Is anyone else on here unable to visualize in their mind? If you were to close your eyes and picture a red triangle, can you see it? Which of the numbered thumbnails in the attached image best represents what you see? Do you see complete darkness?
If you dont know, this is known as aphantasia. A quick google search will get you more info if you want to look into it.
As someone who wants to work professionally in the art field, the inability to store an "image bank" in my mind of references has been incredibly frustrating. I have been attempting to compensate by focusing on proportion, but is there any other way?
Also, if anyone else does have this, how has it affected your learning progress/career as an artist? Do you find that you have shitty spacial awareness and find it difficult to think 3D while drawing 2D?
I cant see anything with my eyes closed
>>2350182
do you feel like its hindered you in progress/ how do you combat it? Especially in regards to drawing w/o reference
>>2350180
Lol, pretty sure you can't just project images into the black space when your eyes are closed. Perhaps when attempting wake induced lucid dreaming, or while on psychedelics, but that has more to do with being in a credulous state.
I think there's a difference between what you can imagine visually, ie, your 'mind's eye', actually creating visible images. A red triangle is easy to imagine but you can't actually see it. Can you? CAN YOU?
Cause if this is a thing, I've gotten pretty far as a 1/6 on that test.
>>2350186
no i mean how can any light get into my eyes if theyre closed?
remembering an image has nothing to do with seeing an image
>>2350180
Also, wikipedia tells me aphantasia is merely hypothesized.
Anyways, how long have you been drawing OP? Do you practice drawing and deconstructing lots of different stuff?
>>2350189
This. I mean, I'm pretty sure this picture could in no way test for aphantasia. I can picture a face in my mind quite well, but it in no way affects what I'm actually seeing, eyes closed, or open.
Your third eye vision is broke
>>2350188
>>2350187
>>2350189
>>2350196
People can picture images in their mind. For what it's worth, i can't remember images either.
Like, I just looked over at a plant, stared at it and tried remembering it in my head. I can't.
Same thing goes for peoples faces. i can't picture my parents face in my mind, nor anyone elses. I honestly can't see what they look like. I can describe their traits to you but I can't /remember/ it.
sorry im bad at describing, heres a helpful 2 min video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpK6ZJea9fk
>>2350191
Research is new, but I've known that I've had this for as long as I can remember, just had no idea other people had it. I've been drawing since I was a kid and am now a freshman in college studying illustration. Attached a pic of my favorite completed drawing that I've done.
>>2350197
how 2 fix tho
>>2350191
Forgot the second part of your question. What do you suggest to deconstruct? Normally I try to draw random forms to help think in 3D but I struggle a lot with it. Observing and simplifying objects isn't too hard for me, if thats what you mean by deconstruction.
>>2350232
Yeah, I generally just use reference pics or draw from life. Im a whiz at observational work, but I can't really draw for shit without it, because I just can't remember what it looks like.
Especially concerning the human body, I've been trying to learn measuring proportions and understand anatomy because its easy to remember facts about bone structure and muscles etc.
Do you have any tips getting better at thinking in 3D that I could apply?
pic related, observational mirror self portrait work in class
>>2350205
Mind's eye 'images' are kind of ambiguous to describe. Someone who is really 'spiritual' and a 'creative' and all that bullshit would probably tell you that they see it really vividly with lots of details. Someone who is honest and realistic would probably tell you they aren't sure they actually see anything, but maybe.. or maybe they can 'feel' it, or maybe it's part image, part idea. I'm just not sure I buy that aphantasia is real. It seems like people just describing experience differently.
Could you, say, draw your father from memory? How accurate would it be?
Wait hold the fucking phone. If this was the case then you could only draw what youre looking at only. I mean if youve eaten a orange or banana you dont know ones a sphere and ones shaped like a dick? That the colors are orange and yellow? You cant even symbol draw a fruit? This doesnt make sense
>>2350205
>i can't picture my parents face in my mind, nor anyone elses. I honestly can't see what they look like. I can describe their traits to you but I can't /remember/ it.
wow, holy shit. I don't know what it's like, but I can kind of see what you mean by the way you describe it. sounds like something vaguely related to prosopagnosia. you're like on the opposite end of the spectrum from this nigga >>2347630
one more thing we take for granted to be thankful for I guess.
>>2350245
For me it comes down to a simple, I've asked people "can you see an image with your eyes closed" and they reply yes
I cannot do that. Try as I might its darkness.
I cant speak as to what other people see, I just know that supposedly its more than just black.
I do understand what you mean by "feel it"- the closest i can get to something in my mind is sometimes I can
If i were to draw my father from memory, I would recall back a list of words how i describe my dad eg: bushy brows, scar, short hair, soul patch, roman nose etc.
>>2350250
I can symbol draw a fruit, because i know their traits. I've seen a fruit before and i can remember that say, it was round, it was the color orange, that its smooth with texture. But those are just adjectives i can list. as I've said before
>>i can't picture my parents face in my mind, nor anyone elses. I honestly can't see what they look like. I can describe their traits to you but I can't /remember/ it.
Does that help to explain it?
>>2350256
Its a weird thing to describe to people who have the ability! And wow, that guy is incredible!
Wait people can actually picture things in their mind? I can't imagine any faces or anything else I've seen in my head except very vaguely, though if I see it of course I recognize it. When I draw from imagination I never see it, I just construct it and try to remember the shapes that existed and any other details
>>2350258
I'm the same as you, I see darkness it's impossible for me to imagine something in my head, I just remember details and descriptions. I didn't know people could actually see detailed pictures in their head
>>2350180
I see a sharper version of #2.
When it comes to more complex things, though, I can remember bits and pieces of an image but can't hold the image for very long. When I deconstruct something down to the way I'd draw it, or abstracted in some way such as lines wrapping around the form, it becomes easier to remember.
>>2350258
>and they reply yes
Nyeeeaaah, but they're wrong, it's just imagination.
>its more than just black
Definitely untrue.
>>2350259
>very vaguely
Yes, exactly. It's like the object is 'there' in some sense but it's almost unintepretable.
Maybe if normies just attempted drawing they would realize they can't see jack shit in their mind.
>>2350259
can you see shapes in your mind? some people just can't see details. theres varying degrees of aphantasia.
>>2350260
Yeah man. I first discovered I was missing it as a kid when I was told to count sheep to fall asleep. Im like, yo what sheep?
>>2350262
I can only hold afterimages sometimes, if Im staring at something and it changes suddenly. But even then it's just remembering that something was different before.
>>2350264
but seeing things in your mind IS imagination. You are imagining something in your head. I can't imagine an image, therefore i technically am lacking imagination in that sense.
Idk bro. I've heard plenty people say otherwise, are you sure maybe you're just not seeing what other people are? I mean after all... some of us just cant see jack shit. Did you watch the video I posted?
>>2350258
Not really, i can describe thier traits but cant draw it with 100% accuracy. Because you know i havent stared or study thier face to draw. Youre expecting a 6 with closed eyess which i only think is possible if your dreaming or on drugs. Honestly the chart cant even describe what our mind eyes sees. My mind eyes sees the big picture and it very vague. I use my actual eyes to fill in the rest. Again if you know the basic shape and feeling of the fruit, draw it and fill the rest with detail with your actual eyes
>>2350271
I can't say if the image is correct or not bc I dont know what people see in their minds. I just know that I personally, can only see darkness.
>if you know the basic shape and feeling of the fruit, draw it and fill the rest with detail with your actual eyes
But that goes back to either relying on memory or reference, and Im talking about learning to draw without reference
also guys, im going to bed. keep posting I'll get back to you later
>>2350180
If you mean actually seeing them, it's physically impossible iirc.
If you however mean, "Your minds eye", then I'm a strong 6.
I have about 4-12 vivid dreams every year, and about 1-2 of those are lucid.
I can easily 'visualize' very large and complex structures, designs, perspective, characters etc. Sound is also pretty easy.
This is probably a byproduct of creating worlds, characters and stories when going to sleep every night before going to bed since I was a kid.
Although I've started being very analytical of my minds eye and dreams. I've noticed there tends to be sort of a 'noise' like nature to them. Nothing extreme, but it's like things are look 'softer' than in real life.
But it's like this for everyone, right?
Although I'm still not that good at art.
>>2350264
>Maybe if normies just attempted drawing they would realize they can't see jack shit in their mind.
being able to see something vividly with the the mind's eye is a separate issue from having the capability to transcribe that image to physical media with good fidelity. I imagine that being a good artist is a combination of the two - good skill as well as an extensive mental library of objects/lighting/shadows/shades/concepts.
>>2350244
is that nose a sled?
>>2350180
Funny enough I just tried closing my eyes and got 1
Trier to think about something with eyes open and could imagine hands, bodies, and machinery.
The point is stop bullshit and go back to drawing.
>>2350280
>This is probably a byproduct of creating worlds, characters and stories when going to sleep every night before going to bed since I was a kid.
I too used to do that before going to sleep, and I had plenty of lucid dreams, now in the last 2 years since I have a normie job and draw in my free time, I never gave time to sleep enough :( . I literally had like 2-4 dreams in a entire year, and they were not even lucid.
If you go to articles on Wikipedia about all those things (aphantasia, mind's eye, visualization) it looks like seeing figures can occur under influence of strong psychedelics.
Ergo you need to have your mind fucked by drugs and normal people don't see shapes when they close their eyes.
I personally think that anyone who claims seeing things is above or schizophrenic.
Maybe "meditation" is the key. That or some kind of psychedelic drug like DMT or that Ayahuasca shit or whatever. I don't like the idea of doing drugs but...
>>2350280
How do you use your minds eye?
I've read up on people saying its also like a muscle that needs to be exercised. Do you have any suggestions on /how/ to see?
>>2350289
I imagine if you were small enough, you could sled on my nose yes.
>>2350292
This isn't bullshit IMO, bc it impacts an artists capabilities. To be able to recall something you saw and then draw it is an important skill- one I lack. Trying to get that skill sounds like a worthwhile task to me.
>>2350301
I've 2 lucid dreams before, and I dream regularly. Im pretty sure I can see images when i dream, because when I wake up I can recall "we were in a dark antique shop, there was a creepy store clerk and weird spiders" So I figure if I can see images while i dream, there must be some way to see them while im conscious.
>>2350442
The majority of people can see images, with their minds eye or whatever you want to call it, while not on drugs. Just start askin family members or friends or something. Most people think its weird when you CANT picture something,
>>2350532
Why do you say meditation is key? I have seen people suggest it.
I've considered acid, and Im not entirely opposed to drugs but I would be afraid of fucking something up internally and being unable to change it back. It wouldnt do me much good if the only time I could see stuff was while ON acid, but if it was a permanent side effect, I'd probably do it.
I don't believe any of this. How can you visualize a banana or an orange in your mind, but not a red triangle?
This is silly, and it sounds too much just like another intent for people to feel special.
>>2350180
Relevant enough to this, I have a problem with my working memory due to dyslexia. This makes it quite difficult to draw from life as I don't remember the line shape etc very accurately.
Practise has helped me not make it a big deal, so these issues aren't something that is going to make it impossible to draw, just something that needs a bit more work.
>>2350692
A follow up to that is mindful meditation. I think it has helped me a lot with my drawing.
>>2350689
The issue is I have a LACK of visual memory. I cannot SEE memories. I can tell you from experience that an orange is round, is the color orange, and has a smooth texture but i can't visualize it in my head. Its just a list of traits.
The clearest I got to explaining it was with this
>i can't picture my parents face in my mind, nor anyone elses. I honestly can't see what they look like. I can describe their traits to you but I can't /remember/ it.
>>2350694
Do you do it before drawing?
>>2350180
I can easily imagine and maintain the image of objects but when dealing with faces or big scenarios the image gets kinda foggy.
>imagining objects/stuff
I can see them perfectly and even move them in my head/change colours/change the values, so a 6
>imagining people
Imagining bodies is okay, i can still get to a 6 but as soon as i try to imagine faces/hair, i start to lose focus, so between a 3-5
>large scenery
Fog and more fog, like my field of view is even more restricted than normal, if i focus on a point i can still see their details but i end up losing the rest of the image. It can vary wildely from 2 to 6.
Maybe it's because my visual image library is not big enough, i tend to focus too much on little details while forgetting the big picture even in real life while looking at stuff.
>>2350710
Yes! THIS is what i talking about. For whatever reason, some people just refuse to believe that most people can do this. Probably because they never realized they had something missing in the first place.
If you dont mind my asking, when you are imagining an object do you just think "Ok, i want to see a box" and you can see it? Like what are your actions? I just dont really know much about it and some people say its a skill you can acquire so i want to know what people who can do it, do.
>>2350718
To me, bringing up specific objects feels like accessing any other memory, like a fact or date. Sometimes novel objects, or combinations of objects arise spontaneously.
Single objects initially seem to arise in the center of my field of view, and roughly a foot out in front of me. A whole scene would fill my field of view as I might see it in real life (in terms of scale and perspective) Scenes can be moved through, objects can be rotated, even felt for texture and weight.
Things you know better are more clear, often, a complex scene only seems complete because you ignore details.
Of course none of this is actually seen, visually. I assume you are able to recall voices, music, sounds, and things people have said to you, right? I can tell you that visual memories feel exactly the same. It's there, but seems to occupy another dimension, and in no way interferes with preception visually or aurally. I suppose that's precisely what it is to be crazy, when the barrier between imagination and reality is broken and you can no longer distinguish between the two.
As far as methodology goes.. that's like teaching someone how to feel sad or how to walk. Basically impossible. I dunno. Try reading lots of books, and working hard to visualize the scenes. Examine a 3d object. Try drawing it from an angle other than how you are looking at it. Try to rotate the object in your head instead of working it out logically. PERHAPS, it's actually just a matter of practice, like people who say they're tone deaf.
>>2350180
Get good at construction.
Anything can be made well from basic shapes.
If you're telling me visualizing something is anything more than just getting a more or less vague feel of what you're visualizing I won't believe you.
On topic of dreams if it's supposed to have something to do with this; I can recall 1-5 a day, some being very vivid and I have a lucid or two a week w/o WILD or rc's etc. I don't know how often is considered "normal" but I have hypnagogic hallucinations (voices and visuals) about every night. This is probably some form of the Tetris effect, but if I've been drawing intensely for more than an hour I can't stop "seeing" poorly drawn Loomis studies in my head. Which then overlap when I try to think of someone and it's terrible. With some meditation I've been able to form a small house and stuff three dimensionally in my head. Haven't really bothered trying it much.
But even those are just more like a feel. Don't know how else to describe it. At best like hypnagogic visuals. And to clarify more on that they're not too vivid for me. Unless I've misunderstood what they even are.
Despite of this I can't for the life of me conjure an image of anyone's face, if that's actually a thing then that's kinda depressing famalam. I couldn't even describe what my parents look like. If I've just been with the person I can get a kind of a vague flashback on it with but it fades in up to 60 minutes or something. I have no trouble recognizing people or anything so it most definitely is not that whatever that condition is called.
I think I might've contradicted myself a lot here but this is too confusing a topic and I'm too tired.
>>2350893
> At best like hypnagogic visuals
I'd say not even. Hypnagogia is like a hallucination, it actually affects your perception. Visual memories are pure imagination, in the same way you might hear a song or someone's voice in your head, but don't really hear anything at all. That's why I think the OP test is stupid, because you can imagine perfectly a red triangle without actually perceiving it.
I dunno, it's complicated because we're all using different definitions of things.
>>2350893
i once spent a few days doing nothing but self portraits and now i can pretty easily 'see' faces in my head, better than i could before. i remember when i couldn't even imagine a box in perspective. as you improve your ability to visualise does too
>>2350917
Now that I think of this, after finally starting with Loomis's faces some many months ago and trying to do shit studies I saw faces clearly in my dreams for a few times. I don't recall it happening much before that but it's happened after that. So yeah.
>>2350911
Yeah well I guess I do not know what hypnagogia is even supposed to be. But yea that's how I feel about it too if my post was too much of a mess.
Then that begs the question what the hell are my supposed hypnagogic hallucinations. Because the voices are definitely as hallucinatory as they get but they're accompanied by visuals the same tier as some intense meditating.
This is way beyond me rn I'll just hit the bed.
>>2350258
Noone actually sees anything in a way they would with their eyes open. It's not in front of your eyes, it's a thought in your mind like imagining a melody in your head or remembering a scent. You can't actually hear or smell it, it's a collage of memories and imagination.
OP, I'm not sure you understand minds eye (because of your lack of it?) and people thinking you do confuse you even more. It's not a visual hallucination. Imagining seeing something is not the same as actually seeing it.
I don't have a literal image. When I close my eyes and 'picture' something I see it in my mind's eye.
It's not actually visual, it's kind of cutting out the middle man. It's an imaginary construction of what you think it is. Memory doesn't work in a photographic way (except for in literal cases of photographic memory).
If this was true, you should be able to answer
"What was the last book you read? Ok, what was the third letter on the third line down on page 53?" and you'd be able to consult your photographic image in your head and do it. In reality memory is vague, nebulous, and can completely change/remove things to the point where all you have is your mind's cues. I bet you good money if you told a bunch of people without much experience drawing to visualize a giraffe, they'd say 'no problem' but if you asked them to draw it it'd have all sorts of errors and left out details.
Even without seeing it with my eyes shut, I can imagine turning over, say, a cylinder in my mind. I'm pretty confident nobody actually gets a literal image of the object on the back of their eyelids, but they can conceive of what it looks like.
>>2350926
>>2350937
Im not claiming seeing something something in your mind to be the same thing.
From what I gather though, there are varying levels of how clear it is, or if its more of just a feeling.
this anon here
>>2350710
they claim they visualize what 6 represents in the image
>>2350262
This anon sees a sharper version of 2
I myself, can only see a 1.
My guess, I just dont know how to /access/ the minds eye rather than literal vision. I just dont know how im supposed to conjure up a memory.
There seems to be some confusion when I say that so just to clarify I DO have memories. I can recall that something happened. Say, i can recall going to the farmers market. I was with Kate and Sam, we had falafels, there was a booth with pies, etc. But these are just facts. I know this because I experienced it. But I cant like, imagine actually standing in line and looking over to see Sam stealing apple slices. Does this make any sense?
I can hear things in my head, like I have an inner voice, but I can't really do much else.
Like. I realize that seeing an apple in real life and seeing it in your mind are two completely different things. But how the hell do I get my minds eye to work? As one anon said earlier in the thread, it's like teaching someone how to feel sad or something of that nature. Maybe there is a way? I dont know.
Can someone try their best to describe how and what they see looks like with their minds eye?
Sorry for the long post, this stuff is just. a lot.
>>2350960
but can you conjure other senses in your mind? it's comparable.
>>2350966
Mainly just sound. When I try for smell or taste, it just ends up with a stream of me thinking of adjectives.
Like imagining the taste of nutella, i think back to a time I had it. It was chocolate-y, creamy, rich. I can also sort of like, ~feel~ the texture of what it would be. Like i can get a sense of it.
I guess if I ranked my senses working best in my mind it would be
Sound
Texture (I can sort of get a ~feeling~ of it)
Taste (I can get a sense of what it would be like to be eating whatever it is)
Image (I can sometimes get a ~feeling~ of something, this especially works with gesture)
Smell (generally can only really on adjectives)
To speak more to the feeling of gesture, if I had to describe it, it would be like. I understand that the back I want to imagine has an S curve, so i can sort of like ~feel~ that. I have an easier time doing this with my eyes open though.
>>2350668
>This isn't bullshit IMO, bc it impacts an artists capabilities. To be able to recall something you saw and then draw it is an important skill- one I lack. Trying to get that skill sounds like a worthwhile task to me.
You can whine about it all day or instead go and practice and work on yourself.
You can excersize your brain and imagination and whatever.
I'm telling ya as a perso who tried all that tulpa stuff and could see his waifu with my eyes open with enough concentration and work on myself.
Stop bitching and just make yourself.
>>2350180
You can use your imagination with your eyes open to. thinking up objects have nothing to do with your eyes.
>>2350180
There is no such thing as not being able to see something when you close your eyes. No one can see anything with their eyes closed. But normal people can visualize, say, a 3D object like a cube with different colors on each side and rotate them around, given enough practice.
Visualizing something is a different matter. You seem to have some sort of mental disorder with limited visual memory and visual reasoning.
Say you look at a picture for about 10 seconds, then close your eyes and try to imagine that picture, if you can't, you have some defect in your visual processing and visual memory.
>>2350990
I'm scared now
>>2350180
Personally, I find it hard to remember 2d images. However I can easily imagine and manipulate 3d objects. I was born pretty good at this but drawing has probably doubled this ability for me. I dunno anon, I find that if I need to be able to do something, I just have to do some practice. I'd rather not worry about innate talent.
>>2350997
To add to this and to answer your initial question, the hardest part for me is to imagine the color (most likely because I haven't done much painting) so I guess I am case 4. BUT, I do not simply see a flat triangle: I see a triangle standing up in 3d space, all around of which I can turn. Probably cause I've been working on CAD desu
Can you plan your pictures on a blank paper? For example, before drawing a line you imagine how the line should go. Before doing a composition you have to plan it out in your head. Is all your art just accidental stumbling around? If you look away from the object you are drawing for just a blink and then carry the object onto the paper then the shape you draw down must be in your head.
>>2350942
But to confirm, when you are using your minds you are still seeing something, correct? You mentioned a book. As you pointed out, you cant see the letters on the book, but can you see the general shape of it? Can you rotate it around at different angles?
You can imagine a cylinder turning over- is it just recollection and understanding of how a cylinder works OR can you see the shape of it as you rotate it?
>>2350985
"Just do it" Thats what I have been trying to do, but Im trying to do something without even knowing what the end goal is supposed to be.
>>2350988
The way i think of objects is more based on a written description that I list in my head. For example, I would think to myself, it will have a square base, and a pointed top, there is a whole through the middle etc etc
>>2350990
>But normal people can visualize, say, a 3D object like a cube with different colors on each side and rotate them around, given enough practice.
^This is what I would like to be able to do
>Say you look at a picture for about 10 seconds, then close your eyes and try to imagine that picture, if you can't, you have some defect in your visual processing and visual memory.
You just put it into words- thats aphantasia. Maybe the way I've been talking about has been confusing but limited visual memory and visual reasoning is exactly how I would describe it.
>>2350992
Can you not visualize either?
>>2350997
I think having an easier time with 3D objects rather than 2D makes sense, because 3D has like logical rules. At least IMO. Like, I can get a ~feel~ of how a cylinder would turn in space, based on its properties.
>>2351003
So then when you visualize the triangle, is there any /space/ around it? is everything else just dark? Just curious.
>>2350180
If you can see, dream, remember, and think of other things, I really wonder what stops you from visualizing, as it seems to me to be the same thing, and out of those things, an external input is only required for actually seeing.
I can visualize though it's often ephemeral and disappears quickly, requiring me to continually recall the thing. Sometimes it's more vivid and consistent, depends on the subject and my state of mind.
I practice lucid dreaming sometimes, and one of the ways to do it is to basically fall asleep consciously. The times it's been successful for me I've just tried to nap and focus on visualizing an environment. Of course when it begins and I'm most conscious, I can only imagine inconsistent flashes but every once in a while I catch a glimpse of something vivid which completely encompasses the vision of my mind's eye. Eventually, if I can keep a vivid image there, and walk the tightrope of consciousness, then I will appear in the dream, and the imagined environment that formed in my mind's eye will stay there without nearly as much effort, just as a dream or waking reality does (though as dreams are, it can fall apart easily). So from this process, visualizing and dreaming seems the same to me, just that in a dream the external "distractions" are shut off.
>>2350926
Actually, when you remember a music or an action, your body activates the muscles you would use to produce it. In fact it's possible to read your mind through an EMG reading of your larynx. This might also apply to the visual and olphactory cortex, in principle. Though I have noticed that I tend to "see" imagined pictures in a space above my field of view, so as not to interfere with what my eyes are actually seeing. Violating this last costrain could make for some interesting artwork...
>>2351025
>Though I have noticed that I tend to "see" imagined pictures in a space above my field of view
thats some next level shit there
>>2351012
The process for me is generally
1. figure out what it is i want to draw. Say, its a lost man out in the desert.
2. How do i want to situate it? (composition) Okay well what do i want to convey? A sense of being lost- so i would determine that I want a big expanse of endless desert in the background giving a dwarfing effect to the man.
2.1 - several thumbnail sketches of possible approaches
Theres no plan in my head. I do it all on the paper. I just have a sense of what it is i want to convey in my head and then come up with solutions through design.
>>2351018
Theres definitely room for improvement (the nose and mouth bother me, if I had given more attention the ear it might not bother me so much too. But anyway.
For someone who thinks logically, Im pretty bad at math. And I want to focus more on construction but I have pretty bad spacial awareness (which i think is linked to being unable to visualize) but I think with practice I'll get better. Yes, I've been meaning to read his how to draw book!
>>2351020
>so from this process, visualizing and dreaming seems the same to me, just that in a dream the external *distractions* are shut off
-Maybe thats why some people in this thread have claimed meditation to help them? Meditation at least from what i understand seeks to block out distractions
>>2351013
>"Just do it" Thats what I have been trying to do, but Im trying to do something without even knowing what the end goal is supposed to be.
Spend time sitting there and conjuing mental images.
If you cant make a red triangle you have problems. But if you make your brain work it will .
Tulpa is a practice of buddhist monka because it takes hours of meditation (sitting there and intensively making your brain see what you want to) and it can actually give you a clear vision of what you are trying to see.
Having said tha you indeed don't need to go so far.
Go on, get concentrated and make yourself see something like a cup, how light plays on it's surfaces and so on, work on.
You may try to sitthere in the dark and quiet with closed eyes and imagine clay and try to sculpt it with imaginary hands, paint it with omaginary paint.
If i could see tulpa you certainly can see red triangle or simple shit.
>>2350269
I remember when I did that sheep would come on to fast and I lost count. But it was cartoon sheep jumping a cartoon fence. I was just recalling what I watched on tv desu. I think all imagination is derivative of what we see IRL.
>>2351025
>Actually, when you remember a music or an action, your body activates the muscles you would use to produce it.
Yes! When i think of a tune, Im hearing my inner voice kind of humming it- and I can feel my muscle constricting in a manner that it would if I were to actually be singing it, especially when its a high pitched tune
>>2351033
>Spend time sitting there and conjuring mental images
thats exactly what i dont know how to do. I have attempted sitting and conjuring up images, and eventually the middle of my forehead just begins to hurt. if I push past that point, I get a massive headache.
I can't make the red triangle. I dont know how to make my brain work. I made this thread to see if someone could describe how they initiate it, but apparently theres not, they just do it.
Its like, Im asking you how to breathe and you reply "What do you mean? Just inhale and exhale with your lungs" Its even more complicated than that because theres no clear steps involved. Its just "do it" I just dont get what the -it- is and how to actually go about doing it.
Aphantasia is literally being considered as a mental disorder, theres some sort of disruption or something with my visual processing area likely.
>>2351053
I was never able to even recall cartoon sheep over a cartoon fence despite of course having seen that animation as a kid. I know what it entails even now and I still can't do it.
>>2351066
>and eventually the middle of my forehead just begins to hurt. if I push past that point, I get a massive headache
If you do push-ups a lot your arms begin to hurt.
You get it?
I dunno , reallu try the imaginary clay thing. You can even make yourself sitting there and toiching nothing with your hands trying to see a ball in your head, imagine a ball and touch it. then do something, it can be a clay ball.
Imagining a box also shouldn't be a problem.
>>2351028
>meditation to help them
Yeah, that lucid dreaming technique is basically meditation, and if one is successful with it, then it means they successfully brought themselves into a state of mindfulness, essentially.
>>2351020
to continue my thoughts a bit...
OP, maybe you don't know this but visualizing isn't quite like normal sight, at least to me. It's very hard to describe. It doesn't override normal vision, though when I visualize something with my eyes open, I realize that in the moment of visualization, my mind's focus is away from what I actually see in front of me, and instead is on the vision of my mind's eye. And while visualizing with my eyes open, it feels as though my normal vision isn't any different, but it's consciously perceived more vaguely, if that makes any sense. This effect is impossible to examine though, because trying to do so just shifts my focus to normal vision and away from the visualization in my head. So while I can definitely still see and would react to visual change, I can't focus on both things at the same time. Anyone who's experienced daydreaming can understand how that is, where they're looking but their mind is more occupied with a visualization. But in general visualizing isn't like actually seeing something, unless it goes as far as a full dream.
OP, have you experienced any hypnagogia? That's like sensory experiences as you transition into sleep, it can basically be anything, maybe phosphene patterns, weird sounds, etc.
>>2351074
I've been trying and I will keep trying. but the darkness is just as dark always, even after getting my "mental exercise" in. the best I can do is sometimes getting a ~feeing~ if Im trying to think of gesture.
>Imagining a box shouldn't be a problem
this is how wikipedia defines imagination: Imagination, also called the faculty of imagining, is the ability to form new images and sensations in the mind that are not perceived through senses such as sight, hearing, or other senses.
So when you say, imagining a box shouldnt be hard, its impossible for me when I, by definition, LACK imagination
>>2351085
So you're saying, its a bit like spacing out? Usually i space out in my thoughts, where Im looking at somethign but Im not really seeing anything because im thinking.
The other day, I was sitting on my couch thinking about some characters and I was planning how I wanted them to interact. So I was going through some dialogue as though they were talking and I could get a sense of where they were. Like I could tell she had burst into the house and was rambling and raving and I knew what their facial expressions were like and I could get a sense of her dragging a chair over the counter to climb on it. Thats the closest i've come to imagining. But its more like. I can just get a feeling. Its never really occupying my field of vision. idk.
>>2351013
Generally I see everything on a black background. I'm not very good at landscapes and backgrounds; I still have to figure out their logic.
Anyway I think this is how it works for most of the artist who have to draw from imagination (as opposed to life painters): your "visual library" consists of a set of colored 3d models and a set of rules of how light works. All of this could be done by a computer, as it's very mechanical. Of course there are other considerations, but they're built on this base. So I don't see how you're different from the average artist. In fact you hit the nail on the head: without knowing the 3d shape of an object, it's impossible to predict the appearance of it's 2d projections! You have to think of yourself as a 3d modeling program. The rendering is mathematical. OTOH, remembering a mental photograph of something you've seen could be useful if you're just going to copy reality, but I've never known someone who could do that. In fact artists of this type tend to either use construction or direct reference. All in all, I don't see why you would complain that you can't do something that most people don't actually even bother doing.
>>2351085
I forgot to answer your question: I have experienced hallucinations. The only two times i've had a fever (not very high) in my life I hallucinated and when I dont get enough sleep i hallucinate. Sounds and seeing thing scurrying around the corners of my peripheral vision. (I got 8 hours of sleep over the course of finals week, lots of hallucinations then)
And I know that I must be seeing some type of images while I dream because i can recall the location.
>>2351027
What? I thought this was normal... I guess it's because I know where my brain is, so I "feel" the images slightly behind my forehead, as if I could turn my eyes up into my skull and look at them. You imagine in your head, don't you? Or do you imagine in your liver or heart? Or is it an abstract space with no tie to immanent space?
>>2351132
its a sort of overlayed on the same "area" as my vision
>>2351120
Thats just it though, that "visual library" with a set of colored 3D models is exactly what Im after. I dont have that. I mentioned the cylinder earlier and how I can get a feeling of how it might rotate- its pretty vague. I have shitty spacial awareness as it is and maybe if i focus more on construction it can improve. But even then at the capacity of what I can manage now, I would only be able to maybe do this with shapes. I complete model set is too complex to master with only a ~feeling~
>>2351132
From what Im getting, some people do it with their eyes close and are /directly/ interpretting it, some people do it with their eyes open and see it vaguely in front of them... everyone seems to do it differently. At least thats what Im understanding.
>>2351066
Cant you figure it out for yourself though? Like, you can imagine a black plane, can't you? Can you pick a point on this plane? Can you pick two more? There is your triangle. I'll let you figure out the lines, filling and color by yourself. Didn't you ever imagine as a kid?
i remember finding that i could picture things in my mind noticeably better when i started learning how to draw the loomis head, because i was drawing the same object over and over, at different angles. kind of like filling in all the frames for a rotating animation.
i found that drawing things from a different angle from what you are looking at really does build up my visualising skills, especially when what you are drawing from is from life so you can check. i fell confident in moving the camera around a pose that i'm looking at online and be able to see a faint image of the pose in my minds eye to build off. i'm sure i've heard drawing things from many different angles recommended a few times from achieved artists too.
>>2351141
Dude no. Thats what complete darkness is.
One time in class, our teacher told us to imagine ourself beginning to float up and to fly to our favorite place. I sat there and just saw black. Thats when it really hit me that something about me was off.
If Im to think of a plane, I know for fact that theres the long part and then 2 wings, one on either side, and propellors. I can get it down on paper but I cant get it down in my head.
>>2351133
Doesn't it get in the way of normal vision? Or rather, doesn't vision get in the way of your imagination? Cause if that was the case for me, I'm pretty sure I would need to close my eyes in order to think clearly
>>2351110
Sounds like you're more grammatical than visual. That tends to happen with women desu. I'm pretty sure it's quite common, although maybe not to such extreme. What pushed you towards drawing then? Maybe you're better suited for more verbal or musical occupations. Btw, with this 3d thinking thingy I got a degree in physics. OTOH I suck at music. I know some of the theory but I realize I have no talent. Or chess: I learned some, but I know I'll never be one of the greats. So I wonder how you didn't realize this earlier...
>>2351158
i suppose it does in a way. when envisioning something, my brain gets distracted from what im actually seeing and stops processing it to focus on whats in my head
dw guys if sycra can do it, we all can :)
>>2351149
LMAO by plane I mean something like a blackboard. Or like the black 2d space that you claim to see! If you can't even do that, you just need to look at a wall, pick 3 points on it and fixate them in your mind. I can't picture a Boeing myself either lol
I got somewhat of a rather bad and squishy??? inner eye, every time i try to imagine something, its like there are multiple things randomly popping up and disappearing around it and its hard to focus on it. When i manage to concentrate on something, every part i am focusing on blurs while it seems like stuff around it is sharp, while it actually is not, like how the human eye doesnt see sharp at the edges of the visual area, but your brain tells you everything is fine. Its a bit like my brain has just a shitty inner picture and just give it the label "this is fine" which breaks every time, when i actually focus on it. Someone else got this?
>>2350180
From the chart, my "mind's eye" vision is between 5 and 6. Sometimes it leans closer to 5 and other times leans closer to 6.
>>2351148
Im thinking that rather than just drawing from photo references, Im going to start using a 3D model that you can turn the figure around in. I think that might help me a bit by what you're saying. Theres no way that right now I could draw a pose and 'turn the camera'. I
m figuring that with practice whats going to end up happening though is improved muscle memory and a better grasp on structure. Which suits me just as well. It would just be easier if I had a faint image in my minds eye to build off of but Idk. As things have been looking, not sure i'll ever really be able to use it.
>>2351158
By the time I realized it, it was kind of too late. Drawings the only thing I'm somewhat good at. Shit at math and science, I'm good with writing and used to do a lot of it as a kid but I kind of grew out of it. Grammar rules kind of throw me for a loop a bit anyway. I'm decent with music, I've been playing piano for 14 years and know violin and accordion too. Art was just always my thing, i was pretty good without much effort. So I just stuck with it.
>>2351170
Ah yes! that makes much more sense lmao. I will try the looking at a wall and picking three points, I think thats a pretty good starting point actually! thanks!
>>2351183
Are you visualizing with open or closed eyes? And you can /see/ in color?
>>2351168
Yes! I saw that video a while back where he spoke about having this, I'll link it here for anyone else who wants to watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi3NT3_xdIg
>>2351188
It's easier with my eyes open. When they're closed, my "vision" usually leans closer to 5. And yes, I can see in color, but when I try to put the colors into action on the canvas, it tends to end up brighter or darker than I imagine, but not at an extreme.
I wonder how it affects your imagination/creativity. Can you create impossible images in your head, or at least think of something that can't exist in reality and put it to paper?
>mfw when porn doesn't even compare to imagination in making me come hard
you have my sympathies
>>2351220
I feel like imagination and creativity are often used synonymously but they're not necessarily linked. I cant create impossible images in my head, but i can think of something that doesn't exist. Like I can think up scenarios. I have my own characters off in their own world. I vaguely know what I /want/ it to look like and drawing it out helps me figure out my thoughts moreso. Since I can't see what I create in my head I actually have to make it. You get me?
But now that you mention porn.... I never thought about lack of imagination in regards to that. It DOES explain for my taste (audio is where its at yo) which coincides with the fact that I can only hear sounds in my mind. Anyway. I can still think of scenarios when it comes to getting off, just cant imagine them.
Sorry if this is TMI I just thought it was interesting as I hadn't ever like considered it.
>>2350258
how can you say "roman nose" and don't even know how that looks like? I don't know how that looks like and I can draw from imagination pretty easily, maybe not realistically, but yeah.
If you know the difference between a roman nose and, say, a peruvian one, you might as well draw it. You don't draw the entire form out of nowhere. First you must use basic shapes, dude. If in your mind you can sort of picture a rectangle that is larger in the upper area, and then do the same but change the size at the bottom and such, then you have ALL the ability you need to start learning about drawing from your imagination.
This thread is driving me nuts. Nobody can "see" in their mind. People just remember stuff. It's all wishy washy. Ideas are abstract and "pointy nose" does make you recall someone or it gives you the idea of a face like that, but it's not a complete image, unless you're dreaming or almost asleep. Those are the only times "detailed" pictures actually begin to form. Maybe drugs too? Idk.
>>2350702
the only way we can be sure of your abilities is if you try to draw something for us from your "imagination", even if it looks like shit
>>2351013
Your questions are weird. You try to give answers to things like the background of the triangle, for example. It actually works a bit like Schrodinger's Cat. It just doesn't exist (and it does, in a way, since you can't have the triangle in there with something around it, right?) until you think about it.
>>2350258
I assume you copy a lot. Stop doing that for a while and start drawing like you're in preschool. Don't expect anything. Just draw freely and build up from from the marks and shapes you made in the paper. You'll start seeing things there and you'll want to expand on them. We don't start drawing as kids as a goal to create, exactly. We do it to exercise our imagination instictively.
>>2351495
I know what roman nose looks like, i just can't recall it as an image in my mind. Sorry I dont really know how to describe it that well. I alluded to oranges and bananas earlier in the thread.
>if in your mind you can sort of picture a rectangle...
Bro, thats the thing. i can't even picture a rectangle. thats my main issue.
>>2351497
Its driving me nuts too! When I say see in their mind, I mean remember. ALTHOUGH, a person can technically (Im assuming) build forms in their mind? with basic shapes? So that visualization isnt necessarily remembering. As for how detailed it is, Im assuming for most its not very, but it varies from person to person if you look at what people have said in this thread. Some people see noise in the image, some have detailed objects with less focused backgrounds. Honestly, there doesn't seem to be a clear cut norm. Everyones answers here were different.
>>2351509
I was just wondering about the background, because I wanted to know if it had a relationship to the triangle. Sorry if my questions seem silly, its actually a bit difficult to find the right thing to ask about something thats well, pretty alien to me. The way you explained it makes sense though, thanks!
>>2351521
Thats actually pretty inspiring! Im going to start focusing on construction but I'll definitely slot in time for just drawing with no expectations. This sounds helpful, thankyou!
>>2351251
But visual imagery that you can't put into words? For example some abstract animations would take too much effort to be put into words, it's something the author visualizes in mind and then makes.
>>2351158
I am the same way with the overlay in the same area of my vision.
It's almost as though my imagination is completely transparent, but I /know/ it's there. I can go through and pick out the details like you would with a normal visual scene and your eyes, but it's not beheld, it's directly known.
>>2351521
> tf when you're trained from a young age to expect results and are just constantly frustrated with your lack of progress
I'm not OP, but I'll try to remember your words. Some quote for others who are stuck in that hell.
I want to stop thinking about this godforsaken topic but this thread is still here so I can't.
I don't even know if there's any point in trying to write something on this because I'll probably just confuse the poor mind of someone else by trying to convey something as abstract as this to someone with words they'll probably interpret as something else than I intended. So I guess I won't. I can't seem to be able to verbalize myself too well right now so I couldn't anyways.
Just someone please for the love of based god tell me you can't _actually_ see fuck all and it's just feely bullshit so I can go to sleep feeling content because I swear I'm going to commit seppuku real soon. I am so done.
Or at least tell me you've been able to train it or something so I won't feel impotent here.
>>2353454
Its more like, I know the concept of what I want to convey, so I sketch thumbnails out till I feel Im getting it across. I haven't done much animation (In fact, I've only made like one gif lmao I'll attach it, theres some horrible mistakes I know) but movement is hard and I find myself wanting to like make 3D models of characters and record myself acting out whatever it is Im doing. Can't really so much to that because I haven't done much with it.
But yeah, vocabulary only takes me so far, which is why Im looking to maybe find a way to learn about visuals.
>>2353616
Solid, saved the quote for the bad days
>>2353703
OP here, I feel this in my soul. People in thread have confirmed that they can actually /see/ images pretty clearly (not a feeling). So. Yeah.
Supposedly, training is possible I've been reading it up online.Some people have exercises that they claim helped them learn how to visualize.
>>2353703
You still literally see the inside of your eyelids, however your brain sort of ignores it, you can quite clearly perceive whatever mental image your conjuring, so if I say try to imagine the fan I have behind me without looking I can pretty clearly imagine the shape, textures, motion, and the pattern of dust where I scrawled a smiley face yesterday. I can also imagine something entirely imaginary like the inside of a star -ship, slowly building up details in the imaginary landscape, so at first it may just be colors and shapes with implied details, as I walk around the ship in my head and I examine specific areas I can either let my brain fill in the details, or decide things for myself, creating a persistent environment that if I spent a bit of effort on getting it down I would be able to conjure it back to mind in an instant.It's like a dream, hence the reason it's called day dreaming. It's like the "right brain" equivalent of the left brain's remembering of facts and reasoning to put those facts together. You're remembering sensations and warping or putting them together to create a new one.
I would assume it would be impossible to draw without this ability, but Sycra, although /ic/ likes to shit on they guy, is decently competent and claims to have this condition, so I don't really know.
If I woke up without the ability to visualize I'd probably kill myself desu. [spoiler]Mainly because then I couldn't see my imaginary friends or jack off to my imagination[/spoiler]
>tfw have lazy eye
>no depth perception
SEND HELP
![[CAN'T WAKE UP].png](https://i.imgur.com/X5ncDzH.jpg "[CAN'T WAKE UP].png")
>>2353807
>I can pretty clearly imagine the shape, textures, motion, and the pattern of dust where I scrawled a smiley face yesterday
Brb definitely committing sudoku.
For me it's like "seeing" how I'd see in IRL with my -4 diopter vision but through thick glass that's been shit on in warped perspective combined with messed up wobbly proportions. At best. No details let alone fine ones and can barely focus on one simple thing at once.
This hasn't prevented me from daydreaming a lot when I had the time and patience for it but the effort and focus I had to put into creating those relatively simple scenarios was ridiculous.
>>2353728
>People in thread have confirmed that they can actually /see/ images pretty clearly (not a feeling).
I don't believe it for a second. But please do give links on training it if you've found anything worth a check.
>>2353872
Judging from your reply, visualize? Just kind of warped? The stuff that I dug up is for people who can't visualize at all.
>>2353889
Judging from your reply, you can visualize*
>>2353891
Yeah I mean now that I thought of it, yeah, in a way I guess, but really, really warped. Sorry, I always get very confused reading about this topic.
>>2353833
I've developed a lazy eye as well, anon. Don't know how bad yours is, obvs, but I can still see depth. Just takes me a lot longer.
>>2353909
Just by a few degrees. Not enough that I look silly but enough that I have a very dominant eye at any given time limiting my depth perception.
A distinction needs to be mind between 'minds eye imagery' and straight up projecting shit onto your eyelids, or even the real world.
The latter is definitely possible, but it takes a lot of practice.
I started practicing a while ago, together with non related airy fairy occult/spiritual practices, and now when in a solid meditative state I can vaguely project images, almost like hypnagogic images before sleep.
Meditation is really key here, I think. Lucid dreaming/astral projecting, also adds to the whole visualization ability.
So far, it has had next to no practical application in drawing, but maybe if my abilities get stronger it'll have a significant impact.
>>2353912
needs to be made*
>>2353912
I find that visualization helps with design rather than actually drawing. Lets me work out what designs are total shit without having to do the work to put them on paper
>>2353912
How would you explain the difference between minds eye imagery and projecting shit onto your eyelids/real world?
I thought that minds eye imagery was a projection sort of. I dont know anything about anything.
>>2353937
I don't know how to explain, the eye's mind for me feels like a movie screen looming over my head/inside my head while my vision is in front of me all the time and have amazing graphics.
I can use both at the same time without one interfering with the other. Projecting stuff into your eyelids/real world i guess would break the barrier between those two, making them one for a moment.
>>2353937
Lets say you're reading a book, you will probably start forming 'images' in your mind. These images are contained in some kind of 'space of mind'. You're not literally seeing them right in front of you, not because your mind doesn't have the capabilities - think of hallucinations - but because 'muh evolution' and seeing shit that's not there all the time would be extremely disadvantageous.
Imagine if Cronk saw an actual sabre-tooth tiger every time he thought of one.
What I'm talking about is straight up seeing the thing you're imagining, as if you were dreaming or having hallucinations.
It's kind of comparable to your 'inner-voice'. You 'hear' something, but it's not like you're hearing something as you would hear somebody shout your name. It's not that vivid. However, schizo's do in fact hear voices as if some one was actually talking to them. Auditory hallucinations can also be induced for that matter.
It's a difficult skill to develop though, and if you get into these kind of practices solely for artistic gains, I don't know how far you'll get.
>>2350180
I can visualize some forms, I see or at least I think I can see very faint shapes similar to the ones that forms when you see directly to strong light source. something very simple like pic related.
This is something that I do to help sleep faster, sometimes it becomes a very short dream and I wake up shortly but sometimes I end up with my eyes hurting because I move them around too much. This doesn't help with my art at all, but sometimes it gives me cool ideas (That I can't draw anyways or end up forgetting)
I was inducing lucid dreaming (both WILD and DILD) for many years but I stopped after an unpleasant experience about a year ago.
If you've ever done wake-induced-lucid-dreaming (WILD) you'll know it's only a few notches down from reality. The other type called dream-induced-lucid-dreaming (DILD) isn't anywhere near as good because you'll likely have been asleep for hours or going through a number of cycles. Lucid dreaming under WILD is like "seeing" and I have woken up thinking I'm still in a dream.
Now imagining an object in your "mind's eye" is utterly different from lucid dreaming. If you're finding it very difficult to imagine an object, try to describe it using your mind's inner voice. Then it's a bit like reading a book. The difficulty is trying to describe a complex object like the human face. Studying anatomy and practicing abstraction from the whole is key here.
>>2355014
A followup example read this:
"At the center of a dark and damp concrete basement stood a perfectly constructed rhombic pyramid. It was floating and a brilliant crimson shone from it. There were no textures or blemishes which could be seen on its surfaces and the only sound that could be heard was dripping water."
Compare that with just trying to force a red triangle into your mind.
>>2350180
Aphantasia is pretty fascinating to me. I have a friend who has aphantasia who wants me to score us some LSD when I visit next . He says that he could navigate his lounge room in the dark (hypothetically, I'm not sure that would actually be possible, messy sharehouse) but he cannot actually picture the appearance of the room.
I've always had some weird perceptual experiences. If I concentrate on a spot, especially in low light, I'll start seeing swirls and light abstract visuals. Through meditation, I've managed to focus my mind enough that I can now visualize a triangle and actually project it onto my vision. It's about like #3 in OP's post. I guess technically I've developed the ability to make myself hallucinate on will, although I can't make anything more complex than 3 straight lines.
>>2358473
that's not too surprising considering spatial/mapping networks in the brain are a bit different, although still in communication with visual networks.
I can visualize something if I understand how it works.
I cannot visualize a triangle, familiar face or a fruit because there are no functions in there. They are just objects sitting on space.
But when I think of structure and function all sort of images come into my eyes.
Like I cannot just draw a head.
But if I think on how does the jaw works, how do the facial muscles work, how does light behaves when it hits the surface. Then I can visualize it easily.
I cannot just imagine a plant. But if I think of it's function (From where does the sun hits it, how often do living things interact with it, the way it absorbs water) then I get plenty of images.
Same with poses. If I just try to picture it like a plastic toy, I can't see shit. But when I think about the gravity, the weight, the movement, the equilibrium, I can easily visualize that. It's almost like if the images create themselves.
Think of your room. You can navigate it with your eyes closed, because you understand how it is setup to be used, not because you can see a photo in your head.
Drawing is not just a tool for showing previsualized images. Drawing is an activity to decipher how objects work. If I don't know what to do, I make exploratory sketches to decipher how the "thing" works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbmnx0hTPjA
>>2350180
Try binaural beat and brain entrainments, if your willing to give psuedoscience a try.
>>2350180
I don't see the red triangle, but I can imagine what it would look like if I saw it irl.
So in my experience, I can see the triangle, but it isn't a solid stationary color. It constantly resizes, flashing bright Yellow, Cyan, Magenta, Black, White, etc, but the outline is definitely solid.
Enough about the exercise though, rather, I'm more intrigued about the discussion of visualization, as I make pendants, and I have to visualize what the pendant looks like, mostly a basic outline or base structure in which I work off of, but the concept is the same. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to conceptualize double-sided quadruple bailed crazy pieces that blow people's minds. The mind is the most powerful thing we have at our disposal. Train it right and it'll serve you forever.
>>2360812
you sound like you are full of shit
