So why exactly did the bolshevists murder the Tsarist family?
Surely it was not out of pure bloodlust, it must have been a calculated act on their part.
Could it be possible that the soviets realized the importance of people as symbols in shaping domestic perceptions and tried to eradicate the whole collective folk memory of the russian people because of this so as to prepare the way for "new bolshevist man" going forward - A sort of iconoclasm so to speak?
Also why are other soviet crimes and genocidal mass atrocities such as the holodmor so ignored? Yagoda and his henchmen killed over 30 million ukrainians only mere years before WW2 began yet virtually no one has ever heard of this guy let alone seen his picture, could allied victors' justice and omission of facts in the historical narrative also have played a role in this?
>>966486
>So why exactly did the bolshevists murder the Tsarist family?
Revenge for 4000+ years of blue blood tyranny.
>>966486
Because you dont leave figures for your opposition to rally around you moron
Hey, haven't had this thread for a while. Good on you for actually providing some discussion points, and not just making a support thread for nonces who like tugging it to the fantasy of heroically sweeping in and rescuing the princesses like what usually happens.
>>966486
Deny those wishing to restore the tsar a person to unite behind and kill any legitimate heirs. Killing the tsar and their family is sign of weakness not strength,
>>966486
>Yagoda and his henchmen killed over 30 million Ukrainians only mere years before WWII began
Marxism is pure lust for blood and sex behind a facade of pseudo-science.
>>966505
>>966505
Well spoken, comrade! Clearly killing all those millions of innocent ukrainian farmers was a visionary act. Btw this genocide never happened! My uni professor told me so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUKQIlHu3tk
Why did the white army lose? WW2 could have been averted if they had won
>>966526
I'm not questioning that there was a famine, I am saying the 30 million number is retarded. 3-12 million are rational estimates.
>>966486
>>966594
>I can't name any Soviet-era intellectuals so there must not have been any
>>966629
>Soviet
>intellectuals
This is an oxymoron.
Without the "fascist" german expertise and scientists/inventions they stole after WW2 they wouldn't even have gotten into space in the first place LOL
Real question is why was Alexander the 2nd killed? There's nothing cool about having 3 bombers to take out a man who helped free the serfs
They were LARPing the French revolution and got carried away
>>966526
Wait so Fedoras are Pro Feminist now?
It was less because they were worried about a rallying point and more that they wanted to horrify the enemy with their brutality, and show everyone (their own side included) that there was no turning back. Once you slaughter an entire family, politically useless women included, you can't go back.
Trotsky:
>The severity of the summary justice showed the world that we would continue to fight on mercilessly, stopping at nothing. The execution of the Tsar's family was needed not only in order to frighten, horrify, and dishearten the enemy, but also in order to shake up our own ranks to show that there was no going back.
>>966648
You Think the upper class wanted the serfs free?
>>966526
I'm so confused. So are fedoras associated with Marxism now? Maymays evolve too fast these days for me to keep up
>>966701
Stated reasons and actual reasons are not the same thing. Wiping out the whole royal family is standard practice and self-evidently good sense when taking over a monarchy
>>966486
probably the primary reason was to destroy opposition morale.
monarchists and other whites rallied behind the name of the Tsar even in captivity in hopes of restoring the Romanov's to power. The Allied powers also had an interest in putting Nicholas back on the throne to continue pressure on Germany's eastern front, as well as keep a western-friendly regime in Russia.
The Reds accomplished 2 things in killing the family, they ensured that no Romanov was alive to take back the throne in the event that they lose, so at the very least, the monarchy dies forever.
The other was to destroy White Army morale and remove a rallying point for enemies of the Reds. And it worked in that regard, with the Romanov's removed, many monarchists and other whites simply gave up with their main goal of reinstalling the Tsar now crushed, and causing further divides within White ranks over where to go from there strategically.
>>966495
Memes
>>966498
>murdered the children and women as well
Hilarious
>>966503
See above
>>966662
Kys my man
>>966995
>>murdered the children and women as well
Are you retarded? Children will grow up and women will have sons and there had been women in Russian throne.
Murdering all Royal family is what you do when you overthrow monarchy. I can't think of any revolution that it didn't go that way except Turkish one.
>>966873
>Wiping out the whole royal family is standard practice
Not in Western European revolutions. It was standard to kill the king, yes, and common though not officially accepted to dispose of male heirs, who could pose potential threats later on. But there's a reason why the execution of the queen and the king's sister during the first French Revolution was considered so shocking by even certain sects of revolutionaries, to say nothing of everyone else in Europe at the time: women and children were meant to be exiled or imprisoned indefinitely, at worst, never killed.
also
>Stated reasons and actual reasons are not the same thing.
>Trotsky literally spells out why they had to do it
>BUT THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY WHY THEY DID IT
okay buddy
>>966995
>murdered the children and women as well
Of course they did, for what possible reason would they not? Any blood relation is a potential figurehead, even the tsarina would have a degree of legitamecy
>>967000
I'm gonna guess you're referring to all the monarchist to monarchist revolutions. There seems to be a key difference here, but I'm having trouble putting my sickle on it.
>>966999
>Are you retarded? Children will grow up and women will have sons and there had been women in Russian throne.
>There had been women in Russian throne
There hadn't been women on the Russian throne since the 18th century. In the case of Catherine, who ruled as an empress in her own right rather than a regent as other women had, she only came to power through a political coup--she was not considered the natural successor.
And in any case, the succession laws were changed in 1797 (so well over 100 years before the Romanovs were executed) to only allow the succession to pass to women if all legitimate male members of the family were dead. In addition to this, any children born to Imperial women would not be considered eligible unless their husband was a member of a royal house and had an equivalent rank to the wife. The fact that there were many male Romanovs who had successfully fled the country meant that the daughters had no dynastic claim, and their children would have no claim unless the daughters had happened to marry other royals with an equivalent rank to their own. And any army attempting to reinstate a Romanov rule would have absolutely wanted a solid dynastic claim to back them up, because you need the support of a good chunk of the people in a revolution, and the people as a general rule only support the "natural" successors and not some random with no real claim paraded around as a rallying point. (See: Jane Grey)
>Murdering all Royal family is what you do when you overthrow monarchy. I can't think of any revolution that it didn't go that way except Turkish one.
>I can't think of any revolution that it didn't go that way except Turkish one.
all the French Revolutions
English Civil War
Second Mexican Empire
Japan's colonization of Korea
Chinese Revolution of 1912
etc.
It was abnormal to kill the entire royal family.
>>967004
>first French Revolution
>monarchist to monarchist
leave /his/ please and thank you
>>967066
>all those dead royals
Cromwell would've been a better example
Why does 4chan always have a boner on Romanovs?
>>967171
saving royal pussy and getting thank you pussy x5 rolled in with an opportunity to shit talk commies
>>967062
>people as a general rule only support the "natural" successors
being children of tzar seems to me like being natural successor, succession laws can be changed. Situation and authority of ruler in England and Russia was incomparable. And Russia had bad experience with troublesome claimants - see False Dmitriys.
Whole execution was rather rash panic act than calculated statement. There was serious threat they might be freed by advancing Czechoslovak Legions.
>>966486
Allies need Soviets to fight Hitler.
>>966486
>why did russians kills people
wew who knows
>>966995
>murdered the children and women as well
It's a monarchic dynasty you clueless nigger, of course all family members will be involves since being a monarch gets passed around the family
>>966701
>and more that they wanted to horrify the enemy with their brutality, and show everyone (their own side included) that there was no turning back. Once you slaughter an entire family, politically useless women included, you can't go back.
This.
>>967085
Only three dead members of the Bourbon royal family, and the death of the two women (queen and king's sister) divided revolutionaries.
>>966863
Fedoras are whatever you don't like.
>>966539
>WW2 could have been averted if they had won
I'm almost too afraid to ask, but how do you figure?
>>966539
Reds were supported by the likes of the Warburgs. Large payments were made to Lenin, Trostky and other 'revolutionaries'. The Russian Revolution, like the Chinese one, was propagandized later as a popular uprising, but in reality it was nothing of the sort.
The Whites had no such support. Although if I recall correctly the British supported the Whites with aid, but clearly it wasn't enough. Just like with the Americans supporting the Chinese Nationalists after WW2; 'sand down a rathole' comes to mind.
>>966486
Do you even English?
>>968885
>The Whites had no foreign support
Are you fucking serious right now pal
>>966863
> So are fedoras associated with Marxism now?
Well, we had cultural "marxism" since forever. Why not fedoras?
It's not like most people even know what Marxism is.
>>968834
He is of the "WWII was initiated by Stalin" school of thought.
>>968906
Did you read the second half of that line? Tell me otherwise then, I know more about the Red support than the White support.
>>968930
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War
>>968930
> I know more about the Red support than the White support.
Why?
Allied Intervention is hardly a secret.
>>967062
>all the French revolutions
Uh, the 1789 revolution killed the king, the queen and the prince. More distant family members managed to escape, leading to the Bourbon restoration and such.
Napoleon's fall saw him exiled (which allowed him to rally supporters and briefly return to power) and his son was shipped off to Austria where he suspiciously died young. More distant relatives were ignored, which allowed Napoleon III to take power later.
>Chinese revolution of 1912
Sparing Pu Yi allowed him to be declared Emperor again in 1917 and again in 1932, pretty amazing given that everyone hated the Qing dynasty by then.
>>966486
>Yagoda and his henchmen killed over 30 million ukrainians only mere years before WW2 began yet virtually no one has ever heard of this guy let alone seen his picture, could allied victors' justice and omission of facts in the historical narrative also have played a role in this?
Because it doesn't add up. USSR's casualties in WW2 are at around 20M people, their territorial gains gave them maybe 10M new citizens. Population of USSR in 1926 = 131M people(with 1897 figure at 128M), by Stalin's death it's 105M.
Let's pick 1897 figure since it's more relevant when we're talking about Holodmor.
There's 22M Ukrainians listed. In 1926 there's 31M. To kill 30 million Ukrainians, their population would have to triple in between 1897 and 1926 which is unlikely seeing as we have WW1 between those dates.
The only flaw in my reasoning is that 1897 figure lists Ukrainian speakers rather than Ukrainians, but then again you have those few millions of them living in Poland by 1926 so it balances itself out at least partially.
>>968954
Logistics play a large part in it. The Whites didn't have their shit together basically. There was no single unified White movement. You had Kolchak, who was pretty much a dictorator himself, leading the Provisional All-Russian Government. But he didn't really work well together with Yudenich nor Denikin, who had their own White armies as well. There was foreign support, such as the Czechoslovak legion that was winning some important battles in the east and capturing cities and who supported Kolchak for the most part. Until they didn't and basically handed him over to the Bolsheviks. Guess it had something to do with them seeing the hopelessness of it all, plus the fact that a new Czechoslovak state had just been created, so they want to get the fuck out of Siberia, and back home. The Whites weren't organized well enough and did have foreign support, but not enough, and too late.
>>968954
> Thank you. How did the Reds win then?
It's more like the Allies lost. Allies were hardly in shape to sustain another major war right after WWI was over.
The idea behind the intervention was that Bolshevik regime will implode, or Soviet troops will be unable to fight the regular army. At least, it was expected that anti-Soviet forces will be doing the heavy lifting (i.e. providing the cannon fodder for the war).
However, nothing of the like happened.
Bolsheviks might've lost most of Russian Empire, but they kept the heartland. Poorly trained Soviet troops proved to be sufficiently motivated to present real threat, while White movement couldn't get itself organized. Or even function as a state.
And then there was the surge of revolutions throughout the Europe (Soviet Hungaria; Soviet Bavaria; Soviet Limerick).
Allies basically decided they are not ready to risk World Revolution just to invade Russia properly.
>>968972
> by Stalin's death it's 105M.
What are you looking at? It's 188M in 1953.
>>966486
>Surely it was not out of pure bloodlust,
>Bolshevism
>not out of pure bloodlust
>>966486
>30 million ukrainians
Nigger what? Estimates are no more than 7 million. Realistic estimates would be around 3 to 4 million.
>>969017
>What are you looking at? It's 188M in 1953.
Probably wiki page "demographic of Russia" didn't include federations that quit USSR, so yeah, if you're right then the whole claim gets even more outrageous.
>>966863
>So are fedoras associated with Marxism now?
Fedoras are associated with godlessness and materialism. Marxism is godless materialism: the ideology. So while not all fedoras are marxist there is a heavy overlap in the two groups.
Thoughts on this movie?
>>969033
Ah. That makes more sense.
Yes. You are right: modern Russia is "Russian SFSR" of USSR. About half of the USSR population.
And yes. Math and propaganda don't mix well.
Also, it's republics (often "national republics"), not federations.
>>969056
> Thoughts on this movie?
Historically speaking it's nonsense.
>>969016
The goal of Czechs in Siberia was at first to get to Vladivostok to get a ship and to get to France to join the other legions there, since there was no more fighting against Central Powers in Russia. Reds forbid them from travelling to far east, so they told them fuck you and started to shoot their way through. As the war ended and the state was estabilished, they just wanted to go home and did anything to acomplish it (like giving Kolchak to Reds.) They never really had any goals in Russia at all after Russia quit the war.
>>969104
> Reds forbid them from travelling to far east, so they told them fuck you and started to shoot their way through.
Reds told them to go home via Murmansk (which was closer anyway), since the Japs had invaded Far East.
>>969104
>>969118
The Czechoslovak legion was stretched all over the Russian east.
While yes, initially they were trying to reach Western Europe to support the Allied forces by way of Vladivostok since the Reds had blockaded many of western Russia's ports, they did become part of the Allied intervention.
Only after the armistice was signed with the Reds after the Whites kept losing ground did the Czechoslovaks truly evacuate from Russia.
It was a bit of both, evacuation and being part of the Allied intervention.
>>968956
The king, queen, and the king's sister were executed. The prince died from tuberculosis (which ran in his family and killed his older brother).
>>969056
S'good. Mostly beautiful music, some surprisingly beautiful animation with rotoscoping.
The new musical based on it and the 1956 live action film is going to be amazing. I hope it makes it to at least a Papermill tryout so I can see it. I can't justify a trip to Connecticut for the premiere version.
>>966486
envy
>be japan
>your allie britain wants you to help contain a communist movement
>hate commies
>sure, why not
>arrive in siberia
>make massive gains for your bros america and britain
>bros pull out, give up
>eventually you are the last ones left
>bros call you an agressor and breakup with you
>mfw
am I right or is this just a meme I've been told?
