Share Japanese art, propaganda, and modern depictions.
No anime or weeaboos. Historical interest only from the first Hermit Kingdom.
>>983894
Japs are savages.
Always wondered why they didn't use shields. There were pavise, but that's it.
>>983941
No iron
>>983941
Their original warfare was mainly about arrows and horse archery their heavy armor had large pauldrons against those and foot archers used said pavise. In close combat, they preferred large two-handed weapons, then again, no shield allowed.
Then they went full long spear and pike blocks plus either bows or guns, so no shield once more.
How was it that only Japan was able to create Bushido and the concept of honor and respect in warfare when nothing like it exists anywhere else in Asia?
>>984534
"Bushido" wasn't created before the end of the Edo era though.
There was no "honor and respect" during the feudal era, treason was common, people changed allegiance at the last moment, they ganged up on enemies with their retainers, going 10 against 1, etc...
The bushido as a code of warfare is a modern invention of samurai born people who never had to go to war and romanticize it.
>>984554
You literally have no clue what you're talking about. 47 ronin is fabrication?
>>984554
A lot of blame for romanticizing bushido is placed on later samurai who never actually went to war, but it's actually the fault of nationalists who needed some way to reinstall pride in Japanese heritage at a time when the name of the game was "become as European as possible" so they came up with a bullshit version of bushido.
>>984534
Bushido is literally Confucianism applied to warriors, and it only developed after the samurai turned into glorified retainers
>>984575
47 ronin is a late event that has nothing to do with war and warfare.
Besides, many people going full-bushido said that the 47 ronin should have killed themselves on the spot rather than go after and elaborated revenge and that their action wasn't "bushido-like".
Fact is that japanese warfare of the feudal era was just as treacherous as any others really.
>>984575
It's time to stop posting
This one's always been cool.
>>984580
This and that, if you read the Hagakure which dated late 18th century, you can see the "bushido" of the 20-30's already there, at least in the mind of some people.
But yeah, it's really people who needed to go to war fabricating an ideology based on people who never went to war that dreamed about how awesome the people who actually went to war were. 20th century Bushido is a romanticization of a romanticization.
>>984534
Actually, Bushido is derived from a similar chinese tradition (As are most things in Japan). It's why the second Sino-Japanese war was particularly horrifying and bloody. You had two armies with doctrines based off death before capture, slugging it as hard as possible.
>>984630
Sounds like Europe on the eve of WWI jacking off to romantic era descriptions of chivalry and classical epic heroism
>>984641
China is the equivalent of Greece and Rome for East Asian culture
i was just reading these
Rhoda Blumberg - Commodore Perry in the Land of the Shogun
>http://www.bakumatsu.ru/lib/Commodore_Perry_in_the_Land_of_the_Shogun.pdf
Ian Nish - The Iwakura Mission in America & Europe
>http://www.bakumatsu.ru/lib/The_Iwakura_Mission_in_America_and_Europe.pdf
Marius B. Jansen - The Making of Modern Japan
>http://www.bakumatsu.ru/lib/Making_of_modern_Japan_Marius_B._Jansen.pdf
also anyone know something interesting in jap history? i would like to know
>>984641
>>984649
Bullshit, bushido was Japanese at its core. The war in China was bloody because both sides - especially the Japanese - were hopped up on propaganda 24/7 and saw their enemy as vermin and not human. The Chinese are historically extremely arrogant and the Japanese had extreme propaganda to where the populace went from being sorry for themselves for not being European to wanting to crush the American-British-Chinese conspiracy with delusions of superiority.
>>984641
>It's why the second Sino-Japanese war was particularly horrifying and bloody. You had two armies with doctrines based off death before capture, slugging it as hard as possible.
Are you fucking stupid? They were brutal because simply put war is brutal.
>>984683
No not bullshit. Even the root word of Bushido "Bushi" is derived from a chinese tradition. This, as can be seen is the warrior ideal of the Bushido idea.
>>983894
>japan general
>no weeaboos
I wish newfag /r/edditors weren't allowed
>>984641
You are FUCKING retard stop talking out of your ass fuckface.
>>984706
Yes, because China and Japan have the same cultural lineage. But this is like saying the Grande Armee is derived from a Roman tradition, it's just so far removed from the original thing that it's useless to bring up.
>>984726
>Bushido derives from the Chinese word Bushi which has a similar meaning
>I'm retarded.
>>984726
umad bro¿
>>984715
Hello newfag
I know you're trying hard to fit in but anime fan =/= weeaboo
Most of us on /a/ dislike Japan's retarded culture and boring "history"
3D is not 2D
>>984706
>I will make sweeping generalizations and ignore far more specifics facts that can be located in history and sperg out like the faggot I am.
Bushido writ large in the Imperial Meiji Education system had very little to do with the philosophy as it was understood prior to the mass inculcation of emperor worship in Japanese schooling after the westernization.
>>984683
I'm not sure I would agree with Japanese to its core but it was definitely fairly unique to Japan. China and Japan really start diverging after the Mongols rape China and basically cuck it until the communists.
>>984730
That's an awful argument. All of japanese kanji derives from Chinese characters, but that doesn;t necessarily mean the concept behind it is the same or remotely similar, so either you're talking out of your ass of a 50 center.
>>984741
no fucking shit retard, but a japan general without weeaboos is like america without burgers. Look at what you yourself wrote, ken-sama.
>>984730
>Hurr durr China invented gunpowder, so every single battle in the world that was won with guns is thanks to China
>>984649
This pretty much. It's almost surprising how most things I thought were Japanese were brought over from China. I just learned last week that tea ceremonies, rock gardening, Bonsai trees, et cetera were all from China. Explains why the Chinese thought Japanese were dumb barbarians until Japan BTFO'ed them in the Imjin war (1592).
>>984362
>Iron shields
almost all shields are made of wood
>>984824
>Japan BTFO'ed them in the Imjin war
You mean the First Sino-Japanese War, right? The Japanese invasions of Korea failed.
Don't post that video.
You know the one.
Don't post it.
>>984926
Which one?
>>984934
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o
>>984923
Operational failure, but the Japanese won almost every land battles during the war, which sobered up the Korean and Chinese opinions on Japan for centuries to come.
Let's keep in mind that the Japanese were nameless "dwarf barbarians" and pirates for most Chinese during this time, and they never expected them to win any battles, let alone be intelligent enough to stage an organized invasion.
>>983941
>>984509
Except they did, just not as widely used. As they developed in a technological vacuum. The use of hand shields was always directly connected to external interaction in some way.
When the Nihon migrated to the islands from the mainland in the Jōmon period, they brought shields and fought the aboriginals such as the Ainu.
Shields would remain in use through the Yayoi period, and only start declining with the spread of mounted archery as primary combat in the Kofun Period.
The whole time, the Okinawan culture (a heavily aboriginal culture) still made use of wood, iron and turtle shell shields which even today, exist in traditional Okinawan martial arts.
Steel bucklers would eventually make a brief return near the end of the samurai's time, as a form of defense against pistol shot. This was short lived however.
I'll be happy to dump pics and documentation is anyone whishes.
>>984849
And many, from many cultures and periods have been steel too.
>you will never have this much swag
>>985146
This. THey definitely punched above their weight
My favorite anime is either Jin-Roh or the original GitS.
Satoshi Kon is probably my favorite director, Perfect Blue is a great movie.
Lupin III Castle of Cagliestro is pretty good animation wise, and has some really good clever comedy and slapstick.
I tend to watch Moe and SoL stuff when I wanna unwind and escape to a reality full of friendship and cute girls.
Normies need not apply.
>>984824
>>985146
This is why Turnbull's work should be banned.
The numerically inferior Ming force forced the Japanese to retreat from Hanseong.
Byeokjegwan and Jiksan show that the Japanese had trouble dealing with Ming cavalry.
What the Ming did have issues with was discipline and logistics.
>>985323
This is probably among my favorite photos from World War II. The thought that he died for that flag is tragic.
>>985323
My favorite Kurosawa film is either Yojimbo or Seven Samurai.
I've been meaning to watch his more recent stuff like Ran or anything in color.
Haven't seen Rashomon yet, but heard good things.
Also Battle Royale is a classic that everyone should see.
>>985331
My favorite nip snack is either onigiri or yakisoba.
The japs new what they were doing with takoyaki and pokki.
Mochi is pretty top tier aswell, not sure what kind of world we'd live in where fish flake onigiri didn't exist.
Let's not even get into the Adult industry, what with the japs are coming up with.
The toys their coming up with combined with the upcoming VR generation will be glorious.
>>983941
In Europe soldiers who wore a helmet and a breastplate already discarded shields though.
>>983894
>>985345
pocky is hella overrated desu
its just a pretzel stick with some cheap chocolate covering.
calpico however is the nectar of the gods
7th century Japanese attire
>>985393
>>985361
That is a broad generalization that is patently not true. Shields were still in use right up into the end of pike and shot.
Shieldmen used shields. Those are 15thC polearmsmen in your pic.
>>985493
>patently not true
How so? I never said all did, just the majority.
>>985539
Because its not the majority. Shieldmen were ubiquitous. Full plate armour negated the need for shields for people who could afford it.
>>985389
what anime is this
>>985554
>Because its not the majority. Shieldmen were ubiquitous.
Where?
In Italy and the Iberian peninsula shields remained popular but North of the Alps is an entirely different story. Take Western Europe during the 100 years war and i'd bet the people without shields outnumbered the people with one by a fair margin.
post your favorite quotes by japanese
Iudaei delendi sunt
- Nobunaga Oda
>>985595
"some of you are alright
don't go to kyoto shrine tomorrow"
mitsuhide
>>985595
"Yamanouchi was a mistake"
Uesugi Kinshen
>>985595
"Volley firing reeeeeeee
matchlocks get out, get out!!!!"
-Takeda
>>985576
>North of the Alps is an entirely different story
>Take Western Europe during the 100 years war and i'd bet the people without shields outnumbered the people with one by a fair margin
Whatever bro. Look at armoury stock listings sometimes.
>>985576
>>985619
Whatever bro. Look at military ordonnances sometimes.
Goodnight
>>985574
kancolle
>>985729
>>983894
>No anime or weeaboos
Do you know where you are omae?
Finally and most importantly, where can I find out more about these hats?
>>985326
>What the Ming did have issues with was discipline and logistics.
And that's all that mattered. Again, BTFO.
>>985393
>>985399
Weird.
I once saw a guy posting pictures of traditional Chinese clothing (hanfu) in an Asian History forum, and all the Weaboos were saying "oh wow, they look so much like Japanese clothing. Were they influenced by Japanese culture?"
CRINGE/RAGE Lv. 1000000000000000000000000000++
>>985802
weirdestboner.jpg
>>985751
A containment board made for people that want to talk about history & humanities?
>>985595
Stab the Koreans, Asian war now! - Toyotomi Hideyoshi
>>985925
>blackened teeth
on what planet would this be regarded as attractive?
>>983894
Why can 11 artists get the armor right, but the faces are always goofy.
>>985331
Seen Hidden Fortress?
Got way more enjoyment out of that than Star Wars.
>>986194
Added to my list
What do you guys think of the Nippon version of what essentially are Japan's Abos?
>>985946
I don't think you know what a containment board is.
/pol/ is a containment board, /mlp/ is a containment board, /his/ is not a containment board, it's a topical board.
>>986166
From my understanding it's supposed to make one look like they have a wide and friendly smile. Basically unlike most cultures, showing one's teeth while smiling was considered gauche for most of Japan's older history.
>>986226
The Ainu are one of the most fascinating aboriginal groups on the planet. They used straight swords (they almost look like a one sided gladius) and small square shields.
>>986268
can you go on about the ainu? I always found them fairly interesting but i'm unsure where I can even read about them.
>>986226
They even fucking look like abbos.
>>986308
Uh, I don't really have much to offer, i'm sorry.
I've picked up little tid-bits here and there but i've never formally studied them.
Most of what we know about the Ainu comes from analyzing their art and oral tradition, so I don't know how much academic info (particularly in the west) you'll find.
I used to have a link to a page with like 30+ color photos of Ainu people and villages but my computer died and I lost it.
There are actually a fair number of Ainu still living in Hokkaido but they have mostly abandoned their traditions and practices. They still speak the Ainu language and live in rural villages though.
>>986337
>The Ainu are one of the most fascinating aboriginal groups on the planet
>Uh, I don't really have much to offer, i'm sorry.
Wanna get slapped, homie?
>>986337
>Ainu
More curious why you consider them so fascinating personally.
>>986226
The fact that they are a completely separate genetic line even today and still survived/are suppressed by the government to the point that the UN has given Japan the stink eye.... In 2011.
Amazing, really. Cool culture and mythology.
>>986319
....The fuck are you smoking?
>>986308
>>986337
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people is actually a decent start.
Don't forget the Okinawan, Emishi and Yamato people.
Pic is an Ainu sword. At the start, the Nihon sword style was much more in line with the continental blades, but started mixing with local shapes.
>>986341
>>986347
Well, tbqh, most of what I know about them relates to Jomon period (pre-Nihon migration) art, which is basically the same art they make today.
A lot of it is based on rolled red clay and very hard-cut stonework. I find them interesting because their artwork is nothing like other primitive cultures. They use a lot of straight edges and very blocky shapes, where-as most ancient art is kinda blobby and undefined.
Their pottery is beautiful too.
As far as their history, I know they have a ton of oral traditions about their fight with the original Nihonese Emperors/kings before Japan's written history. Ainu legend claims that they used to tame Deer as mounts, and allegedly they actually taught the original Nihonese warriors how to into horse/mounted archery.
They also have a lot of secretive rituals and are somewhat matriarchal. Their religion revolves around invisible spirits that live in the forest and it's likely the direct ancestor of Shinto.
After the Boshin war a number of Samurai migrated to Hokkaido and attempted to create a republic in concert with the Ainu who were also opposed to Imperial rule. That obviously got stamped out but they almost had a chance to become an independent country.
During the 20's - 40's there was a very active repression of the Ainu still living on Hokkaido and they tried to stamp out both their language and culture. They managed to keep most of their language (although it supposedly borrows heavily from Japanese these days).
And that's literally everything I know about them. I can't really source any of this stuff though.
>>986347
...Because they are an obscure, highly developed culture that has next to no pop culture exposure, and this is a forum about history and humanity?
>>983894
>>986377
Even today, being even partially Yamato/Emishi/Ainu is something culturally acceptable to discriminate against. Then again, the Japs are racist fucks anyways.
There are no laws against being evicted or fired for Ainu ancestry.
>>986385
>Being racist against Ainu is "bad"
>raughingnihon.moku-haga
Next you'll try to say that Koreans are people!
>>986399
Wow, dude, calm down. No one said that Koreans are people. It's just hard to believe that a Japanese history buff wouldn't at least feel some pity for the Ainu.
>>986426
>Be Ainu.
>Bitching beard and manly chest hair
>plentiful fishing
>Hot, tattooed wife.
>Awww yiss
>Some tiny yellow faggots paddle up to my village's beach
>Barking "chin-chong nip nip" bullshit.
>Maybe they wanna trade? Whats the worse that can happen?
***
>Be Native American.
>Hey, free blankets!
>>986435
I'm laughing but it's a sad laugh.
>>985802
Aren't those just militarized and exaggerated versions of the court hats?
>>985330
>The thought that he died for that flag is tragic.
I think it's wonderful. I wish I had something I had such a belief in that I could lay down my life in service of it.
>>985905
>BTFO
wew lad even Ukita Hideie recorded the loss of 5,820 men from the Battle of Byeojegwan/Siege of Haengju.
Only Tachibana Muneshige/Takahashi Munemasu force of 3,200 participated in the Battle of Byeojegwan yet they still lost 2,068 men to a Sino Korean scouting force.
The scouting force of 3,000 under Zha Dashou was later reinforced by Li Rusong's retinue of 1,000 managed to conduct a fighting retreat until the arrival of Yang Yuan. Ming forces inflicted casualties amongst the combined forces of the Tachibana Muneshige,Kobayakawa Takakage/Hidekane,Tsukushi Hirokado,Kuroda Nagamasa etc(40,000+).
Meanwhile Edo period sources claim that the Ming had 20,000 soldiers and lost 6,000 men when this wasn't the case.
>>986534
Well shit probably would have gone way better if Japanese navy wasn't utter dog shit and had properly supplied them.
>>986534
...and that's the only piece of Korea they can realistically hold on at the end of the war.
Also let us remember Hideyoshi's plan.
>INVADE
>CHINA
>GUYS
>>986597
not really.
hideyoshi's plan was to distract the restless daimyo's having too much weapon and army and to stop them from scheming against him after his unfication of japan. unlike nobunaga hideyoshi was more of a pragmatic man
>>986600
Hideyoshi legitimately thought he could conquer Ming China. Why else would he plan to retire in Ningbo,move the Japanese Emperor to Beijing and enfeoff his vassals with Chinese prefectures?
>>986534
Man the more I read about Japan the more pathetic they seem. Did they ever accomplish ANYTHING
[spoiler]don't say anime or video games[/spoiler]
>>986613
They kicked the living shit out of Russia so hard that Teddy Roosevelt had to go over there and stop them, that one time.
>>986600
>hideyoshi's plan was to distract the restless daimyo's having too much weapon and army and to stop them from scheming against him after his unfication of japan. unlike nobunaga hideyoshi was more of a pragmatic man
Yeah, that's hypothesis by modern historians trying to make sense of such a bold move.
Hideyoshi is subject to shitloads Hypotheses like:
>Did he plan out Nobunaga's death?
>Was he really in cahoots with Mitsuhide only to drop the nigga out in some deal?
And so on.
But what can be really sure is he did send off a lot of guys to fight foreigners on the pretext of invasion & conquest. He spent 1580's and 90's threatening everyone from the Philippine's Spanish rulers to Korea.
Hideyoshi was pragmatic, sure. He was also fucking ambitious. We're talking peasant turned lord turned de-facto Shogun who reunified all of Japan.
>>986619
I dunno, beating up a fleet as bad as the Baltic Fleet is like kicking a kid in a wheel chair.
Which ethnic minority in japan got more cucked?
the ainu or the okinawans?
>>986645
Well, there is a place called Okinawa. Its a popular vacation spot.
There is no place with "Ainu" in the name anymore.
Also: >cucked
When will this meme commit Sudoku?
>>985164
What I wanted to point out is that, since their fighting style was mainly about long polearms and bows, it didn't leave a lot of room for shield development. They certainly used them much more before the 1100-1200's and it never stopped outside of mainland Japan, but overall, it was a rare thing, not unknown, but clearly quite uncommon. It didn't reach the popularity that they had in Europe or even in Africa for that matter, not that there is anything bad about not using shields, it just depends on context and your style of warfare. When your nobility and warrior aristocracy is all about bows and glaives, it's hard to get a good place for shields and the likes, while in Europe, since knights and men-at-arms used them, they had a better social imagery, that certainly helped their development. When only the low-class use a weapon, it's not a surprise that it doesn't rise that high.
I'm very interested in this anti-pistol steel buckler though, do you have any photos of original examples ?
Anyway, some vids of bestest ryu-ha.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnLNExI_uK4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVSONNESfyE
>>986682
Let me find the documenting article, but here is one pic
>>986645
The Ryukyu people. The fact that you call em Okinawans is proof of their cuckholdness. At least the ainu people got some identety left.
>>986692
That's nice, it kinda looked like a handheld pauldron (in this image at least). Do you have the date of said picture, you said late Edo before ? I'm not that good at dating japanese imagery unfortunately...
>>983894
>>986692
>>986736
Nevermind, it's Utagawa Kuniyoshi and I should have noticed this one at least...
More interesting and daring gun stuff.
>>986714
Ryukyu was Nippon light in the first place, so it's obvious that the cultural difference isn't that big.
>>986741
Is it such a good idea to aim between your horse's ears...
>>986692
>>986736
Sorry it took so long, had to boot up the computer. Im usually on phone.
The pic in >>986692 is from "Budōgeijutsu hiden zue shohen" (武道芸術秘伝図會 初編), by Masatomi Ōmori and Utagawa Kuniyoshi, 1855, the title roughly means "martial arts secret view".
An excellent modern book on the subject is "Samurai of Japan: A Chronology From their origin in the Heian era to the modern era" by Dorothy J Perkins.
Pic is a late 18thC 鉄の盾 (Tetsu no tate- iron shield) from the Japanese national museum of art.
>>986743
Deaf horses were used by European dragoons and such, so why not the japs?
>>986755
While not specifically Japanese like the tetsu no tate, the Okinawans also made use of iron, wood, cane and turtleshell shields, both with swords and short hand-spears.
>>986760
I only got all this info, because the Japanese ALC team is tired of getting wrecked by European fighters. All the best jap fighters use Euro equipment, and that obviously is a little shameful if they are going to present a national team.
>>986765
>>986755
>Deaf horses were used by European dragoons and such, so why not the japs?
Never heard of anything like this, don't know if it's genius or horrible though.
>>986771
Dude, traditionally, gun carriage horses pulling cannon and such were deaf.
Horses can be deaf, just like people. Sometimes its congenital, or illness related. No sense putting it to waste.
>>986774
I realize horse and animal can be deaf, that's not a surprise really, it's not surprising too that they used deaf animals for all sorts of gun duty, hell it might even be more "ethical" than trying to rise horses specifically for the job.
I just never heard of it, that's all... never really looked into it either so.
What is this "ALC team" ?
>>986780
Sorry, ACL. Armoured Combat League. The new overall term for HMB (historic medieval battle)/Bohurt/ Battle of the Nations style tournament.
>>986778
You're welcome!
Any anon got any images/ wood prints of Foriegners in Japan?
>>986845
just a few, then i need some sleep
>>986848
>>986850
>>986853
and just to shake it up, a Euro depiction of a Japanese man in 1615, when he was a guest of the pope.
Now I have a request: I am in search of all the Pre 19th century Japanese art of European rapiers I can get, with a bonus to obviously japanese people holding a rapier.
I have a question on something that has been bothering me for quite some time.
Why couldn't Japanese artists into perspective? Wasn't there any urge to represent the world in a more realistic manner? I know a lot of Western cultures also developed these ideas fairly late (hell, even >muh Greeks painted kiddy tier shit on their vases) but it just seems hard to grasp that people keep holding on to the same art style for hundreds of years without someone shaking it up.
I could be horribly wrong of course, maybe there are other Japanese art styles that I don't know about but I'm ready to learn familia
>>986887
>>986887
It was so long ago i studied art stuff but it was partly the increase in money spent in patronage of artists in Renaissance europe that enabled artists to refine and perfect their art. Effort and perspective took time to learn, stuff like Camera Obscura was a tool to help with that.
Getting good painting materials required extensive trade, like the azure from afghanistan and the like.
Contrast that with insular japan, always a war lurking, where art is more of a hobby and a tradition. The free, money-driven market never surfaced there, and so japanese artists always moved inside the box of "traditional japanese art"
>>986887
>>986909
basically art evolution is a long process that always depends on the culture it is derived from. When europe became more free of expression and personal opinions art definitely reflected that.
Japan would have strange and interesting paintings as well that broke the mold in their own way, but they were not as interested in change as the euros were
>>985791
What's the story behind this one?
>>986954
Battle of Ueno during the Boshin War. It's inside a Tokugawa family temple.
>>986672
Is this armor manufactured in japan? Or is it bought from foreign traders?
I really dig those armours with morions and other western parts thrown in.
>>986780
Even fully or partially blind horses were put into service in Europe. Talk about equal opportunity.
>>986954
I'd date it around the 1500's, judging by the guns being used by the soldiers right outside the building. That's all I can say though.
>>986850
>yfw the Dutch were asked to kiss each other at the Japanese court for amusement.
>>986980
Date again, it's a second half 1800's picture. They kept using matchlock musket for a looong time.
>>986980
>Government troops in Western Uniform.
>>983894
I thought Korea was the hermit kingdom of the block, then again even China had a little stint of isolationism.
>>986982
>9gag
REEE FUCKING REEEE FUCK OFF NORMIE REEEEEEEEEEE
>>987039
cba to remove the watermark
But I got it from tumblr :^)
>>986613
You have to realize japan is this resource barren place, and they managed to punch well above their weight despite being on an island with poor quality iron, little arable land, and shit terrain.
>>986672
>at least 7 bullet dents on breastplate
Brutal.
>>986978
They imported a lot of mass produced armor from Italy (remember: Japan doesn't have large iron deposits)
>>983894
I started playing Shogun 2 as the Oda clan, It got me interested in knowing more about them.
What are some good books on them?
>>987302
they used all the paint on the statues
>>987302
Because in ancient Greek, 3D>2D.
>>987233
>remember: Japan doesn't have large iron deposits
Neither does Italy, since roman times. How come they couldn't import from the rest of Asia like Italy did with Germany?
Japan was always shit tier country in east Asia region culturally and economically. Then why it could achieve modernization almost all by itself? Especially after hundreds of years of isolation policy.
>>987302
>why DID the Greeks have such shitty paintings when they made near perfectly realistic statues
Same reason why most cultures other than the west have great statues but shit painting: it's a completely different art form with a completely different skillset required that needs to be developed in a totally different way and does not overlap.
Europe focused greatly on painting as an art form, but basically noone else did.
>>987466
>Japan was always shit tier country in east Asia region culturally and economically.
Were they? I don't see how they were any worse off than any one other than China.
>>987466
That's retarded.
They were the most successful east Asian country outside of China for almost their entire existence.
You have to remember that China IS most of East Asia.
They also Westernized the fastest because they essentially adopted Western ideals overnight. Their top-down tightly hierarchical society made it possible for the elites to institute a mass cultural and political change in a few decades as opposed hundreds of years like in China and Korea.
Pic related happened what, 50 years after their isolation was broken? It's fucking incredible how fast they modernized simply by pure willpower.
>>987469
They're a pretty small island, 3/4 of which is uninhabitable mountains. Also earthquakes.
Britain and Ireland are both far more liveable.
>>987496
Its about the size of California, and before modern techniques it was considered to have an abundance of precious metals.
>>987490
Then what made them change their mindset that quickly? They had been isolated and practically known nothing of outside world except China. How a country can change entirely just overnight?
>>987535
They knew what has happening in China and other parts of the world. There was actually quite a bit of resistance to modernization, even violence but eventually the people in charge were convinced it was necessary
>>987535
It's incredibly complicated and would take way more space than a single post to cover entirely, but the tl;dr version is that the Japanese ruling class was very aware of the outside world and saw what happened in China when they tried to resist the European powers.
When Perry showed up in Yokohama harbor the cat came out of the bag and the peasantry and middle class (even the lesser upper class to some extent) were now aware of how deeply and absolutely fucked Japan was if they fought the Western powers.
A solid half of the elites basically said, "well if you can't beat em, join em."
The Shogun began letting foreigners in willy nilly and the army slowly began to modernize.
The problem with this is that the other half of the elites (the successors to the clans that got btfo in the Sengoku, if you're curious) saw Western tech and wanted to adopt it, but they also wanted to expel the foreigners from Japan.
The Emperor himself issued the order to expel the foreigners (getting directly involved in politics is a huge no-no for the Emperor btw) and the Shogun was forced to raise his forces.
The pro-Imperial faction and the pro-Shogun faction have themselves a war which generally sees the pro-Imperial faction advance their tech at much faster rate (primarily because Satsuma and Choshu, the lynchpins of the movement, also have the most contact with foreigners) the pro-Imperialists win this conflict and unite Japan under "revived" Imperial rule.
They then spend the next couple decades introducing limited democracy and westernizing rapidly basically in order to stand up to Western powers. The samurai are basically ban hammered, and Emperor worship and "bushido" are reintroduced to create a strong, unified, tech literate, nationalistic Japanese state.
Because of how autocratic Japanese society is (it's still partially like this even today), the lower classes basically just rolled with it.
Japan also had more contact with the west due to it's many ports.
>>987584
So their fascination to western tech overcome their xenophobia. How cute.
>>987618
I wouldn't call it xenophobia really.
Most Japanese liked the West and Western ideals once they became more familier with them, they just had a very strong sense of "Japan for the Japanese, gaijin out reeeeeee..."
Or to put it another way, the liked the West and their tech, but wanted them to stay in their own country and not try to colonize or control Japan. During the Meiji revolution western clothes, art, and architecture, became fucking HUGE among the elite class, and the Japanese were totally okay with visiting other countries or allowing curious foreigners to visit Japan, but they mostly did not want foreigners to have any say in their politics or economy. They didn't want to be kept like a dog on a leash like China, technically sovereign but not actually in control.
But they were not really "xenophobic" in the traditional sense against foreigners. Well, not the upper-classes anyways. The lower classes were a totally different story but we won't get into that here.
>>986742
You couldn't be more wrong, stupid. Ryukyu was thoroughly sinicized and had regular contact with China throughout its history, unlike Japan.
>>987490
>They were the most successful east Asian country outside of China for almost their entire existence.
I like Japan and all, but your statement is absolutely laughable because you're ignoring all the steppe Asians that rivaled and even BTFO China from time to time. Even the Tibetans were big shots back in the day. You literally know nothing about Asian history.
>>987584
Don't forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangaku
And an incredible interesting read: http://voxeu.org/article/japan-and-great-divergence-725-1874
>>985206
Looks a bit like monoke, is this the period they draw inspiration from? With all teh bright colored tunics and the like.
>>988227
Yep.
The Emishi (Ashitaka's people) were decedents of the Yayoi people (the indigenous people), and are heavily related to the Ainu and Ryukyuans
Much of the imagery and fable in Princess Mononoke is related to Emishi spiritual beliefs and oral tradition. Basically all the animal gods and the kodama and such were originally Emishi beliefs that evolved into early Shinto. The Great Forest Spirit is fully Shinto from my understanding though.
The whole movie is heavily inspired by Emishi tales and fables as well. Ashitaka is the last prince of the Emishi in the movie, and the historical time period the movie takes place in is roughly consistent with the end of the Emishi as a separate people.
>>987584
This is good, but I would quibble with the "reintroduced" aspect of Emperor Worship and 'bushido".
'Bushido' never really disappeared, like emperor worship, but both were basically invented as entirely new things after the Meiji restoration. Emperor Worship was introduced with an eye towards Germany and Britain, more than their own past.
>>988016
Steppe Asians never managed the civilization nor sophistication of Chinese culture.
And if you're referring to Tibet, those fuckers collapsed their own empire and Lamas took over, balkanizing the country into warring monasteries.
>>988275
Actually, now that I thought about it, at least Jurchens did when they became a settled people.
Mongols and Eastern Turkics simply continued being mounted oogaboogas.
>>988285
Weren't they a settled society to begin with?
>>988291
When they founded the Jin dynasty at the expense of Song in the late 1100's, yeah. But they were Nomads.
>>988275
>warring monasteries.
Damn.
>>987963
Japan was highly sinicized as well. Plus, the Ryukyuan languages are very similar to Japanese and both countries had lots of cultural exchange before Japan annexed the islands. Ryukyuan culture is much closer to Japanese than Ainu culture is.
>>988269
very cool, thanks for sharing
>>986978
>>987233
"Namban do", literally "foreign harness" from the Dutch and Portuguese was INCREDIBLY in demand, and a sign of status and wealth, as the steel was far superior.
No Idea where you get Italian from.
>>987094
Not really. Japanese firearms were underpowered compared to European arms, due to the large bore and inferior, more expensive powder. Imported Chinese and European gun powder was a HUGE commodity, as was Korean and European steel.
Fun fact: many of the best Japanese swordsmiths used Korean steel exclusively.
>>988269
Literally one of only a handful of positive media from Japan about the indigenous peoples. And Mugen from Samurai Champloo.
>>988811
>>988815
>>988827
Again, technological vacuum. They worked fine against local armours, but just were not up to snuff with the rest of the world.
Poor iron makes poor steel. Poor steel makes inferior barrels. Inferior barrels cannot take as much stress or pressure.
I could also go on to how they have laws even today about rapiers, and how the locals were mounting rapier blades on traditional handles.... Rapiers are REALLY damn good at killing unarmoured duelists, and the samurai were freaking wiping each other out.
>>988827
Teppo fire very large caliber balls, almost qrbequis size, but use less powder than they should.
The result is that Teppo rounds move slower than normal musket balls and hit with less force.
Basically, size of the shot slows it down and makes it hit at a much slower velocity, thus impacting with less force on the target. It's why modern firearms fire an extremely small peice of metal at incredibly high velocity, we now know that small, high velocity rounds are much harder to stop than slow moving, larger rounds.
Teppo would still wreck someone not wearing armor, and they could even severely damage the kind of lamellar armor worn by the Samurai, but steel plate would stop it dead. IIRC, most Japanese gun usage was aimed toward terrifying the enemy and not actually causing much damage. The idea was to produce a lot of fire and smoke that would scare a charging enemy into routing, when you would send your own men in.
During the Tokugawa Shogunate there wasn't really any chance for firearms to develop though so the Japanese didn't get pass the "MAKES FIRE, GO BOOM" stage of firearm design until well into the Boshin war.
I got to fire a reproduction Teppo once, it was pretty fascinating. The ammunition they use is fucking massive, like a .68 - .70 caliber hunk of iron.
>>988876
Again where is the academic sources to back up this assertion?
Ive never heard of locals mounting rapier blades, though I have heard of them making very thin katana such as this account from the current head of Takamura ha shindo yoshin ryu:
“Maybe no recorded personal duel per se but the story about the Portuguese being banned from bringing swords (rapiers) ashore during the extensive trading exchanges in Kyushu is documented. The reason for the ban was linked to the fact that the Portuguese originally cut down so many samurai. The local samurai responded by having new swords made which were much lighter than the battle blades they normally carried. Later, another encounter occurred and a virtual small scale war ensued with many Portuguese dying in the skirmish. I know about this because a distant relative of my teacher actually took part in this bit of historical trivia. My teacher (Takamura Yukiyoshi) still owned
his relatives sword which was made specifically in response to the Portuguese sword tactics the samurai encountered in Kyushu. Like the famous Kogarasu Maru, this sword was double edged from about 5 inches to the kissaki but much lighter and faster. This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed so effectively against the samurai with rapiers. Once armed with swords of this style, the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was threatened….”
Nor have I read any contemporary European or Asian source calling Japanese metal work inferior. If you have one I would be happy to consider it.
>>988884
.70 cal isn't that big though, as far as musketry is concerned. My caliver is .75 caliber
Pic is me and my caliver (light musket)
The teppo I handled was HUGE. 1.0 cal. The barrel was thick as my dick too, and had no kick.
>>988902
I got some PDFs, but for some reason, /his/ STILL can't load PDF files like /tg/
Got a junk email?
>>988884
I also now realise that picture was not what I thought it was and his mis-labeled.
That man is a Choshu or Satsuma soldier during the early Boshin war, his musket is a percussion cap rifled musket, not a Teppo.
Pic related are guys actually carrying Teppo.
>>988907
Yeah shit, I was thinking too small for reason. I'm too tired to make intelligent comments.
>>988919
Here is a Namban Teppo: Imported barrel on a Jap stock and mechanism.
>>988919
>>988933
God damn it, I still fucked it up.
That picture is also Boshin war.
I'm retarded, I don't know why my images are all fucking mislabeled.
Have a staged picture of a peasent in a Warrior monk's outfit long after Japanese warrior monks stopped being a thing.
>>988884
During the Tokugawa Shogunate there wasn't really any chance for firearms to develop though so the Japanese didn't get pass the "MAKES FIRE, GO BOOM"
What? guns were the main killers on the battlefield during the late sengoku,
The Japanese even developed rifling technology equal if not superior to what they had in Europe at the time (my source is Dr. Conlan's book)
>>988933
Top two are Namban with Portuguese barrels.
Bottom one is domestic.
See the difference?
>>988947
derp
>>988916
Can't you link the title and name of the source ? If it's possible to get the pdf out of the internet somehow easily.
I'd be pretty interested on those rapier mountings too.
>>988950
I said nothing that is not supported by academic sources.
>>988947
Its also a difference of logistics. The Euros (especially the Germans) had amazing rifles, but the are much slower to load and fire.
A European force could have a whole unit of muskets at little cost, and make up for a lesser range and accuracy with mass fire.
Gun to the Japs, were much more costly, so the ideology of making a rifled barrel on something that is already expensive and hard to produce is not that far out of the ballpark.
>>988947
All on my comp, and im running on my phone right now.
>>988960
That "derp" was a mislink, as I forgot to attach the pic >>988950 to >>988948
>>988952
Yasutsugu-kanteisho modified smallsword tang 1794
Aside from a few written sources, its hard as hell to find this stuff.
>>988952
Fuck me, third time reposting this and I STILL forgot the link
http://www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/05/07/european-vs-japanese-swordsmen-historical-encounters-in-the-16th-19th-centuries/
>>988969
The Japanese were mass producing guns at that point, and had more than most European countries by the end the the period. It was hardly a rare weapon, and any local with a good forgetting tradtion could produce enough for an army. I have no idea how common the rifling was
>>985323
Yuuki Yuuna is an SoL mahou shoujo that essentially takes place in a modernized imperial japan (with the equivalent of State Shinto and everything) and has a lot of analogies to WWII if you look closely.
It also goes full suffering 2/3 of the way through
>>989014
Not in that link, but discussions on meeting of the two sword styles.
Again, I have a PDF later. Get me a trash email bro.
>>988992
> had more than most European countries
You best have documentation for this claim.
>>989014
Click the links on the page. Myarmoury has a great thread http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4831
>>989137
unfortunately I cannot find numbers independent of Perrins book, and a contemporary Europian account that puts the number at 300,000
>>988210
Good taste, but is GYBE related to your post? Or did you pic unrelated for the hell of it? Just curious.
>>985781
>>985787
>>985791
>>985793
etc
Man the Japanese really have a difference sence of aesthetic than the West. It's like they have this intense focus on details and you can see it from their paintings all the way to their armor. That is not to say that I'm a major weebfag and that the West doesn't have beautifully detailed artefacts. But it seems that whereas the Western aesthetic focuses more on the general impression and the overall composition, having all the details connect into this pattern of oneness, or be disregarded wholly in favor of the general image, the details in Japanese art are always independent of the rest of the image. They exist just for themselves and do not attempt to form some unified whole. Even with paintings involving large battle scenes with hundreds and thousands of warriors, the level of detail never seems to suffer. Of course this comes at a cost of authenticity and life likeness, but instead of realism it has this abstract appeal to it. It's cartoony and in being so it doesn't attempt to imitate realism as much as its main focus is having a specific message and interpretation.
Just have a look at pic related for an example. Both are obviously extraordinarily beautiful but still the most glaring difference is color. Whereas the Western armor is uniform in it's tones, details, patterns, the only uniformity you'll find in samurai armor is how every detail tries hard to differ, to defy any uniformity.
I do not know what it says about the differing mentalities of these separate cultures, but the Japanese art seems very pleasing to me. It is the reason I have an eye orgasm when I see a katana, the carefully knotted sageo and tsuga, the menuki protruding out of them, the pattern of the ray skin, exposing the handle itself via same-hada. I don't know it's just the exoticism of the aesthetic, the refreshing it offers for me, or if there's some other reason I'm so fond of it.
(Yes I used wikipedia to help me find the Japanese terms)
>>988811
>only a handful of positive media from Japan about the indigenous peoples
are they generally looked down upon or?
>>989377
As has been said multiple times earlier in the thread, culturally speaking, they are actually still persecuted.
Getting fired from your job or evicted from your apartment for rumors of Ainu ancestry is not unheard of, or illegal. More so, its not like the Ainu are a separate culture or even race anymore, but its kind of like Nazi Germany. Somone learning that your great-grandma was a Jew, even as a born and raised, aryan superman, can ruin you.
The Japanese as a whole, even today are super racist and xenophobic.
>>989411
Okay, so they're actually a separate ethnicity from japanese? Did not know that.
>>989439
>Did not know that.
Wow. Seriously?
>>989439
so.... did you not read the thread at all? We talked a lot about it.
>>989439
How old are you?
>>989345
Your optimism and respect for asthetic is infectious.
I like you
Tell me about the organization and system of the IJA /his/ (Post-WWI and entering WWII) How was it different from other military organizations at the time? What were the key elements in making rank in it? How was an officer treated and an enlistee treated? Was their several distinct factions in it?
>>989019
>>989137
>>989197
I was being a lazy bastard... Some other Kuniyoshi to compensate.
>>990988
>>990990
The classic and vicious hot-bowl attack and the appropriate defense.
>>990991
I posted those in a thread some time ago but why not again ?
>>990994
>>987266
Which era? The Japanese Experience by W.G. Beasley is pretty fucking good.
>>989411
>The Japanese as a whole, even today are super racist and xenophobic.
Why?..... You Know reason If you are not stupid or racist.
Now Japanese can read/understand like a your comment from Japanese translation
web site.I think every country have same situation.
>>991090
Stop pretending to be japanese.
>>991090
Hey, actual Japanese here. 2nd generation Japanese-American, who speaks fluently, and has lived in Japan for 3 years.
I was born and raised in the US. I have lived in Belgium. I have been to Canada, France and Germany.
I have had the privilege of being involved in all of these countries, learning their cultures and gaining experience. Do you know what I learned?
I learned that the Japanese are probably one of the most culturally institutionalized bigoted, racist fucks on the face of the goddamn earth. For a country that is two steps from a technological singularity, its cultural values are almost as backwards as third-world religious extremists.
And that is the hard fucking truth.
>>984664
>also anyone know something interesting in jap history? i would like to know
https://desustorage.org/his/thread/283168/#q283205
>>991302
>Hey, actual chon here
FTFY.
>>988269
>The Emishi (Ashitaka's people) were decedents of the Yayoi people (the indigenous people
Nope. Nope. Nope.
The Emishi and Yayoi are two different things.
And there is no such thing as "indigenous" when all Japanese, including Ainu and Ryukyuans immigrated to Japan from the Asian mainland.
The Yayoi are from Korea and they settled in southern Japan. The Emishi are from northern Japan.
>>988811
>And Mugen from Samurai Champloo.
The author thinks Ainu and Ryukyuans are the same thing though...which is not true.
Ainu are Caucasoid/Denovisian while Rykyuans are Mongoloid, many Ryukyuans are directly descended from Han Chinese settlers, and some of them might have Austronesian blood as well
>>991302
A native Japanese here. Born and raised in Japan. Lived in France several years. An active /a/non since around 2008.
I can understand your point. But for me, it's not a matter of racism or xenophobia, it's just that the Japanese are not used to foreigners, for us it is still an entirely unusual thing. In a word, we are an extremely immature people toward foreigners and don't know how to accept them into our society. For the Japanese, this world consists of people and foreigners. People are the Japanese. Foreigners are foreigners and not considered normal people. We like foreigners a lot. But we just can't think of living together with foreigners. We are mentally still staying in the state of people from Edo era.
>>989338
I had no other picture to post and thought it was a rather interesting poem.
>>992101
>strange white men on ships each loaded with more cannons than an entire kingdom start sailing around your islands and prevent you from heavily taxing merchants like you used to
>lure their leader out of his ship and turn on him
>surely that will solve the problem
>>992080
I think this attitude is extremely healthy and important for a culture and its people to thrive. I'm envious.
>>992195
Well, your wrong.
>>992332
So go prep your mother's bull, faggot.
>>984534
>How was it that only Japan was able to create Bushido and the concept of honor and respect in warfare when nothing like it exists anywhere else in Asia?
u wot 8t?
>>984614
>Wearing shoes indoors
Sasuga gaijin
>>992332
Japan survived for centuries as a monocultural society and will survive for centuries onwards (unless there is a zombie apocalypse or whatever).
Multiculturalism is just a meme created by immigrants.
>>991302
Found the Korean/Chinese
>>992710
multiculturalism is not the same as accepting immigrants, so get that false dichitomy out of your head.
No one is claiming a society cannot survive in isolation. But is it the best choice economically? or in terms of material progress? The only advantage I see is a lower crime rate, and perhaps greater social cohesion.
>>984614
is this supposed to show the stupidity of the gaijin who clumsily sets his home on fire or is it xenophobic propaganda showing how the gaijin is destroying japanese texts?
>>992090
Ah, alright.
I guess they're technically related to Japan anyhow.
>>992710
>Multiculturalism is just a meme created by immigrants.
Or, you know, by people who created large empires that survived as modern day states.
