Despite the fact that the rules state not to be insulting and instead be constructive with your criticism on here, I'm not surprised that no one here seems to know how to do anything but be a douche to one another, especially people who are very clearly beginners.
So what does constructive criticism mean to you, d/ic/ks? Does it mean yelling "Loomis" and nothing else? Does it mean telling someone they suck, their art is garbage, that they should give up? Does it mean telling someone what areas they need to work on, and possibly how to go about it?
It's obvious what my opinion on this is. I'm not saying everyone needs to compliment sandwich every piece they see. If someone basically rubbed their ass on a piece of paper and is acting like it's God's Gift, then yeah tear them down..
But if it's a beginning artist (or even an advanced artist) and they're asking for advice, crits, what looks off, don't tell them it sucks and nothing else. Don't tell them to brush up on fundamentals without explaining what part of the drawing makes you say that (is the head mis-shapen? figures too flat? Etc).
Someone told me I needed to brush up on my facial structure on a pic I posted.
A different person told me my drawing looked "Fucked up" and nothing else.
Which comment do you think helped me to imrpove the areas I was struggling on?
>>2376044
>Does it mean telling someone they suck,
Yes. Look, I know it's not nice, but the foundation of criticism is pointing out flaws. "It sucks" isn't great criticism by any measure, but sometimes there's little else to same. What do you say when everything is wrong? And some people just need to be told their work is bad to break through their ego and give them the kick in the ass to work on their art. Some people need that harshness, and this is 4chan, the perfect environment for it.
>their art is garbage, that they should give up?
Obviously this is in no way constructive. The thing about sucking...everyone sucks at some point. Sucking at something is the starting place, but telling someone to give up isn't constructive. You can't get good at anything if you give up.
>Does it mean telling someone what areas they need to work on, and possibly how to go about it?
This is the best way to go about it.
>But if it's a beginning artist (or even an advanced artist) and they're asking for advice, crits, what looks off, don't tell them it sucks and nothing else. Don't tell them to brush up on fundamentals without explaining what part of the drawing makes you say that (is the head mis-shapen? figures too flat? Etc).
Ok. What do you say when everything is wrong? This is why Loomis became such a catch-all response, it's far, far easier than typing out a detailed response about why everything is wrong(especially when newbies are so common). And it can be really, really discouraging to anyone new to the hobby to get some essay length criticism about how everything they're doing is wrong. Loomis is a pretty shitty response, but at least it gives a direction and the implied criticism that comes with it - "Your fundamentals are bad."
>>2376062
While I agree that sometimes people's egos are a little too inflated and need to be taken down, I see it said to absolute beginners who aren't confident in their skills and just want some genuine feedback on if they're on the right path or not. While I'm sure you, anon, would give a bit more help than just "It sucks." I see a lot of comments that are literally the insult and nothing else. No encouragement to start over, no push towards fundamentals, just an insult and that's it, and for fleding artists that's a little harsh when they don't deserve it y'know?
When everything is wrong it's still better to say "Everything is off, work on your fundamentals" not, literally only "Loomis." It's an /ic/ meme at this point so many don't take a single word response very seriously and try it out. I understand your point of view on it and I agree that it's quicker, and more concise but it still doesn't really give much feedback.
I'll drop it on the "Loomis" response however as I do see your point and it isn't really that harmful unlike some of the other comments.
>>2376044
I'm going to be a little blunt on this, but I only accept constructive criticism from someone at my level or higher, or someone that really really knows the subject at hand by backing what he says with precision.
I already know what people say to this, "but you don't need to draw well to give good criticism" and that's maybe true, but it's something I just don't accept on principle, I will always value the better artist's view than the shitty stickman drawing guy. If I want an advice on a certain car maneuverability, I will take the driver's advice over the guy that doesn't drive but knows his stuff about cars.
>>2376366
This is what I truly can't understand on /ic/ though, artists shitting on each other when we are so few, instead of helping each other and growing together, and don't tell me this is some Utopian power of friendship bullshit. This attitude is just bringing /ic/ down, there's around 4, maybe 5 good artists here, and there's shitpost everytime they show their work.
same for Firez, I mean the dude is just trying to improve, and there's constant trolling and shitstorms at every post he does. I just don't understand it, the guy is doing the same thing you do, like art the same way you do, why try to bring him down ? this is why many of the good artists leave, and the upcoming artists from here will leave too, or at least lurk only.
>>2376464
I see your point on not accepting crits from those of a lower level than you but I think that's a closed minded approach since you don't need to know anatomy to know a picture looks off for some reason, so I hope you're at least open minded if someone says "Can't place it but something is off." If an amateur can pick up on it I feel like thats more reason to consider it honestly.
I honestly lurk most of the time. I only just started posting recently because of issues like this that I see. I'm all for "no mercy" when it comes to critiques but there's a big difference between tearing into a piece that needs itand just being a dick so you can feel superior, which is what most people seem to do here. Just because you're a better artist doesn't mean you're above being a good person to beginners who deserve the help (Again excluding the entitled, overly-confident newbies that think their 2 minute doodle is worth $500 )
>>2376044
Constructive Criticism is something that is defamatory enough to strike a chord, but useful enough to give me insight into my artistic weaknesses.
>>2376480
>I see your point on not accepting crits from those of a lower level than you
>but I think that's a closed minded approach since you don't need to know anatomy to know a picture looks off for some reason
>tfw /b/tards invaded the board and nobody knows how to redline anymore
>tfw all keep throwing le spoonfeed meme and le Loomis meme at beginners
>tfw literally there's no critique at all in the artwork/critique board.
>>2376526
I can respect someone's opinion and understand their point of view while still disagreeing with it, idiot. I can understand why people like hot sauce but I still don't like it, does that make me a hypocrite too?
>tfw you think its /b/tards invading the board when its just normal people who don't realize what 4chan used to be
>tfw loomis was always a meme
>tfw
I can't speak from pre 2008 but this board has never been particularly great at giving critiques but at least you'd actually get some kind of direction instead of just "Lol this sucks." even if it was harsh.
>>2376510
nicely put anon
>>2376464
>but I only accept constructive criticism from someone at my level or higher, or someone that really really knows the subject
this, if someone who has no idea about painting talks to me about my paintings I stand there and just nod my head until they're rude/offensive, I used to be incredibly polite, until I realized that if they never plan on hanging any art, let alone mine, in their house, there's no point to stand there and let someone shit talk you when they have no clue what they're talking about
like people who've never sold a painting in their life telling me I should have done this or that and I would have sold more...like nigga, do you want to be my agent then?
I started to get really blunt with my answers and line of questioning to them in regards to it all...someone once said "you should have painted someone famous" and the painting was a series of paintings of a famous singer, I just stated "she is famous" and buddy kept plugging away at what I should have done
My girlfriend loves everything I do, so I don't take much from her unless I can coax something more detailed about why she loves it, or what she loves about it, she never has anything bad to say so I press her for something that could be better. She's really good with colors and mixing and blending as a make up artist so I trust her, but she's never really seen much live art besides mine. She's cool with answering my "why" questions but at face value there isn't much in her initial opinions.
My mom who also paints, but paints in cheap acrylics, which is a fucking shame as she is actually talented. Well she always tells me "it's dark"...I recently used 5 tubes of 200 ml white paint in 2 paintings and she didn't have shit to say lol so she's basically auto ignored.
My dad, I show him just to be open about my art, I don't really listen to him because I don't care either way. I just share it with him so we have a bond.
>>2376526
Hmm.
>>2378771
I also get stupid and autistic about acrylic painters who paint real life shit, and are crappy pricing their works at like $500 for a 12"x18" which cost them $40 in supplies. I've seen people who've never sold a painting price their stuff $1,000 and upwards for acrylic paintings that are incredibly mundane and show no skill. When my oil paintings are compared to acrylic stuff and price is talked about I get autistic as fuck....like when I spend hundreds of dollars on oil paint and my paintings are priced at a point where I'm simply trying to double the money I spent so I can double my output, and some asshole talks to me about acrylic paintings that are priced higher, when they're smaller and uglier, full autism.
I have no problem with someone saying it sucks, but if they can't explain why when asked then it's a problem. I don't like certain things, and I have reasons why, all I'm looking for is a reason, if someone can't go further than a reason as to why that's fine. But I do enjoy the talks I've had with people about what they see in the paintings, or what they think I was trying to do, or what it means to them. I don't get upset if someone can explain themselves and really enjoy the back and forth, even if it hurts a little inside when I realize someone sees it in a certain way, I know I have to accept how they feel about it if it's honest on their part.
I think it's funny that my girlfriend tries to tell me what she sees in the paintings, like that she thinks, or looks for things in paintings. Like if I paint a sky she will find shapes in the clouds. I appreciate her view because it's a view others have and a way they look at art, and will look at my art. It gives me an insight to what others expect from art.
If someone wants to talk about my art, then I'm open, good or bad, but I expect them to actually have something to say and to answer questions I have as to why they feel/say what they say.
>>2378841
Why would an acrylic painting that small cost 40 bucks in supplies? Also post what you mean by these mediocre acrylic paintings.
>>2378853
>Why would an acrylic painting that small cost 40 bucks in supplies?
because you actually bought real acrylic paint and not dollar store shit
>Also post what you mean by these mediocre acrylic paintings.
http://www.conceptpopart.com/services/original-art/
>Size: 36×48 Price: $1200
...a canvas that size isn't worth $100, and the paint isn't worth $100...so where does the extra $1000 come from?
reallygrindsmygearspetergriffen.jpg
it fucks with the way I have to price my work because I can't make it out to be cheap by pricing something at say $500 when I spent $250 on canvas/paint when all I want to do is double my output, I just want to price it in a way that I'm able to sell 1 painting, then paint 2 more
I can't price something at $500 when this asshole spent 1/20th to make something that's not overly skilled in it's creation and prices it for $700 more...
>>2378878
m8, I have Daler Rowney acrylic, which seems to be the most popular, and no way it would cost that much, I don't think it would even cost you a buck for a 12 by 18 piece.
>>2378889
well then fellow, I'll be even more pissed off the next time I see an acrylic POS priced at over $200...
What pisses me off is the lack of humility, I understand my paintings and my skill level aren't at a certain level, I know I can be better, that's something I accept. I believe it's at least worth what I paid for it, and the high end being maybe more than double what I paid for the oil/canvas. I am also exploring auctions and getting an agent to let someone else do that and deal with that. I have gone to like local markets, but I brought things that were competing with walmart when it came to price, yet it's original work, I understood the people who would be there wouldn't be buying a 4 foot by 3 foot oil painting, it was small to medium sized pieces painted with acrylics and a lot of it was stuff I bought at a local thrift outlet where the supplies were priced by the pound. I was happy to take $5 for almost anything there because the amount of money I spent was cents on the dollar.
As an example I can go to the thrift outlet, get 5-10 canvases or boards to paint on, find some cheap acrylic paint and brushes and make a stencil and pump out 5-10 "paintings" in 6-8 hours, maybe less for around $10...and it's better work than these "artists" who produce 1 acrylic painting in 3 months and sell it for $450...it drives me nuts when my work is put into the same context or category.
Pic related, "basic" acrylic in the back...the work is high school/hobbyist level...
>>2378841
>I've seen people who've never sold a painting price their stuff $1,000 and upwards for acrylic paintings that are incredibly mundane and show no skill.
If you ask for $10 for a shitty painting people are going to just assume it's a shitty painting.
I bet if someone did that long enough some rich new-age retard might well come along and think it actually has value because its priced so high.
We have almost no actual metric for value in art anymore.
Imagine that. Making a grand on your shitty painting because some asshole doesn't know better, just because you can bluff your way into making people think it has meaning. This is basically how modern artists are born.
>>2378937
>just because you can bluff your way into making people think it has meaning.
As I said, my girlfriend tries to find shapes and things in the paint that simply isn't there...it's just a way of thinking people have about art, like that they have to find something in it.
>If you ask for $10 for a shitty painting people are going to just assume it's a shitty painting.
yeah which is what bothers me about shitty acrylic paintings being priced at hundreds or thousands of dollars because it devalues anyone who's reasonably pricing their oil paintings
I think it's insane to price your work at over $1,000 outside of a gallery or auction or show/exhibit, like summer festivals and shit people will have booths set up where everything is over $1,000...that's nuts to me, and nuts enough to others as those people will spent the weekend there and never sell anything.
I want people to be able to afford my paintings, I need them to A) like it B) say good things about it C) show it off for me in their house/office/wherever they hang it
Where I live, literally 1 person of the roughly 330,000 owns a ferrari...I'm not delusional in thinking rich people will have dinner parties and have a pissing contest over who spent the most money on a painting over a 6 course lobster dinner.
>>2376044
my thoughts:
Constructive criticism has to destroy the artist's ego, so that they can actually improve.
Too many artists have these crippling egos that make them feel as if they don't have to work as hard in order to improve.
If an artist is asking for criticism, but seeking approval, I see no harm in humbling them.
That being said, there's a difference between putting someone down and being blunt.
Absolute beginners need to be redirected to the beginners thread. It's a lot more helpful than saying "you suck" or "you need to work on [every art fundamental]."
There's a bunch of art books and shit there, so they should read them.
If you are serious about improving, be open to criticism. All the other sites are dead and gone, and the pros are hidden behind a giant paywall.
The art community may be completely fucked, but art itself isn't dead yet.
The key to artistic success is individualism and humility, Once you start obsessing over style, and chasing after popularity, you become one of those annoying bumblr people.
If you're an artist who creates exactly what you want to, and you're as skilled as the pros, then you will become popular, and you will get jobs.
..Or you can just con rich people into giving you money like most modern artists, but that requires knowing the right people.
>>2378922
>Did you paint that?
How often does /ic/ get this?
Even when you explicitly say you did it people still say this shit. I'm not even very good, if I was gonna fucking lie I'd pick better art to claim as my own.
>>2376044
I think that pointing out a flaw in a piece can be inherently helpful. It can be difficult to see what is "wrong" with something you drew, so even just having someone point it out to you can be inherently constructive. I am talking about specific criticisms, not just "your art is shit" sort of thing.
>>2379027
>Once you start obsessing over style, and chasing after popularity, you become one of those annoying bumblr people.
I just wanted to be successful. Now I realise my art is garbage.
Look at it this way
In the past, and I'm talking before the First Temperate Neolithic age before humans even smelted ore, there was no "criticism"
If you sucked at something, you starved to death or were killed. End of story.
The very fact that "criticism" exists today as a buffer between living and dying, and might not even be related to your livelihood at all, is evidence that we have it really fucking easy. Like what's worse, an opinion or getting fucked to death by a saber tooth tiger? What are "mean words" even compared to getting your head smashed in with a caveman's rock? They hardly even exist. If you can't handle something that doesn't physically manifest on any level, you're a massive pussy
>>2379027
>Too many artists have these crippling egos
all artists I know think everything they do is shit, even though they're good.
>>2381979
By your logic, all criticism is worthless.
By your logic, your entire comment is worthless.
>>2381984
You're starting to get it
It isn't worth shit, but we have the luxury of MAKING it worth something. We have the luxury of dedicating time to things and ideas that objectively do not matter, and that's pretty great.
If you're so affected by something like this "criticism" thing we've invented that you can't stand receiving it, this imaginary atom of an imaginary ghost called "ego" playing this game of make-believe called "culture", you're too soft to exist.
>>2376062
"it sucks" is not constructive criticism in any way
>What do you say when everything is wrong
you explain the glaring issues with the work and what the person can do to fix them (if possible) or what they can work on to get better at the things they do wrong. if you aren't capable of giving good criticism that tells somebody WHY something "sucks", then let somebody else do it who can.
the only way people can learn and improve is if they can understand WHAT it is they're doing wrong. telling somebody their piece sucks doesn't benefit anybody
>>2381984
Nothing that doesn't affect your ability to keep breathing matters, and that's only if you really think your life is so crucial to begin with
It's all a game. A no-contact game.
If you want to be serious at the game and be a better player, then that's fine, take the "criticism" and use it to be better. If the game makes you cry, though, you're a baby
>>2379027
>Constructive criticism has to destroy the artist's ego, so that they can actually improve.
this is an attitude i really hate. the majority of people actually serious about art are the opposite of egotistic about it and instead suffer from not having confidence in what they do. the majority of the Ego Artist stuff you see are teenagers on DA and people who never really grow out of being a teenager. struggling with art and feeling inadequate is one of the most common traits among people who are actually serious about it. this idea that every non-expert artist is a walking ego who needs to have their heart torn in two pieces is a really damaging and unnecessary belief. most people aren't, and plenty are held back to varying extents due to feelings of inferiority and inadequacy. every artist at every stage benefits from being able to have confidence in themselves and in the process of what they're doing. spending all of your time painting and drawing doubting yourself and every action you're making is just going to be produce arguably worse results with less learned. there's a huge difference between people having confidence and people thinking their art is better than it really is
>>2381998
>Nothing that doesn't affect your ability to keep breathing matters
this is such horse shit it isn't even funny. peoples' mental state greatly affects quality of life and ability to perform. you can't treat people like shit and not expect them to be affected by it. some people are affected less than others, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean that abuse and suffering are things people should accept "because lol you're still breathing!!"
>>2381979
>Look at it this way
>In the past, and I'm talking before the First Temperate Neolithic age before humans even smelted ore, there was no "criticism"
>If you sucked at something, you starved to death or were killed. End of story.
also wanted to add that this argument is inherently wrong. you would be making accurate statements if humans were a solitary species, but we aren't. humans are a social species and have succeeded so wildly because of that. humans succeeded in the early times because we grouped together to help each other succeed. some people were surely not great hunters but had other things they could do. you didn't starve just because you weren't arnold schwarzenegger out fighting bears in the wild. even lowly skilled and capable people are useful for something, especially the farther back in time you go.
>>2382013
You're still a slave to your ego, but the door isn't locked. Whether or not you walk out is entirely up to you
We don't have to agree.
>>2382034
Even your frustration at my ideas are an illusion
To what cosmic affect is this exchange? What are we after here?
>>2382052
why am i not surprised you're a nihilist
You're all wasting your time by talking about this meta bullshit instead of drawing.
People on this website are usually rude and obnoxious and you shouldn't take anything written here seriously (not that there can't be good discussions on things, but talking about receiving crit instead of just drawing and trying to figure out what you're doing wrong is a waste of time).
Constructive criticism to me is a waste of time because I want to do things on my own, figure them out on my own, improve myself on my own; not use the outside influence of other people I probably don't like and whose opinions I don't care for.
The truth is if you're this concerned about receiving proper crit and everyone dealing with you in a nice and kind manner means you'll probably never be as good as you want because you can't get over yourself.
It's not that I think people should treat you like shit. The people that shit on other new artists are awful people, and insulting others in the hopes that they improve is the wrong way to go about helping people get better. It's more the principle of caring what the others think in the first place; this is why /ic/ is a waste of time if you're interested in improving: you're inherently basing your progress on others and not focusing on your art. Become more self aware and just draw.
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