Cyrus or Alexander? Who was more based?
>>1157908
Cyrus:
>Took down the Lydian, Medes, Babylonian, and Assyrian empires
>Created the first global empire with amazing administration that allowed it to survive for centuries
>Innovations in military and statehood
>Written the first human rights charter
>Blessed as a messiah by Jews and praised by the Bible and Quran
Alexander
>Took down a declining empire
>literally everything was handed to him
>Empire collapsed as soon as he died
>NO innovations
>Stylized himself as great
>Praised by armchair generals and 4chan neets
I think it's obvious.
>>1157908
Cyrus by a mile
>>1157908
Alexander was not "based", he was a good military leader. He was also a homosexual. So Cyrus.
>>1158495
Alexander was definitely bisexual. Like any typical greek of that era.
>>1157908
Cyrus gave me freedom
>>1157908
>dirty Persian
or
>glorious Greek conqueror who brought improved civilization and Hellenization to the greater world
GEE, WHAT A HARD FUCKING CHOICE OP.
Most people who hate Alexander are just pissed their dads didn't leave them anything worthwhile and that Alexander had his choice of both women AND men whenever he wanted for sex.
Cyrus is a meme pushed by modern day Middle Easterns in an attempt to be relevant. They grasp to this one kernel of their past with the ferocity of a petulant child.
I mean, there is a reason Iran got fucking pissed over 300. The Persian Empire is literally all they have to be proud of in their entire history. They push that shit as hard as they can.
It is simple another form of WE-WUZ-KANGZmanship but has more credence to it because they ACTUALLY were Kings. Even if they were shitty Kings who got BTFO and their modern nations are worthless piles of dirt.
>>1158576
>300
Back to //pol// with you.
Cyrus by a mile.
Diogenes
Literally by recommendation of Alexander.
>>1158608
>replying to bait
>>1158616
The Turk?
>>1158576
Actually most iranians and specially the ones in charge of the place value more their islamic past (and specially it's poets) than the achaemenid one. It's very different with the diaspora, of course.
>>1158576
>Alexander
>Greek
He was Macedonian slav you dirty half-turk gipsy.
Go back to sucking off Germany for money.
>>1158576
Wow...
back to >>>/pol/, maybe even >>>/b/
Cyrus is a meme pushed by post-exile Jews, duh! He conquered Babylon, sent the Jews home, and gave them the money to rebuild the Temple.
What Kool Aid did you drink?
>>1158608
Yes, 300 is indeed a movie I have seen before.
>>1158619
Wasn't bait, Cyrus has been receiving ridiculous elevation over the past decade. People have been trying to portray him as this great uniter and leader of civilization. He was just another despotic jackass in a line of despotic jackasses.
>>1158641
That is kind of sad as their "islamic past" has barely anything to it. Even if they have to lie through their teeth at least Cyrus did actually do some shit during his lifetime.
>>1158642
Calm down mate, Alexander wasn't a slav. Only someone from Russia would ever convince themselves of this in a vain attempt to tie themselves into history.
>>1158642
>When I was in grade 6 I put margarine on my penis and made my dog lick it off. That was the first time I ever heard anybody speaking Greek.
Top fucking kek.
>>1158668
>great uniter and leader of civilization.
He was.
>>1157967
>I think it's obvious.
That you're an armchair general and a Neet?
>>1158688
>Modern Macedonians are the same as Ancient Macedonians
Please stop while you are ahead.
>>1158694
To a delusional Iranian whose entire knowledge of the man consisted of a Wikipedia article summary, maybe.
>>1158668
>Alexander wasn't a slav
Slavs are far more related to Alexander than you Turk/Albo rapebabies.
Go cry into a "gyro" you culture-thieving arab.
>>1158650
>meme
>Jews
>Kool Aid
>/pol/
Your killin' it with the buzzwords tonight, senpai. All you need is cuck and maybe autistic to complete the set.
>>1158705
Okay, I'll bite. What was "despotic" about him, exactly? Outlawing slavery? Freeing the Jews?
>>1158735
>Iranians
I was talking about the delusional WE WUZ MAKEDONIANS "Greek"
>>1158718
I'm not Greek you stupid motherfucker, but Slavs attempting to claim Alexander's legacy are the most delusional bunch of fucking idiots since the African American historian movement trying to make Hannibal out to be a black man.
Go ahead and keep calling me a turk though, I don't even like on the damn continent.
>>1158668
Actually the history of islamic persia is amazingly interesting. It left a beautiful legacy too.
>>1158741
Definitely bullied by a brown boy.
>>1158741
Nowhere near as bad as half-turk/albanians trying to claim to be ancient Greeks, or God forbid, ancient Macedonians.
And yes, you're clearly some butthurt Greek or Greekaboo.
>>1158740
Alexander was Greek.
Ancient Macedonia =/= Modern Macedonia
Ancient Macedonia was largely considered a Hellenized society and Greek. Modern Macedonia is not but wishes it was.
You are coming off as a delusional asshole right now with all this
>YOU FUCKING TURK RAPEBABY
>YOU CULTURE STEALING ARAB
Like holy shit man, calm down. No one in this thread is probably from Greece or Macedonia.
>>1158744
I imagine it would look better as a parking lot, frankly.
>>1158668
By the way, ancient greeks completely loved Cyrus. I'll say than even more than iranians themselves, considering that Cyrus didn't make it into their oral epics.
>>1158751
>Alexander was Greek
You wish, Nikos.
>Macedonia is not but wishes it was
The same way modern Greece wishes it was actually Greek instead of Turk?
>>1158641
Not true and antecedal at best. Sassanid history is more relevant to modern Persians then Achaemenids.
>>1158764
>Greeks loved Cyrus more then Iranians himself
Not true.
Our ancestors and their descendents, modern Iranians, still title Korush as "The Father" for a reason. But it is a fact the Greeks seemed to universally appreciate Cyrus as well.
>>1158759
Seems you're just trolling for the sake of trolling then.
You haven't provided any arguments whatsoever, just inane insults and memery.
At least explain your position and the reasoning behind it if you don't want to look like some retard from /pol/.
>>1158759
Now you're just being edgy, my friend.
>>1158774
>Sassanid history is more relevant to modern Persians then Achaemenids.
How?
>>1158778
>Our
Intothetrashitgoes.jpg
>>1158650
>Cyrus is a meme
How is he a meme exactly?
>He didn't conquer Babylon
How is defeating their army and inflitrating the city's fortress to bypass its defenses not conquering the Babylonian Empire?
>He sent the Jews home
Not exactly. He said if any Jews wished to return to Judea, he said the Persians would encourage any Jews who wished to stay in Babylon or elsewhere to provide money to help finance their neighbors exodus back home. And yes he financed the rebuilding of the Solomon Temple.
What is your rebuttal, stormfront?
>>1158791
What do you mean, "How?"? They are better known the Achaemenids, they are better understood, left more relics, inscriptions, and the modern basis of current Iranian and especially Persian society is mostly reflected from the precedents left by the Sassanids.Ardashir and Shapur are praised in the same capacity as Cyrus and Darius. In some ways more.
>>1158797
t.reddit poster.
>>1158778
Cyrus is literally absent from post-alexandrine native iranian history. Both zoroastrian priestly history and local oral history forgot about him. The Sasanians, obsessed with their ancestors and butt-devastated about the hellenic invasion of the empire, forgot about him.
Go read on the subject. And by read on the subject I don't mean the wikipedia article on Cyrus, go read on actual works by scholars about the exact subject (there's plenty considering it's very specific).
>>1158791
I imagine it's because of the events leading up to the Arab invasions.
>>1158797
>>1158759
>>1158728
>>1158705
>>1158697
>>1158668
>>1158576
You still haven't provided any logical explanation for any of your points, even /pol/ usually makes better arguments than this.
Even as far as bait goes your posts have been total shit.
>>1158810
*better known then the Achaemenids for centuries
>>1158786
Nope, I just genuinely enjoy the appeal of a Cathedral better than a Mosque. I also enjoy a parking lot more because it has a tangible use for me to utilize.
Granted, I've only been to about 6 mosques total in my lifetime, but I've yet to find one where I didn't think the land would be better served for something else entirely.
There is a reason people go to Europe for tourism and not the Middle East (except other Middle Easterners, of course).
There just really isn't anything over there I'm interested in seeing, the past few times I've been to the Middle East (most recently Qatar) were fucking horrendously awful/boring.
We fundamentally disagree that these cultural artifacts possess an inherent value.
>>1158812
>reddit is now the "racist" site
>4chan is the site for good bois who dindu nuffin
Holy fuck someone get off me this wild ride.
>>1158814
>Cyrus is literally absent from post-Alexandrine native Iranian history.
Wrong. The Sassanids name Cyrus multiple times throughout their records that we know, especially in Ardashir and Shapur's inscriptions at Rustam.
>Both Zoroastrian priestly history
Wrong.
>local oral history
Wrong. And fun fact: in most parts of modern Iran to this day, oral traditions have lasted since before the Seleucids took power when it comes to poetry and folklore.
>butt-devestated
Nice buzzword.
>forgot about him
They did not as I explained above.
>wikipedia article
I don't use those much at all.
Please bait better.
>>1158820
>I think a parking lot looks better than that mosque
Seems you simply have a chip on your shoulder regarding the "middle east".
Writing off an entire region's history for no reason is /pol/ tier retardation.
Why project that on to pre-islamic Persia though?
And if you have no interest in anything to do with the middle east, then why come to this thread at all?
>>1158831
1. Who are you quoting?
2. Why are you so autistic?
3. How is the internet at large treating you, /stormfront/?
4. Were you the autist who thinks there's some kind of conspiracy to prop up Cyrus and inflate his legacy?
>>1158831
Strawman harder.
>>1158843
I'm more confused as to why he thinks "the Middle East" is propping Cyrus up.
Literally the only entity that claims Cyrus as part of their history is Iran.
I've yet to see any Arab, Turk, or for that matter, any non-Iranian Muslim, claim Cyrus as part of their history.
In fact, I haven't heard anyone claim Cyrus as a part of "Middle Eastern history", it's literally just Ancient Persia.
>>1158820
Pal, who said anything about mosques (or comparing them to cathedrals, by the way)? There's both religious and non-religious heritage.
>>1158759
>>1158820
Edgy.
>>1158860
What's more interesting is that if anything, due to ethnic and religious tensions between Iranians and non-Shia Arabs especially, many Iraqi historians in particular are attempting to subvert and challenge Cyrus' legacy.
>>1158860
Its just a retarded /pol/ tier shitposter who thinks all middle eastern rook the same and think the same.
>>1158843
1. Utilizing greentext has a variety of uses, not always for direct quoting but sometimes simply for implications or even extrapolations!
2. I don't feel I'm autistic, nor do medical professionals, but who knows? Maybe you are licensed professional with more qualifications at long distance internet diagnosis.
3. So, first I'm from reddit... now I'm from stormfront? Could we at least have some semblance of consistency? If it was /pol/ then stormfront that would be a logical progression of thought but you seem to be jumping all over the place with your assumptions as to what groups I associate myself with.
4. I don't know, I haven't posted to that effect but I certainly agree with the notion that is an active effort by Middle Eastern historians to push both their perceived history and perceived accomplishments harder within the international arena in order to assert legitimacy as a global actor.
i.e. Iran isn't a batshit insane rogue state, look at this great cultured past we come from! How could we bad guys? Alexander was the bad guy! Cyrus is the real hero!
They are attempting to change the narrative, now whether we should agree if the new narrative is more accurate?
I don't know, I don't think so. Maybe you do. To each their own. I don't think Cyrus deserves to be elevated to the status people are talking about him in this thread.
>>1158847
You don't know the meaning of the word.
>>1158884
>the "narrative"
Yep, literally retarded.
>>1158862
Now imagine that as a shopping center where families could access local resources or goods.
>>1158884
Where did I say anything about "racism" in any of the context the first place? So pretty much a classic "put the words in someone else's mouth they didn't say" here.
>>1158897
An excellent rebuttal, friend. Well reasoned.
>>1158622
>Anatolia is Turkey
REEEEEEEEEEEE
>>1158904
>asks for response
>gets response
>moves goal-posts with "T-THAT ISN'T WHAT I EVEN MEANT ANYWAY" without addressing any aspect of the post.
Sorry, I thought you wanted to have a discussion. If you'd rather just shitpost this thread into oblivion, I'm down.
>>1158884
>Middle Eastern historians
It's literally just Iranians who claim Cyrus, if anything Arabs and Turks would want to diminish Cyrus's image.
>Iran isn't a batshit insane rogue state
What does this have to do with their pre-islamic history?
You sound like Frank Miller, trying to trash a country's history just because you don't like their current incarnation.
>Alexander was the bad guy! Cyrus is the real hero!
Neither are "bad guys", least of all Cyrus. There's no "hero" and "villian" in this comparison, both people were hundreds of years apart.
>They are attempting to change the narrative
From what? Cyrus was never described as "bad". Even the Greeks loved him.
What you're doing is trying to rewrite Cyrus as some despotic warlord, when all of the available evidence suggests the opposite.
>Half your history is just foreign domination
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Iran
>>1158899
Iran already has a lot of those, no point on start selling goods in museums when you already have good looking shopping centers.
>>1158951
It's actually what makes their history interesting, to be honest. The survival against all odds.
>>1158907
>>1158884
>narrative
>"History has to be defined the way I subjectively view it"
>"There is no room for change, evolution, or new discoveries that challenge old precedents at all, I won't allow it"
Also why are you autistically identifying the every day Persian with their questionable government? Or falsely equating modern Iran with Cyrus and his dynasty? Do you really have this much mental gymnastics going on in your head?
You are no different then an actual Neo Nazi or tumblr SJW who wants to change things without any actual evidence, precedent, solely because you feel entitled to believe so.
>>1158641
The government has turned Islam into a meme and Iranian patriotism as it actually exists among regular people is largely based on pre-Islamic symbolism and identity.
>>1158576
>>1158608
>>1158930
I never realized meme-movies triggered /his/ so damn hard.
Show me on the Spartan where Mr. Miller touched you, anon?
Seriously, you guys get that it was a total Hollywood flick that wasn't meant to be a 100% word for word historically accurate retelling of Herodotus' account?
It was just meant to be a fun macho action movie about Greco-Persian wars.
I imagine /his/ to be that one super serious friend who can't enjoy a movie AT ALL and will vocally make that known to EVERYONE present if it strays away from the source material in any way.
>>1158951
Isn't that the same for most groups of people, really?
Half of China's dynasties were started by foreigners (Yuan, Qing, I believe there was one started by Tocharians in antiquity).
Russians were all Mongol/Turk vassals for centuries.
Anatolian "Turks" were ruled by Greeks and Persians for centuries.
Arabs were just a backwater dominated by Romans and Persians for centuries.
>>1158951
And all foreign powers that have ruled Iranians were either assimilated or destroyed. So what makes Iranians so GOAT at surviving where as most other ancient people were cosigned to oblivion?
Also:
>over 4 centuries of Iranian intermezzo power breaks the Abbassid caliphate's power and fractures their influence
>"half under foreign domination"
That's a bit of hyperbole.
>>1158884
Alexander is actually portrayed in a very positive light in the iranian national epic.
>>1158952
Oh no, I meant an actual shopping center. Not some shitty Bazaar with tiny little stands of garbage knick-knacks, anon.
Somewhere you could buy a sofa, a meal, a TV, clothing, and a book all within 50 feet of each other.
>>1158985
>So what makes Iranians so GOAT at surviving where as most other ancient people were cosigned to oblivion?
They are willing to cut off their nose to spite their face. They don't care that their country is a literal shithole, their people are oppressed, and the entire world thinks they are a rogue state so long as they can continue to eek by with some semblance of an existence.
In that sense they are very similar to North Korea. Cowards and rats are the ones who always live through war, anon.
>>1159004
When ISIS starts tearing down Roman shit, I get mad too, anon.
This kind of stuff though, they are probably just doing us a favor.
>>1158979
The issue is when retards like >>1158576
try to pass off movie bravado as historical fact. Practically every Ancient Persia-related thread has one retard who gets their arguments from 300.
Not to mention that for most people that movie was their only source for their knowledge on Ancient Persia.
>>1158990
If the Iranians wanted their own shopping center, they would have built one by now.
Are you complaining because Iran doesn't look like America?
>>1159005
So tell me, why are you ass-blasted by that, then? You clearly don't seem to give a shit about Iran or the Iranian people, and all of your posts reek of autistic butthurt.
As for their shithole status and rogue state status, the same could be said for Russia in the 90s. I doubt that stopped the Russians back then from being proud of their history.
>>1158990
You literally can build all that in a "shitty bazaar". Not kidding.
But I don't know if they're 50 feet of each other because I don't use american meme distances.
>>1159005
Did a Persian cuck you of your girlfriend or fuck your sister? Why are you so singlemindley hostile about Iranians?
>>1158817
>I hate Alexander because I read a book about Cyrus the Great that told me he was better.
If you let me know the title ill give it a read man.
>>1159010
>doing us a favor
Who is "us", exactly? Does the existence of a bazaar in Iran really make you that butthurt?
>>1159036
>I hate Cyrus because I have some retarded complex involving Iran
>I love Alexander because he was a strong hwite man who BTFO sand-people
I can shitpost too, anon.
You still have yet to explain why Cyrus was a despotic tyrant.
>>1159010
Kill yourself
>>1159020
You asked why they were so good at surviving despite everyone hating them. I gave you the answer. It wasn't me being "ass-blasted", that is the literal reason Iran and North Korea continue to exist today.
They have no qualms about being unscrupulous/brutal as fuck. Even Russians and Americans are somewhat beholden to international outcry.
The USSR was never a "rogue state", it was one that disagreed with US Foreign Policy. Iran is considered a rogue state by the world at large. Most EU countries won't even open trade with it or normalize relations despite the Nuclear deal.
>>1159023
No one, but it is alright if you guys want to keep responding with buzzwords like
>autistic
>bait
>ass-blasted
>/pol/
>literally retarded
if it makes you feel better, I mean it doesn't really deliver a lot of content to your posts but this is 4chan we are talking about after all and this thread is already a shitposting hub.
>>1159037
>Who is "us"
The people who are eventually going to glass that entire area with Nukes and recolonize it some 50+ years later.
>>1159050
Only if you'll be by my side when I go, love.
>>1157908
If we compare the two, its hard to gauge here. Cyrus the Great like >>1157967 said defeated three of the four world's greatest military powers who were all in alliance united against the Persians once the Median Empire struggled to suppress the Persian Revolt. Cyrus was leading armies since he was a teenager and was targeted for assassination by his own maternal grandfather, the last Median overlord and king. In span of 20 or so years he created the largest empire in history, enacted a policy of peaceful integration, autonomy of subject peoples, no religious or cultural interference, and the creation of a true "universal" society.
He's well regarded due to his legacy as a statesmen and administrator and respected for his military achievements as well as his famous words: "Soft lands breed soft men". His status, legacy, and accolades were so great even when Persian and Greek entity was at its height, the even the Greeks seem to consider the epitome of a just king to be Cyrus as the standard. His reputation and standing was so great that Alexander idolized Cyrus above all other men, Greeks and Macedonians included.
Alexander was truly an amazing conqueror and general but he lacks the qualities that made Cyrus comparatively endearing and unique as a historical figure in such a bloody period of time in Antiquity.
>>1159081
>entity
*enmity
>>1159071
>Iran is a rogue state
Which again, has nothing to do with their ancient history. Which again, confirms my statement that you're simply ass-blasted about modern Iran.
Which is strange, because nobody in this thread is claiming modern Iran is good.
>>1159075
Ah, I see, you're a /pol/ memer. Nobody is glassing anything Cletus, this isn't Civ V.
>>1159071
You're still doing that racist shit of trying to equate the current Iranian regime with its civilian population and ancient Iranians like a fucking spastic moron. Explain how post-Sassanid Iranians "cut off their noses".
>>1159088
Outside of the government, even modern Iran is doing quite well unlike North Korea. Whose people are almost universally malnourished and stunted developmentally as a result. The government is shit I agree, but the people are not bad.
ITT:
2-3 Arrogant and Ignorant Europeans who have no fucking idea what they are talking about.
1 Delusional Slav who is convinced someone else is a Greek/Turk.
2+ Middle Eastern posters calling everyone cucks and asking if brown men have slept with women you know before.
2+ Angry bitter white assholes/douchebags from /pol/ who seem to have an axe to grind.
This thread right here is why we shouldn't even have these fucking discussions. I hate any kind of Eastern History thread because this is what they devolve to and both sides that participate in these debates have the most apparent bias I've ever seen in my life. It's disgusting.
You should all fucking kill yourselves. Yes, all of you. Don't try to distance yourself from each other or say "oh but it was X who started it!". You all contributed to making this thread fucking shit, I hope you are god damn proud of yourselves.
>mfw
>>1159081
I'll say it's not really necessary or benefical to compare both. After all, they're remembered for very different things and they were praised in antiquity for very different reasons.
They were both conquerors and kings, but for ancients Cyrus was the paradigmatic King and Alexander the paradigmatical Conqueror. Very different qualities.
>>1159094
>Outside of the government, even modern Iran is doing quite well unlike North Korea.
This. I dare the butt-blasted jew in this thread to go and try to do couchsurfing in N. Korea.
>>1159100
Now now, there are a few insightful comments buried in this heap of shit.
At the least, this thread was a bit more interesting than the shitty religious threads.
>>1159100
I never called anyone a cuck, I asked the one dude whose clearly shitposting/trolling why he's so angry about Iranians/Persians in general.
>>1159111
God damn, I've never changed religions, my place of origin, or my ethnicity in such a short span of time in my life before.
Over the course of this thread I've been called
>from stormfront
>from /pol/
>a butt-blasted jew
>a dirty half-turk gipsy
>a Kool Aid drinker
>a Turk/Albo rapebaby
>a culture-thieving arab
>a delusional "Greek"
>a butthurt Greek or Greekaboo
>from reddit
I'm a regular god damn Renaissance man apparently.
For /his/torians you guys use buzzwords as a crutch pretty often in an effort to make your points. You are also very quick to demonize opposing viewpoints as being "from an X, and thus immediately dismiss-able or possessing no validity".
I mean I know it is 4chan, but you would think people who lauded history and knowledge above all else wouldn't be so quick to act like /b/ + social studies: the board.
>>1159140
Well, you claimed to be "the people who are eventually going to glass that entire area with Nukes and recolonize it some 50+ years later."
It's my first time in this thread identifying you in any way, but it's the only sane conclusion that you're israelite.
>>1159140
What you are is a shitposter.
>>1159101
I don't see the issue with comparing two of the most famous men in ancient history with each other if the debate can be kept reasonable and polite. They certainly have a relationship and its interesting to forumlate discussion around both men's legacies and accomplishments.
>>1159100
I'm pro-Iranian history and am American/European, not a middle easterner.
>>1159140
>opposing viewpoints
Shitposting is not a viewpoint.
>>1159162
He sounds more like some retarded American, given his rhetoric.
I have noticed though, he has not yet made any real explanation for any of his statements.
He makes a statement without any evidence or explanation, people respond to it, he doesn't follow up on that statement and makes a new, retarded statement, continue ad infimum...
Seems like he's just a bad shitposter.
>>1157967
>>1159171
>I don't see the issue with comparing two of the most famous men in ancient history with each other
Different cultures, times, peoples, places, simply far too many different variables for this to be a reasonable analogy or comparison. It is like comparing Hitler and Napoleon.
>if the debate can be kept reasonable and polite
If it isn't obvious to you at this point in the thread that clearly, it can't. I'm honestly baffled.
>its interesting to forumlate discussion around both men's legacies and accomplishments.
Dude, re-read this fucking thread. You have a completely idealized fiction in your head of what this thread was going to be.
It is 104 posts of shitposting, racism, and history revisionism.
>>1159181
While that anon is downplaying Alexander's accomplishments, the stuff with Cyrus is relatively correct.
But the one thing I'll point out, the Achaemenid Empire under Darius III was definitely a shadow of itself leadershipwise and militarily speaking.
Now that the shitposting has settled, in a list, who were Iran's greatest rulers? The country has such a long history of monarchies that I want to know who was the best of the best and why. Ethnic Iranians of course.
I only know of Cyrus, Nader Shah, and Abbas.
>>1158642
>He was Macedonian slav
>slav
>>1159185
>Different cultures
Persians and Greeks were interacting with each other for centuries, they have overlap with one another, that can not be ignored or downplayed.
>Different times
Antiquity
>places
Interconnected with one another.
Also what "historical" revisionism is going on here?
>>1159191
Cyrus the Great
Darius the Great
Ardashir the Unifer
Shapur I the Great
Shapur II the Great
Yadzgerd the Silent
Khosrow I the Just (his name is so famous for over a thousand years after his life, they used his namesake for Shahs as a title in the same way Augustus or Caesar was used by Romans and Byzantine emperors)
Khosrow II the Victor
Ismail the Great
Abbas the Great
Nader Shah
Reza Khan
>>1159180
*Tips Katana*
You havent even seen my final post yet.... kid.
>>1159191
Also Kavad I, Khosrau's I's father.
>>1159197
Okay, let's compare Jesus and Gaius Julius Caesar. Or maybe Herodotus and Gaius Marius? Perhaps even Cleopatra and Epaminondas since we are making the only criteria for comparison so fucking vague.
You realize how big a fucking period "antiquity" is?
>>1159199
Ebin post brah, you sound and look just like me. You are just missing my fedora and my clear
>arab
>turk
>aryan
>greek
>albanian
>gipsy
>jew
descented appearance. Maybe through some African in there just to complete the set.
>>1159191
Actually, depending on what you mean by "ethnic iranians", Nader wasn't one. By this I mean that he was an afshar turk, which doesn't make him less iranian at all but he's not persian or anything similar if that's what you were asking for.
This pal here >>1159197 gave an acceptable list of important rulers. He forgot based Karim Khan Zand, though. I would also include Abbas II.
>>1159239
Wasn't Nader a Persianized Turk? I think all nations and people in the middle east were.
>Oh hey this thread looks neat!
>*begins reading*
>mfw
I fucking hate you sometimes /his/. I hope every single person in this thread never holds a job position even remotely related to history.
This board is apparently literally just a bunch of fucking children.
This thread should've been deleted and a large chunk of you should've gotten slapped with the banhammer for blatant shitposting.
>>1159239
Wasn't he adopted by the Afshar clan, not born into it?
Also depends on if you define Turk as speaking Turkish, or actually being ethnically/racially Turkic. Turks by the time of Nadir Shah were long assimilated into the native Iranian population (genetically).
ARE THERE ANY GOOD BOOKS ON CYRUS? IS PIC RELATED EVEN GOOD?
>>1159262
Keep reporting bad posts.
I mean, 4chan is unlikely to ever be good again. Too many high school kids have found it and think it's just there for memes and shitposting.
>>1159258
>Was Nader a Persianized Turk
Not necessarily "Persianized", but "Iranized", yes, if you go by genetics/ancestry.
Pretty much any group who ruled Iran was going to become Persianized to some degree.
>all nations and people in the middle east were
No? Most were Semites (Babylonians, Assyrians, etc.). Although in the case of Arabs most "Arabs" today are more genetically similar to their native population.
>>1159269
/his/ was going to be a shitshow anyways, I remember when it first started people were claiming that it would turn to /pol/ within a week.
Trying to discuss history on an anonymous public forum is like trying to herd cats.
>>1159258
>>1159264
That's why I insisted on the "ethnic iranian" point. All central asia was persianized to some degree, so maybe that wasn't enough for him.
>Wasn't he adopted by the Afshar clan, not born into it?
I'm pretty sure that he was born Afshar but I don't really know. His family was afshar, though they died when he was young.
>>1159267
It's a great read but Xenophon wasn't really trying to build an accurate biography of Cyrus. His objective was to exhibit his philosophy, political ideas and idea of the perfect ruler.
>>1159322
but are their any good books on cyrus himself
>>1159223
Jesus wasn't a general or leader of military forces, both Alexander and Cyrus were. Try again, please. Same with comparing Herodotus.
If you want to compare Tabari with Herodotus go for it, or Plutarch with Tacticus, those are legitimate.
>>1159276
>>1159258
>>1159313
A portrait of a young adult Nader Shah shows him with strong Caucasian features. He was adopted by by the Afshar Turkics, but its been suggested he might've been mixed between actual Iranic and Turkic ancestry.
If that's the case, it would explain pic related.
>>1159400
Well most "Turks" in Iran, Anatolia, and Caucasia don't actually have much Turkic ancestry, as genetic studies show.
I doubt the Afshars themselves had much Turkic ancestry to begin with, same with the Safavids and Qajars.
>>1159432
Safavids weren't Turkic. They are Persianized Kurds and Azeris.
>>1159239
What did Abbas II do? I'm familiar with Ismail, Tahmasp, and Abbas I.
>>1159628
That was my point, most "Turks" aren't actually Turkic.
Furthermore, this "Persianized" meme is retarded. You don't have to be Persian to be an ethnic Iranian, the Safavids were Azaris (Ismail was half Kurdish as well), both of which are ethnically Iranian.
Persianized should be used to describe non-ethnic Iranians who adopt Iranian culture (Mughals, Seljuks).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire
Why did the Sassanids rule considerably less territory than the Achaemenids?
>>1159767
The Safavids were primarily a family of mixed Kurdish and Azeri descent who adopted a more Persian culture and influence. Irregardless, my point was they aren't Turkic but 100% ethnically Iranian.
>>1159899
Not considerably less but smaller, and that mainly had to do with facing the Romans and later Byzantine Empires. They were also considerably more centralized, stronger militarily, far more advanced, religious zealous, and administratively stronger then the Achaemenids and far more proactively militaristic.
>>1159909
What about from behind? Did India have some hegemony all of a sudden? Also, what's with that enclave in Arabia?
>>1158514
bisexual and shit like that didnt exist back then you shit. People didn't think about all this "looove" shit when they shagged their mates, they just shagged their mates and left it at that. Greeks still took wives and had children, for instance, unlike the gays of today.
>>1158608
why do /his/fags always reply hurr duur /pol/ to everything they don't like?
>>1159938
Sassanids controlled almost all of Pakistan and most of if not all of the Indus River Valley. They also destroyed the Kirditse and set up a vassal state by another branch of House Sassan called Indo-Sassan that took parts of its territory from the falling Kushan Empire as well.
Also there were several Indian kingdoms existing in relation to this and the White Huns kind of fucked things up for nearly two centurise before the Sassanids destroyed them with the Goturks help.
>>1159943
Self policing. Most of us ARE /pol/ and /int/ but don't want this place to be like /pol/ and /int/, so race stuff and "country banter" is immediately met with hostility even if we don't really care about it.
There are still some il/lit/erates remaining here that mean it genuinely, though.
>>1158983
>Half of China's dynasties were started by foreigners (Yuan, Qing, I believe there was one started by Tocharians in antiquity).
>implying
12 Dynasties which had control over most of China, 2 of them had non-Han imperial houses (16.7%).
By duration:
Imperial China: 221 BC - AD 1911 (2132 years)
Yuan: 1271-1368
Qing: 1644-1911
(364 years total, 17.1%)
>>1158576
You are the cancer killing this board.
>>1157908
Cyrus, although he couldn't have done shit without that guy that had his army flip sides during a battle.
>>1160030
This actually, hell I post on /pol/ daily but if you've ever visited the other chan's /pol/ you'll relize how fucking annoying an echo chamber is and I would hate for this place to become that.
>>1160799
Same for Alexander in a way, Cleitus saved Alexander from being killed by a Persian nobleman in melee combat during the Battle of Granicus.
>>1159941
>People didn't think about all this "looove" shit when they shagged their mates, they just shagged their mates and left it at that
Clearly you haven't read Plato
Heres what I want some of the more dedicated posters on /his/ to do. Submit an application to be a janitor on /his/, so that next time a thread like this gets shat up you ban 80% of the replies that are just garbage
>>1161038
So that one guy who was posting the literally all the shitposts in the thread?
What history do we have on the Battles of Cyrus? Was he as good of a military commander as Alexander?
>>1157908
>Cyrus
>one of the most famous Persians in history
>Alexander
>one of the most famous human beings in history
Cyrus was a local star, Alexander was a world star.
>>1159171
>I'm pro-Iranian history
Why would you admit you have a bias? You know that does nothing but harm whatever argument you have, right?
>>1161655
It's better to admit you have a bias than to have one and not admit it.
>still calling Persia "Iran"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I bet you call Constantinople/Byzantium "Istanbul" too.
>>1161645
Yes but it should be the other way around. Alexander should check his privilege.
Jokes aside.. Objectively comparing the two and their origins.. Alexander falls underneath Cyrus's shadow.
>>1161953
Except because Persia is the "Istanbul" in this equivalence.
>>1159667
Mostly being the only Safavid worthy of the legacy of his great grandfather Abbas I. Esfahan owes him a lot (never as much as the first Abbas of course).
>>1159899
You're not gonna compare the Roman Empire with any of the early enemies of the Achaemenids, right?
You should be asking yourself why the Sassanids existed for more than four centuries, often being able to be on the offensive, against all or most (depending on the age) of the mediterranean world.
>>1159938
>Also, what's with that enclave in Arabia?
The control of Indic trade was very important for the persians. First because it was very profitable, but second because this control meant that romans could not access goods from south and east asia without the persian middle man.
Long story short: The ethiopian kingdom of Aksum, allied with Rome, invaded Himyar in Yemen because the jewish himyarite king was persecuting christians who were seen as a threat to himyarite sovereignty. The himyarites then asked Khosrow I to help them and so the persians sent an expedition to expulse the ethiopians. Thus Aksum was blocked, starting a period of ethiopian isolation that would continue in the age of islam, and the romans lost yet another eastern route free of persians. After that (but not immediately) the persians annexed Himyar.
>>1160799
No king rules alone.
>>1158576
t. Gyro Stefanopoulus
Alexander was a great general.
Cyrus was a great general but a better statesman.
If they were to meet on the battlefield it's a toss up but without a doubt I'd want Cyrus running my empire.
>>1162065
huh?
>>1161953
Persians have always referred to their entire nation, along with all other Iranians, as "Eran", not Persia.
>>1161102
Please respond
>>1164439
We know that Cyrus like to used combined arms tactics with infantry, missile/skirmishers, and cavlary troops. We know that he made fairly innovative use of siege towers and trenches during his invasion of the Lydian and Babylonian Empire.
We know at the Battle of Thymbra that Cyrus executed perfect counter to a flanked winged encirclement. Most of this is hearsay but it corresponds with Cyrus the Great's rise to power and other statements in Jewish and Babylonian records.
I'd suppose Cyrus, because he ruled as more than just a conqueror.
All Alexander wanted to do was conquer
Are biographies and other written sources on Cyrus accurate? How much historiography was done on arguable history's first major figure?
Does Alexander have a based march about him?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V431SfrIPeI
Checkmate hellenes
>>1159951
it waxed and waned. The guptas had control of the indus valley for a time, then the sassanids, and the indo sassanid kingdoms. Sindh for example flip flopped considerably between the two powers
>>1162818
Iran is not a muslim name and even less a new one. Etymologically it literally means (land of) Aryans by the way.
Ironically the shah asked the western nations to stop calling the country Persia and instead use the native name because "Persia" had a connotation of islamic/oriental decadence and barbary at the time.
>>1165015
>Are biographies and other written sources on Cyrus accurate?
No, we have to read the accounts of greeks and jews since persians and zoroastrians historically had a hard-on for oral history.
>>1165176
The first Pahlavi Shah asked Westerners to stop referring to Iran as "Persia" because Persians weren't the only Iranian people that resided in the country. It had nothing to do with anything islamic or "barbary".
>>1165183
No. Any original authentic records of Cyrus the Great were likely destroyed by Alexander burning Persepolis. Achaemenids, Arsacids, and Sassanids did leave behind records, writings, and inscriptions but the majority of those that survived are fragmentary. More so for the Achaemenids and Arsacids in particular.
>>1165027
This is pretty cool, is it really dedicated to Cyrus the Great?
>>1157967
>Blessed as a messiah by Jews
That brings down Cyrus overall rating by half
>>1165519
>being so GOAT even the Jews respect a gentile as Cyrus
>brings him down
How so?
>>1165572
Jews are essentially the Germans of the Middle East.
>Deceitfully cunning
>Source of most wars
>Surrounded by enemies
>Claim most scientific inventions
>>1165585
/pol/ please go
