![voltaire_and_rousseau_by_worgue-d4yp7fd[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Bk77HN7.jpg "voltaire_and_rousseau_by_worgue-d4yp7fd[1].jpg")
>Hobbes believed in the wretched nature of man
>His ideal government type was an authoritarian "whatever works" regime that suppressed the wretched nature of man
>While a monarchy is never explicitly preferred, we can imply this from the authoritarian bend of his philosophy
>Locke and Rousseau believed man was inherrently good
>A nation could only exist as a free association of individuals, with a right to overthrow the social contract if it no longer respected their inalienable rights and liberties
>Republican model is preferred
Is it possible to believe in Hobbes' wretched nature of man while still preferring the state model of Rousseau and Locke without suffering from cognitive dissonance?
Most men are ill suited to govern themselves let alone others
>>1175626
hobbes was comming from a rather fucked up period in his peoples history so that probably reflects, but generaly disregarding humans are dangerous animals is shortsighted and stupid, not to mention disrespectfull
this dosent say anything explicitly negative about humans, its just a fact, it makes us potentialy problematic, but we all deal with ourseves one way or another
with this in mind you should logicaly preffer a goverment that can be voted out of power, othervise deposed or simply rejected, the last thing you want is to be ruled by a group of dangerous animals that you just cant get rid off, thats often how violence breaks out, as in the mass armed sort
The wretched nature of man cannot be universal, otherwise any government placed above him would be wretched as well, being itself man-made.
>>1175653
>Implying there's such a thing as a government that isn't wretched
>Hobbes believed in the wretched nature of man
Right
>His ideal government type was an authoritarian
oh boy
>"whatever works"
ok
>regime that suppressed the wretched nature of man
which itself is part of the wretchedness
If man is wretched then so it the goverment he makes up.
>>1175682
Well, the way out is if you believe in God, you can have a government that comes from or is inspired by God and so derives it's legitimacy. If you don't believe in God or don't believe he should decide how we run our affairs, perhaps other authorities can be used?
>>1175682
People wretchedly desire the protection of their self-interest. It doesn't suppress the nature of man, it's a joining of wretchedness to create the ultimate wretched being which can suppress the exhibiting of wretchedness in lesser beings.
>>1175643
It's completely correct though, look up total depravity.
>>1175626
might be relevant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dwz_Z62e0s
>>1175626
>Is it possible to believe in Hobbes' wretched nature of man while still preferring the state model of Rousseau and Locke without suffering from cognitive dissonance?
>Not compromising with a govemrent which for the most part is absolute in its authority and can not be sfopped on an issue-by+issue basis, but despites it's power is still democratically elected, and can be recalled if the people havr lost faith in the government as a whole, not a single issue.
Only thing he got right
>>1175626
>Protestant Anglocuck.
>I naturally believe men are evil, OH and we must have a King!
Yeap, nobody couldve seen that coming.
>>1175626
I think so.
They key to it is to create a set of rules where the interests of the individual and society become aligned. If you do good, you are rewarded for doing good. Inherently good people will get their just rewards, leading these people to success and influence. Wretched people will do good as a side effect in order to get ahead. You still benefit from their skills and talents, even if they're doing it for the "wrong" reasons. If he gets ahead, it can be argued that he might actually be doing more good than someone doing it for the "right" reasons.
Avoid at all cost, rules that encourage people to do societal evil. Those who are inherently good will be sidelined and disadvantaged. Those who do wrong are rewarded and further given the means to do more wrong.
Lets take simple economic markets for a second. When you eliminate negative externalities and anti-competitive behavior (important), people end up rewarded by providing a benefit. If one person makes widgets because he thinks they will improve society, then he gets rewarded in accordance to the benefit as dictated by the prevailing market rate. The market rate will tell him the way that society would best value his talents. The same would go for someone selfish and only looking out for themselves. In order to gain personal profit, as a consequence, he provides a service to buyers of mutual benefit.
On the other hand, there's lots of predatory businesses that are scams or fraudulent that encourage destructive behavior to the detriment of society. They're doing no one a service but themselves, and their personal gain may be even less than the loss they cause, resulting in a net societal loss. Good people are the victims, but not the perpetrators in this example. Good people get sidelines and can't compete. Wretched people get increasing means to prey on other people.
>>1175626
