Discuss
Who contributed most to defeating Napoleon?
Who benefited most?
Who was the greatest general?
Well Nelson fucked their entire Navy.
>>981892
OP I think you are still giving easy fodder for /int/ shitposting in how you've worded the OP. Topics around the Napoleonic Wars are particularly at risk of /int/-tier nationalistic and anti-nationalist oversimplification and fabrication of details around events.
>>981892
>Who contributed most to defeating Napoleon?
The playing fields of Eton
There's a breathless hush in the Close to-night --
Ten to make and the match to win --
A bumping pitch and a blinding light,
An hour to play and the last man in.
And it's not for the sake of a ribboned coat,
Or the selfish hope of a season's fame,
But his Captain's hand on his shoulder smote --
'Play up! play up! and play the game!'
The sand of the desert is sodden red, --
Red with the wreck of a square that broke; --
The Gatling's jammed and the Colonel dead,
And the regiment blind with dust and smoke.
The river of death has brimmed his banks,
And England's far, and Honour a name,
But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks:
'Play up! play up! and play the game!'
This is the word that year by year,
While in her place the School is set,
Every one of her sons must hear,
And none that hears it dare forget.
This they all with a joyful mind
Bear through life like a torch in flame,
And falling fling to the host behind --
'Play up! play up! and play the game!'
>>982192
>The Gatling
wrong war m8
>Who contributed most to defeating Napoleon?Himself obliterating his own army in Russia.
>Who benefited most?
The royal families who got their shit back.
>Who was the greatest general?
Him.
Napoleon is always the greatest general
>The world vs. 1 man
How did be do it, /his/?
>>981892
>Who contributed most to defeating Napoleon?
The Russian winter
>Who benefited most?
Greed Shitstain
>Who was the greatest general?
Napoleon
Question;
>what if Napoleon made contact with tatars and other caucasian-siberian nomads and tribal groups?
On the morning of the battle of Waterloo Napoleon told his loyal lieutenants, “I tell you that Wellington is a bad general, that the English are bad troops and ce sera l’affaire d’un dejeuner”...in other words; ‘this, my friends, will be a picnic!’
But Wellington was the consummate general and there was no luck about his mastery of the French from Vittorio to Toulouse. Waterloo he held Napoleon off for 4 hrs where his squares destroyed the French Cavalry and his troops made the guard retreat which turned into a rout when Blucher arrived.
>>981892
>Who contributed most to defeating Napoleon?
The British by financing the coalition
>Who benefited most?
The whole of Europe
>Who was the greatest general?
Nelson prevented the invasion of the iles and French maritime superiority, so him. Napoleon didn't win battles with long term strategic significance.
>Inb4 "muh britcuck"
>>983133
but you literally are a britcuck
>>983133
i saw this documentary where some historians said it was because a key node in the french communication chain was a complete clusterfuck, messagers missing each other and letters and depeches getting sent out of order or context
>>983112
Napoleon was not Muslim.
>>983145
so?
>>983133
>>Who benefited most?
>The whole of Europe
Why? Napoleon could make EU great again and resurrect Roman Empire with Official France Language.
>>983142
Berthier died just before Waterloo, which means he wasn't in charge. He had been Napoleon's minister of war and took charge of pretty much everything logistics.
His replacement was shit and sent only one messenger to Grouchy, who got lost, literally losing the battle.
>>983151
Well-known infidel better than unknown infidel. Also Mountain nations already had rich nobles in their nations and certainly hated "French revolutionary democracy" because care about they own wealth.
>>983131
Wellington was a good general. but he wasn't a genius like Napoleon either.
His only achievement at waterloo was not to be overrun by the French while having roughly the same numbers.
>>983133
britcuck
>as Napoleon said of the conflict, "It was [the Spanish war] that overthrew me. All my disasters can be traced back to this fatal knot".[200]
>>983131
>and his troops made the guard retreat which turned into a rout when Blucher arrived.
I see you took your knowledge from the 1970 movie...
The guard was routed by a combined Prussian and British effort several hours after the Prussians arrived
>>981892
>Who contributed most to defeating Napoleon
Russian scorched earth retreat
>Who benefited the most
Either Prussia or Russia
>Who was the greatest general
Von Clausewitz was probably the most influential in the long run, but Napoopan was the greatest.
>>983217
>Maitland in turn shouted to his troops “Up Guards! Up!!" The two thousand British troops arose with their bayonet fixed Brown Bess 75 caliber muskets resting upon their shoulders. "MAKE READY!" Maitland shouted and his NCO's echoed his order to the men up and down the line. The British brought their muskets up to the vertical while bringing them to full cock. "PRESENT!" and their muskets were levelled horizontally, pointing at the oncoming French infantry now 40 yards away. "FIRE!" and two thousand British muskets roared as one, dropping over 300 French infantry in a single volley while nearly concealing the British position atop the ridge in a thick cloud of white gunpowder smoke smelling of rotten eggs. The French Guard troops were momentarily staggered by the shocking intensity of the British musket volley and the ones that followed, but they professionally closed ranks and continued marching inexorably towards the British ridge line positions. Maitland now shouted. "CHARGE YOUR BAYONETS!" and the Foot Guards loudly shouted a fearsome "HUZZAH!!" while levelling their bayonet fixed muskets at the Frenchmen. "At A QUICK MARCH!!” Maitland shouted and his two thousand troops stepped out briskly, marching shoulder to shoulder towards the French Guards whose eyes now for the first time reflected fear as their line began to waver.
>>983263
> The shocked French soldiers watching the attack from all around the battlefield agonizingly shouted the never before heard cry of "La Garde recule!" "The Guard is retreating!" The Duke of Wellington soon appeared atop the ridge, waving his hat victoriously over his head to signal a counterattack from all the Allied forces. British, German, Belgian and Dutch soldiers arose from their positions and attacked in an avenging body to turn the French Army retreat into a complete rout. Only three battalions of French Imperial Old Guard maintained their famed unit cohesiveness to safely escort Napoleon from the battlefield, although they paid the ultimate price for their actions; The Prussian cavalry entered the field to slash them to pieces.
>>983263
>marching shoulder to shoulder towards the French Guards whose eyes now for the first time reflected fear as their line began to waver.
sounds like a very objective and neutral report
>>983392
Here's the accurate non-movie based one
>Napoleon himself oversaw the initial deployment of the Middle and Old Guard.
Two batteries of Imperial Guard Horse Artillery accompanied them with sections of two guns between the squares. Each square was led by a general and Marshal Ney, mounted on his 5th horse of the day, led the advance.[150]
>Napoleon left Ney to conduct the assault, however Ney led the Middle Guard on an oblique towards the Allied centre right instead of attacking straight up the centre, Napoleon would send Ney's senior ADC Colonel Crabbé to order Ney to adjust. But Crabbé was unable to get there in time. Pégot's brigade broke into skirmish order and moved north and west of La Haye Sainte and provided fire support to Ney, once again unhorsed, and Friant's 1st/3rd Grenadiers. The Guards first received fire from some Brunswick battalions, but the return fire of the grenadiers forced them to retire. Next, Colin Halket's brigade traded fire but they were driven back in confusion into the 33rd and 69th regiments, Halket was shot in the face and seriously wounded and the whole brigade retreated in a mob. Other allied troops began to give way as well. A counter attack by the Nassauers and the remains of Kielmansegge's brigade from the allied second line was also thrown back and the Prince of Orange was seriously wounded. General Harlet brought up the 4th Grenadiers and the allied centre was now in serious danger of breaking. It was at this moment that the timely arrival of the Dutch General Chassé turned the tide in favour of the allies.[151]
>Chassé's relatively fresh Dutch division was sent against them, led by a battery of Dutch horse-artillery. The battery opened a destructive fire into the victorious 1st/3rd Grenadiers' flank.[152] This still did not stop the Guard's advance, so Chassé ordered his first brigade to charge the outnumbered French with the bayonet, who faltered and broke.[153][154]
tl;dr: Germans and Dutch did it
>>981892
1. Napoleon
2. all his cousins and brothers who became the new royal dynasty in the remaining European kingdoms
3. Suvorov
>Who contributed most to defeating Napoleon?
The Russians, obviously.
>Who benefited most?
The British, obviously.
>Who was the greatest general?
Napoleon, obviously.
>>983429
67% casualty rates in the Lowlands Walloon batallions cavalry, and kept fighting all day, pretty brutal
>>981892
>Who contributed most to defeating Napoleon?
Russian self-sacrifice
>Who benefited most?
Englel, the South American Nations, Russia, Prussia
>Who was the greatest general?
....
I still don't understand what started the NWs
>>983750
brits hate freedom
>>983754
>tfw USA didn't ally with France and remove fish n chips from the continent
>>983758
worst ally desu
>>983133
The eternal anglo strikes again
Why were cavalry grenadiers not a thing?
Ney charged over the better part of the day while the brit infantry held, out of artillery's reach, and never broke. Could've opened up a few gaps to exploit instead of just riding up close and getting shot.
>>983911
but they did charge at Waterloo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenadiers_%C3%A0_Cheval_de_la_Garde_Imp%C3%A9riale
>>983914
I mean like actual grenades, not just the units that kept their names for tradition's sake.
Nelson fucked the French navy, and attrition from 6 consecutive wars with an entire continent stalled the gears for a time.
>>983951
I don't know. Grenades fell out of trend because they were useless against lines, maybe it would have worked for cavalry.
OFFICIAL BEST GENERAL OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS RaNKING
1: Napoleon Bounaparte
....
....
2. Alexander Suvorov
3. Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington
...
4. [Young] Andre Massena
5. Jean Victor Marie Moreau
6. Ludwig Yorck
6. Lazare Hoche
7. Louis-Nicolas Davout
8. Archduke Charles
9. Peter zu Wittgenstein
10. Jean Lannes
11. Johann von Klenau
12. Laurent de Gouvion Saint-Cyr
13. Barclay de Tolly
14. Friedrich Wilhelm Bülow
15. Fabian Gottlieb von der Osten-Sacken
16. Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher
17. Eugene de Beauharnais
18. Pyotr Bagration
19. Antonio Ricardos
20. Jean-de-Dieu Soult
..
...
....
999.: Michail Kutusov
9999999999: Jacques MacDonald
99999999999999999999999: Every single allied commander in the First Coalition
>>985328
No based Lasalle?
>>985350
He was not really high enough to be considered as general (should at least command his own corps)
You can make another powerranking of best cavallery commanders though, with him, Murat, Kellermann, Nansouty or Grouchy.
>>981892
The answer to ask three is the eternal Anglo
>>985328
No Ney?
>>981892
The British
The British and south American countries
Nappy
>>985328
>3. Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington
How bout....nope?
Just because he got lucky in one important battle doesnt negate the fact it took him 7 years to take back Spain against a second-rate French army in what was basically a secondary theater for the French (while being the main one for him)
>>985411
Except Napoleon blamed the Spanish campaigns for his failures
>>985411
Wellington is extremely overrated by the english and mostly fought in a second rate theatre or would have lost without the prussians saving his ass.
That still doesnt change the fact that he is a very great general that fought in a number of large battles and never lost one of the important ones.
>>985382
Nope. He never did much on his own and practically fucked up every time Napoleon gave him his own command.
>>985438
That were just excuses.
Winng or losing in spain meant little; even if all his shitty armies there would have been wiped out.
Invading russia during winter or losing pretty much all of his available manpower in Leipzig on the other hand were his death blows
>>985328
Davout should be 2nd or 3rd. He never lost a single battle.
What book can I read to get a good overview of the Napoleonic Wars?
Preferably on Audible.
>>985654
I know that this is often claimed, but he clearly lost during the Battle of Krasnoi; even so bad that his Corps was practically destroyed and his marshal batton captured.
Still, he was one of the best. Its retarded how Napoleon ignored him at the end
>let the best marshal sit in hamburg watching the empire burn down around him in 1813/14
>keep him in Paris as minister in 1815
What were Napoleon's goals?
What would Europe look like if he had been successful?
Would Napoleon's Europe have avoided the two world wars?
>>985698
>What were Napoleon's goals?
Make France Great Again
>What would Europe look like if he had been successful?
Like it looked from 1805-1813
>Would Napoleon's Europe have avoided the two world wars?
No, these were a hundred years in the future, the Napoleonic Empire would have broken apart long before.
>invading russia during winter; what can possibly go wrong?
>>985713
The largest army europe had ever seen before the word wars....... destroyed in a mere three months.
>>985713
He actually invaded Russia during summer.
At first I was like
>>985753
...but then
The invasion of Russia
So, the Russians, but by accident I suppose.
Posting further maps:
Battle of Paris, the first time in modern french history that a foreign army entered Paris
Wagram, largest and most bloody battle of the Napoleonic Wars at that time
and that guy
>>985350
died there
Dresden; one of the largest and Napoleons last 'big' victory, but mostly forgotten today
Borodino
Prussia benefited the most.
Though they didn't get their way with the entirety of Saxony, they got the Rhineland; which while undeveloped at the time became one of the most important industrial regions of Europe.
>>985786
To be fair, he took most of the relevant parts of Russia, defeated their main armies and took their capital. The war should have been won at that point.
Even today, a lot of people claim that Operation Barbarossa would have succeeded if only the germans would have taken Moscow (and yes, I realize that moscow in 1941 was more important then in 1812, but still)
>>985807
To be fair, Alexander was literally mentally ill
He sacrified hundreds of thousands of his civilians lives with the scorched earth policy, and this only to avoid having to obey Napoleon on some economical issue which wasnt really decisive for Russia anyway (yeah, that's what the war was about. Nothing to do with world conquest or annexing Russia to the French Empire)
Apperently, his reaction can be explained by the fact he firmly believed that Napoleon was the Antichrist
>>985839
Its interesting that Alexander I was on the same time a huge fan of the french and treated them extremely well during the invasion of France in 1814 despite what they did to russia.
>>985845
>despite what they did to russia.
Well, to be fair they didnt do much
Most of the destruction in Russia during the French invasion was caused by the Russians themselves...
>>985328
>no Bagration in top 10
>hating on MacD
niggerfaggot list/10
Wellingtons results speak for themselves. He was a far better general than Napoleon, however the Napoleon fanboys can never come to terms with his crushing defeat at Waterloo and feel the need to denigrate Wellington and his achievements.
>>987031
Better general? he won one battle against an outnumbered Napoleon and his center was breaking when he got saved by Blucher
>>987031
>Eternal Anglo strikes again ..
Wellington sucked
>>985328
>Bagration that low
reee
Why did Napoleon give up? Didn't Davout have over 100,000 troops just waiting for him? They could have easily reinforced and crushed Wellington
>>987075
His prestige was hurt by Waterloo, and he was practically on deaths door health wise
>>987092
He also got captured
>>987066
Yes.
Napoleon fooled Wellington so well that he ended up fighting a battle on the very ground that Wellington had chosen, which suited Wellington's tactics, which Napoleon had totally underestimated.
He outmanoeuvred him so well that a major part of his army was away chasing shadows, while that same shadow was about to fall on his flank, just as his army was exhausted, doing exactly what Wellington wanted them to do - attack him piecemeal up a muddy hill!
Now THAT's what I call a great general!!
>>987104
Napoleon did make a very major blunder by doing that. But his past victories in '05 '07 and '09 vastly outweigh that
>>983159
Berthier was probably assassinated by either the Bourbons or Bonapartists for being too equivocating...it's some shady shit.
Just like when the admiral who lost at Trafalgar returned to France...he died under mysterious circumstances...I wonder who ordered that death?
>>983911
The French I think were the only ones to have a unit of cavalry grenadiers...I believe they were very elite and may have been a part of the Guard
>>985676
> Battle of Krasnoi
> 20,000–26,000 captured ~ (almost all stragglers)
What happened to these French prisoners captured by the Russians? Were they all ultimately killed?
>>987104
He did not fool Napoleon into fighting on the ground. Napoleon knew full well that he would be at a disadvantage, but he had to be on the offensive and attack Wellington before the Prussians arrived. the biggest part of Wellington's plan was holding out long enough to be assisted by Blucher. Other issues were at play that cause the French defeat such as Napoleon's health problems, the fact that Ney got most of the cavalry killed in a suicidal attack and therefore could not support the infantry push later in the battle and that Napoleon had to send 25,000 members of the Old Guard to hold off 50,000 Prussians at the forest, so they were heavily outnumbered. Despite all of this Wellington called it the closest run of his life.
>>987115
They worked as heavy cavalry, and like infantry grenadiers they only retained the name but did not use explosives
>>987117
Do u mean 19th century? Because 18th sounds quite excessive
>>987134
No, I mean 18th. It might have been a bit later like after the great Northern war or something but the point still stands. Grenadiers were ORIGINALLY conceived of as a grenade throwing unit back in the 1600s but they evolved to be an elite group of physically large soldiers, who retained the name "grenadier" but had nothing to do with grenades.
The grenades were largely ineffective compared to regular volleys of musket fire, but the grenadiers retained the association with grenades in their name and in some of their unit symbols and song lyrics and the like.
>>987031
How does taking 7 years to take back a small country like Spain on what is a secondary theater for the enemy compares to conquering Europe and holding it for a decade?
You're a cretin
>>987104
>He outmanoeuvred him so well that a major part of his army was away chasing shadows, while that same shadow was about to fall on his flank
Are you unoronically trying to attribute the Prussian's merit to Wellington?
>>987143
>as Napoleon said of the conflict, "It was [the Spanish war] that overthrew me. All my disasters can be traced back to this fatal knot".[200]
>>981892
Russia
Perfidious Albion, and le roi de la Prusse
Napoleon of course
>>987154
And?
How doesnt that make's Wellington pathetic deed any greater?
If a coward snipe a poinsoned arrow at a dude taking on 5 guys in an epic swordfight, and the poison eventually happen to be decisive in the dude's defeat, does that mean that the coward is a better fighter than the dude?
>>987177
I couldn't have put that better 10/10 post
As for Wellington being a better commander then Napoleon, get a fucking life, Eternal anglo fucker
>>987177
Wellingtons insistence on paying for supplies, not harassing the local people and respecting their religious beliefs paid a huge dividend. His supply lines were unmolested and he gained intelligence and occasional military aid from the guerillas. The Marshals of France were seemingly unable to grasp the concept that if you treated the local people well you would not need to guard your supply lines from insurgents, or need 20 men to send a message.
The war in Spain was Napoleons choice
If it hadnt been for the French invasion of a former ally, and putting his own favoured government in place, there would have been no war in Spain, no guerillas and Portugal would probably have fallen.
If theres a favourable Spanish ally then theres no problems with with French supply convoys, theres no need for thousands of men to be tied down defending rear areas from guerillas.
>>987031
Wellington also did a good job "liberating" those Spanish civilians in Badajoz during the Peninsular war.
>>987191
>not harassing the local people
>if you treated the local people well
Like at Bajadoz?
Lmao, it was worst atrocity committed on civilians in the entire Napoleonic Wars
>>987195
British soldiers showed much courage and valor and were prepared to die by the thousands to breech the walls of Badajoz. A victory deserved
The sacking of the town after was horrific. It was however part and parcel of Seige warfare if the garrison refused to surrender once the walls were breached. If the defenders forced the attackers to storm the fort/ city the survivors were usually berserk and pumped with adrenaline.
>>987231
kill yourself britcuck
>>987231
So you're justifying rape and murder by the thousands on a civilian populace because some French soldiers refused to give up the town
This better be bait
>>987251
How many of them were killed during the sack is impossible to say. Many would have died prior to this from the bombardments or illness
>>987121
Most of them were wounded, frostbitten, half starved guys taken in by an army (well cossacks mostly) that was also in very bad shape and in a destroyed country. So their survival chances were not very great, even if the russians treated them well.
Who survived either voluntarily kept in russia or was released in 1814 upon Napoleon abdiction.
>>987195
4k dead civilians sounds pretty tame.
>>987326
I've actually tried to find data and info about this, first hand accounts...I've come up with nothing.
I know the cossacks often killed the French they captured, but did regular Russian army soldiers? What about torture? I really would like to know more about French prisoners taken during the Russian campaign, and additionally- what about Russian prisoners?
There is no doubt the French would have captured Russian soldiers, but after leaving Moscow what would have been done with them?
There is not a ton of info on the internet about either of these subjects and I have been looking for a while.
>>987337
For you.
Badajoz had 11715 inhabitants in 1842.
>>987337
4k civilians assassinated directly by soldiers during a chimpout was something on an unprecedented scale in the Napoleonic Wars
Civilians sometimes died as collateral damages during bombings of cities, but they were very rarely massacred en mass by soldiers (especially by soldiers came to "liberate" them).
>>987231
>be 27,000 Brits against 4,742 French
>lose 4,800 men (aka more than there even were of defenders)
>capture 3,500 of the French alive
>take revenge for the losse on the Spanish civilians they came to liberate instead of the French soldiers who inflicted them
Wow such valor
Much courage
>>987406
What people don't realize is that the Russian-Turkish war that happened in the Balkans concurrently with one of the Coalition Wars led to whole villages being depopulated by the Russians and the Turks massacring Russian prisoners. Compared to the Napoleonic wars it looked straight fucking medieval.
>>987446
>>987406
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_(1806%E2%80%9312)
Charles Esdaile goes into detail about this in Napoleon's Wars. Basically the Russians thought they wouldn't be able to trust Turkish villagers behind them as their front progressed into Turkey so some general ( I don't think it was Kutuzov) decide to wipe them out. It set a bad tone for the war and it was extremely brutal. Wikipedia has a good map but not a lot on the conflict- this war is another subject that is sorely lacking on information on the internet- can'f find much else.
>>987359
>>987359
You probably have to read specific literature on the french invasion of russia for that.
But I remember having read that a lot kept living there, repopulating the countryside (the reason why there are so many german villages there) or as teacher or so (with french being the universal language of europe at that time).
A nd while that campaign definitely was extremely brutal and noted for their devastation and civilian losses, most of the Napoleonic Wars were pretty civil in that regard -with the notable exception of the Peninsular Campaign of course.
You have to remember that the age of nationalism was only starting, so you were not really supposed to hate the guy on the other frontline just because he was russian/french/italian/german/polish.
>>987626
In the Second Coalition War, which is technically not part of the Napoleonic Wars (which only count the Thrird to Seventh Coalition) but practically its one time period.
He absolutely destroyed the french armies in italy no matter what and whom they threw at him. Its a shame that russia left the war right when Napoleon came back from egypt.
>>983750
Continuations from the Wars of the First Coalition before Napoleon was in power.
>>987626
Dont listen to these morons, Suvorovs only tactic was a bayonet charge.
>>983750
British buttpain, mainly
France blown the shit out of all of Britain's allies in the French Revolutionary Wars, and since the Brits NEVER fight alone, they agreed for a peace once they felt too isolated
They never were able to deal with their failure though, so during the peace, they plotted in the dark to create another coalition against France, and once it was done, they declared war on France in 1803, thus starting the Napoleonic Wars that would last for the following 12 years
>>987816
t. frog
>>985411
>that one kid who always shitposts on wellington
Every single time.
The thing everyone forgets about Wellington and the army he had in Spain is that it was the literal dregs of Great Britain. The Royal Navy got all the attention, all the money, all the glory, Wellington had to fight for every penny he got, every new recruit sent over.
And what he got were, as he put it after Vitoria, "the scum of the earth". England's army was all volunteer unlike the conscripted armies of the continent and had to rely on financial enticements to get men to sign up. This tended to attract the lowest rungs of society in search of steady pay and the promise of battlefield spoils. Coupled with that were criminals given the option to either face a harsh sentence or serve in the ranks and you're going to have an army very rough around the edges.
And yet he was able to make it work,along with Portuguese and Spanish troops as well as "la guerrilla" he managed to keep Napoleon's bleeding ulcer going and deprive him of forces and commanders that could've had useful impact in his other campaigns. The full "scum of the earth quote":
>The French system of conscription brings together a fair sample of all classes; ours is composed of the scum of the earth — the mere scum of the earth. It is only wonderful that we should be able to make so much out of them afterwards.
That he did so well at all is a testament to his ability given what he had to work with.
>inb4 eternal anglo
