>who for one reason or another are considered greater than they they actually were
Just say "who are overrated", damn it.
>>976255
>FDR
Well he certainly wasn't greater then he actually was, he was probably overrated.
/thread
>>976255
Washington. Kennedy. Teddy Roosevelt.
>>976255
Let's try not to make this an American president thread please
Hmm I dont know
I've always found Cicero rather overrated
Did someone say Churchill?
>>976255
>>976276
I always wonder just how much reading the people who make these claims have done.
There's a good reason why these two presidents are routinely top 5 of every historian's list of Greatest Presidents. They obviously made mistakes, but they navigated the immense challenges of their ages with a judiciousness & adroitness that is worthy of approbation.
>>976321
But muh alt right
>>976321
>but they navigated the immense challenges of their ages with a judiciousness & adroitness that is worthy of approbation
>big words make me smart
You're on 4chan. Quit being an even bigger sperg than the rest of the spergs here.
>>976321
They are memed out of proportion
They aren't even fun like Jackson
Perhaps not on /his/, but this fucker gets wayy too much praise from college socialist types.
>>976329
>But muh alt right
¿Que?
>>976332
But unlike Jackson they weren't shit as presidents
>>976337
Honestly I have never heard anyone talk about Che Guevara unless it's concerning the biopic or in an actual classroom
And in all honestly the iconic picture of him just looks cool, if it wasn't associated with hipster numale liberals then I'd be happy to wear it or plaster it on my walls
>>976337
Quite so, he's a murderer and a cunt. I wonder why so many college faggots admire him.
>>976321
I find him overrated because his political career was a carbon copy of TR, his new deal was not successful, but people think it was, he advertised many of his reforms as more moderate than they actually were evolving into things that are modern day concerns, weak character, not listening to agencies like the sta te department who told him things that later on were proven true, and horrible foreign policy in Asia.
>>976343
That's arguable
I hate any president that would drag the nation into a world war that didn't even involve us
>>976381
>get attacked on pearl harbor
>'dragged us into'
>>976389
>refused to deal with the Japs even on the brink of war
>being a hardnosed cunt means you're not at fault when you get attacked out of desperation
>>976400
>the nips dindu nuffin
>>976400
>Japs were good boyz, dey dindu nuffin, the USA made them attack Pearl Harbor!
>>976389
>let an attack lead you into fighting on the Western front
>believing that the government didn't WANT pearl harbor to occur
Please lad
Pearl harbor made the president and government at the time ecstatic
They could finally formally join the battle safely and with the backing of the American public
>>976400
So he should have just sanctioned the unprovoked Japanese aggression in the far east against a friendly nation?
In my opinion Roosevelt's response was measured & reasonable.
>>976408
>being a good politician is bad guize
>>976414
>the unprovoked Japanese aggression
>Marco Polo Bridge Incident
>Unprovoked
>Seizure of French Indochina (traded from Vichy France)
>aggression
Wew lad
>>976255
No man is perfect.
>>976411
What was FDR supposed to say
>Yes Hirohito, you can keep raping the Chinese and destroying our relationships with Asian nations and threaten our holdings in the Pacific
>Would you like me to suck you off while you watch anime my glorious emperor?
>>976406
>meanwhile every time Murica nig nogs on countries
>We nindu nuffin, we gud boyz!
>>976416
Actually yes yes it is
>>976427
>Marco Polo Bridge Incident was China's fault
>Japan wuz good boyz dey dindu nuffin
>>976427
>we're only carving up China in self defense!
>>976440
What does the nig nogging of the United States have to do with the nig nogging of the Japanese?
You don't know my stance on any nigging or nogging that the USA may or may not have been a part of
>>976442
>I prefer it when we have ineffective ideologues in power who get nothing done and let the country rot
>>976429
>threaten our holdings in the Pacific
That thing the Japanese stated multiple times they had no intention of doing? That thing that even the Japanese government stated within the government there was no intention of? The U.S. provoked the shit out of the Japanese. It's pretty amazing that the German didn't drag America into the war sooner considering FDR led an undeclared naval war against the Germans.
>>976443
>Chinks storm bridge to attack Japs
>Not Chinks fault
>>976445
>You need to surrender since you attacked us first!
>No!
>Then we're going to carve you up like a turkey until you do
>>976453
>this country that bombed us wrote on a piece of paper they won't hurt us obviously it's true
>>976451
I prefer when politicians don't run the world yes
>>976462
>this country that bombed us wrote on a piece of paper they won't hurt us obviously it's true
>this country that bombed us after we stopped negotiating wrote on a piece of paper that they wouldn't hurt us several times until we stopped negotiating
Jesus, more straw men than fucking Oz in this thread.
>>976453
>The Japanese said they wouldn't fuck with us, of course they wouldn't! They are honoboru and would never go back on their word
>Even though their bestie Germany agreed to not take anymore land about 1000 times and did so anyway
>Chinks storm bridge that is a Chinese bridge on Chinese soil in an effort to stop getting cucked by nips
>not nips fault
>>976466
So you're either 16 or just stupid
>>976443
Not him but I remember reading about a theory were it was orchestrated by the USSR and and Chinese communist because Russia was worried about Japan's forces being so far north and by doing it would have them send the forces south to fight and weaken the Chinese nationalist.
>>976470
>implying Japan is Germany
>admitting that the chinks are at fault in the Marco Polo Bridge incident while completely deflecting blame away from them
Shiggy diggy
>>976467
>they stopped talking to us
>let's just bomb their shit that'll definitely work
>>976484
>Japan invaded China
>China fights back
>this is China's fault
Wew
>japan acts on its imperial ambitions that include territorial aggrandizement in China & the far east
>attracts condemnation from the entire international community (except its axis allies)
>This unhampered aggression will impair US far-east interests
>the US slaps on increasingly tough sanctions as Japanese aggression continues in clear defiance of US policy
>Japan carries out a sneak attack that kills thousands of Americans so they can continue grabbing clay and achieve their imperial ambitions
>fucking roosevelt why did you drag America into war?
>>976337
This fucking war criminal who only faced dumb armies and got killed by a semi-dumb army.
>>976255
its been almost 80 years and low life libtardian shills are still buttblasted by this guy. Pretty much a testament to his greatness
Anti FDR shitposting is a /his/ meme; you people had your chance when your big money coup against him failed; the greatest generation elected him 4 times in a row you fucking cucks
>>976491
i second this wew
>>976543
The only one who sounds butt blasted here is you guy,l. Big deal he got elected 4 times the first was against an opponent many could win against. The others was because in the time of war at that magnitude the country needed a national figure. It was the military that won that war not him. Go scroll up a little and you'll see a list of reasons that you choose to over look.
>>976592
The only reason anyone said is that FDR should have made Japan not attack us
>>976428
He's God, not a mere man.
>>976612
Jesus was a man, according to historians
>>976346
with the Cold War over he is fading from memory. Castro has more staying power desu
>>976543
I see a lot more making fun of libertarians than actual libertarians here. I just don't like FDR cuz le japanese internment
>>976255
>>976676
also to contribute:
-marc antony/cleopatra
-brutus
-cato the censor
-georges danton
-henry viii and perhaps elizabeth to a lesser degree (arguably unimportant overall but I still love learning about the tudors)
-louis XIV, maybe
most italian renaissance despots, especially cesare borgia and the borgia pope
some may say machiavelli but i enjoy him and although he was a minor player his life was very interesting
>>976708
>I just don't like FDR cuz le japanese internment
valid criticism, probably the shittiest thing FDR did
>>976543
name calling isn't cool dude
>Edward I of England
Was a very strong leader, but his unhealthy obsession in later life of trying to conquer Scotland ran his country into deep financial and political trouble, which then lasted for several generations.
>>976255
>Ended the great depression
>Won most of WWII
4/10 president would not re-elect.
Overmemed: MLK
Undermemed: GLR
>>979031
>caused a depression within a depression
>continued Wilson's idiotic policy of interventionism
>pic related
>>976255
Reagan a shit
>>979468
Regan, FDR, LBJ, Truman and Huey Long
A
Shit
>>979031
I like FDR but don't be one of those idiots that believe he ended the Great Depression because of the New Deal.
>>979443
>Hostile Congress forces Roosevelt to cut back on New Deal plans and balance the budget
>Things immediately break
>Continuing New Deal policies fixes it
muh Roosevelt recession
>>979443
>caused a depression within a depression
Do you mean the '37 recession? If so, you're either trolling or woefully misinformed. The same holds as true if you don't mean the recession of '37, so you've kind of painted yourself into a corner on this one.
>muh isolationism
That intervention finally gave us an excuse to spend our way out of te depression, and it propelled us to the hegemony we enjoy today.
>>976348
Because he was photogenic lol.
Literally that's it, his pictures look really cool and he was a revolutionary so college age liberals love him without realizing that just because somebody is a photogenic revolutionary doesn't mean they are good.
>>979488
>>979501
Why must we be the hegemon?
Why must their be one global hegemon?
Why not retain regional powers as we had been intended to?
Neither the heroic capitalist she-god the right make her out to be nor the devil incarnate that the left make her to be.
>>979514
Because some state will always want to be hegemon, and will actively pursue hegemony, so it's better to be hegemon than a regional power dealing with a hegemon. Just ask Saddam how well being a regional power turned out.
>>979533
Saddam was in a highly volatile state of affairs, you know, invading other countries.
Hardly comparable to the US.
>>979514
Because multipolar world orders tend to collapse and result in massive violence. With the existence of nuclear weapons such the inevitable war could very well destroy all human civilization. Simply put, there must be a hegemon to ensure the planet doesn't compeltely fuck itself.
>>979514
Because Cold War and we won.
>>978911
>buried in plain wooden box
>'bury me elaborately when Scotland is conquered'
>still in that fucking box
we can still hope
>>979540
Heagomony doesn't prevent nuclear war.
And causes more regional scuffles than having multiple regional powers would.
Also, nuclear weapons will eventually reach fourth stage, and be employed for practical use.
>>979551
>Heagomony doesn't prevent nuclear war.
Because there have been so many nuclear wars since America became Hegemon.
>And causes more regional scuffles than having multiple regional powers would.
The amount of "regional scuffles" might be less, but the body count and destruction is much smaller than a war in which several great powers fight at parity. Compare the death total from say, Gulf Wars 1 & 2 with World Wars 1 & 2.
>Also, nuclear weapons will eventually reach fourth stage, and be employed for practical use.
The existence of pure fusion weapons isn't going to suddenly make all the stockpiles of fission/fusion weapons disappear or become any less effective at deterring opponents.
>>979551
Hegemony allows one state to intervene and prevent proliferation, which limits the potential for nuclear war. And while nukes are already practical under NUTS theory, the fact that MAD theory exists seems to effectively prevent their use, since people foolishly believe that MAD is right, which paradoxically is what makes MAD a functional strategy for preventing nuclear war.
>>979514
>Why not retain regional powers as we had been intended to?
As we had intended to? What?
>>979661
Founding fathers, even going so far to split up regional power by secession of states as necessary, supported the idea of being a regional power.
>>976605
It's larger than that. FDR, like Wilson before him, desperately wanted to enter the war on the side of the Allies, but couldn't do it because of strong public sentiment against it. While I doubt it was the driving goal of FDR's policy on aggravating Japan, it certainly played an element. A man looking for a fight is willing to be a lot more aggressive when dealing with another than he would be otherwise.
>>979501
>the hegemony we enjoy today.
>Constantly being forced to play Daddy with the kids in the Sandbox.
>Forever being forced to give a free ride in terms of military defense to highly developed nations
>These nations peoples then proceed to mock us for not being as socially "developed as them," and having third world infrastructure because we subsidize their defense for peanuts
>Forever have to be at odds with any nation on earth that tries to take a piss without our permission.
>Forced to open up our markets to cheap foreign trash in order to keep oligarchical elites in our pockets.
Yeah, real nice hegemony we have. A nation can be hegemonic without being interventionist.
>>979885
>A nation can be hegemonic without being interventionist.
No it can't.
one of the most overrated philosophers of all time. worst part is that those who claim to love him either haven't even read his work or come close to understanding him. i don't mind N at all, he's just massively overrated.
>>979891
Actually it is possible, just very difficult. It would require having the world's most massive force projection and the world's most passive populace.
It's not possible for any current hegemons to be non-interventionalist.
>>979891
yes it can. our culture has been influential since world war II and in the late decade especially the word is coming more and more to adopt american culture, for better or worse.
>>979953
>you can establish hegemony based solely on the influence of your popular culture
International politics isn't a game of Civilization V anon. It just doesn't work like that.
>>979777
Oh please, only Washington and Madison wanted to be regional. Adams, Jefferson and Hamilton wanted us to be a player on the global stage.
>>980507
yeah good point... then again, the international financial elite is pretty homogenous in its outlook, which is american neoliberal (to use a memeword) through and through.
This.
Reagan was completely overated. Apparently he had the onset of dementia for the last two years in office.
>>980519
Defiantly NOT jefferson.
Madison is a faggot, and Adams was OK.
>>976612
I am God.
>>980985
Everything is my property
>t. Stirner
>>976321
Well, Lincoln kinda misshandled the beginning of the Civil War. Remember, when he entered office only the deep south had seceded. He surrounded himself with biased northerners who told him the upper south would stay with the union even in case of an invasion. Lincoln used Sumter as cause for invasion and VA, TN, and NC seceded. They were the strongest southern states and caused the civil war to drag on for so long. Lincoln's legacy was saved by three people. Stanton, who won him international support, Grant, who won him the war, and Booth, who killed him and made him a martyr before he could have had his ass torn out by radical republicans during congressional reconstruction.
I still think he's great, but definitely overrated. That tends to happen when any criticism of Lincoln gets shouted down as "neo confederate" apology for slavery.
>>977360
>Washington considered greatest President of all time
>Presidency was extremely shitty and Washington was literally Hamilton's sock puppet
>Mediocre general at best
>Kennedy was the exact same as LBJ but is heralded as great because some commie shot him
>Teddy was the beginning of big government
>Hailed because of memes
All of them were shit in different ways. They're all heralded as great because of bullshit. The only pleb here is you.
>>976255
>>980985
You are a spook then
>>982112
>Washington
Created the precedent of two terms, warned against the dangers of political parties, set up the first national bank, etc. He almost never makes top 5 presidents lists, but he's usually top 10-20, which is about right. Not overrated at all.
>JFK
Barely accomplished anything, only seen as good because he died before trying to accomplish his goals but after articulating those goals, so people like him because they can fantasize about what might have been.
>Teddy
Busted trusts, made the executive branch actually matter in domestic policy, would go out on cross-country speaking tours to get people to pester their representatives into passing the legislation he wanted, created the FDA, solidified the American empire, negotiated an end to the Russo-Japanese war, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Not overrated in the slightest.
>>976255
>>984850
If anything Obama is underrated. Arguably his biggest mistake was appointing Shillary Sec State, every time he listened to her it produced a clusterfuck. His domestic policy has been pretty sound, and he's gotten a lot done considering how obstructionist congress has been during his second term.
>>983551
>Created the precedent of two terms, warned against the dangers of political parties, set up the first national bank, etc
>implying abided by sticking two terms until it was legislated as a constitutional amendment
FDR may have been the only President to win more than two terms, but the majority of Presidents tried for three.
>economic melt down
>first national bank literally set up to take care of Hamilton and his cronies
>almost outbreak of civil war
>division of Americans between federalists and democratic-republican outright caused by Washington's presidency, warnings ex-post facto aside
Shit President.
>JFK
So you admit he's overrated?
>Teddy
Don't forget: Economic meltdown during his presidency, began big goverment which you admit,
>solidified the American empire
Literally no. McKinley and Taft did this.
>negotiated an end to the Russo-Japanese war
Alienating Japan to the point that diplomatic relations between the U.S. and Japan never recovered. Meme president.
This guy.
>>984850
It seems like JFK started the trend of showing your teeth in the presidential photo
>>984942
I still wonder what would have happened if he'd listened to her about Syria.
>>985362
This. All of his "legacy" was either destroyed or SEVERELY neutered not by the Liberals but by Labor themselves.
He's actually a meme PM, just like Kevin Rudd.
>>984942
>his domestic policy has been pretty sound
>racial tensions highest since 91
>america more divided into left and right than ever before
>>976255
>had 8 gfs or something
>never fucked them
>married a white woman
>died a virgin
>wrote some shitty propaganda that kids are made to worship in high school now
>never really fought for independence
>he wanted the philippines to be a spanish province
>denied his catholic faith before he died
>tfw some people actually think that he's a god
>only reason he's a national hero is because the Americans forced him down our throats back in colonial times for the flips to have a pacifistic hero to look up to
>he's a freemason
>>985400
He is the closest to a messianic politician we have. What I don't understand is WHY he is so popular now when, even if you consider the Dismissal to be a bit shady, Labor was sent to the opposition for the next decade.
I do love that Australia doesn't have the 'neoliberal figurehead' like Thatcher or Reagan. Instead, it was the leftist party that pushed for neoliberalism so they can't complain too much.
>>981070
>Booth, who killed him and made him a martyr before he could have had his ass torn out by radical republicans during congressional reconstruction
Yeah, reading Garfield's biography and that was something that surprised me (since I've always neglected American history, especially in that era, despite being American) was that Lincoln was a widely disliked figure, even among his own party, right up until he was assassinated.
>>976337
i dont get it either, this guy was a genuine dickhead
>>976337
It's because he had a very respectable idealism and passion for helping the less fortunate.
Of Course that didn't stop him from murdering tons of people and installing dictatorships that weren't even Socialist
/all
/thread
>>985362
t. buttblasted menziesfag
>>985465
He's associated with progressive values, simple as that. The left is just as uncritical as the right.
Now, if we look at his actual policies and his term in office, he's far from the best PM we've had, but he'd top the list for most educated adults in Sydney or Melbourne because of his social policies.
>>985419
>got a Tekken grill named after him
>>976337
tfw Klaus Barbie was instrumental in hunting down this Red trash
>>985391
He did, she was the genius behind that program to aid """""moderate""""" rebels that ended up funneling a bunch of arms to ISIS and Al Quaeda affiliates.
>>985298
>the majority of Presidents tried for three
Well that's just factually inaccurate.
>economic meltdown
Yeah, that also didn't happen. They had ward debts to deal with, but it was hardly an "economic meltdown." And that situation existed since well before his presidency, and his presidency resulted in policies that helped to pay off some of the debt. What the fuck is your source on this time period? Did some edgelord Zinnfag community college hack pollute your mind with this idiocy?
>first national bank literally set up to take care of Hamilton and his cronies
Sure, if by cronies you mean 'all of the northern manufacturing industry' and by take care of, you mean 'protect and aid until they could compete on the global market'
>division of Americans between federalists and democratic-republican outright caused by Washington's presidency
Sort of. This is arguably not his fault, his cabinet was filled with people from both, and he wanted them to work together and debate so that they could come up with good policy. The fact that they acted like children and refused to play nice with one another before and after he left, despite his specific request that they do so, is hardly his fault.
>So you admit he's overrated?
Well no shit sherlock, he's the one person you were correct about. Your reasoning was completely wrong, since while JFK and LBJ had similar policy goals, they had completely different approaches.
>Teddy
>Don't forget, economic meltdown
Oh, you mean that panic in 1907 that was caused by fluctuations in the money supply? Hmmm, I wonder why the money supply in New York was so unstable?
Well as it turns out, when you don't have a central bank, the money supply becomes very, very unstable. So yeah, small government sure did America a solid on that one. But as we have absolved TR of the majority of the blame, we can move on to other, more important things.
Continued in the next post:
>>986485
>McKinley and Taft did this.
Yeah, Roosevelt had nothing to due with it. It's not like he sent Dewey to take Manilla while Assistant SecNav, and he certainly didn't build up the Navy, the best method of force projection, nor could he possibly have laid the groundwork for Taft's dollar diplomacy and shoring up of US influence with the Roosevelt corollary, Big Stick diplomacy, and calls for the US to exrecise an international police power. No, the credit all goes to Taft and McKinley.
>Alienating Japan to the point that diplomatic relations between the U.S. and Japan never recovered
Apparently history ended in 1945. Who knew? Not me, that's for sure. But snarky takedowns of that retardedly absolute statement aside, there is no evidence to suggest that it had any major impact on US-Japanese relations. The real sticking point was that we wanted an open door policy, and the Japs wanted total dominance of all of east Asia. These competing goals were irreconcilable, which is what eventually led to the war.
>>985298
>the majority of Presidents tried for three
what?
