So /his/ I've always had problems with the way Hinduism spread throughout SEAsia. How come there is hardly any literature or work done on the pre-Hindu beliefs that were prevalent before Hinduism spread throughout SEAsia? Why did the native peoples adopt Hinduism in the first place? Did Hinduism in SEAsia have any influences from the Pre Hindu belief systems? Basically why do we know so little about this era in History?
>>988393
Hindus were basically Indo-Europeans, the same ones who invaded Europe. Powerful people who dominated and wiped out the native cultures. Although in India the natives got pushed south and maintained an identity.
>>988443
Thank you /pol/.
But how come we know so little about what was there before hand?
>>988393
>pre-Hindu beliefs
Let me draw a comparison with the unfortunate history of pre-Islamic Arabic polytheism.
We know a few things, like the names of the goddesses, that even the Qur'an references. However, there's a problem:
WE DO NOT HAVE A GODSDAMNED MYTHOLOGY
NO CREATION MYTH
NO THEOGONY
NO END TIMES
NOT A SINGLE STORY
Sometimes you have to consider that the information you're looking for has been lost.
Hinduism in SEA came in 200 BCE, so it's kind of late for any suriving oral tradition to inform us. We're talking over two Millennia for crying out loud.
Was there even literacy back in the day, for you to find any primary written sources?
Were there artisans to make icons?
>>988456
The field of SEAsian history is a relatively new field and there is relatively little historical material from the periods prior to the Sanskritisation of SEA and beyond. As for the spread of Hinduism, it found its way through trade and commerce and was adopted by regional kings in order to legitimise their rule, concentrate authority etc.
>>988456
How is that /pol/? It's literally history. The Proto-Indo-Europeans, who lived somewhere on the Eurasian steppe, suddenly decided to migrate, invading Europe, Iran and India. Hence while the languages, religions and cultures of all 3 regions have so much in common and clearly develop from one source.
The Indus Valley civilisation was probably what was there before, it's getting more popular amongst archaeologists now that the era of Eurocentric history is ending.
>>988520
>Hinduism in SEA came in 200 BCE
According to "Religion in Southeast Asia: An Encyclopedia of Faiths and Cultures", there's evidence of Indian settlements being already there in the sixth Century BCE, this shit is getting impossible.
>>988533
>The field of SEAsian history is a relatively new field
I wish your historians and archaeologists all the best luck in the world, but you have to understand you kind of need a miracle, like some buried city full of religious buildings to unearth.
>>988549
The spread of Hinduism in SEAsia wasn't through conquest, except for the Chola empire, as more like through trade links and shit. Kind of similar to the spread of Islam in Malaysia Indonesia
>>988533
>in order to legitimise their rule, concentrate authority etc.
How did the adoption of a foreign belief system legitimize their rule though? Usually when people adopt foreign belief systems doesn't the opposite happen?
>>988578
I'm really, really suspecting there was some nothing more sophisticated than a primitive animism.
I hope I'm wrong.
>>988590
gradual conversion, calling yourself a Godking and having the arms to prove your point, and the general trend of plebs not caring what goes on beyond trying to survive and pay taxes
>>988590
with Buddhism specifically, you also had a symbiotic relationship between monastic orders and kings, where in exchange for monetary support the monks would call out the king's name in ceremonies etc.
>>988592
Well most likely it was.
But still it's weird how none of that primitive animist survived at least somewhat to the present day
>>988520
The Torah was an oral tradition for a thousand years or more. Earliest written copies come from after the diaspora, IIRC.
>>988731
>What are some of the Philippine tribes.
Even Hindu Religion arriving in the Islands was warped into something completely localized and irrecognizable by some of the more sophisticated tribes with contacts in Hindu Java. A lot of Hindu gods became completely localized & syncretized into animist folklore as to be irrecognizable to their original Hindu roots.
>>988731
Primitive animism tends to develop into what we would call paganism when the culture is developing, the closest examples of the finished products are Shintoism and Hinduism.
Judaism is like a weird mix of invented religions like Christianity and Buddhism, and evolved religions like Shintoism and Hinduism.
>>988578
Migration/conquest, difficult things to define in such times and very interlinked. Whatever it was they became top dogs
>>988755
>A lot of Hindu gods became completely localized & syncretized into animist folklore as to be irrecognizable to their original Hindu roots.
Ignore this redundancy, fugg.
>>988748
how are you sure that it was an oral tradition for over a thousand years prior?
>>988781
But it wasn't even really migration.
You look up the Haplogroups there isn't much Indo European Admixture in SEAsia
>>988792
The earliest complete written copies are around 1,500 years old. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest texts actually found, IIRC.
Even if it were written down after the Captivity, that is still the greater part of a thousand years where it was oral tradition.
>>988802
>haplogroups
I am not convinced that anyone on 4chan knows what a haplogroup is.
>>988731
Religions are processes.
By the time Hinduism came it had gone through all the possible historical transitions to become a very complex and very rich tradition.
It gave you complete schools of philosophy dealing with epistemology, ethics, metaphysics... It gave you yoga. It gave you personal gods and goddesses you can dedicate yourself to, with elaborate mythologies, liturgies, and iconography.
Hinduism was able to respond to all manner of spiritual needs the SEA people could possibly have, if their religion was as primitive as I suspect, I say they would convert on the spot. I was just too "cool."
>>988748
The thing is, the Hebrews stuck to their religion wherever they went.
Where did the SEA folk religion go, when they have not only Hinduism replacing it, but even some Shenism, the Chinese folk religion?
>>988806
>After captivity
Literally biggest meme ever.
There isn't even any archeological proof Jews were in Egypt
>>988835
>Elaborate yourself
Do these look/sound Hindu to you? And its just the Tagalog tribes. The others had their own interpretations and panthons.
Also a lot of Philippine tribes were big on ancestor worship. Even the Hindu-influenced ones. Gods weren't everything and your ancestors interceded for your behalf to the gods.
As for survival: obviously the Philippines is predominantly Catholic nowadays and before that, Islam took over and converted most of the Indianized Flips, but Northern Tribes (who, might I add, are completely untouched by Indian influence) in the Philippines continue their Ancestor Worshipping ways.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_mythology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_of_Indonesia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_mythology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_folklore
Maybe more SEA peoples also had their pantheon.
>>988865
>In Tagalog mythology, Mayari (also known as Bulan) is the beautiful and most charming lunar deity who was the daughter of Bathala, the king of the gods, to a mortal woman. Mayari is the Goddess of Combat, War, Revolution, Hunt, Weaponry, Beauty, Strength, Moon and Night. She is known as the most beautiful deity in Bathala's court. She is the sister of Tala, the goddess of stars and Adlaw (also known as Apolaki), god of the sun. However, in some mythology, Tala is Mayari's daughter.
>In a Pampangan myth, Bathala died without leaving a will and Apolaki and Mayari fought over who would rule the earth. Apolaki wanted to rule the earth alone while Mayari insisted on equal rights. The two fought out the conflict with bamboo clubs until Mayari lost an eye. After Apolaki saw what he had done, he agreed to rule the earth together but at different times. However, her light is dimmer than her brother's due to the loss of her eye.
And then Mayari was the best girl.
>>988817
>The thing is, the Hebrews stuck to their religion wherever they went.
No...
There are some that did, and they claim direct descent from the Jews of the diaspora, but for the most part they converted, to Christianity or Islam.
And even then, you have to see that Judaism 2016 is about as different from Judaism 1 AD as Christianity 2016 is from Judaism 1 AD.
>Where did the SEA folk religion go, when they have not only Hinduism replacing it, but even some Shenism, the Chinese folk religion?
Sounds like it was absorbed into these traditions, and then lost completely when Islam or Buddhism took hold.
>>988826
Babylonian Captivity.
>>988865
Bathala (Betara = Bhattara) and the Taglog word for deities and mystic beings, Diwata (Devata) are from Hindu origin though.
But yeah, very localized.
>>988900
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_of_Indonesia
>According to the myth of some ethnic groups in Sulawesi, the earth sat upon the back of gigantic babirusa.
You know, OP, I'm starting to like this thing.
No, I don't think they were "just animists" anymore. They each had their pantheons.
>>988973
I'm also starting to think they followed the Hindu colonialists' example, and sort of came up with polytheistic pantheons of their own & organized their mythologies a little better as a response.
Now if Hinduism ends up adopting their gods, like the Romans did with Isis, it means that ultimately Hindus and the pre-Hinduism pagans influenced one another, as it is pratically always the case with the world's many paganisms.
Well, the history here is far better than I had hoped. Rejoice, OP. The stuff is there and it's worth talking about.
>>988900
These are all pretty cool.
But I wonder what the Cambodian/Thai/ and Burmese mythologies were like before Hindu conversion
>>988994
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_folklore
http://pharecircus.org/phare-revealed-cambodian-legends-and-myths/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_creatures_in_Burmese_folklore
At this point I don't think there exists a single comprehensive book on the SEA mythologies. It's gonna be a library of tiny booklets, essays and publications
>>989017
Still, I found a single link that gives a quick overview of them:
http://www.cabinetdesfees.com/2010/the-myths-folklore-and-legends-of-south-east-asia-an-annotated-list/
>>989017
I spoke too soon, they realeased the first anthology in English in 2000:
http://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Folklore-South-East-Oxford-Paperbacks/dp/9835600546
Oxford does it again.
And Routledge published Animism in Southeast Asia this year:
https://www.routledge.com/products/9780415713795
>>989017
>She is a flower-eating ogress and the mother of the Shwe Hpyin ('Inferior Gold') brothers
I didn't know my nation had such odd spirit worship.
>>988578
You assume that Vedic Indo-Aryans were pacifists. They weren't.
>>988393
I'm SE Asian. Hindu beleifs actually mixed in with local beleifs. In Thailand we worship Hindu gods alongside local Folk spirits and stuff. I hear that in Balinese Hinduism local beleifs are incorporated as well. By the way there is no united pre Dharmic SE Asian Folk religion. Every tribe and people had thier own beleifs
Southeast Asian, here. Don't know. All I know about my ancestors was that they worshiped trees and didn't have written language. And even the ones they did have dissolved as the Indians, Arabians, and Europeans marched to get rid of the "kaffirs".
My understanding is that Hinduism is like a coalition of religions. A lot of indigenous folk lore was integrated into it for different communities over time and in turn were influenced by Vedic Pantheon. It didn't fully supplant indigenous faiths.
In some places snake worship still happens, Dravidian Tamils still celebrate their god of war.
>>988865
Hanan best girl
Mayari a slut
>>988973
>>988988
I need to get my book on Vedic age again, but Shiva worship was already present in Indus Valley Civilization. The Aryan brought their Indra worship & horse sacrifice ritual. Hinduism is an amalgamation of Indian religion just as said by >>991524
Some scholar argue that SEA local ruler consolidate their power then use Hinduism to legitimize their rule. By it's nature it wasn't hard to 'grafts' Hindu concept & gods to local belief. Local belief about spirits & ancestor still persist in many places, even if Islam had replaced Hindu influence in said places.
>>991741
From Armstrong's Great Transformation:
>Sadly, we know next to nothing about either the Harappans or their religion, even though there are tantalizing hints that some religious cults that would become very important after the Axial Age may have derived from the Indus Valley civilization. Archaeologists have found figurines of a Mother Goddess, stone lingams, and three stamp seals depicting a figure sitting, surrounded by animals, in what looks like the yogic position. Was this the god Shiva? In classical Hinduism, Shiva is lord of animals and a great yogin, but he is not an Aryan deity and is never mentioned in the Sanskrit Vedas. In the absence of any hard evidence, we cannot prove continuity. By the time the first Aryans arrived in the region, the Harappan empire had practically disappeared, but there may have been squatters in the ruined cities. There could have been overlap and interchange, and some of the Aryans may have adopted elements of the local faith and merged it with their own.
I'm confident every Shivaite ever claims he was worshipped well before the Vedas and the IndoEuropeans came
>>991762
Well he was Rudra before Vedic Hinduism. So technically yes, he is older than the Aryan Invasion.
>>988865
Amazing. Abrahamism (the Judeo-Christo-Islamic triple religion which is really one) destroys all diversity and seeks to turn the world into a grey homogeneous mass. Truly the predecessor of liberalism and marxism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deities_of_Philippine_mythology
Gods, gods everywhere
>>992988
If your entire belief system is based on the fact that there is only one god/truth/whatever, it is actively seeking to destroy diversity.
https://books.google.it/books?id=ZWEIdE5m1IcC
Oral Traditions of Southeast Asia and Oceania: A bibliography.
This looks like a super rare book.
