/his/
What was the greatest empire ever?
Not just military power and pure size, but also influence and culture.
Rule: The Empire has to have had at least two rulers.
Also the Byzantine Empire and the Roman Empire are separate.
>>973157
The answer is still the Roman Empire.
The human empire.
The United States of America.
Rome pretty handily wins
>>973174
The United States is neither united nor a state, anon.
>>973157
:^)
But anyways, nothing can compare to Rome and China, everything else, including Britain, is below those two. Maybe the Islamic caliphates, Abbasid or Ummayad, might fit in there, but I'm unsure as to whether it was Islam itself, or these polities that practiced it, that proved more influential.
>>973153
> Not just military power and pure size, but also influence and culture.
Athenian Empire then.
![548px-Vexilloid_of_the_Roman_Empire.svg[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/hl15FQB.png "548px-Vexilloid_of_the_Roman_Empire.svg[1].png")
>>973153
>but also influence and culture
If you add this it can be nothing else but the roman empire. How do you top defining the whole concept for the dominant world culture?
>Persian Empire
>Rome
>Tang Dynasty
Someone of those three, with Rome being clearly in the lead.
Christianity
>>973153
Does anyone have more like this
Pic related.
british empire, everyone else can go homu
>world language
>heavily influenced every nation on earth - taught them how to build and dress for instance
>invented most of everything
>USA
>biggest - inb4 buhbut it was an empty wasteland :(
>>973153
If you're going purely by military power it would be contemporary America or America about 20 years ago. If you don't consider America an empire the next closest would probably be the Mongol Empire?
Pure size is obvious Britain.
If you consider influence and culture then the Roman Empire or the Chinese Empire are the clear contenders it depends on if you consider an empire's influence to have ended once it died or not.
Personally the Roman Empire was the state that define the concept of Empire to begin with. It will always be the greatest in my mind, followed by Dynastic China.
ROMA
roman empire, duh
Western: Rome
Eastern: China
>>973507
which dynasty tho?
>>973522
I'm gonna go with Qin as they first set the trend of a unified China.
CHINA
>>973304
yes
>>973362
>If you're going purely by military power
Military power alone does not make a great empire
>next closest would probably be the Mongol Empire?
Broke apart soon after its founding
>Pure size is obvious Britain.
Yeah all these valuable african or australian deserts or the canadian wastelands. Impressive.,,,
>Personally the Roman Empire was the state that define the concept of Empire to begin with.
Pic related would obviously want to have a word with you
>>973522
Eastern Han, Tang, (Song for scientific/cultural) or Ming Dynasty.
Rome desu, but no one has been further ahead in history then america is compared to other world powers right now
>>973174
>United
>States
>America
Obviously Britain.
'Every modern country is the result of colonial-era imperialistic powers [Britain then]' - Hobsbawm.
>>973183
>>973362
>>973507
>>973581
How much is the Chinese goverment paying you?
>>973675
who?
>>973420
>Salt store
>Educated slaves
>>973608
>Not the Qing
>Bitch please
>>973592
The First Persian Empire was impressive and it certainly ranks up there as an empire in my opinion but it did not define the Western concept of Empire which we use to this day.
>Military power alone does not make a great empire
You're right yep.
>Broke apart soon after its founding
Also correct, Mongols really didn't have much going for them besides their initial military dominance.
>Yeah all these valuable african or australian deserts or the canadian wastelands. Impressive.,,,
Eh impressive or not its land area mate.
>>973691
Qing will always be tainted by all the shit throughout the 19th century and for ruling china at a time when it was/had been fallen far behind the west.
>>973714
The early Qing were fantastic rulers. I feel like you discount the importance of the 'winding river of Chinese dynasties', the late Ming were just as bad, as were the last rulers of any Chinese dynasty.
Plus it wasn't really the Qing's fault that China fell behind. They were simply conservative and didn't like changing what had worked for years. The issue was their own hegemony in the East, their hubris was their downfall. The Europeans had been at constant war with each other thanks to the nobility's need to leave their mark upon history. Technological development naturally thrived in an environment in which everyone was vying for an advantage over their neighbors.
>>973708
>but it did not define the Western concept of Empire which we use to this day.
Can you extend on that? Because I always thought the Achaemenid Empire did excactly that: Being the first "modern" empire, what with their effective administration, central government, the role of the satrapies and so forth.
Isnt that what made them different from previous empires like the Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians?
Seleucid Empire
>>973183
>Islamic caliphates
>potentially higher than Britain
Absolutely horrendous opinion and post. Even claiming China is incomparable to Britain is fairly absurd, considering Britain literally changed the world with the Industrial Revolution. Not much actually left China/East Asia other than trade goods.
>>973770
It sort of was their fault.
The Qing saw itself as a Chinese dynasty, but felt the need to work extra hard to put a brave face against foreigners because they know that they are a foreign dynasty who ruled over an empire of a people not of their race.
But then it sort of isn't.
Also the Mistrust with Europeans was the fault of the Catholic Church. Read up on the Chinese Rites Controversy: basically Jesuits were successful in utilizing Confucianism and Chinese beliefs to teach Christianity but the Dominicans and Franciscans yelled BLASPHEMY. The ensuing religious fight engulfed the Europeans and their Catholic Chinese converts (numbering in the millions) led to riots in the streets, which resulted to the Pope taking the side of the Dominicans and Franciscans and sending a legate to the Chinese Emperor to end the Jesuit incorporation of Chinese rites.
To the Pope, this was nothing but a communication to another Monarch regarding catholic sectarian policy. To the Chinese, this was a serious breach of ettiquette as they took it that the Pope was ordering the Qing Emperor what to do. This alongside Catholic riots infuriated Kangxi that he ordered all Catholics out of China and a resumption of his daddy, Yongzheng's, anti-Catholic policies. Everything and Everyone European was suspect from this point on.
That said however, the Jesuits due to their integration into Chinese society and culture were still allowed at court, but they can't proselytize anymore and served merely as European Ambassadors to the Qingz. Qianlong loved the guys, famously had his portrait painted by an Italian Jesuit
>>973798
>He is an anglo.
Opinion discarded.
Foundational Empires > Any 19th Century Empire.
Your fucking national personification rides in Greco-Roman shit for gods sakes.
>>973854
I'm fucking Irish lad, so if anything I despise the British Empire, but that doesn't mean I am delusional about history. I'm not really denying the ultimate greatness of Rome, but to claim China or the fucking caliphates had more of an influence on the world/history is ridiculous.
There's a reason British gunboats shot their way up the Yangtze, and not Chinese junks up the Thames.
>>973775
The word Empire comes from the latin Imperium referring to magisterial power on behalf of the government. This term comes up in regards to the Roman Empire. The institution of the Roman emperor became essentially equal to that of early kings but because the Romans abhorred the idea of monarchy they instead created a new idea in that the Emperor was somehow a master that was beyond kings and that the Republic was still maintained at least in name under their rule. Due to the relative superiority of Rome in contrast to its neighbors Emperor came to mean a supreme ruler who stood as the world's master in European eyes.
European empires for centuries after the fall of Rome would only be able to claim that title by claiming descent from Rome which was viewed as the quintessential state. Our conception of Achaemenid Persia as an "Empire" as distinct from simply being a "Kingdom" is a modern convention given to Persia due to its overwhelming superiority in comparison to its neighbors but historical contemporaries would have found little difference between the King of Macedonia and the King of Persia except for the relative power of their states. (Yes the Persian King of Kings was a thing but that would be closer in idea to that of a "High King" instead of an "Emperor")
It is a very subtle distinction but overall it comes from the fact Europe is descended from the idea of Rome.
>>973153
Rome and Persia are pretty much top tier in terms of size, legacy, cultural impact, and glory.
>>974339
King of Kings in Persian literally means the same thing as Emperor in the literal context of the definition. Anyway Persians left an important legacy that influenced the Greeks and Macedonians which transferred to the Romans and later modern Europe:
>satraps
>checks and balances on rulers; royal agents supervising the legal actions of satraps
>secretaries providing documents and records of funds and revenue of any satraps or province
>royal road
>courier system
>cultural tolerance (okay Rome didn't do this)
>human rights declaration (Cyrus's proclamation at Babylon)
>>974339
>Our conception of Achaemenid Persia as an "Empire" as distinct from simply being a "Kingdom" is a modern convention given to Persia due to its overwhelming superiority in comparison to its neighbors but historical contemporaries would have found little difference between the King of Macedonia and the King of Persia except for the relative power of their states.
Except this is utterly incorrect. One of the reasons historians tend to coin the term of a "universal" or the first "global" empire is with the Achaemenid Empire. Because its not like the kingdoms of old which assimilated weaker states or nations and forced them to be like them.
The Persians kept their provinces, territories, and regions as semi-autonomous but otherwise still distinct areas. You know what differentiates an empire from a kingdom? An empire is a multi-ethnic multi-nation state. That's what the Persians were, that's what the Romans were, that's what the Mongols were and so on. We had Aramic as the language of administration and trade, Greek and Persian circulating as major court and regional languages.
So by any reasonable conclusion: the Achaemenid dynasty was a proper empire.
>multi-ethnic nation comprised of dozens up dozens of other kingdoms, provinces, and territories
>multiple languages
>globalized and unified across its land
>bound together by one head nation or authority
>lead by an absolute ruler
Sounds like a textbook empire to me.
>>973153
USA
>>974468
1. Did the word empire and the concept of an empire exist prior to the Roman Empire?
2. If it did not exist prior to the Roman Empire then the consideration of Achaemenid Persia as an empire must have been applied retroactively, yes or no?
You need to learn to read. I am not saying Achaemenid Persia was not an empire, I am saying Rome created the concept of Empire in European thought and this was then applied to Persia as it was due. Yes Persia was in many ways the first true empire but that does not mean the idea of empire in Western thought emerged from Persia.
>>974535
I never said anything about the European "concept" of empire in the first place regarding Rome or Persia. I was just addressing the fact your claim the concept was "retroactively" applied to the Persian empire after Rome was factually incorrect.
>>974557
I was just addressing the fact your claim the concept was "retroactively" applied to the Persian empire after Rome was factually incorrect.
Really? Then can you show me where historical sources from prior to Rome call Persia an empire?
>>973674
they do it for [spoiler]Flee[/spoiler]
>>973174
>>974503
This is the only correct answer.
>military power
The United States Armed Forces are the most powerful military force to ever exist.
>influence
Self-explanatory.
>culture
World culture is American culture. Not even Romans of their time could boast this.
t. not even an american
>>973420
>Can't stop Hannibal
should be
>MUH Ferrum Noricum
>>974573
>Behistun Inscription
>9) King Darius says: Ahuramazda has granted unto me this empire. Ahuramazda brought me help, until I gained this empire; by the grace of Ahuramazda do I hold this empire.
>>974688
>9. (1.24-26.) Darius the King says: Ahuramazda bestowed the kingdom upon me; Ahuramazda bore me aid until I got possession of this kingdom; by the favor of Ahuramazda I hold this kingdom.
http://www.avesta.org/op/op.htm
Try again.
>>974599
>american """"""""""""""""""""culture""""""""""""""""""""
>>975217
>LMAO XD those Americans have no culture at all! XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
>>973841
Don't forget how the Qing fucking adored clocks and Kangxi was a massive fan of European architecture (building the Yuan Ming Yuan in baroque style).
The rites blasphemy, while a notable occurrence in Euro-Chinese relations, don't have anything to do with the point that the Qing weren't to blame for China's falling behind Europe.
Also I wouldn't agree that the Qing were conscious of their Manchu status at this point. They left their warrior origins behind after two generations and were thoroughly sinicized. The Han chinese have a tendency, if you look through the backgrounds of the dynasties, to be conquered but in turn culturally conquer their new overlords.
It wasn't the Qing's fault for the great divergence. The foundations for propelling the European states far ahead of the rest of the world were laid in the prior centuries to their rule.
Not to mention the difference in geography, the European love of trade (which made one a lower citizen in China) and the greater access to coal and raw materials in Europe (a factor of geography but still highly notable).
>>975331
Not to mention the gentlemanly capitalist theory which ratifies the historiographical argument that the opium wars were based solely upon trade considerations discussed in parliament.
I actually have links to the parliamentary records which record that the MPs there, as men of commerce or their representatives, actively discuss promoting and protecting the opium trade with China.
>>975331
>Also I wouldn't agree that the Qing were conscious of their Manchu status at this point
They were. While they weren't going WE SEPARATE FROM U GUYS :DDD like the Mongols, they are aware of their Non-Han background through the name they used (Aisin-Gioro) and the Manchu Script they used alongside the traditional Hanzi.
But they didn't wield this as some sort of cultural superiority over the Chinese. Manchuness was quite a baby identity when it formed, and while it was forming they were already conquering China. So one could say the conquest came first before the identity.
>>973153
U
S
A
>>973686
Northern Ireland
>>975367
Aside from the language, the distinctive haircut and the 'warrior discipline' (which died off toward later, sinicised rulers) there wasn't a great deal that separated them from the Chinese. As you aptly put, the conquest came before identity. This identity was also watered down as time went by and mongols, Han Chinese and other minorities joined the banners of the Manchu army (admittedly through intermarriage and slight relations, but still).
Slight nuances of Qing identity aside, my point stands that the great divergence (and the resultant opium war, arrow war and years of unequal treaties) weren't their fault in any way.
Rhodeisa
>>975538
>United
>States
>of America
>>975217
But, americans DO have a culture...
It's litterally influencing everyone around the globe, from the music we listen to and the television we watch etc etc
Denying this is absolutely idiotic
>>976693
A coalition of fifty states under a federal government in northern america each with it's own government and culture
>>974599
>The United States Armed Forces are the most powerful military force to ever exist.
Lets try and put this in perspective
>>974599
>t. not even an american
Lel, this american doesnt even dare to say he is american
>>973174
The American empire itself is derivative of the Roman Empire. It only proves that the Roman Empire was the most influential and far-reaching empire in history. In 1000 years, people will still be reading of Rome. America will be a footnote.
>>978106
I'm sure they said the same thing about the British Empire
or the spanish
or French
or German
or Japan
>>978106
Nah it's a derivative of the british empire and I'm pretty sure rome and us governments are completely different from each other.
Besides the US has completely outshined Rome's level of influence in the eye's of everyone around the globe. Do you really think someone from ghana or saudi arabia gives a fuck about some long dead empire based in europe?
>>978101
Okay...even discounting the nuclear option, the American armed forces are in terms of raw firepower the most powerful armed services in the world right now. The Pentagon retains what's called a "two and a half wars" policy to this day, which is to say that the American army is built to be able to fight two major wars (one in the Atlantic and one in the Pacific) while simultaneously still being able to deal with a small brushfire war.
The largest air force in the world is the United States Air Force. The *second* largest air force in the world is the United States Navy's air arm.
The American Navy is about as large as the next fifteen largest navies *combined*. No navy in the history of the world could compete with it. A single modern US aircraft carrier projects so much force that it can practically fight a naval war by itself, though it never has to due to, again, the US Navy being overwhelmingly the largest. Speaking of which, America has nearly as many aircraft carriers as the rest of the world combined - 19 commissioned, compared to the rest of the world's 20 (and some of those, like the Thai's, really shouldn't count).
America is one of only three nations on the planet with force projection ability - that is, the ability to fight a war very far from its home turf. If Venezuela did something to piss off Russia, Russia would find it difficult if not outright impossible to put boots on the ground in Venezuela. Conversely, as we've seen over the past several decades, America has no problem putting boots on the ground in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, or anywhere else at its choosing, and fighting and maintaining a war there.
So, yeah. The United States Armed Forces are the most powerful military force to have ever existed.
Is it true that 44% of the Earth's population was under the Archaemenid Empire at its peak? That's crazy.
>>978106
>The American empire itself is derivative of the Roman Empire. It only proves that the Roman Empire was the most influential and far-reaching empire in history.
>>978150
Crazy for it's time yes, but not so impressive these days
>>973304
>>973174
Winner
Hands down
>>973153
Empires are never great. They are by definition exploitative.
>>978094
Lack of culture doesn't make a culture
>>973183
>China
>empire
End this meme
>>978422
>culture only means high 19th century culture or dancing around a goat in traditional folk clothes hurr durr I'm a gigantic retard and don't realize that 99% of culture I consume today is American-made or influenced and I'm currently posting on an American website
>>978422
I'm pretty sure you have know idea what culture means anon
>>978427
China doesn't really qualify as
>HOLY
>ROMAN
>EMPIRE
Since it did manage to be a centralized state.
When it was decentralized, it meant the country is split and parties were fighting to be king of the hill. No Chinese balkanization ended with two dynasties being OK with each other's existence.
>>978567
>Transcendentalism
>Robert Frost
>Guilded Era
>Art Deco
>America has no culture
>>978567
How is it a shallow parody of someone else's culture anon?
>>978567
Funny, you can make the same argument for every country with relations to the roman empire
>>978567
>americans are uncultured barbaric swine
This meme is literally 200 years stale
>>978692
yanky doodle dandy detected
>mfw he puts a feather in his cap and calls it Macaroni
>>973174
But anon we plant seed of demoracy and shitz and remove communits because they are so anti freedom.Canada and Mexico are still free state with democracy .We don't do empire shit like those Brits did.
>>978748
People with dead memes detected
>>978189
William wasn't really French, he was Norman-Danish, which although Normandy was a subordinate of France, would you consider a guy from Puerto Rico an American?
