How wealthy precisely did one have to be to become an officer in the Napoleonic Era?
I know with Britain it was almost entirely wealth based, from the purchase of commissions, however can we translate or calculate how much these commissions would cost in today's money? I read somewhere that an estimated 1/20 officers in Wellington's armies was raised from the ranks - so 5% is indeed very small.
I know France was rather the same, but decently more likely to have men rank up through their wit and merit.
What of Austria? Prussia? Other nations at the time?
>>983295
>How wealthy precisely did one have to be to become an officer in the Napoleonic Era?
As far as the British Army's concerned not that wealthy, anyone middle-class could get commissioned as a subaltern.
>an estimated 1/20 officers in Wellington's armies was raised from the ranks - so 5% is indeed very small
It's not that much higher than that today. raising officers from the ranks is a rare practice in the vast majority of armies around the world.
>>983311
Really? Why in movies and Sharpe series and whatnot are all the officers super rich douchebags?
Also I know, but today's military schools don't have tuition, and the class-based prestige is not there.
>>983295
In France it was mostly based on merit
Shittons of their greatest generals in that era came from lower class (Murat was a son of inkeeper, Lannes a son of farmer and Ney a son of barrel-cooper)
In Britain, Austria, Prussia, Russia...etc, it was based on wealth and nobility, for they were backward feudal monarchies
>>983295
Middle class ish wealth IIRC.
>>983295
It was expensive but not prohibitively so to become an ensign or lieutenant. The biggest problem was expenses. An officer's yearly pay only covered a fraction of their mess duties, let alone things like uniforms, which the officer paid for himself.
Not participating in social activities (ie. Spending massive amounts on port and scotch) could have huge effects on one's career. Not to mention the cost of promotion (you would sell your rank and buy a new one basically).
In theory it was possible to have a career come from meagre origins, but it was difficult especially in peace time. One's commanding officer was likely an absentee lord of some shit hole who preferred smart and useless officers to effective and experienced ones. The flasman papers is an enjoyable way to learn about this.
Mind you, this is for the Army. The navy, artillery, and engineers were different because they were technical and you couldn't have fuck wits in charge of the powder store.
>>983373
I believe the commissions started at 400 pounds, that's multiple year wages for them. Kinda like buying a car, you typically have to save up a little. That said some considered being officer as a stepping stone for further careers, they might not even end with a net positive at the end of their term but with a monetary loss.
>>983295
>How wealthy precisely did one have to be to become an officer in the Napoleonic Era?
Pic related for british army.
It was more connections than money based for the austrians and the russians.
I'm not sure how it worked for french and prussians.
>>983406
I feel like Prussia might've been even more classist than GB, especially considering they were renowned for how strict and draconian they could be, even for their day.
How much would say 450 quid be in 1805?
>>983389
>The navy, artillery, and engineers were different
Relatively.
The navy promoted good people, but influence could make a moron into an admiral, given enough service time.
The engineers and artillery were basically seniority centered: promotion based on date of commission within the regiment without consideration of competence beyond having graduated from the academy.
>>983321
>Why in movies and Sharpe series and whatnot are all the officers super rich douchebags?
Because Sharpe isn't real life
Also, the Royal Navy was probably the most meritocratic of any military institution in the period.
>>983432
Well obviously not, but it is historical fiction of a period which is very well documented.
>>983432
The Duellists is a great example of officer periodical douche attitude as well, just like Sharpe.
>>983426
Estimates are pretty difficult and opinions vary, but consider something between 10-30k pounds.
>>983432
>Also, the Royal Navy was probably the most meritocratic of any military institution in the period.
I strongly doubt it was even close to the french army or navy.
>>983442
It reminds me of some hilarous shit I found about this duel obsession upon reading about the dude who inspired Javert on wikipedia
Here it is
>On 10 March 1791, he enlisted in the Bourbon Regiment, where his reputation as an expert fencer was confirmed. According to Vidocq, within six months, he challenged fifteen people to a duel and killed two. Despite not being a model soldier and causing difficulties, he spent only a total of fourteen days in jail. During those two weeks, Vidocq helped a fellow inmate successfully escape.
>When France declared war against Austria on 20 April 1792, Vidocq participated in the battles of the First Coalition, including the Battle of Valmy in September 1792.
>On 1 November 1792, he was promoted to corporal of grenadiers, but during his promotion ceremony, he challenged a fellow non-commissioned officer to a duel. This sergeant major refused the duel, so Vidocq hit him. Striking a superior officer could have led to a death sentence, so he deserted and enlisted in the 11th Chasseurs, concealing his history. On 6 November 1792, he fought under General Dumouriez in the Battle of Jemappes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Fran%C3%A7ois_Vidocq#Childhood_and_youth_.281775.E2.80.931795.29
It sounds like a fucking comedy
The dude was promoted officer but got butthurt because someone refused his duel, so he chimped out which forced him to desert and re-enlist in another unit as a simple private
>>983447
My parents paid about 3 thousand pounds for my private school tuition for like 10 years, she bought me a violin and made me learn it for 10 years with lessons, sports, and now my parents pay my university tuition but I contribute about half of it from my work at a historic tourist destination.
I have a big family history of military involvement of WW1 and 2 - my great grandad was a cavalier in WW1. Would I have been an officer if I had gone into the military 200+ years back?
>>983460
Kek.
Really interesting life story though!
>>983295
>implying wealthy automatically means stupid
>implying wealthy means wouldn't take a serious interest in being a good officer
Stay salty, poor people.
>>983451
>In what other navy could a freed slave work his way up the ranks within 15 years and attain command of a ship of the line?
>In what other navy could a 6th son from a minor country family go from ensign to admiral?
>In what navy could these two men fight at Trafalgar alongside each other and be best bros?
British navy, bitch.
>Nelson's French counterparts were all aristocrats, Brueys (despite being a revolutionary) was Southern French nobility for example.
>>983460
>In April 1793, Vidocq was identified as a deserter. He followed a general, who was fleeing after a failed martial coup, into the enemy camp. After a few weeks, Vidocq returned to the French camp
>He was eighteen years old when he returned to Arras. He soon gained a reputation as a womanizer. Since his seductions often ended in duels, he was imprisoned in Baudets from 9 January 1794 to 21 January 1795
>On 8 August 1794, when he was barely nineteen, Vidocq married Anne Marie Louise Chevalier, who was five days his senior, after she had feigned pregnancy. The marriage was not happy from the start, and when Vidocq learned that his wife had cheated on him with the adjutant, Pierre Laurent Vallain, he left again for the army.
>Vidocq did not stay long in the army. In autumn 1794, he spent most of his time in Brussels, which was then a hideout for crooks of all kinds. There, he supported himself by small frauds. One day, he was apprehended by the police, and as a deserter, he had no valid papers. When asked for his identity, he described himself as Monsieur Rousseau from Lille and escaped while the police tried to confirm his statement.
>In 1795, he joined the armée roulante ("flying army"). This army consisted of "officers" who in reality had neither commissions nor regiments. They were raiders, forging routes, ranks and uniforms but staying away from the battlefields. Vidocq began as a lieutenant of chasseurs but soon promoted himself to a hussar captain. In this role, he met a rich widow in Brussels[N 4] who became enamored of him.
>In March 1795, Vidocq moved to Paris, where he squandered all his money on loose women. He went back north and joined a group of Bohemian gypsies, which he later left for a woman he had fallen in love with, Francine Longuet. When Francine cheated on him with a soldier, he beat both of them. The soldier sued him, and in September 1795, Vidocq was sentenced to three months in the prison Tour Saint-Pierre in Lille.
Haha wtf
>>983491
>In what other navy could a freed slave work his way up the ranks within 15 years and attain command of a ship of the line?
>In what other navy could a 6th son from a minor country family go from ensign to admiral?
>In what navy could these two men fight at Trafalgar alongside each other and be best bros?
This shit happened in the french army on the regular, half the marshals of France were poorfags. I dunno about pleb admirals in the french navy (the whole wars lasted barely enough for men to go through the whole hierarchy after all), but captains routinely came from the hawsehole.
>>983488
OP here. I'm not saying that at all - it just seems to be stereotype from period-based literature, and even from things I've read over from the period before, there are a lot of douchy officers.
>>983482
>Would I have been an officer if I had gone into the military 200+ years back?
Maybe. You could have made the India service or the engineers/artillery or the navy (given a patron), but I think you'd have money issues in the army. The pay there was almost symbolic, more like a reimbursement than something you were expected to live on, even if you wanted to live on the cheap your fellow officers would still expect you to contribute to food and alcohol expenses, plus you needed to be respectably and neatly clothed in a way fit for aristocratic ballrooms, you were also expected to have a horse.
>>983569
Well this is a good answer for perspective, so thanks a ton!
I read that some draw for officers for the War of 1812 was that serving on the Canadian frontiers offered quick and high promotion - problematically though, all of the prestige of fighting was to be had back in Europe against Napoleon.
>>983569
What of cavalry regulars?
There was definitely lost of prestige differences there, even from heavy cavalry and hussar to dragoon, and so on. I was told once by a historian friend of mine that in Britain for sure, they had the ability and preference to choose cavalrymen from the middle classes, whereas the lower ranks were of course very generally filled with lower class men - the same Wellington called the "scum of the earth."
So how much do you think it would cost one and how much would say, a British dragoon make in 1810?
>>983508
Its a real life Flashman
>>983321
Historical fiction m8. Emphasis on the fiction. IIRC the Engineers, artillery and Royal Navy were all utilized meritorious exam based promotion systems. Obviously the well to do were better educated then the poor on averag. so the rich would still be over represented even in merit based promotions.
You talked about mess fees. What are they exactly? Like, money you have spend with the other guys to social functions and wild parties?
>>986544
They had to pay for their food and drink
>>986588
Plus their very expensive uniforms, weapons, etc. Obviously those had not much to do with social life, but they were incredibly costly to my knowledge.
>>983295
Why was that the English, which had developed an efficient war machine in the New Model Army which worked off of merit, completely abandon that principle afterwards?
I kind of understand not wanting to fully bring it back, seeing as how it eventually threw a coup, but it became clear that merit smashed the older concepts of buying into a rank.
Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but it seemed like the New Model Army was well beyond its time, and somehow forgotten.
>>991204
>Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about
