Why the fuck does /ic/ never talk about cast drawing?
I only just by chance found this out and apparently it's an amazing technique for improving.
>>2270705
Isn't it just a glorified form of drawing from life, which gets recommended here a lot.
>>2270709
It's a modern practice for people who want to paint like old masters by taking shortcuts.
did this one recently, I'm proud
>>2270717
Why are you stupid? ;_;
>>2270717
Shortcut, are you kidding? At my atelier we spent WEEKS on one cast drawing. It's pretty grueling.
>>2270705
>Why the fuck does /ic/ never talk about cast drawing?
1) It's a really well known and basic exercise so doesn't get mentioned much because it's assumed people know it.
2) Not many basement NEETs have access to decent casts, which can be very expensive even when just cheap plaster moulds.
3) Many places that teach cast drawing use sight-size, which is a method not approved of by /ic/ for a variety of reasons
4) Most d/ic/ks use digital, while cast drawing/painting is an exercise pretty much exclusive to traditional media
>>2270944
It wouldn't pass at an actual atelier. They'd stop you from rendering before you fixed the drawing. Probably tell you to start over.
Not to be discouraging but you are not going in the right direction for a cast drawing with this one.
Cast drawing takes forever
It's much more effective to draw a figure in 10 to 20 minutes than to draw a lifeless object in roughly 90 hours.
It's good for super beginners, but can be quickly replaced with something else.
Pic related. My drawing 1 teacher made us do about 8 of these for homework. I got so sick of them.
>>2270967
That's a bargue copy which is a preparatory excercise for cast drawing. Did you do any actual cast drawings?
What the f*ck is cast drawing?
>>2270980
It's a form of modern conceptual art. You take a highly finished drawing and cast it into a fire, and then proceed to smear your body with the ashes as you lay naked on the floor contemplating life, death and the ultimate impermanence of it all. It's a required excercise for many art schools and draws both from eastern philosohy as well as post modernism
>>2270967
different exercises have different purposes.
With the bargue's stuff you discipline yourself to measure things.
>>2270987
When will art schools let me stick my dick into a hot girl in the same class for "art reasons?"
Someone needs to get on this.
>>2270968
Yeah
I just don't have any on my phone atm
We did a torso, a head, hands+feet, facial features.
Like I said, cast drawings are good for beginners, but once you understand the principles that are being discovered, it's time to move onto bigger and better things.
>>2270705
we do sometimes, I'm working on one now, see
>>2270477
>>2270709
pretty much
>>2270717
I can see where you might call the sight-size method a shortcut. It's really arduous when done 'correctly' and takes forever like
>>2270948
mentioned, but you can get good results without any knowledge of you subject's construction or a mastery of comparative measuring.
>>2270967
What art school? The uni I went to never had anyone do bargues. That said, its art program sucked. I'm gonna disagree with you about being only for beginners, though your definition of beginner might be my definition of intermediate. Mind posting some of your figurative work? Maybe I am wasting time with cast drawings.
I've been doing a lot of sight-size practice because I honestly think I get better at drawing with it. I see it as a stepping stone exercise, training patience, observation, and measuring. I know it gets written off for good reason. Most places that recommend sight-size treat it as an end-all technique, but I think it has some merit when paired with a working knowledge of anatomy and construction. I honestly can't think of a better way to learn to measure.
Wish I had access to an atelier so someone could check my work for mistakes, but I can't afford it. Fortunately I've had enough to buy a couple casts over the years. I use this set: http://www.fineartstore.com/p-5966-plaster-castings-eye-ear-nose-and-lips-set.aspx
>>2271110
We didn't us sight size at my atelier.
>>2270948
How are you learning anything by slavish copying? Unless you understand what you're drawing you're wasting your time.
>>2270961
7 hours work, you can't get everything exactly right
>>2271188
You develop your eyes - the ability to see and copy subtle value shifts is an fundamental skill. Who says there is no understanding involved?
I hope you realize that even the likes of Zorn went through this type of training. We even had one of his plaster casts at my school.
>>2271195
I'm not saying it was futile, but it isn't a cast drawing in the sense the word is used in most ateliers. 30-40 hours is more like it at an atelier. 7 hours is barely enough to get started for a traditional cast drawing. Any life drawing is good ofcourse so keep going. If you feel like it as personal milestone you should feel good about it, not trying to be a dick. Just sharing some information man.
>>2271197
It was only around the 19th century that this shit was popular, it's one way of improving your perception, but there are many better ways that won't burn you out, like doing life drawing and still lifes.
>>2271116
but you did do cast drawings? what was the method, I'm curious. I imagine there must have been more to it than 'lol draw that shit'. What was the measuring process, and how did they check your work for accuracy at the end?
Like I said, I see sight-size as a stepping stone, so I'm interested in how cast drawing is otherwise taught at a high level. The art program at the uni I went to had casts, but it was pretty much just 'lol draw it' and if your drawing remotely resembled the cast you got an A+. If there were marks on the paper you got a B.
>>2270944
would have been considered perfect work at my uni, though it's obviously not successful as a traditional 'cast drawing' (no offense buddy, it's a good effort)
>>2271203
what's the point of spending 30 hours on a drawing? Might as well paint it.
>>2270705
I have done it, don't Even talk about it, is Hell.
>>2271293
http://www.cast-drawing.com/cast.html
>>2271309
My experience was that it pushed me to reach for a level of perfection I would not have on my own, and also taught me patience and work ethic.You are pushed to aim for absolute perfection which isn't possible, but as the saying goes aim for the stars and you'll atleast reach the top of the trees.
The instructors where like bootcamp instructors who broke you down and built you up. When I did bargue copies my teacher pointed out once that the ear was one third of a millimeter off. I spent 6 hours just moving that ear back to the correct position. It sounds extreme, but it really improved my sensitivity. Sometimes you wanted to punch the teacher in the face when you felt like "oh boy they are gonna be pretty impressed with this" and they tell you that your work is trash and that you need to start over and be less sloppy next time. On a mental level it also breaks down any artistic ego you might have which can be a barrier for growth. No one is above correction when doing Bargues or cast drawings. I think it's useful to go through it as a phase, but not something you need to do for the rest of your life.
>>2271293
Yes.
Comparative method. You start by deciding how far from the cast you will stand, and mark the spot on the floor with tape or by a recognizable spot on the floor.
Then you make two light marks that indicates the height and placement of the cast on the paper, which is essential when you have a limited amount of erasing possible. Next you draw a plumbline between those two points which corresponds to a physical point on the actual cast, so you can hold a physical plumbline (string with weight) and use it to compare your drawing with the real life cast. You add three more marks so the line on the paper have four subdivisions. These subdivisions again responds to a physical location on the cast which you use for comparison. This is like training wheels and you may not use these tools as strictly when you get better. Then you block in the cast using the process as when you copy Bargues, by making a polygon like drawing of the whole cast.
You can read more here: http://www.swedishacademyofrealistart.se/about/sight-size/
Cast drawing sounds like a colossal waste of time unless you want to become a human printer.
I'd rather make a hundred portrait studies during those 40 hours instead of one.
>>2271539
The level of finish coming from atelier students at good schools point towards it having some value for the time spent. I would say why not try everything, it's a long road to "getting gud" and you've got plenty of time to give everything a go, at least once.
Limiting yourself may also limit some decent incite/knowledge you could get from stepping outside your comfort zone.
Most people on here probably spend 40h a month playing games or watching youtube, cut that and do this.
Sounds like a load of shit desu.
Drawing from life, and learning to measure, etc. is all fine and dandy, but taking it to the extreme like that seems like a huge waste of time.
Also, most artists don't spend their time doing shit like that and their art looks just fine so it would follow that it's not that special of an exercise.
what is an atelier exactly?
This seems like a really useful experience, even if it is a bit extreme
>>2271545
>triggered
There's no reason to be so averse to something unless you're either lazy, or scared to do it. People waste so many hours doing nothing. You're most likely a NEET with nothing going on. There is no way your time is so precious you couldn't spare 20/30/40 hours on a cast drawing.
If you don't want to do because it's not your jam that's cool, but don't say it's useless. I doubt you even have the experience to back up such a claim especially if you've never done it.
If you want to "make it" I would work on that closed off hostile mentality. Lots of progress in your career may come from trying new things.
>>2271556
It's just like a school that has a heavy focus on life drawing and realism. They could be a good alternative for art colleges for some people. Bets to do your research like anything and see what the teachers and students work looks like before going to one and spending the money.
>>2271558
Looks like there's one near me that has drop in lessons for £15 an hour
That's what, £1000 per drawing according to this thread?
Might check it out though, the places I've studied at were hugboxes that valued expression over technique, got pretty sick of not learning anything.
>>2270705
There were some pretty solid people at my atelier, went at the same time as Miles Johnston and Sam Carr. Their digital background made them pick it up the cast drawing real quick. There was also a guy that got reqruited by dice at school and now works as a concept artist for them.
The main drawback of the atelier type training is that there is almost no focus at all on drawing from imagination, although we did have a guest teacher who was taught by Vilppu holding a few lectures.
>>2271564
I'd at least try it out. I've never been to one but there are also some in a big city close to me. They have them all over.
If you can do just one class at a time I'd say do one of the intro classes and see if it's your thing/worth it. I don't know how long each class is but if you can spend a few hundred to get your feet wet it could be worth it for a week or two.
it's hard to know what road to take without trying out different options. You could get some key criticism or info that could shape the rest of your career. (for the better) If not, you only spent a few bills on it and you can move on.
>>2271572
Yeah, I'll definitely go check it out when I can, it looks like they have a ton of options.
Their online gallery looks pretty nice
>>2271578
I've seen people posting school work before (just random artists) and they do different kinds of stuff. Not all cast drawing, they do painting in oil and other stuff so you're not going to be just limited to charcoal studies at a lot of these schools.
Should be fun. (and cheaper than artschool in most places, especial US)
>>2271583
I'm in Scotland, so art school is free for me, getting in is the problem.
Hopefully a week or two at an atelier could give my portfolio an edge.
>>2271203
i'd love too spend some more time on it. I'll try to borrow a cast from my school. I only spent 7 hours because our day lasts 7 hours and we get grades at the end of each one.
thanks man no offense taken at all!
>>2271522
yeah exactly this.
Also at first you work on plaster casts and you're like "why the hell am i doing this"
then you learn to enjoy it. For once you don't have to think about anything, you can put your ego aside and focus on your skill. You focus incredibly hard, you get "inside" your drawing and you don't think about anything else.
It's only you, charcoal and the cast.
I feel like shit and my art style is just plain sad but when i do realism i feel good because at least i can catch a glimpse of perfection, that my imaginative work will sadly never features
>>2271602
Keep at it anon. If you keep doing life drawing and focus what you've picked up from that into your imaginative work you'll get there. It's just slow. Most of the advice pro's continually give is to use the stuff you learn in your studies on the personal work.
You're just doing more highly focused studies but the principal is still the same.
>>2270953
Why does /ic/ not like sight-size? Sighting and measuring is the foundation of all observed drawing and painting
>>2271765
Because the high degree if realism and finish used in this method is scary and too much work for pleb anons.
NEETs are fucken lazy, thats why.
>>2271015
>into a girl
Never unless you're a girl or t. They allow you to sniff assholes and/or lose your ass virginity as long it's with another guy.
I wish i was kidding.
>>2271770
Realism isn't the end goal of all artists, and I don't think it necessarily should be.
There's a few people at my school who are really talented in all technical aspects, but the actual content and concepts behind their work is really weak. Obviously work should be at a level where construction errors or things like that don't detract from the piece or aren't present, but most people and most artists aren't trying to pursue this level of finish, it isn't a means to an end
>>2271784
My post is addressing the anons comment about people not liking it and by extension attacking it. If you don't want to be a realist fine, i'd expect you'd just ignore the thread. But actively attacking a method to me means you have something against it, like you wish you could do it but are too lazy to put in the effort so you discount it.
Everyone on here assumes doing work to this level means all your work will be to this level. Just because you can paint/draw photo real doesn't mean you have to all the time. You can simplify and abstract just as easily and because your drawing ability is high you'll have a better set of fundamentals to base you simplification on. You see it all the time in the entertainment concept world, the old says of CA specifically come to mind.. Artists who paint photo real in their studies (or close to it) but their client work is more cartoony and simplified. The knowledge translates over and helps them make more informed decisions.
>>2271788
Yet again, just because you work this way doesn't mean you always have to work this way. Anyone with more than 3 brain cells will take aspects of this method (shadow shapes, tone, anatomy) and apply it in a different method to their other work. This is a prefect example of a nonsensical argument used to attack a valid method of study for no other reason than being scared or lazy like I talked about above.
>>2271792
How is anyone attacking this method at all? If anything, people are only pointing out the flaws in the method. In your initial post you actually attacked people that didn't use the method.
>>2271809
>How is anyone attacking this method at all?
>... like that seems like a huge waste of time.
>... a colossal waste of time unless you want to become a human printer.
>...what's the point of spending 30 hours on a drawing? Might as well paint it.
>... more effective to draw a figure in 10 to 20 minutes than to draw a lifeless object in roughly 90 hours.
Just a selection of the idiocy in this thread. If you don't understand perhaps you should use dictionary in conjunction with browsing IC. Plenty of decent online ones to choose from, I could recommend a few if you're having trouble.
> pointing out the flaws in the method
There are minor flaws in every method, whats your point? There's no perfect way of learning and the only "flaw" I've seen proposed here is the method is "limiting and rigid", whatever that means. Maybe, assuming your an idiot that then only uses this method for doing all of your work henceforth. Oh and the occasional "I have to spend 40h on a single drawing?!?? Ugh...but xbox. "
No one is claiming you're only allowed to use the cast drawing method from here on out once you try it. That's a strawman argument put up by people who don't want to do it. The most accomplished artist people drool over have tried tons of different methods of studying and drawing over their careers. If you can't figure out how to take parts of different methods and use what works and what doesn't than feel free to stay a pleb.
You're just trying to justify only doing your narrow version of studies and nothing else because it's hard and uncomfortable. If you don't want to do cast drawing thats fine but for people on IC to talk others out of doing it? lol 99% of people on here are shit tier artist, I wouldn't be taking advise from them on what is useless and what isn't.
>>2270948
It IS a shortcut. 12-year-olds can turn out good cast drawings. Compared to the training of old masters, it's easy mode and you can turn out good looking results in less time studying. I'm talking about one drawing, I'm talking about the entire training, and there are far too many people who take cast drawing or Bargue as the main method and way of studying. It takes longer and more varied training to be able to do a quick sketch like Leonardo than to learn how to produce strikingly realistic Bargues.
>>2273539
I'm not talking about one drawing*
>>2271536
Huh. I thought comparative was different from sight-size.
This whole thread is people mixing up vast drawing and sight size method. Protip: You can do cast drawing without sight size use volumes and estimate angles and relationships, just like you would with normal figure drawing.
>>2270717
It teaches you a lot. I don't get your point.
>>2273539
What was this alternate training of the old masters?
>>2272238
>>2271788
here, i agree with your post. I'm actually working sight size right now (there's a pic of my first few hours in a draw thread somewhere). I was merely pointing out the limitations to someone who asked. I should probably have also stipulated that there's hate because a great many of Sight-Size teachers and disciples do treat it as an end-all method, and /ic/ is used to these fuckers acting like they're better than everyone else despite this:
>>2273539
reality. IMO sight-size is a great training tool for observation+patience, but must be viewed as a stepping stone and learned alongside construction.
>>2275120
Your an adult fucking man (or woman). Just because a teacher tells someone something doesn't mean it's correct. Adult thinking people should know this. The anons shitposting in this thread have never tried it, let alone gone to a school where a teacher tried to get them to do it. They're just lazy fuckers trying to make excuses why not to try hard shit.
It's not the methods fault, no need for all the angst about it people. If you don't want to try it, don't.
Juts tools brah.
Actually I've got a good question: these drawings are supposed to be sub-millimeter accuracy, but how do you achieve that when your hands blur up to focus on your drawing?
For example, say you have a vertical marked off on your plumb line for a point, then you go to get the horizontal distance with your string. You line up one thumb on the imaginary plumb line and one on the point. However, if your focus is on the cast, your thumbs are blurry. Even if you hold very still, the blurriness causes a 3cm or so margin of error when you measure and go to mark a point. What do?
I mean, using the string to measure a horizontal to a general area works, but then to get it perfect I pretty much just have to glance back and forth once some of the lines and value are in. I can't measure distance between a single point and the plumb line just by glancing, I need lines or value. This makes the early stages super arduous because no matter what I know I've got errors I won't see until I'm making lines.
to make matters worse, I've got a shake and can't hold perfectly still for more than a half second. I just have to time it really tight. But with the whole focus thing it's just goddamn impossible to get accurate marks without filling in more of the drawing.
>>2275272
for example I'm working on it right now and my left hand moves half a centimeter each time my heart beats. over the distance to my subject that translates to 3 inches.
>>2275272
>>2275438
See this is why cast drawings aren't always the greatest.
I know that the end goal of a cast drawing is to literally make a perfect photo-copy drawing. But I feel that its better give up super accurate details for a better image. You can't create perfect drawings of casts, so why put so much effort into something that is so grueling and slow...that's what cameras are for.
>>2271557
You seem to be the one that triggered m8.
Never said it's useless either.
Also, thanks for the advice on 'making it', Mr. arguing on a Tuvan Throat Singing forum.
>>2275272
Physical measuring deivces such as sticks and strings are meant as an aid to your eye. They let you check if you're ROUGHLY right, they aren't exact tools.The purpose of the early block-in is to have something to work with. The better you'll get the better you can judge proportion with less information on the paper, early on. In the end it comes down to having a sharp eye. The good news is that it's really not more complicated than that once you learn the most basic techniques. The bad news is there is no quick fix to aquire that. It takes work. Years of work.
Cast studies are great for learning to observe subtleties of form, but the observational skills you need to nail a decent block-in with the major proportions are best practiced by doing a lot of quick sketches. That was one of my main criticisms of the atelier I went to. You need a shitload of sketching mileage to be able to make effective block-ins, and at least where I went quick sketching wasn't emphasized.
>>2275859
>Claims he's not triggered, mad enough to reply to 3 day old post.
Ok mate.
>>2275879
cool, thanks for the advice. Yeah, I've actually got a fair amount of quick sketching practice, I went to a weekly figure session for 4.5 years. It made me a lot better, but I stagnated because I didn't know enough anatomy and didn't have the patience to get stuff right.
