Ask and discuss.
Best ruler?
Worst ruler?
Discussing Normand and Outremer history also welcome.
Best: Napoleon
Worst: Maximilien Robespierre
>let's murder all of France's intellectuals and scientists
>nothing can go wrong
>>969922
I'm still pissed about that.
Lavoisier's death lead to the stagnation of the field of Chemistry for roughly half a century, if not more.
Was Louis XIV actually a good ruler? Did he deserve the title of "The Sun King"?
Why did French people did not breed during Industralisation era?
>>969977
The stagnation of French population is one of the greatest tragedies of the XIXth century, and one of the greatest mysteries.
Nobody really knows. But the economic and societal impact of the Napoleonic Wars are the biggest culprit.
>>969948
feels bad man, feels bad.
>>969950
He was a tyrant
Much more than Napoleon and other rulers memistically called as such
>Best ruler?
Phillip Augustus in military terms.
St Louis in terms of virtue of character.
>Worst ruler?
Robespierre or Mitterrand
Thinly veiled attempt of getting /his/ to do your homework
>>969855
>Best Ruler
Louis IX or Charlemagne probably
>Worst Ruler
The Directory was probably the worst government
>>971455
>Charlemagne
he was german
>>971580
Not this shit again
>>971607
but he was, even wiki says so
germanic = german
>>971613
>Dude lmao, Italians and French are German now
>>971617
>Italians and French
>germanic
Germanics ruled over them, Charlemagne is a prime example.
>>971621
>Germanics ruled over them
>Unironically believing Italians and French are Romans and Gauls
How hard did France get fucked by the Black Plague?
>>971632
The population of France in 1300 was higher than its population in 1700.
>>969977
Because it hardly industrialized at all. It was at a pretty stable population.
>>971631
Is it really that hard to accept that Karl der Grosse is german?
Best
Philip Augustus
Worst
Louis XVI
France had a pretty solid run of 500 years unbroken monarchy with good leaders
>>969855
Why was the french military so amazing for so long ,and then suddenly so shit?
>>969922
>Robespierre
>ruler
erm
>>971798
It isn't really shit modern day, they are the 5th or 6th largest military power currently. But they did pretty bad in WW2 and Indochina
>>970052
>Louis XIV
>A tyrant
Are you German or something ?
>>969855
>Best ruler
Louis XIV
>Worst ruler
Francois Hollande
Napoleon has the swag though.
how was Richelieu?
>Best
Philip Augustus, Louis XI, Edouard Herriot
>Worst
The Directory was indeed the worst. Same for the National Convention under the Gironde and the Thermidorians
Louis XV was pretty bad too
>>972432
One of the most efficient statesman in French history
>>971671
He may be, but Charlemagne isn't, you fucking twat.
>>972386
>Hollande
Are you a 12 year old ?
>>969950
His great success was finishing Richelieu binding of the nobility, but along the way, many wars pretty much for nothing but petty glory.
At the end of his reign, he wrote letters to his successor where it was somehow "I kinda fucked it up bad, don't fucked it up bad like I did".
There was something like a plague every 10 years or so during the 1650-1700, then a massive winter, but nope, Big Louis wanted to go for more war, against more enemies.
So yeah, Glory, super long reign, Versailles (part of it went to the bankers to pay another war), but in the end, the people didn't really see the Greatness of it all.
>>972745
The revocation of the Édit de Nantes also crippled Frances economy while strengthening Prussias
>>970052
None of those were in any way tyrants.
>>969977
The real question is why did all Westerners stop breeding?
Whatever happened all across the first world happened in France earlier.
Best rulers:
1. Philip Augustus
2. Napoleon
3. De Gaulle
Worst rulers:
1. Charles the Mad
2. Hollande
3. Louis XVI
>>972745
>many wars pretty much for nothing but petty glory.
How about loads of new land?
>>972784
The revocation of the edict of Nantes restored the unity of France.
Reminder that in Huguenot-ruled cities Catholics were being persecuted, the Huguenots regularly revolted against the king, and in La Rochelle they even handed the city to the English. The Huguenots wouldn't have been satisfied until they were fully independent.
>>972801
Absolute monarchy existed in France since Philip Augustus. And tyranny is not a synonym of absolute monarchy, or they wouldn't be different words now would they. Tyranny means illegitimate rule, against the will of the people. Louis XIV was perfectly legitimate and had the support of his people.
Philip the Fair was the best
>>972796
>3. Louis XVI
That's a poor choice
Barras, Louis VI, Louis XV or Charles IX for example were far worse
>>971666
Satan can't be wrong about that, right?
>csq tu ne vivras pas le retour a la monarchie
>>972831
Louis XVI's weakness and incompetence caused the fall of the monarchy and a generation of bloody wars leading to the end of French hegemony over Europe. What the fuck can be worse than that?
Louis XV was rather good, and so was Louis VI (though mostly thanks to Suger).
>>972796
>Hollande
Hes not even the worst in the fifth Republic
>>972846
t. de Gaulle
>>972889
lol, are you Breton or something?
>>972895
Lol no he's shit but Mitterand was 10 times worse
>>969855
The worst ruler is louis XV, the youngest ruler of france
>>972899
Mitterrand was the last real president, who understood the regal position he was occupying, and the last to have a vision, a sense of history. Everyone since Chirac has been a glorified accountant.
>>972910
What is this meme? Is it because of the Seven Years War?
Louis XV was God-Emperor of Mankind tier compared to Louis XVI.
>>972912
t. fonctionnaire
>>972912
>muh grands projets
>>972916
That makes no sense at all.
Anyway 5th republic presidents power ranking:
1. De Gaulle
2. Mitterrand
3. Sarkozy
4. Pompidou
5. Chirac
6. Giscard
7. Hollande
Damn before writing this I didn't realise how shit they were.
>>972930
Do you realize that if France is such in a shitty situation is because Mitterand bought a shit ton of firms and fucked over the private industries? If someone wants to build a buiseness nowadays they go elsewhere because of the laws he made
>>972930
t. De Gaulle
>>972930
>Giscard 6th
>>972944
No, they go elsewhere because the laws in France change every few months so as a business owner you have no fucking way of planning ahead. Not because of laws made in the 80s that have all radically changed since.
>>972913
>lost Canada
>crashed government finances with no survivors
>discredited absolute monarchy but also didn't bother to reform it
>made a treaty with Prussia so stupid it became a proto-meme
>generally did nothing to help develop the economy
He did get Lorraine with basically no effort though, I have to give him that.
>>972951
You think he was worse than Hollande?
>>972958
Almost everything you said is really about the Seven Years War, and I don't see how he discredited absolute monarchy, in fact he brought it to its full conclusion by abolishing the Parliament. Of course then his retard grandson reestablished it.
>>972955
Are you kidding? The syndicats in France go fucking mad if you dare even brush the buiseness law. We see that now with El Khomri's law
>>972967
>We see that now with El Khomri's law
>it's another "students and young adults think they matter" episode
end me, what the fuck is wrong with this country
>>972930
>Sarkozy 3rd
ayy
>>972967
You need to keep up with the news more, business regulations, taxation, social constributions, all that shit changes all the fucking time, several times per government. Ever heard of the loi Macron? Or the second loi Macron? Just to name some of the most recent ones.
The unions are completely corrupt and only do things in their own political interest. The most criticised aspect of this new law (the limitation of reparations for wrongful firings) was already in a bill several months ago but didn't pass for technical reasons, and back then it went completely unnoticed. Now even that was taken away, but UNEF and other union leaders see this as a career building moment for themselves like the CPE faggotry was for the UNEF leaders 10 years ago.
>>972958
>He did get Lorraine with basically no effort though, I have to give him that.
That was pure luck, if Charles VI had a male heir things would go different.
>>972821
based, too bad he went against the most powerful organisation at the time (and one of the most powerful currently)
>>973316
Why too bad, he won.
inb4 De Molay's magic curse
>>973373
You don't mess with an organisation like the knights templar and not expect retaliation, and that's exactly what he got. Although he probably didn't know it, the templars held a powerful magick tradition (wicca is a very crude imitation of the templar's practices) and thus Molay's curse held a lot of weight.
>>973398
Ook merci pour ta contribution
>>972888
>Louis XV was rather good
It's Louis XV's fault that the monarchy, the finances, and the government were in the shithole right when Louis XVI ascended the throne. Louis XV's absolute ruination of France is what caused Louis XVI to be unable to fix it.
Somebody tell me about Louis-Philippe?
What was he like? Was he popular? Was he competent? Why was he liked? Why did he fall and lead to the Second French Empire
>>972804
>Catholic country
>Catholics persecuted
Wow, cuck much?
>>973649
The crown's debt had been increasing steadily for two centuries, Louis XIV and Louis XVI both did more to increase it than Louis XV.
Everything else was going fine. Louis XV was popular, and he achieved fully absolute monarchy. It's Louis XVI who fucked everything up. If he hadn't reestablished Parliament he wouldn't have needed its approval to tax the nobility, and even that only turned into such an issue because he was such a weak pathetic piece of shit who had to call the fucking Estates General for help.
>>974345
They were Protestant ruled cities. People think the edict of Nantes was just religious tolerance, but in reality it gave the Protestant faction de facto independence. Revoking it is the best thing Louis XIV ever did.
>>974352
>Louis XV was popular
At the beginning of his reign, sure. At the end of his reign, he was hated at best. He drained the treasury with the Seven Years War, drained it with his mistresses, and let royal spending go unchecked. He stopped trying to make any social improvements for the people years before he died. He was so hated that you're hard pressed to find any contemporary pamphlets or illustrations after his death that mourn him--they're all engravings about the promise of Louis XVI and his wife and the thankfulness that there is a new king.
>Everything else was going fine
If you were a rich noble, yes it was. That's why they didn't like Louis XVI, who wanted to tax the nobility, who wanted to cut court spending, who wanted to eliminate positions which were functionally useless, who wasn't moved by flattery, etc.
He re-established the Parlement because it's what the people wanted. It made them feel like there were checks and balances to the power of the king. Sadly, the Parlement was run by nobles who had every reason to oppose Louis XVI's reforms, and made it a living hell to try to get changes done. But if he had banned the Parlement again, then he would have been considered tyrannical.
>>974272
>>974741
IIRC, Louis XV also had the chance to annex the Austrian Netherlands, but refused because he wanted to look good to the other European courts. It was the first time since the Battle of the Golden Spurs that France owned the richest county in Europe, and probably the dumbest thing ever done in the history of France.
>>974358
>tried to run away
What is wrong with attempting to flee to a stronghold in the countryside when you and your family are being threatened daily with death, and you can't govern your country because you are threatened with murder if you don't do what the rabble you mentioned want you to do?
>>975353
>travailler pour le roi de Prusse
Though it actually made a lot of sense
>>969977
Spiritual death after the revolutionaries destroyed French civil society.
America is experiencing the same now, like Russia experienced at the 90s.
>>975365
if you fail to deal with the situation at hand and decide to flee to the sworn enemy like the coward you are to beg them to invade your own homeland; then at the very least dont let your sorry ass get caught
According to this thread good ruling = centralizing the state.
Not that the French know any better, anyway. Not even in Russia you find such a totalitarian disposition.
>>972930
Sarkozy was worse than Hollande.
>>975418
What are you even talking about? He was fleeing to Montmedy, which is in France, so that he could gather his loyal troops around him and fix what the revolutionaries has been fucking up through their continued threats of violence. He wasn't fleeing to another country to beg them to invade his homeland. He wouldn't even take a quicker and safer route to Montmedy because it meant he'd have to cross the border and back. He would not even summon the Austrian troops over the border to help him escape once they were caught in Varennes because he didn't want foreign troops (or his French troops) attacking French citizens.
>>972801
It's funny that some people equate monarchy meant the ruler could do whatever they want when they want, when this would more accurately relfect the democratic rulers of today.
>>975430
For some reason people remember the atrocities others do against you when you are weak much better than they do remember whatever atrocities the state do against you while it is strong.
Also >Muh nationalism
>>975479
>>975430
This is why Louis XIV and many of the "great" monarchs of France can't be considered so: their continued concentration of power into their own able hands meant it was hoisted into their successors or usurpers less able hands, thus creating chaos where society once had a safety net in the church and the independent communities and what not.
>>975453
Montmedy is directly on the border with the Austrian Netherlands, were just at that time the austrian army had crushed the independence movement there. Of course he wanted to go to them. What else would he want in some small border town?
>>975479
>implying the Vendee Genocide was not justified
>>975523
>implying the Vendee Genocide was not justified
You wanna say that again, heathen?
>>975523
You know, that's why I hate France. First they talk of the "rights of men", of "liberty, equality and fraternity", then they massacre Catholic peasants and pretend that's not wrong.
Then they talk about reason and kill intellectuals and scientits, and burn monasteries and abbeys, destroying thousands of books. Much is talked about the Church destroying classical knowledge, but there is no evidence of that. There is plenty of evidence of revolutionary mobs destroying medieval archives, though (which is one of the reasons why there are so few sources about the period).
France is such a shithole that their best leader in the past millennium is a guy they now hate. They don't deserve better. They deserve petty tyrants and totalitarian murderers, like the communists of the Liberation, who spoke of "freedom" and "democracy" at the same time they murdered anyone to the right of Lavrenty Beria during the "savage purges".
>>975625
>France is such a shithole that their best leader in the past millennium is a guy they now hate
Who?
Napoleon the third?
>>975664
Philippe Petain
>>975673
Just curious, how was he their best?
>>975704
At least until 1942, he was the only French ruler since Phillip Augustus that didn't try to concentrate more power in the hands of the central government, instead he gave such powers back to civil society, based on the economic philosophy of corporatism.
>>974741
Again, spending was absolutely nothing new, Louis XVI spent more on the American war, and what are you talking about "social reforms", this isn't the 1930s, the only reform Louis XVI did was hand back the power to the nobility by reestablishing Parliament.
>>975365
He was betraying his own country, and wrote to the Austrians begging for them to invade.
>>975430
Yes and?
According to you good ruling = letting the country dissolve into anarchy?
>>975434
lol no. At least under Sarkozy France wasn't a complete joke internationally, and he wasn't so spectacularly shit at handling the economy.
>>972804
He lost most of the land to a coalition.
>>977203
Nigga look at all this orange shit on the map (and Lorraine was pretty much him as well).
reminder that liberals are equally despicable as the monarchists
>>971665
>>971665
>The population of France in 1300 was higher than its population in 1700.
>>977211
compared to what he had pre-coalition wars and the amount of lives expended that's hardly worth the gains of his reign.
>>977241
What are you even talking about? Belgium? He never annexed that.
These are the most important conquests of any king since the Middle Ages, both in size and strategically as they finally gave France borders that weren't so vulnerable to invasion.
>>972951
>>>Giscard 6th
this. Giscard is the worst of all
>>972888
We lost our colonies under Louis XV, tho.
The only reason Louis XIV was able to get away with all the shit he did is because France and Sweden won the Thirty Years' War and while Spain and Austria just had the shit kicked out of them for 30 straight years.
>>977333
That alliance with Austria worked out perfectly.
>>977179
>what are you talking about "social reforms"
>the only reform Louis XVI did
Just some of Louis XVI's reforms:
>abolished death penalty for deserters and certain other crimes
>began the process of abolishing inhumane methods of execution
>attempted to totally abolish the corvee (refused by parlement, but he did manage to cut the corvee's length)
>abolished indentured servitude
>prison reform which required all prisons to maintain standards for prisoner's mental and physical well-being
>hospital reform which required hospitals which received relief from the State to maintain health standards and provide care for the poor
>abolished torture
>granted more freedom of the press
>granted civil rights and protections to Jewish people and Protestant people
>extended public relief for the disabled and elderly who could not work
>reduced the number of paid positions at court which were considered non-essential or weren't directly linked to the household of the royal family
plus more.
No, he wasn't able to massively overhaul the tax system which kept the burden on the poor or solve the financial and social inequality in France. But to say he didn't do any reforms is incorrect. Louis XVI was in a terrible position from the start. Louis XV did not prepare him for his role as king at all. Louis XVI inherited a corrupt, dissolute kingdom that was already ruled by the court. He did what he thought would please the people, which is bring back an institution that they viewed as guarding their interests, even when in reality they were guarding their own. By the time this was evidence to him, it was too late: if he would have banished the Parlement after they refused his reforms, he would be the ultimate tyrant. But by the time he took the throne, there was no authority in the French king anymore. His personality--second guessing his own opinions, not wanting to be viewed as a tyrant so much that he refused to put his foot down and force things through--didn't help.
>>977183
>king and family regularly threatened with death
>king threatened for performing actions that the new constitution guarantees he is free to perform without fear of reprisal
>palace is deliberately guarded by people hostile to the royal family
>king and family refused to have freedom of movement, which the new constitution guarantees to everyone
>king is threatened into signing and agreeing with things he doesn't agree with, because of the threat of physical violence
>b-b-but why would he ask for outside help?
Greatest French rulers:
1. Philip Augustus
2. Richelieu
3. Napoleon
4. De Gaulle
5. Charlemagne
6. Suger
7. Clovis
8. Charles Martel
9. Philip the Fair
10. Saint Louis
11. Odo of Paris
12. Louis XI
>>977427
>Charlemagne
>French
Charlemagne was a Frankish prince. He came from the Rhineland and spoke a Germanic language.
>>977479
How does any of this contradict that he was French? You even said he was a Frankish prince.
>>977479
>>Charlemagne
>>French
>He was French and he came from France.
... thanks for clarifying that I guess?
>>971455
>The Directory was probably the worst government
wrong. Directory is severely underrated. Bourbon Restoration, interwar Third Republic, Second Republic, Vichy France July Monarchy or the Fourth Republic rank worse (or about equal)
>>975625
This. France is shit
>>970006
>>971666
>>975417
Birth Rates were slowing down already in the 18th century before the revolution. It worried the French kings just as much as republicans at the end of the 19th century that it was low because a tenet of mercantalism or just enlightened absolutism was a large, healthy and productive population, not to mention a steady suuply of young men for the military. Anyway, the reason, so i've heard, for the low birth rate was because the "pulling out" method first became fashionable in the Royal court and then spread throughout the country so farmers could realize the economic benefits of having less children to have to support or divide up the inheritance. I have a 19th century book on France I'm reading that has a section on this that I havent gotten to yet but when I get to it maybe I'll greentext it here later.
>>972964
> Parliament
you mean parlement? parliament=/parlement, or the law courts of france which were chaired by aristocrats who purchased its offices. cause if not this is anachronistic considering that it was called the estates general (which =/= parliament) and because the last estates general was called in 1618, so to ban it meant nothing whatsoever.
>>973649
7 years war was a total shit but
>>974352
has a point when he says the debt was increasing for a long time already. Louis XVI also increased the debt massively by supporting the American revolution. It was the debt from this conflict which more than anything caused things to go downhill for the financial situation.
>>977595
Nigga parliament is the English word for parlement.
>>977605
not at all they're totally separate. parlement has a distinct meaning in french history that is not equivalent to the english parliament whatsoever.
>>977605
If you cant even bother to use google, don't post on /his/
>>977620
well I take if back after a quick google search some dictionaries say the words are interchangeable while others are silent on the matter (the encylopedias for example). but when I read French history books they usually use "parlement" to distinguish it from the english body.
>>971666
It was actually very industrialized and progressive.
>>977571
I realize that I implied here that the method was "spread" purposely by propaganda or something. on the contrary, farmers adopted birth control on their own because they realized its value
>>977571
>then spread throughout the country so farmers could realize the economic benefits of having less children to have to support or divide up the inheritance.
they could not do this before this trendy method of pulling out?
>>977605
In fact, a "parlement" in these times is a courthouse, not a parliament. But today, the french "parlement" is a parliament.
>>977547
THERMIDOR LEAVE
>>977227
>that population of ireland
>>979484
Ok so i skipped ahead in my book to the section on birth control. Posting the pages for interested anons curious about France's peculiar demographic slowdown
>>979612
>>979616
>>979646
>>979649
>>979656
Great expansion
>>979696
>>977227
>ireland
I'm astounded by how little history you guys even know. You FUCKERS don't even know about France's best king.
I present to you King Henry IV (Also known as "Good King Henry")
>Ended the Wars of Religion with the Edict of Nantes
>Made the Spanish and Hapsburgs fuck off
>Stabilized France
>As king, he adopted policies and undertook projects to improve the lives of all subjects, which made him one of the country's most popular rulers ever.
>He ruled with "weapon in hand and arse in the saddle"
>So good, it took 12 attempts to assassinate him.
"If God keeps me, I will make sure that no peasant in my realm will lack the means to have a chicken in the pot on Sunday!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_France
Shit is interesting yo
France seems to be the big bad guy of European history
Every now and then, everyone would gang up on them
Basically, they were what Germany was in the two WWs but for centuries
