So, how would Macedonian soldiers fight when they stormed cities? They can't possibly have carried their sarissas with them up ladders or formed phalanxes on top of walls. While a dory seems more practical for that, he never had that many hypaspists and beyond that it still seems unwieldy. Those tiny-ass daggers don't really seem like they would cut it, so what did they use? Xiphos? Kopis? Would they use formations? What kinds? I'm genuinely curious, and I can't really find anything on it. Anyone here know anything?
>approach wall
>poke defenders with long stick
>use stick like a pole vault
>poke defenders inside wall
>control known world
>>979173
Awesome. Anyone who isn't retarded want to answer?
>>979163
Well how does it work in Rome:Total War?
They cut off the food supply and waited for the people inside to surrender of waited for an army to meet them on a battlefield. They didn't vault walls. Sometimes they knocked them down.
>Block supplies
>play dice with whores for a month
>enemy starves, surrenders
You can also try digging under the walls, try to break down the gates then melee combat, set fire to the city woth fire arrows, building ramparts to the walls and use melee from there, but it is mostly waiting until the morale breaks. When you get in you either use your normal spears or shorter spears or swords, axes and maces as you would on any battlefield
I've read that typical sarrisa wasn't made from a single piece of wood and has a join in the middle, so it could be used as a traditional spear if needed.
>>979196
>>979205
Except that's total bullshit. Miletus, Halicarnassus, Tyre, Gaza, Cyropolis, The Sogdian Rock, Massaga, Aornos, and the Multanese Citadel were all taken by storm. The only siege I can think of where they waited for the defenders to starve was Ada
They also used a wide variety of mounds, towers, ladders, and rock climbers to assail cities. Don't answer if you have no idea what you're talking about.
Also, in the case of
>>979205
>Macedonians
>Axes and maces
An hero pls.
>>979235
I get that, but then it's basically a dory and the same question remains: How do you effectively use a dory to fight when you can't form a phalanx? Especially against people with swords or who can get into formation on top of the wall/tunnel opening.
>>979183
They used trebuchets and catapults to destroy the cities/walls/fortifications. Cities either capitulated, or were forced to suffer further ranged attacks until the walls were in such a state that the Macs could walk into the city.
>>979163
Well of their entire army only a part carried pikes, the rest carried shorter spears and such. If that tiny ass dagger was enough for romans it should be enough for Macedonia right?
In the medieval and renaissance period they simply blasted a hole in the wall and went in with pikes quite often.
>>979245
Except that didn't they used mounds, ladders, and rock climbers as well. Look at Gaza or the Multanese Citadel of Sogdian Rock. They got on top of the walls with ladders, mounds, and rock climbers and then somehow stormed and won. Looking for more detail on the storming part.
>>979252
You are correct. I would argue that the ranged assaults were used to weaken the fortifications/morale to a point where climbing the walls/entering would be feasible.
Basically, I agree with you. But the actual siege is what allowed that to take place.
>>979240
They were taken by storm when no army was present because they lost handily on the battlefield or had yet to show up. You don't need fancy tactics to scare a bunch of civillians into capitulation.
>>979264
wrong. Taking a city is hard as fuck, even if you have the numbers.
Look at crusades 5-8.
>>979252
Well swords then.
Didn't one of the campaigns in the Hindu Kush involve scaling a rock face to enter a fort?
>>979259
Yeah, but the storming part is what I'm curious about. We have accounts of sieges where the Macedonians storm the walls and lose all of 15 men. This makes it seem like they had some sort of edge in tactics or equipment, but it doesn't seem like they could use their pikes, and fighting in loose order with swords seems unlikely to produce those results.
>>979272
Yeah taking fortified cities is extremely difficult. You need great siege capabilities. After the ranged attack destroys fortifications and moral and shit - you can climb the walls and organize in the interior walls.
>>979251
>Well of their entire army only a part carried pikes, the rest carried shorter spears and such
Yeah, but even dory spears need a phalanx to be really effective
>If that tiny ass dagger was enough for romans it should be enough for Macedonia right?
Macedonian daggers were around 10 cm long. Think less gladius, more rondel dagger
>In the medieval and renaissance period they simply blasted a hole in the wall and went in with pikes quite often.
The Macedonians did this a lot too, but also frequently got on top of the walls with siege towers, siege ladders, siege mounds, siege bridges, and at one point even rock climbers
>>979282
>but it doesn't seem like they could use their pikes, and fighting in loose order with swords seems unlikely to produce those results.
Why that? In all likelihood casualties were downplayed. Another thing to account for is that the attackers are concentrating on a small part of wall that not could possible have an entire army on top.
If video games have taught me anything, they just poked at the walls with their spears until they caught fire and collapsed.
>>979282
Yeah I'm honestly not sure what weaponry they used inside of the walls. If I had to guess, I'd say they used short spears, as their pikes could detach in the middle.
>>979245
>trebuchets
>they used trebuchets
>>979240
>>979252
>>979282
You really can't think that Alexander employed nothing but pikes, right? That's the very reason the successor kingdoms began to collapse when they could no longer deploy or field their heavy cavalry or properly guard their phalanx's flanks.
Pretty sure the Macedonians employed axe-wielding Agrianians, who were also very skilled climbers. They also had hypaspists and elite 'peltasts' for storming. They certainly weren't armed with pikes.
>>979277
Swords seems unlikely unless they had special tactics or something. They once took an entire city losing only 25 men; it seems like fighting in loose order with kopis wouldn't accomplish that.
>>979302
>not sure what you're implying
>>979305
If you overrun the enemy and cause them to flee quickly you might.
Reading war memoirs from later dates can help a lot in seeing how situations unfold sometimes. Sometimes a group as small as 100 men stormed a tower with ladders and conquered a city before all defenders could be in place.
>>979307
He might have meant that Trebuchets were not around during that time, not sure about it myself though.
>>979173
>>979307
Where they also using machineguns?
Trebuchets + Alexander should not be mentioned together
>>979307
Trebuchets were invented during the High Middle Ages, french name should be a clue.
>>979304
>You really can't think that Alexander employed nothing but pikes, right? That's the very reason the successor kingdoms began to collapse when they could no longer deploy or field their heavy cavalry or properly guard their phalanx's flanks.
Yeah, but you can't use cavalry on walls. Also, he didn't have that many hypaspists or peltasts. Hypaspists were basically hoplites, so they would need to form phalanxes too, and peltasts were skirmishers who would probably try to avoid shock combat.
>Pretty sure the Macedonians employed axe-wielding Agrianians
I thought he only had Agrianian Peltasts to serve with his hypaspists?
>They also had hypaspists and elite 'peltasts' for storming
How do his hypaspists for phalanxes on walls, then? Or do they just fight in loose order with dorys? Also, pretty sure peltasts were skirmishers.
>>979304
The Successor states always had good cavalry and light infantry. In sieges the phalangites would fight as peltasts.
>>979321
That might be what happened. I was also just thinking about heavy armor and phyical fitness, but it still seems weird. I'd like to get an actual answer from someone, even though that seems unlikely to happen
>>979340
>Ptolemaic Egypt
>Good cavalry
Not every successor state was the Seleucid Empire
>>979337
>Also, pretty sure peltasts were skirmishers.
Yeah, but the line gets blurred pretty often between the quintessential 'guy in rags throwing javelins' and something that seems more akin to a more lightly-armoured shock/elite infantryman, which certainly seems to be the case for later iterations of the peltast. It seems to explain the Agrianians quite well since they always fought in the thickest of it.
>>979350
They're not wearing that much, just torso protection, helmet and possible greaves.
>>979277
Yeah, the Sogdian rock. they also had an incident where Alexander got impatient, climbed a ladder, leapt into a fortress, and apparently personally killed the Multanese king
>>979380
A lot less than many other soldiers, means they got a bit more protection too.
>>979403
I guess what I'm calling back to is Miltiades attributing low Greek casualties at Marathon to physical fitness and armor, and wondering if the same held true here.
>>979413
Could be anything.
Maybe the defenders were already shitting their pants and broke when the first guy reached the top.
>>979426
Well, we have lots of accounts of them fighting back pretty hard with Macedonians on the wall, including one example where Alexander was hit with an arrow and almost died, so I'm inclined to doubt that explanation.
>>979163
They poked walls with spears until the walls caught fire.
>>979358
We don't count the gyppos as civilized.
>>979334
>Trebuchets were invented during the High Middle Ages, french name should be a clue.
The French name is only a "clue" that the English learned about them from the French.
The beam sling engine almost certainly originated with the Chinese, who spread it to the Arabs, who in turn spread it to the Greeks. The Greeks refined the idea, and by the Komnenid dynasty they were utilizing hybrid (and possibly counterweight-only) engines that were superior to what the Arabs had. By way of the Crusades and other contacts between the Greeks and the Latins, the technology then spread into central and western Europe.
>>979305
this is also true, although there were also a lot of bloody sieges like Tyre and Gaza.
One thing people tend to ignore with Alexander is that he was a fairly talented strategic and operational general, not just as a field tactician. Like a lot of other great generals, he knew the value of speed and surprise when maneuvering, and would often take back roads or march through mountain passes in winter that people believed were blocked. His surprising movement and his ability to prove possible what most people believed was impossible scared the crap out of a lot of opponents. When you're being told that the enemy army is weeks away behind snowed in mountains and the next day they show up on your door step while all your troops and are still in winter quarters, surrender seems like a good idea
>>979196
not even remotely true, Alexander had rapelling teams scaling temples carved into mountains
>>979163
They replace the long stick with sticks for throwing at people.
>tiny ass daggers
They carried swords, anon.
>>979235
This. The ass end is also a fucking terrifying mace.
>>979243
You fucking stab them. Spears are perfectly effective weapons outside of a formation.
>>979282
First, the casualties are downplayed.
Second, you're tlaking about armored men with shields storming places held by locals with spear and bow, with the heaviest men having a vest at best and no helmet.
They have a MASSIVE qualitative advantage.
>>979296
>Yeah, but even dory spears need a phalanx to be really effective
No, they don't. There's no functional difference between a dory and the simple spear that has been used in EVERY human culture since the stone age.
>Macedonian daggers were around 10 cm long. Think less gladius, more rondel dagger
They also commonly carried swords.
>>979307
Trebuchets enter Europe around 900ad, and not even in the far more advanced form you're thinking of.
>>979337
Peltasts were often wearing armor equal to a hoplite and carrying swords or thrusting spears by that time.
>Hypaspists were basically hoplites, so they would need to form phalanxes too
They were specifically used for flank guards and fighting on broken ground, anon.
>>979403
It's more than the majority of soldiers in the world at that time.
>>979413
Yes. Clothing, and bow, or wicker shield and spear were still the most common arms for Persians. A man with a scale vest was heavily armored by contemporary standards.
>>979337
NIGGER, this is not Rome Total War we are talking about, reality is different. Motherfucking kids I swear.
