Everything is all about luck/randomization EVERYTHING.
I'm lucky you randomly decided to tell me that.
>>984251
Yes and no
Everything is predetermined
Free will is a myth
But the universe still is probabilistic
if everything is entirely random, how come I have been a human all my life and not randomly turned into a chipmunk or an elephant or some crazy stupid shit?
>>984251
The burden of proof does not lie with me, my friend, but with you.
>>984306
because its random obviously...are you retarded?are you trying to say that there are not enough animals?!?
>>984326
>everything is just chain reaction etc.
>even your thought are not really yours its just your experience and your brain trying to understand what really happened
>your brain is randomly created(reason why all people think differently)
>you're extremely lucky even being on 4chan in the first place and even reading this message right now.i know that its sounds funny but its as simple as that.
>>984328
The only animal here is YOU, dipshit. FUCK YOU
>>984355
>Everything is just a chain reaction
Mate...
>>984356
whatever helps you sleep at night my randomly created friend.
>>984363
Even your reaction has a pattern.It's just the same thing over and over just a little bit more elaborated.
>>984382
>Everything is random
>Even your reaction has a pattern
Mate...
>>984398
Everything is random but your brain still follows a pattern otherwise youre going to become insane.It's the fact that after all these millions of years the exact patterns are the luckiest to be this common.You think that you have a choice but its all chemical being triggered over and over.
>>984295
I mean that's physics though
Right now relativity only makes sense if we consider that everything that will happen has already occurred
Quantum mechanics is probabilistic though
That's why QM and relativity don't really get along much
>>984420
I was trying to see where you were going with this, but you're disappointing. Hone your skills, my man.
>>984251
>Proves you wrong
>>984420
What "millions of years"?
>>984355
>First dubs in a thread about random
Welp, we're done here.
/thread
>>984453
meant not going to stop you from duying because you had no idea about the train nor experienced any pain/observed pain.
/x/ please, get a hold of yourself
>>984473
>/x/
What?
>get a hold of yourself
I can't im just a product of my environment
>>984453
That's not just what I mean
Quantum mechanics is based on probability
It's why both Schrödinger and Einstein thought it was stupid
Relativity is NOT probabilistic in fact it right now the only way it makes sense is if we consider that everything has already happened
>>984461
of pseudo evolution
>>984497
Oh i missread you then(im tired and am going to sleep soon) but anyway there is no need for everything to have happened already to follow the script its just like domino
>>984251
but some things that have been randomized last a long time, like the shape of the continents
then, within a certain timeframe, things become predictable, furthermore within very small periods of time, although things like the weather seem chaotic, they operate within certain parameters
for example we know the outside air temperature tomorrow will not drop below -100 celsius in New York
>>984498
...
>>984561
exactly because there were randomized superior brains who learned how to predict them etc.AFTER ALL IT TOOK MILLION OF YEARS
>>984541
No everything has already occurred
We just can't perceive if because we aren't 4th dimensional beings
>>984591
It cant when it has not even started.
>>984306
You're confusing randomness with discontinuity. That something happened randomly doesn't mean that it can randomly change after
>>984251
more like everything is pre determined and can be calculated, or there is no random
when you grab a ball out of a bag, that one ball you pick can be calculated by how developted your nerves on your hand are, how you determine which ball you grab, how.long you take by past experiences with taking time to decide
the ball movement by how they are built, how the bag is made, how.the wind, gravity change the balls place when they.are shuffled
everything can be calculated to a infinite close degree provided you have the means of more knowledge and better ways of calculating
But how can we be sure the universe doesn't split up in an infinite of universes every time an event occurs ? The quantum phenoma would imply such a possibility
bumpette
You have two routes to pick from.
Both of the routes are the exact same length and bring you to the exact same destination for the exact same starting point. They merely travel in different parts of space-time.
Which route do you choose and why?
>>986958
You cant and it cant happen in the first place.
>>986965
You literally can't make a choice? So instead of going to the supermarket you're going to sit in bed and wet yourself?
>>987009
Yep youre just influenced and its not a choice but just execution.
Everything is dependent on everything.
But we cannot process randomness as we understand it, our brain does not solve quantum equations consciously we act and think as if there is certainty and so our view of the world and language is frame in terms of certainty even if seemingly random things will happen we will say some one thing will/is going to happen as if it will always happen
we can shape the events to fit a certain path
before i decide that i will eat a banana in 20 minutes i will have to decide it consciously first but if i don't from now until then it will likely not happen between now and 20 minutes from now
we can pick out singular events also to ignore
so even if random things can happen between now and 20 minutes say i am handed an orange or the roof of the house fell, i can still get the banana at that time
the consciousness of thoughts impact the randomness of an outcome
the decision for a banana is a high conscious low impact one but at times you can make a seemingly trivial decision that has drastic outcome somewhere down the timeline
so your act may enhance the randomness of another event
>>987087
>so even if random things can happen between now and 20 minutes say i am handed an orange or the roof of the house fell, i can still get the banana at that time
Of couse you can this is really stupid argument because having other influences doesn't mean they can stop the already made execution (""""choice"""") but they can also influence you and make you "change" your mind really easy.
>>987119
sorry for being stupid
>>987123
what?
>>986647
But you just refuted yourself?
>>987187
>But you just refuted yourself?
How?Its still random because we don't know the outcome anyway
The only true god is RNGesus
>>987341
cringe
>>986958
Is that Timur?
B U M P
>>984276
>Free will is a myth
notthisshitagain.jpg.gif.png.tiff.mov.mp4.flac.wmp.txt.dll.exe.psd.dwg.obj
>>987709
>Free will
>real
lmao
>>987741
>implying it isn't relative like everything else
It's not real if someone owns you, it's real if you own yourself.
>>987749
>fuck having chemicals and shiet
>>987757
What part of relative don't you get?
>>987785
>own yourself
>of already set rules and patterns
what?
>>987798
Do you not have any options in your life?
>b-but the options were predetermined
Doesn't matter, free will is part of the subjective experience as a relative quality based on how many options your will has to exercise itself over in the world. Every little thing about the world that the achievements of science allow us to take control of increases our free will in the world.
>b-but if it's subjective then it's meaningless
This is what retards think, but the subjective is the only thing any of us have access to, it is literally fucking everything we experience.
>>987834
>Doesn't matter,
It seems like you didn't get that you have NO options.Maybe you should read the thread before posting.
>>987886
Actually I live in the suburb outside NYC. Tonight I'm probably gonna order out. I have, I dunno, easily over 50 options.
Right now I'm at work. When I applied for this job there were 2 other jobs ready to hire me. I chose this one out of my 3 options in total.
Last night I purchased a new bookshelf for my room online. I saw dozens and dozens of bookshelves I could have bought that would fit the space I'm filling. I chose the one I wanted the most.
And you know, these are small things. Imagine someone living today with $500 million sitting in the bank. Imagine his options. Imagine a rich celebrity or natural born genius whom tons of people love, or a dictator who has successfully and in such a way managed to govern a whole people under his command without them bringing on a revolution against him — imagine all the kinds of choices they could now make.
Randomness equates to chaos, but chaos is relative, just like order is. An idiot might see chaos everywhere, because he understands nothing. A genius might see order everywhere, because he understands everything. Relativity shits all over this thread's absolutist crap.
>>987925
>all this blabbering without following my advice
>I chose the one I wanted the most.
>We are at it once again.
So why did you chose that one instead of the other?
>>987975
>So why did you chose that one instead of the other?
I compared them and concluded one was better.
Being predetermined to do a thing does not logically follow that free will cannot be experienced. An guess what nig, what we experience is all there is (illusion IS reality).
>>988037
>I compared them and concluded one was better.
...
And how were you able to compare them?
>Being predetermined to do a thing does not logically follow that free will cannot be experienced
>Being predetermined
>free will
What does that even mean.
>>988056
>And how were you able to compare them?
With my capacity to think, genius.
>What does that even mean.
Well, being predetermined means there is a causal foundation to all phenomena. Free will is one's ability to make decisions and act on them. Both are interpretations, not fact.
>>988069
>calculated conditioned subjectivity
>""think""
>""my""
>predetermined means there is a foundation to ALL phenomena
now you understand
>>984276
>Free will is a myth
For you!
>>984251
>Mfw I learned about determinism and got really depressed and I'm too stupid to figure out a way for me to see it as irrelevant whether or not everything is determined so I'm stuck thinking everything is meaningless because I'm retarded
>>988105
>now you understand
And you still don't.
>>988223
Youre the one who have hard time understanding predetermination and even adding free will on top of that
>>988241
>Both are interpretations, not fact.
Again, what part of relative don't you get? Seems like you don't get the whole concept of relativity at all.
>>988259
>not a fact
it is
also its nice how you reply to parts which you prefer to
>>988365
>it is
For you.
And I mean, for someone who is so adamant about determinism, how do you not see determinism's end conclusion?
Every phenomenon has a causal foundation -- INCLUDING THE EVENT OF DETERMINISM AS AN IDEA. That, too, is linked to causality -- hence it is an interpretation, a product of perspective, not objective fact independent of a causal chain / perspective.
You're prattling on about these concepts while only considering half yourself in the equation.
>>988413
I already proved to you already why its a fact without any refutations from you.Youre just grasping at straws now.
>perspective
>
>considering half yourself in the equation.
but I fully realize the fact
>>988439
If all things are predetermined, then so is the idea, and all ideas are valid in the sense that they were meant to come into existence, a process of which, in a sense, almost affirms their right to exist. Such as free will.
You still haven't said shit about free will as a relative subjective experience, like you deny that entire spectrum of human perception. We can stay on this spectrum and deny the universal truth of determinism (universal truth being something we cannot actually access, as determinism itself dictates).
>>984276
>Free will is a myth
Free will is a measurement of power over other wills. How is that a myth?
>>988500
>If all things are predetermined, then so is the idea, and all ideas are valid in the sense that they were meant to come into existence, a process of which, in a sense, almost affirms their right to exist. Such as free will.
>they were "meant" to come into existence.
This is just so ridiculous.Meant doesn't mean that it happened
>You still haven't said shit about free will as a relative subjective experience,
holy shit read the fucking thread.i even proved it in your responds.
>>988601
>Meant doesn't mean that it happened
Same for determinism.
>>988640
I meant "meant" by you.
>>988654
Doesn't change what I said. Determinism "happens" just like free will "happens," because they are both interpretations and not facts.
But really, just replace "free will" with "freedom." To say "free will doesn't exist" is like saying "freedom doesn't exist," but we all know it's not that cut and dry. Freedom from what? Freedom to do what? Anything at all?
It's relative. It's not a matter of "I have free will" or "I don't have free will" but rather, how much of it do you have? The answer to that depends on what you compare yourself to.
>>988724
I cant see how free will just happens.
Freedom doesn't truly exists and its a man made word after all.
Its relative if you want it to be but as absolute its not.
>>988798
What do you mean by "doesn't truly exists"?
To me, the only comparison that leads to that, is if you compare us to the whole universe all at once. Compared to the universe, yeah, we're not free. But compared to everything else? We are free at varying degrees then.
>>988825
You're not free because your thoughts and perceptions are just influences.You dont really have a choice.You was going to pick it anyway because youre conditioned to think that its the better choice.
>>988842
You're comparing us to the universe without realizing it. Try comparing people, or different species. We have different amounts of freedom (free will) then.
>>988863
Its just evolution which increase our capacity for more "opportunities".
>>988880
>"opportunities"
Only worth wrapping in quotes if you're still comparing us to the universe.
>>988903
It just means that we have more ways to interact with the environment.I dont compare it with the universe.Its like buy a new car that is way better than the last.
>>984326
Not...
>The burden of proof is not for me, my friend, but FOR YOU.
>>987925
>mfw I'm hoping for a good defense for freewill but this guy just ends up not even understanding the basic arguments against it
>>984251
So what do I blame when I roll a shit life?
>>984251
>Mfw the most random thing in a random world would be random order
>>989925
The dice-maker
>>989925
>>990166
>>988171
>Why does meaning need to be associated with free will?
>Why do you need meaning?
>Can I perceive meaning?
>Does meaning exist?
>Am I capable of knowing it if it does?
>What proof do I have that determinism is true and eternal?
>What proof do I have that the metaphysical nature of the universe is static and unchangeable?
>>990136
I applaud your efforts but the true luck based dubs are mine.
>>988863
>varying degrees of free will
Top bad we're still not truly free, which was the point of the whole thing. Quit trying to make a copout
>>990455
>it only matters if we are 100% free guys!!!!
Keep bitching. Or just stop being stupid and comparing individuals to the whole universe, because that shit barely matters anyway. You don't gain much from comparing us to the whole universe. It's one of those truths that doesn't have much value in knowing it.
>>990822
Its nice how you didn't even reply to my last post and just post the universe bullshit to other people.
kek
BUM
Is that all?No other contenders?
>>990975
No point in replying to someone that's not getting what I'm saying.
>>991778
I proved it to you without comparing it with the universe and now you cant accept the loss
>>991790
>I proved it to you without comparing it with the universe
You never did this. "You're not free because your thoughts and perceptions are just influences" is only valid on the level of the universe, you can only even talk about this when comparing everything to the whole universe, which you're subconsciously doing. On the level of individuals we have varying degrees of it.
But why should I bother, when you're too thick to understand that there are only interpretations and no facts?
>>991817
Does a super computer have free will because he 1000% better than a computer from the 80s and can do more things?Like i said you reply to thing that you prefer to.I told that we just have more ways to interact with the environment which doesn't equal to free will.
>>991837
told you already*
>>990822
Of course the whole free will thing is irrelevant in the long run, but for some reason I thought we were having a discussion about it. You just admitted what we wanted, so that's close enough.
>>991837
>Does a super computer have free will because he 1000% better than a computer from the 80s and can do more things?
If the computer is able to collect its own data via observation, perform its own functions based on said data and write its own scripts, then yeah, it can be said to be slightly more advanced (i.e. be freer) than a simpler computer that can't do those things but only perform a routine function that a human tells it to run.
>I told that we just have more ways to interact with the environment which doesn't equal to free will.
Actually it means we have more free will, because it's a measurement, not an absolute like you seem to be treating it over and over again.
>>991870
Algorithm is not a observation.Its the same with humans just more abstract.
>>991876
An observation is simply the act of making and recording a measurement. On an individual level it is completely possible and done all the time by everyone. Of course, compared to the universe like you are still doing, the concept of knowledge via observation doesn't hold up.
Regardless, you didn't actually respond to what I said about it being freer.
This really is fucking pointless with you. The divide between us is eternal here.
>>991892
...
You dont observe it really you see what you're made to see.
>being freer.
How can you even be freer when you just act on more influences rather than less which you somehow consider less free.
>>991908
We don't act on influences on the narrowed perspective of the individual's conscious view, we act merely on our desires there. When I chose to order pizza last night the mental process wasn't "I am doing this because I must act on deterministic influences of my being." It was more like "I fucking want pizza so I will get it."
>>991920
Do you even read what you post?
Of course you don't act on them because they are FUCKING NATURAL ANYWAY.
>It was more like "I fucking want pizza so I will get it."
Do I have to tell you again why you simply want that pizza.
>>991944
You're one of these dumb cunts with his head in the clouds thinking, because your interpretation of things negates the existence of things which others' interpretations see, that those things "truly" don't exist. Except you are operating under an interpretation as well, you are not exempt from this, you aren't some non-human omniscient and omnipresent God but merely an individual like all of us whose knowledge is founded solely on your organic structure, and if you only pulled your head out of your own ass for a minute and stopped and thought about what others meant by the words they used, you'd realize that NO ONE is ever wrong, but that some people are merely "wronger" than others, because some interpretations are stronger (i.e. they hold up against more arguments) than others.
I rarely, almost never quote the Bible, and I'm not a Christian at all, but:
>Matthew 7:4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
So yeah. If you actually fucking bothered to read anything, particularly the continental philosophers, you wouldn't be here trying to argue against someone who has reached your insight and moved beyond it already, making the attempt to incorporate not only this insight but all others all at once.
>>984251
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
>>992185
What are you trying to say?
>>992003
>but that doesn't make me wrong
Who said you were?
>>992200
>if someone (the Demon) knows the precise location and momentum of every atom in the universe, their past and future values for any given time are entailed; they can be calculated from the laws of classical mechanics.
He lived in the time before Einstein obviously, but the point is, it makes theoretical sense to know how anything will turn out if you know the certain conditions, like their position and trajectory.
He's just extending what we know about classical mechanics, to individual atoms.
>>992235
thats what i talked about the whole thread not that its random by itself but that we cant comprehend it (yet) and that determenism is true.
>>992229
if youre the guy i replied earlier obviously you and there are no things like subjective or relative truths.
>>992265
>there are no things like subjective or relative truths
This very debate suggests otherwise.
>>992292
everything operates on absolute truths
>>992300
The assumption of them, sure.
>>992310
>it just werks
>>992317
What the fuck does that even mean? Are you drunk or something?
>>992354
I just quoted you.Youre trying to say that everything just works without any reason which is not true.
>>992362
That's not what I'm saying at all. You are fucking drunk beyond comprehension Jamal, go take a nap or something.
>>992373
Youre the nigger here.Even other people told you that anything will turn out if you know the certain conditions but nah muh relatively muh you cant know nuffin.
>>992381
>but nah muh relatively muh you cant know nuffin
>>992390
>once again he shows his great argumentative skills
pic related you
>>992381
>Even other people told you that anything will turn out if you know the certain conditions
Makes no difference that there are multiple people who believe a certain thing. I'm also not saying that knowledge is impossible; just that absolute knowledge is impossible. No one, not even scientists think that absolute knowledge is possible — everything is a theory in science, i.e. a hypothesis that has yet to be proven false.
>>992516
>just that absolute knowledge is impossible
Or rather, that its existence is an interpretation that is not absolute, just like this one.
>>984276
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TDC9s-Kt-8
>>992516
Its makes no difference but you doesn't respond to any of them pretending like you dont hear them.Just because we dont have absolute knowledge now doesn't mean that its impossible and that its stops us from understanding and doing things which are obviously not relative nor subjective but absolute.
bu
mp
>>984251
I n f o r m a t i o n
n
f
o
r
man really read about information and entropy
a
t
i
o
n
This fucking thread is why people need to start with the greeks
A R I S T O T L E
R
I
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T
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L
E
>>995421
N A H
A
H
>>995421
>I come now to the question of how determinism is related to involuntariness. Many commentators nowadays hold one or more parts of the following view. Determinism creates a problem for belief in the voluntariness of actions. Regrettably, but inevitably, Aristotle was unaware of this problem, and so failed to cope with it
bumo
