What went wrong?
we should have listened to him
he did literally nothing wrong.
Also he spins in his grave each time someone takes the Atlantis allegory literally
>we should have listened to him
This.
Plato narrated the history of Western society -- from the middle ages (monarchy, aristocracy) to the modern era (democracy, tyranny), passing through all successive phases: timocracy (absolute monarchy) and oligarchy (liberalism) -- before it happened, in book VIII of the Republic. This remarkable foresight proves the soundness of his psychology and political theory.
Plato > Plebs.
WTF did mod-shills delete the democracy thread??
Anyway continuing...
Lenin, without ever having read Plato (that I know of), agrees with him when he says that democracy (that is the rule of the pleasure-seeking, low IQ mass-men) is a necessary prerequisite for the triumph of socialism (that is bolshevik tyranny).
Popper happened.
>>984110
This.
Reminder that Plato is so fucking brilliant that he even anticipated Nietzsche. Nietzsche comes pre-refuted by Plato.
>>984352
go further please
>>984360
The core of Nietzsche's argument is basically what Thrasymachus uses against Socrates in Book 1 of the Republic. "Justice is the will of the stronger" is Nietzsche boiled down to his essence.
Not only does Socrates refute him right there in Book 1, but then Glaucon and Adiemantus come in and actually present a stronger, more compelling version of Thrasymachus' argument, which Socrates then proceeds to more carefully refute over the entire rest of the work.
>>984372
Excellent.
I would only add this. In the Twilight of the Idols, there is a chapter entitled the Problem of Socrates, where Nietzsche criticizes Socrates (duh).
But Nietzsche's criticism is remarkably similiar (no, nearly identical with) Callicles' criticism of the same Socrates in Plato's dialogue Gorgias! Not only the arguments but the Nietzsche's mannerisms, the disdain for Socrates, it's all there. It's like someone wrote a fanfic where Nietzsche and Socrates met and had a philosophical showdown, except someone actually wrote it and he is none other than Aristocles "Plato", son of Ariston.
>>984436
Cont.
What is interesting in the showdown between Callicles and Socrates is that there is no clear winner. Unlike some of Socrates' more inferior opponents in Plato's dialogues, Callicles does not concede one inch to Socrates. Quite the aristocrat, he refuses to "argue" with Socrates (a lowly scupltor and dweller of the marketplace), rather he patronizes and mocks him, eventually living him talking to himself (which leads me to believe that Callicles was a real character and this actually happened, because it is too embarassing). But that's exactly what Nietzsche says in the Twilight, that the Athenian (and every) aristocracy was too sure of itself to "argue" and distrusted Socrates for his "arguments".
Gorgias is an amazing dialogue that both Nietzscheans and Platonists can enjoy. (I once dreamed about trying to reconcile those two, Plato and Nietzsche, but then I fell for the STEM meme.)
>>984372
"Might makes right" is the cartoon spoof of Nietzsche. Morality is relative to Nietzsche. He wrote a specific chapter on Justice where he says it's aim is just to make the victim feel satisfied, it's not a logical conclusion but an emotional one (as Hume has shown us something like justice must be subjective, because of is ought).
Nietzche found the Sophists to more credible in their understanding of justice than Plato's pie-in-the-sky idea of forms.
For Nietzsche strength or power is not a means of ethics, it is a metaphysical reality, the guiding force for ALL decisions, and the determinant in the final outcome.
>>984546
Calling Plato's idea of justice "pie-in-the-sky idea of forms" is a cartoon spoof of Plato. The Theory of the Forms and the notion of Justice as something interior to the soul are are more examined and nuanced positions than Nietzsche makes them out to be.
>>984697
It seems both of y'all are cartoon spoofing the other's arguments.
Don't do that if you ever want to get anywhere in an intellectual discussion.
>>984110
>foresight
What makes you think he didn't learn it from history?
>>984352
But Plato didn't actually refute Nietzsche: if we check out how the world is actually organized, it's the mightiest who determine what laws are observed; this is the case throughout antiquity, and especially so presently. Though if the case is about who is 'right' in the 'ought' or prospective sense I'd side with Plato too.
>>984860
The fact that he was not a time traveler.
>>985006
Or was he?
