YOU'RE WRONG
APOLOGIZE NOW
>>2400387
you are partially right but again you again don't understand what i'm trying to say.
you're arguing that everything is a symbol are therefore it shouldn't be called "symbol drawing" because it only works toward confusing people, that in reality it's the amateur-symbols vs. the art-fundamentals-informed-symbols, yes? and that one should give actual solutions instead of just relegating advice to terms like that?
i'm not arguing against you, and i'm not saying the usage of symbol is right, because in "symbol drawing" i would say it's not used "correctly" (but it's very understandable nonetheless), and i would say your usage isn't right either (though it's also understandable). if you want to be this way, everything is a sign, not a symbol, a symbol is just one type of sign. a single line without context is most likely an indexical sign, not a symbolic one.
anyway, it seemed to me you were frustrated over what was meant by "symbol drawing" because by the words alone, it reflects a different meaning to you than what people really mean when they say it. all i was trying to do was explain what exactly was meant by it. what you're saying is basically correct, but you are simply taking a term and arguing about how it doesn't make sense in your own view of it, even though i'm pretty sure what people actually mean is pretty obvious.
>>2400357
you're just trying to win a semantic argument, i'm trying to get at some useful information here. fuck off.
when you draw a blind contour you are not conceptualizing the symbol of an eye while you go over it, because noobs cannot ground the mark into becoming a symbol without looking at the picture plane. Not-looking at what you're drawing is a classic remedy to break out of a symbol drawing rut and to ease blank-page anxiety.
i reiterate my question. how pleb are you? i bet you have a favorite pro wrestler
>>2400419
if the scribble came something it is a symbol of that something. It's not that hard.
>>2400300
>There is no such thing as non-symbol drawing. If you're drawing you're still using symbols, no matter what.
Careful not to split hairs so hard you split an atom, holy shit.
When someone refers to "symbol drawing" it has a certain meaning. It means drawing the standard and almost universal symbols. The usual beginner symbols you will see from almost every starter artist. They are usually simple and recognizable but not representative of reality.
It doesn't literally mean "drawing a representation of a thing" for fucks sake, stop being so reductionist.
Go fucking learn that words and phrases can have nuanced meanings based on context and that a meaning of a word can vary situationally, you fucking moron.
When an artist tells you you're chicken-scratching and you don't start crying and bitching that you're not a fowl nor do you have claws. When someone says 'ghost your lines' you don't assume they mean kill yourself and try to draw (though maybe you should). When someone says 'stop symbol drawing' it has a fucking meaning to it beyond the most obvious simplistic reduction you can conjure.
>>2400420
>you're arguing that everything is a symbol are therefore it shouldn't be called "symbol drawing"
No. My objection to the term is because of the fallacious idea it is connected to. My statement that every drawing uses symbols is to show how that fallacious idea gets symbol and drawing wrong. Their idea can't even get off the ground because of how bad they define what a symbol is and what a drawing is.
The only personal objection I would have with the term "symbol drawing" is that it's redundant. Letters and words are symbols for example. But we don't say "symbol writing," we just say "writing".
>everything is a sign, not a symbol,
If you want to say that, fine. But you'll still be in the same boat as before, only this time everyone would call it "sign drawing".
>a symbol is just one type of sign. a single line without context is most likely an indexical sign, not a symbolic one.
No. Sign or symbol, it doesn't matter. They both do the same thing here. They stand in for an idea. That means it refers back to an idea. It can do this directly or indirectly, by itself or with the help of others. That also means that a sign or symbol has to be learned in order to understand the idea it is refering to. Thus making certain signs or symbols better at conveying an idea than others. That is what artists learn.
>anyway, it seemed to me you were frustrated over what was meant by "symbol drawing" because by the words alone, it reflects a different meaning to you than what people really mean when they say it.
No. Thier whole idea is fallacious because of how it works. They describe the same act in two different ways and then try to tell you they are completely different acts, and that one of them inevitably causes bad drawing.
>all i was trying to do was explain what exactly was meant by it.
Yes, and what was meant was wrong. You and them are taking all the pieces of the problem and putting them together in the wrong way. It doesnt work that way.
>>2400421
You're the only one here playing semantics. I defined symbol one way, by its invention. I defined it in its most broad use. It is simply a representation. And I added that they can work together to form an hierarchy to represent more complex ideas.
You keep getting confused because you dont have a good understanding of what it is you're trying to explain.
>>2400429
>certain meaning
That certain meaning has it all wrong.
>>2400534
my man, you are a skilled and persistent shitposter.
>They describe the same act in two different ways and then try to tell you they are completely different acts, and that one of them inevitably causes bad drawing.
but if you are serious, from this it seems you still don't understand what is meant by symbol drawing. it's not a false dichotomy fueled by magical thinking. i'm sorry i was unable to elucidate the concept. until you learn what is actually meant by symbol drawing, there is no argument because what you're saying is only tangentially related.
>>2400579
You people use "symbol drawing" to quell the masses of shitty artists learning to draw because you dont know what you're doing. You dont understand what is really happening and so you use shit that only sounds good.
Name me at least one source on symbol drawing and I'll show you how you get it wrong.
>op doesn't reply to the posts ACTUALLY helping him
>>2400604
no. it's been explained, you don't understand it. we can't argue if you don't understand the terms of the argument, so first prove that, since thus far you've only misinterpreted it.
why are you guys still bumping this faggot thread? This is the second time he's made one and it's clear that he's either trolling or beyond help. Ignore it.
>>2400243
holy shit man you gave me an epiphany
i'm bored with my life because for so much of it, i'm on autopilot; i'm hardly aware of what goes on around me
i guess that's also why i don't really feel as if i've improved much, if at all, since i started seriously trying to get good at art since last October
thank you anon
>>2393197
I agree
the term "symbol drawing" seems to originate in the same vein as all these other identity crisis movements that keep sprouting up. Usually used by generic artists on those with some sort of distinguishable style and solid identity.
>>2400606
You know you can't explain it any better because you don't understand what it is you're talking about. You know that what's really your problem.
You can't even cite one source that you can use to back up your arguement. And that's probably because you either don't have one or you didnt read it all that well.
OP fell for the meme
>>2393197
dont know if op is here or not anymore but fuck it.
the moment you stop drawing symbols, you still suck all the dick at drawing, and nothing but drawing more is going to fix that,
however, the frustrateing part of /ic/ is they assume every single person sucks and its their first post, so when you stop drawing symbols you still look like you are, and they will tell you its symbol shit.
symbol drawing only applies to someone who never read the definition of symbol drawing, because the moment you read it and understand what it means, your not symbol drawing if you don't want to.
the best way to kill off symbol drawing is doing real construction underneath that way you don't fall back into it without realizing.
tldr
everyone who calls your shit symbols can be ignored.
>>2399241
These are the same thing.
You need to draw what is actually there.
Building it with forms IS drawing what you 'see'. You just need to learn what the hell you're actually seeing first. That's most of what art is - learning how what the fuck you're looking at works.
People don't spend hours on end studying skeletons because they want to be medical illustrators, they do it because they need to understand that shit.
>>2399560
>Wouldnt it be easier to explain what you're suppose to see?
No, because that takes years of fucking study, which you could have been doing instead of complaining that anonymous strangers aren't giving you a free art mentorship.
This thread is toxic... Why do I keep coming back?
>>2396527
>>2400428
You're literally wrong it's amazing how fucking stubbornly stupid you are
Symbols do not symbolize themselves! They point to other things! I know you think youre being clever but you're still not understanding what I'm saying about the process of creating the drawing versus reading the drawing after it's done. You're so dumb I don't even expect you to understand how dumb you are, so just trust me
>>2400604
You are so mad! Hahaha
>>2400567
Is that so? Then figure it out on your own :^)
>>2400849
You are so literally stupid that you have to shitpost.
>>2400851
I already have, amigo
>>2393197
isn't "symbol drawing" an invention from that quack of betty edwards?
>>2401017
yes
>>2401017
no, it's an established term in art and anyone but contrarian retards on /ic/ know exactly what is meant by it. A child-like drawing that lacks observational skills to depict 3 dimensional forms, isntead of flat, 2 dimensional symbols that are meant to represent said forms.
>>2396562
I'm at the same place you are. We just gotta keep drawing bra. There is no magic word to make it happen. This isn't like learning a piece of computer software. This is hammering a nail. Gotta keep hammering bra.
>>2393293
but you need the lines and cubes
>>2401097
Established by who? Mediocre artists like you who just want act like they know a thing or two?
>>2401097
care to share an authoritative source to support your bullshit claim?
because "symbol" drawing is a buzzword found all over the place in that infamous "right side of the brain" pamphlet
>>2401120
drawabox is ran by a boring artist who went a couple of years to some rinky-dink hole in the wall art-school. It's like as if somebody here got "gud" drawing loomis or whatever and then immediately turned around and started teaching it to noobs.
His lessons aren't his own. And he doesn't contribute any special insight. He just whines about made up shit and plays to the crowd.
>>2401129
I think what they are trying to talk about is delusions. They just want a buzzword to gather around, so theu make up shit.
>>2401151
So? It's still a decent resource for anyone grasping the basics.
>>2401184
yes, it's good for hobbyist that want to fit in.
>>2401202
sure thing bud
>>2401210
well, it's true
The thing is that symbol drawing is what leads to a good 80% of mistakes
And symbol drawing could be anything
Or it could just be bad construction
>this whole thread
