Why didn't china ever become a huge world power?
They certainly had the population and organization with potential to become a huge power
But China has always had a lack of innovation, they just steal technology from other people and don't even copy it as well or improve upon it
For centuries the Chinese had great ships and did a lot of trade but they never sent their ships anywhere they did not already know about
What if they had sent their ships east and found america centuries before the Europeans?
My theory is that Chinese society is too focused on respect for authority and stability over individualism and innovation
Everyone just goes with the flow and never questions the way things are done
When Mao tried the "great leap forward" people knew it was not working but no one had the balls to tell leadership, they would rather have 30 million people die than upset their leader
Ultimately I think that is the difference between western and eastern culture, in the west every once in a while we give authorities the middle finger and change how things are done, it is a more chaotic process but the results are a more innovative stronger society
Any other theories on China?
I really don't understand where this 'Chinese can't invent' shit comes from. The Chinese invented the compass, paper, paper money, printing, and gunpowder, the first modern-style bureaucracy, and a lot of other shit. Have you ever considered that the Chinese simply didn't want to colonize the Americas because they thought life was fine in China and they weren't as obsessed with gold as the je- I mean Spaniards and Anglos? And I don't see how you can claim that the West has a stronger society when China has a longer history of continuous civilization, and is able to preserve traditions and norms with much higher fidelity.
>>959830
>But China has always had a lack of innovation, they just steal technology from other people and don't even copy it as well or improve upon it
What the hell is this meme history? You do realize history lasts a lot longer than just whatever you read about on the news? Replace literally every mention of "China" with "People's Republic of China" and you might have a theory, but a theory that's would be always subject to change as it's a rapidly changing nation.
Never, ever make the mistake of assuming things will stay the same. Taiwan and Japan were known for extremely shitty quality in the past and Japan especially was slammed by "lel no innovation" accusations for decades by jealous Western companies who couldn't understand how yellow monkeys could make good products.
>>959830
My amateur theory is that China started off with too good of a position. They conquered their corner of the world and became a civilizational hegemony to such an extent that I don't think you can find another historical instance of one cultural group being so dominant so consistently in their region.
So China had no reason to expand, they were already kings in their own little sphere and even the common folk got along fine enough with what was already conquered.
We have the benefit of hindsight though to realize China wasn't as supreme as it thought itself to be.
>>959830
That depends on what you consider a "world power". Would you consider the Roman Empire anything comparable to a "world power"? If so, Imperial China was most definitely that for much of its history. For long periods under the Han, Tang, Yuan, Ming, and Qing dynasties, the Chinese Empire was by far the most powerful polity in east Asia. In fact, a decline in Chinese hegemony usually coincided with periods when China was divided into multiple Chinese empires.
If your idea of a "world power" is something more akin to the British Empire, with far-flung territories spread all across the world, then no, China never reached so far - but why would they? China was already dominant on land, and because of its vast territory, securing its existing borders was the obvious priority. To the north, steppe peoples posed a persistent threat to China's heartland of the northern plain. Tibetan peoples at times also threatened China from the west, and while the southern half of China proper was conquered under the Han, it wasn't until the Song period that China's southern core was as Sinicized, developed, and productive as the north.
China did indeed develop navies to benefit its trade, but for most of its history it benefited much more from trans-continental trade. Thus, at its greatest heights, the Chinese Empire garrisoned a corridor through Xinjiang, despite the area's vulnerability to nomadic groups. And when emperors desired territorial expansion, Korea and Vietnam always seemed more obvious. However, China never managed to secure control of either region for very long, and that burden must have certainly limited China's ability to impose itself overseas.
>>960140 is right, by the way. China was for a very long time was as innovative as the west, and ahead in many respects. That's another discussion in itself, but it seems to me that the Chinese Empire's stagnation under the Ming coincided with the lightning fast expansion and advancement of European overseas empires.
>>959830
Too simplistic. China had plenty of innovations, is only recently they are stealing to catch up. Two things: the large population and territory is a liability as well as an advantage and China experienced what is called the "reverse equilibrium trap".
The first point meant that China was inwardly focused politically, because warring states periods were completely devastating. The second refers to the economic conditions that make the risk of innovation too expensive compared to simply doing things the way they were already established (cheap labor helps). It took the intervention of technologically advanced westerners to pressure China to break out of economic complacency. They still are more concerned with maintaining their own political system than imperialism (although they do have significant outward-facing economic ambitions)... At least for now.
>>960248
>They conquered their corner of the world
>Japan and Korea still exist
Damn this is a really good thread. Good job on not sucking /his/.
>>959830
> Why haven't the US ever had a white president? They certainly had the population and organization to at some point vote for a white president.
This is how retarded you sound like.
>>959830
It did. The technologies to reliably maintain a trans-continental empire didn't really exist before Europe developed improved ship technology in the 1300s. There was not much incentive in China to explore the unknown west adjacent to them because China didn't experience the same military and economic pressures for autarky considering it was united throughout most of history which was unique as compared with Europe, the Middle East, and India, which experienced relatively brief periods of unity during antiquity.
>>959830
The Sinitic core was a lot smaller than modern day China. Semi barbarian(Wu,Chu,Yan) or barbarian neighbors(Shu,Min) are all now regional toponyms.
>>961988
>trans-continental
*inter-continental
>>959830
It will, in this century.
CHINA WILL GROW LARGER
>>959830
PRC couldn't because it was hampered by Mao.
Ancient China? What was:
>ZHENG HE'S MOTHERFUCKING VOYAGES, WHICH THEY HAD TO STOP AND BURN ALL DOCUMENTS REGARDING THEM BECAUSE IT COST TOO MUCH
>DOUBLE-TEAMING WITH THE ANCIENT KOREANS TO BUMFUCK JAPAN WHEN TOYOTOMI HIDEYOSHI WENT FUCKING INSANE
Creativity? The Chinese invented gunpowder, the crossbow, MOTHERFUCKING MINES (AND SEA MINES), primitive MIRVs (very, very primitive MIRVs; these shot arrows instead of smaller bombs), and I have yet to touch upon the making of the printing press, paper, the compass and all that delicious, delicious medical knowledge that Japan and Korea traded/stole for.
The same culture Mao tried to wipe off the planet. His own damn culture.
>>962057
Is this the only case of attempted cultural self-genocide in recent memory?
these guys were next door
>>962824
As far as I know, the Chinese have attempted to erase their own history more than once.
Zheng He was the first. Then the Cultural Revolution.
I will honestly say that I have no idea as to what other countries attempted cultural genocide other than China.
>>962824
No
Too many chink spies in this thread.
>>960140
So wrong about everything that I know that showing you evidence about how those "Chinese" we're not Chinese it wouldn't make a difference. Maybe you have another look at those inventions.
Also, in the last 300 years has China invented anything worth while? Have they ever been relevant in world affairs besides being a pawn of the superpowers? China is the most overrated shitty country besides India.
>>962942
>Have they ever been relevant in world affairs besides being a pawn of the superpowers?
The Cold War?
>>959830
Chinese culture dislikes changes and chaos.
Mao tried to break it down during cultural revolution exactly because he knew they will never have any kind of hegemony(aka. bring communism to the world) if he won't do it.
>>962966
I'm pretty sure they still never came anywhere close to reaching hegemony in his lifetime up until his successors eliminated half of the shit he came up with.
>>962970
Because he failed.
What you don't understand is that if he would be physically able to break the culture, he could pursue extremely aggressive foreign policy from now on.
He failed so China will have gigantic army, fleet, economy and so on, but it won't expand nor project that power on anything outside of their nearest neighbours.
>>962942
>So wrong about everything that I know that showing you evidence about how those "Chinese" we're not Chinese it wouldn't make a difference.
Could you please repeat that in English?
>>960140
It basically boils down to Whites disparaging and dismissing competition, done out of fear and to prop themselves up despite the fact that the West had contributed little to the world in terms of ideas and innovations. Post-Roman Europe was the asshole of the Old World before the 17the century.
>>960140
Funny, Chang, even the ideology your Chink learders used to rule your people came from a german neet, show some gratitude to your father
>>963072
>thinking that Chinese "communism" has anything in common with Western counterparts
Kek
The level of retardation these /pol/cuks exhibit never stops to amaze me.
>>963055
>Post-Roman Europe was the asshole of the Old World
What a load of crap. Arabs were borrowing inventions from Europe already in 12th century.
>>960140
Chinese civilization has fallen apart and had to rebuild itself way more times than Europe ever has.
Depends on what we consider a superpower. Will any country ever be in the same situation the U.S currently is in? Probably not. U.S found itself in a rather unique situation after the world wars and was able to climb so far up to the top that no one even compared.
Chinese economy is also heavily based on exporting which is not the most stable basis. Also, because the Chinese economy is based on exporting, it is in a geopolitically vulnerable position (caspianreport has a good video on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG225dz89TY)
And China of course comes with the typical post-communist, 2/1-second world issuses: corruption, general dishonesty and brain drain.
And besides, having a large population will become more and more disadvantageous when faced with overpopulation and automatization
>>963105
>Everyone borrows from everyone
Actually, it means that Europe already in 12th century was giving away more than it received. Mongols one century later were the very last notable infusion of external knowledge and technology into Europe.
>>963105
>borrow inventions then say that they came up with it all by themselves.
I don't believe there are sane people who claim that Europe developed paper or gunpowder. There's however some reason to believe that compass was developed independently in Europe.
>>962824
Germany 2016
>>959830
China has long been a force unto itself. The Chinese government must administer to roughly a 1/7th of the world's population. It's a big country that has always been absorbed in itself.
In other words, china is big and populous enough to function almost as a closed ecosystem or microcosm, in isolation from the rest of history.
Pair this with actual isolationist policies, and you can see why china often comes off as disengaged.
>China has always had a lack of innovation
This is untrue. If I'm not mistaken, most of the world's major inventions up to a certain point originated in china. Paper and gunpowder being two big ones.
>>960140
>. Have you ever considered that the Chinese simply didn't want to colonize the Americas because they thought life was fine in China and they weren't as obsessed with gold as the je- I mean Spaniards and Anglos?
If Chinese colonized America, Would Nanjing massacre ever happen ?
>>963327
>Actually, it means that Europe already in 12th century was giving away more than it received. Mongols one century later were the very last notable infusion of external knowledge and technology into Europe.
False. Many of the technologies and ideas in Europe even up until the 18th century had already existed in other parts of Eurasia long before they arrived or were developed independently in Europe. They had little to teach the Arab world as opposed to the many civilizations that littered the Silk Road
>>959830
You do realize China is still climbing the ladder right? They've already been surpassing Europe, if America's monopolistic dollar were to ever collapse, the Yuan and the Euro would be at the top.
It went downhill after song desu.
>>959830
OP you are a fucking idiot. China was THE world power until about 1800. Read a fucking book.
>>964083
t. pomeranz
>>959830
>Why didn't china ever become a huge world power?
It did and it is now. Most of the worlds population lives in Asia in the first place.
>>961960
Korea was nearly always sphered by them and Japan wasn't seen as important.
>>961960
Sweden probably, although in a less violent more subversive fashion. IIRC a while back a prominent politician in Sweden claimed that the Swedes had no culture of their own and all advancement in their country had been thanks to foreign nations and people.
>>962930
>ITT people bashing Mao Zedong and communism
>chinese spies
>pick one
>>959830
What a stupid fucking post. Along with the blowhard attempts at opinions in the response.
>>966554
There are also assblasted Chinese that can't handle the fact that communism is best ideology. Many of them go to the US and build careers on their feelings about how bad it is to work on a farm or in a factory instead of having maids and cooks waiting on you, which for some reason Americans love despite their panhandling to farmers and industrial workers.
>>963079
>Implying what's left of Chinese state ideology isn't just western nationalism.
lel.
>>963327
I disagree tbqh. The last significant tech the west got from the outside world was the Bessemer process which Henry Bessemer learned from Chinese laborers and subsequently improved using modern technology.
>>964076
The Song Dynasty was China's finest hour imho
>>964083
No. China stopped being the preeminent power by at least the late 1500s.
>>960140
>And I don't see how you can claim that the West has a stronger society when China has a longer history of continuous civilization, and is able to preserve traditions and norms with much higher fidelity.
>and is able to preserve traditions and norms with much higher fidelity.
That is a blatant lie and I have no idea where the hell you got that idea from. All western states still have strong Christmas traditions, churches all over the place, old buildings, etc etc. Chinese traditions have evolved and been discarded just like western traditions have, and just like is happening in the West, they're being increasingly alienated from their heritage by the modern world. I honestly have no clue where you got this from unless you don't have any experience with the Chinese. Fashion changes, traditions change, customs change, beauty standards change... hell, if anything, because of Mao they've been even *more* willing to destroy their heritage than the West via temple burning, discarding Confucian thought and so forth.
>Chinese not being inventive
The only thing that the Chinese have invented of consequence in the past several hundred years is the electronic cigarette. China stopped innovating a long time ago. It made a lot of really awesome shit and then rested on its laurels because it thought it was the greatest thing ever, which is also coincidentally why they never went on a huge exploratory mission all over the world like the westerners did. They didn't care and they had no need to care.
>>963055
Sometimes I feel like /his/ is just bizarro world /pol/.
>>961960
China never conquered them because it never had to. They were fine with Japan and Korea just acknowledging that China was a tier above them.
>>959830
No one wanted to "find" America. Columbus set sail to find new sea routes to India and accidentally stumbled upon America. If not for Europeans, America wouldn't have been a superpower today. Imagine a bunch of chinks trying to cleanse red Indians, they would have arrows up their ass.
>>966595
>the electronic cigarette
Don't forget hoverboards...
Thanks for the fires China
>>966622
>Imagine a bunch of chinks trying to cleanse red Indians, they would have arrows up their ass.
Doubtful, the Chinese were pretty good at removing ethnicities from premises.
The killing of the Dzungars/the Oirats is actually considered to be the first modern intentional genocide. They were very thorough and even today, hundreds of years later, there remain only a few thousand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide
They've also done some fun stuff in Tibet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Great_Campaigns#Suppression_of_the_Jinchuan_hill_peoples_.281747.E2.80.9349.2C_1771.E2.80.9376.29
>>966595
>They didn't care and they had no need to care.
And they became an obsolete country, sick man of Asia since the 18th century... then boom... you have Opium, Sino- Jap War , Rape of Nanking...etc
>>966684
Pretty much. The Japs got their ass in gear fast because they saw that they were no match for the West and they needed to industrialize quickly to survive as a sovereign nation. They didn't have the same cultural and historical inertia as China.
>>966695
China also had way too much infighting to effectively westernize. At the beginning of the First Sino-Japanese war, China had a larger fleet than Japan and Europe expected China to win but the Chinese admirals refused to work together.
>>966709
Is this legit? If so, that's hilarious
>>966777
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War#China
>William Lang, a British advisor to the Chinese military, praised Chinese training, ships, guns, and fortifications, stating that "in the end, there is no doubt that Japan must be utterly crushed".
kek
Also China was dealing with the Dungan Revolt at the same time which didn't help
>>966622
>didn't colonize America
Why does it have to be America when Australia, wasteland that is was then and now, was right there?
>>960248
>and became a civilizational hegemony to such an extent that I don't think you can find another historical instance of one cultural group being so dominant so consistently in their region.
Which explains why they speak 10 different languages in the country and has 20 or so ethnic Groups.
>>966841
>muh 56 ethnicities! muh 56 ethnicities!
prove it
>>966830
>Australia, wasteland that is was then and now, was right there?
Why would the Chinese colonize Australia? Or anywhere for that matter? The idea of colonialism never really existed in China. In addition, Australia kinda sucks. The Indonesians likely knew about it for centuries but they didn't bother try colonizing it because it sucks
>>966709
It's a bit more than the admirals refusing to work together, the Manchu government wanted to keep their non-Manchu subjects divided so they wouldn't turn on them.
The Manchus trying at all costs to hold on to minority rule of China reeeaaaally fucked things up.
>>966841
>20 or so ethnic Groups
Nearly all of which are insignifiicant
>>966848
yup. it's really just the han who matter, as well as the uighurs and tibetans for security purposes.
>>966877
The PRC propaganda machine goes on and on about how diverse China is ethnically when almost all of them look like the Han majority anyway. Barely distinguished by dialect and hat color.
>>959830
I think you're on to something here, but there's a few flaws to deal with. As others have pointed out, a lot of inventions came from China, and China was dominant economically for a while. It only fell behind the Western powers in the 1700s. I think respect for authority didn't stop the China from inventing, but rather it made it difficult for China to adapt to a changing world. For various reasons, leaders in china at that time weren't focused on industrializing. The people were obedient, so they didn't demand modernisation. If the Chinese at that time were focused on modernisation (like the Japanese), things would be very different. Respect for authority and collectivism can be beneficial. If your leaders are competent, then respect for authority makes it easier for them to get stuff done. If you're leaders are fools, then it pretty much guarantees failure. Whereas in a western society, if the laws are shit, people are more willing to find ways around the law (violate the intent of the law without violating the letter of the law). This allows the economy to still function despite a disfunction government.
>>966914
>arr rook the same
You can literally make the same argument about Europeans. Despite what you think Han is not a race it's a cultural designator, there are even ethnic Russians who fall under the category of Han.
>>966846
why does it sucks?
>>967046
No one claims European looks different from each other. Europe is probably the most mixed continent genetically
>>966595
>Sometimes I feel like /his/ is just bizarro world /pol/.
just traditional academic tendencies chum e.g. my hot contrarian take is....wait for it......THE WEST SUCSK
>>959830
>literally a post full of memes
>>966590
>The Song Dynasty was China's finest hour imho
It tried saying this with a straight face and laughed.
>>962939
>that exceeds demand
Hmm I wonder how they sell their stuff then.
>>966590
>China stopped being the preeminent power by at least the late 1500s
Sure, let's ignore the Qing's 10 Great Campaigns of the 1700's by the wayside.
>>959830
The real question is: How can we get rid of them ?
>>966565
U wut m8
>>968370
Was there any power to rival them?
Maybe the Ottomans? But the Ottomans after 1550 only truly controlled a small amount of territory compared to the early Qing.
>>968381
>1.5 billion Han
I think it might be the other way around. If they all immigrated to Europe and America they'd outnumber the natives.
>>968411
Which brings me to my original question:
> How can we get rid of them ?
>>966841
But with a single power structure, that controlled a large swath of land. >>960248
I feel this is somewhat correct for the wrong reasons. The difference between China, and Europe boils down to an issue of area (China is larger) and number of rulers (China, singular, for most of its history, Europe, 10, or more powerful kingdoms for most of its history (England, France, Spain, Portugal, The Dutch, Germany, Venice, the Poles, the Ottomans, etc, etc)
When you have multiple kingdoms fighting for power and resources in a smaller area, it drives the need to look elsewhere for resources, trade, etc. In China, and Russia for that matter, they had rulers fighting, but eventually unified a huge chunk of the Earth, full of resources, lowering the need to colonize, even though they did spread their influence across the region. Also, Africa and the Americas were much closer to Europe than China, to begin with (Atlantic is much smaller than the Pacific).
Eventually technological advances from colonization compounded, and the industrial revolution happened.
>>968408
Going by comparative historians? 1700-1600 Russians.
The Ottomen were pretty much declining by the time the Qing was founded and Qing China's high point was the 1700's, when it folded Mongolia, bitz of Kazakhstan, Tibet into its rule. Even in defeat it had tremendous influence: as shown when Burma pretty much fended off the Qing offensive but the Qing offensive weakened them which led to the independence of Chink ally, Siam, and its rise in the region in the 1700's. Vietnam was also another success in fighting the Qings but fell into Qing hegemony anyway because the Qing would just send another army and the realization of such pretty much led to the Nguyen dynasty's pragmatic entrance into the tributary relation with Qingz.
>>966647
Those were Manchu, not native Chinese rulers. That's like saying the Chinese were responsible for the shit the Mongols pulled.
