Can we get a naval warfare thread going?
What are your favorite historical naval battles?
Favorite historical naval power?
Favorite naval commander(s)?
When do we finally get a quality Horatio Nelson biopic?
Any good, reasonably accurate historical/historical fiction naval films?
>>951892
>Horatio Nelson biopic
The problem with that is any nelson biopic would have to walk a very fine line between wankery and a hit piece.
Take for example on the one hand how he was beloved by his men, a fact supported by contemporary accounts of nelsons general charisma. they call it the nelson touch for a reason. On the other hand he was a bit vainglorious and craved the limelight.
How does a nelson biopic deal with Lady Nelson and Lady Hamilton?
Nelson is a beloved figure in England so how far do you go in examining his record critically with out attacking the man
>>952058
Why does a biopic have to be critical of someone? Just present the facts as they happened at the time, rather than spinning a narrative out of it.
Not sure about films, but John Keegan's The Price of Admiralty is a cracking good read on naval warfare from Napoleonic times to the Second World War.
Favorite battles, probably Coronel and Midway.
What was the biggest/most intense naval battle before the introduction of cannons and big sails with a focus on rowing and ramming? Were there any giant naval battles in history at this stage where boarding was a primary component of the battle?
>>951892
Korean Admiral that removed Japan back in the Middle Ages. Forget his name, but a great Admiral. Gonna say it was Yi Sun.
>>952189
Salamis
>>952189
Lepanto, natch.
There were some cannons at Lepanto but the battle was won mainly by ramming and handheld firepower.
I'm curious, we know a good deal about the Roman Army and it's century structure and all. What do we know about how the Roman Navy was structured?
Given that this was before the dominance of sailing vessels, cannon broadsides and rifles, how did they fight their sea battles? Was it much like the Greek naval forces with ramming ships and boarding with melee combat? If that is the case, did the Roman Republic/Empire's naval forces use regular army soldiers for their boarding and melee fighting or were they mostly dedicated naval officers that trained to fight on ships along with slave soldiers?
>>952289
My knowledge is mostly from Europa Barbarorum, but I believe the Roman Navy was practically garbage before they had a go at Carthage. Even during those wars they regularly got their asses handed to them or their fleets lost in bad weather. They eventually resorted to the traditional Roman strategy of copying enemy ships (after a while they did end up having a few captured or beached).
Fighting was indeed mostly ramming, though I do believe one of the Roman inventions was some boarding contraption that was basically a bridge they could drop on enemy ships. There's also some ships that carried ballistae, but I doubt that would be anywhere close to the effectiveness of ramming.
As for professional marines, again that would also be something that was gradually introduced.
>>952189
>where boarding was a primary component of the battle
boarding was almost always the primary component of a naval battle
>>952189
Lepanto, probably. Mostly ramming, though some sources say that the European navies had a few massive ships that were very effective because they would just literally crush through the smaller galleys used by the Ottomans.
>>952363
I think you're talking about the venetian galleass
On the contrary to some of the questions, at what point did boarding begin to fall out of use as a primary component of naval warfare? My guess is some time around the rise of cannons and broadside sailing vessals, but it seems like boarding parties still played some level of importance during the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars.
Are there any records of some of the most recent major uses of naval boarding in a sea battle?
I wish I knew the basics of naval battle and naval history, from ancient times all the way to modern warfare.
Anyone here can recommend me something on that?
>>952111
A film has somewhere between 120 and 150 minutes for fill, as such you have to pick and choose what to include and what to leave out.
>>952111
A film has somewhere between 120 and 150 minutes for fill, as such you have to pick and choose what to include and what to leave out.
You could go two ways with it.
one) is pic related. Nelson as a candidate for canonization As per wikipedia:
>Scott Pierre Nicolas Legrand's Apotheosis of Nelson, c. 1805–18. Nelson ascends into immortality as the Battle of Trafalgar rages in the background. He is supported by Neptune, whilst Fame holds a crown of stars as a symbol of immortality over Nelson's head. A grieving Britannia holds out her arms, whilst Hercules, Mars, Minerva and Jupiter look on.
two) is to present a biography of the man as what I think he was; a flawed hero. A master of his trade but also a vain self promoter who took what he wanted with little regards for long term consequences.
How representative are Empire and Shogun Total Wars of 18th century and 19th century naval combat, respectively?
>>952543
I haven't played those Total Wars, but the other Total Wars I have played were terribly inaccurate
>>952408
I suppose the early broadside still used boarding but they shifted away from that when naval tactics changed to formations shooting at each other from longer distances.
>>952058
>On the other hand he was a bit vainglorious and craved the limelight.
I don't think you get to be a great man or advance in life without being at least a little vainglorious though.
>tfw you never lived in the age of sail
>>952508
Make a Nelson HBO miniseries instead of a feature. Or a series of films like the Hornblower movies. Cover his life from the beginnings of his naval career to the end.
The real question is who to cast as Horatio Nelson?
>>952646
I know that feel.
>>953305
Michael Sheen would be a good pick, I think.
>>952202
dude had like a dozen ships vs 300+ and japs got rekt
What was medieval naval warfare like?
>>952058
>Take for example on the one hand how he...
>one hand
kek
Anyone know of any good books regarding submarine warfare? WWI and WWII, primarily.
I find the idea of WWI submarines surfacing to take down some ships with their deck guns while only submerging to escape or torpedo ships that would over power them interesting and submarine campaign in the Pacific theater during WWII seems to have so little focus in comparison to the Atlantic U-boat campaigns and the carruer battles in the Pacific theater despite the high casualty rate suffered by the American and Japanese submariners.
I would love some recommendations on WWI submarine warfare and WWII submarine warfare that focuses on the Pacific, though if there are any particularly interesting books about the U-boat campaign, I'd love to read them too.
>>952543
Haven't played the latter. Napoleon naturally makes improvements on Empire, which are arcadey but decently representational and good fun too; but for the bland, nearly non-existant weather and lack of waves.
New Silent Hunter game when?
On 4th February 1797 the Spanish Fleet set sail from Cartagena on the Mediterranean coast of Spain for Cadiz, the principal Atlantic port, with the intention of sailing on to the French port of Brest to join the French Fleet. The combined fleets would create a powerful threat to Britain. After passing through the straits of Gibraltar, strong easterly gales blew the Spanish Fleet out into the Atlantic, heading back for Cadiz once the wind veered westerly. Admiral Don Joseph de Cordova, the Spanish commander, learnt from a passing American vessel that Admiral Sir John Jervis’s British Fleet off Cape St Vincent comprised only 9 ships. De Cordova with his 35 ships, including several of the largest battle ships at sea, resolved to take advantage of the enormous disparity and attack the British. However after the American’s sighting 6 further ships joined the British Fleet.
>>953603
The knowledge that the Spanish Fleet was at sea, with the likelihood of a fleet action, brought Commodore Horatio Nelson hurrying in the frigate Minerve from Gibraltar to join Jervis; on the night of 11th February 1797 sailing unobserved through the Spanish Fleet. Reaching the British Fleet off Cape St Vincent on 13th February 1797 Nelson informed his admiral that the Spanish Fleet was approaching and Jervis prepared for battle. Nelson moved his commodore’s pendant from Minerve to the Captain, 74 guns
>>953609
Dawn on 14th February 1797 found the opposing fleets converging; the British sailing south, closed up, alerted by the repeated firing of Spanish signal guns during the foggy morning, the Spanish ships sailing east in irregular formation and scattered. The mist concealed from the Spanish the true number of British ships even once the sun had risen. As De Cordova emerged from the fog,
Jervis listened to the reports from his flag captain reading the signals flown by the British frigate Bonne Citoyenne: Flag Captain: “There are 8 sail of the line, Sir John." Jervis: “Very well sir." Flag Captain: “There are 20 sail of the line, Sir John." Jervis: “Very well sir." Flag Captain: “There are 25 sail of the line…… 27 sail of the line…. Sir John, near double our own." Jervis: “Enough of that, sir. If there are 50 sail, I will go through them."
>>952058
>England knows I have never slept with Lady Hamilton. May my eye be put out and my arm cut off if I am lying.
t. Nelson
>>953620
Kek
Does anyone know if the Hornblower tv movies series is worth a watch? I love historical naval stuff.
>>953616
Jervis ordered the British Fleet into line ahead formed on the flagship, Victory, with Troubridge’s Culloden leading the line; Nelson in Captain third from the rear. Culloden headed for the gap between the two divisions of the Spanish Fleet, cutting off the leading 9 ships. As the line entered the gap Culloden opened fire, followed by the succeeding ships, the guns being double shotted for the first broadsides.
Each of the two Spanish divisions turned to the North, apparently to sail down the flanks of the British Fleet and escape. To conform Culloden tacked ship to lead the British line in pursuit of the larger Spanish division.
Immediately the difficulty became apparent to Nelson at the rear of the line: The British ships would be forced to pursue the Spanish, their admiral now aware that the British Fleet was significantly stronger than he had expected, even though his force was double its strength. It was unlikely that the pursuit could produce the decisive battle Jervis looked for.
>tfw the Polyphemus was never used in anger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-reAahY1GCE
>>953627
Nelson acted in the ruthlessly aggressive and decisive manner that was his unique hallmark. Disobeying the admiral’s order to sail in line ahead conforming to Victory, Nelson turned the 74 gun Captain hard to port and cutting back through the British line between Diadem and Excellent sailed straight for the van of the Spanish division, attacking the 130 gun Santissima Trinidad, the largest ship afloat.
The Spanish flagship joined by San Josef, 112 guns, Salvador del Mundo, 112 guns, San Nicolas, 80 guns and San Isidoro, 74 guns, engaged the Captain.
>>953633
Culloden, leading the British Fleet in pursuit of the Spanish, rushed to Nelson’s assistance, as did the last ship in the line, Excellent, the three British ships battling with the van of the Spanish division until the remaining British ships came up and the engagement became general.
Blenheim, 90 guns, joined the action between the three British ships and their Spanish adversaries, accompanied by Diadem, while Excellent engaged Salvador del Mundo and San Isidoro, causing each of these ships to cease action and haul down their colours.
Collingwood on Excellent pushed on without securing the two ships to assist the hard pressed Captain.
>>953623
It's not as good as Master and Commander, but I liked it.
>>953642
Nelson saw his further opportunity. Although the Spanish broadside had completely dismasted Captain, Nelson directed Miller to put the ship alongside the damaged San Nicolas and himself led a strong boarding party onto the Spanish ship.
Nelson led the boarding party onto San Nicolas with the cry “Westminster Abbey or victory." He used a similar form of words at the Battle of the Nile, perhaps showing his obsession with a glorious death in battle, finally achieved at Trafalgar.
Among the boarders were soldiers from the 69th Regiment and several “Old Agamemnons".
>>953646
The captain of San Nicolas was in the act of surrender to Nelson after a vigorous struggle when the crew of San Josef of the towering ship alongside opened fire on the deck. Calling for reinforcements from Captain, Nelson boarded the second Spanish ship and took her, receiving the surrender from the captain, the admiral being a casualty.
The Royal Navy referred to Nelson’s extraordinary feat in capturing the two Spanish ships as “Nelson’s Patent Bridge for Boarding" i.e. capturing one ship by crossing another.
>>953651
Looking to take further part in the battle Nelson transferred to Minerve and called for a launch to take him to the nearest ship of the line, Irresistible; but by the time he reached her the battle was ending and the Spanish Fleet heading for Cadiz.
The heavy damage to the British ships and the presence of the unengaged 9 ships of the Spanish van ruled out any pursuit and Jervis had to be satisfied with the capture of 4 Spanish ships, 2 being first rates, while lamenting that no other captain had taken the initiative to capture the badly damaged Santissima Trinidad in the way Nelson had taken the San Nicolas and the San Josef. But the action was a decisive victory and the Spanish Fleet failed to join the French in Brest in its threat to mainland Britain, remaining bottled up in Cadiz by Jervis’s resumed blockade.
If I remember correctly, at Trafalgar one of the sailors on a captured Spanish ship was dressed in a Harlequin costume, having been pressganged by the navy the night before after a performance.
I really, really want a movie about that guy's life.
>>953350
You have two kinds.
That primitive bullshit going on in Northern Europe where it's basically "LETS BANG BOATS TOGETHER AND FITE :DDDD" with fucking Cogs and converted merchantment.
And real navies in the mediterranean with galleys n shit who have more sophisticated tactics than "Boarding the other guy."
>>953623
For sure, some of the computer effects are dated, there's some 2kewl shit from the early years of readily accessible CGI usage, but they hide their lack of budget for extras far better than something like Sharpe.
>>953775
>who have more sophisticated tactics than "Boarding the other guy."
Yeah, "Ram the other guy".
>>953817
Nope. There's also skirmishing involved
Also its better than getting your ship stuck at a no holds barred boarding fight.
>>953824
>implying naval boarding isn't one of the coolest parts of naval combat
>>952213
THIS
How were naval battle before ships of the line became common ?
For example the ottoman naval battles with the spanish during the 16th century.
>>952408
The Anglo-Dutch war was still big on boarding. At this point the line of battle was not yet the standard tactic amongst everyone. The Dutch essentially told every captain to think and maneuver for himself turning 100 vs 100 ship battles into dogfights in which boarding happened from time to time. Eventually the English started using that line thingy more often.
>>953350
Boarding, chaining ships together, using some fire based weapons. Oh yeah folks typically fought in armor in case you are wondering.
>>954199
>>954200
>>954199
So... a lot of people drowned, I take it?
Is naval warfare between ships not possessing air power obsolete now? Will we ever see another large naval battle with destroyers and cruisers just firing at each other without a carrier launching fighters to sink enemy ships?
>>954202
>>954276
Might as well just wait for the space navy capital ships instead.
Who are some other notably amazing naval commanders worth reading about other than Yi Sun-Sin and Horatio Nelson?
Were there any notably skilled submarine commanders?
>>954313
Spain, the Netherlands and Sweden occasionally had a good commander.
>>952408
You have to answer the question why was boarding common to understand it first.
Cannons, ordinary cannons shooting iron(or earlier - stone) ball aren't very dangerous for ship, even wooden one, other weapons are even less dangerous with exception of ram, but ramming is and will always be extremely dangerous for both the ship that rams and the one that's being rammed.
At first the counter to boarding was to use line formation and it generally discouraged any boarding during battles(because it allowed to amass firepower at incoming ship). However, the real, nasty counter to it was the invention of explosive shell, which made boarding enormously dangerous, as they could blow the(wooden) ship in few shots as evidenced during early days of Crimean War(so you didn't want to be close to the enemy). Of course by the time there was also a counter to these weapons - armoured ships. Guns were again not really effective against them, but boarding didn't come back because *exiting* the ironclad's fighting compartment during battle was still pretty deadly at low ranges.
The fun fact is that in 1860's there was a trend of developing ramming-oriented ironclads since some naval powers decided that they absolutely won't be able to break through their armour ever again, and initially they've had many successes but invention of torpedo stopped them as close ranges became deadly again. Later development of armour-piercing ammo didn't help either and that's the time where close-combat between navies stopped being a thing.
>>953761
Can someone confirm this. I so badly want this to be true
Blackbeard mate.
>>954630
I read it in "Nelson's Trafalgar". It seemed pretty well researched. Unfortunately the mention was only three sentences or so, I'll try to find the actual reference
>>954636
Did he really light things on fire and put them in his beard to intimidate people? Seems like a good way to get burned and your hair caught on fire.
How many non-experienced/non-seamen were press ganged into service? How big of a role did "on- the-job" training have on a ship? Do we know if any press ganged sailors choose to remain in that career field after their service was up?
>>954313
Thomas Cochrane AKA The Wolf of the Seas
Read his exploits and you wonder why the fuck hasn't anyone made a movie about his life. He even wanted to free Napoleon from St. Helena and take him to South America. Imagine if that happened?
>>954196
Michiel de Ruyter was a god-tier commander. The dude had massive cojones.
>>955601
To somewhat answer one of your questions.
If you listen to a lot of seamans songs from the age of sail, you'll see that sailors tended to get stuck in a loop.
>Have no money
>Go to sea
>Finally return after a long voyage and be discharged
>Have money from your wages
>Buy nice new clothes
>Get drunk
>Buy prostitutes
>Have no money left
>Go to sea again
>>955565
I think he tied ropes at the end and burned that, or something like that (tied something to the beard)
>>955565
I don't know but he's the reason pirates have the accent they do in movies.
>>956367
I always was under the impression it was because the guy who played long John Silver in the first treasure island movie with sound had a west country accent.
>>956396
Blackbeard was from Bristol so I always thought that had something to do with it. They could have easily told the guy who played long John Silver too speak with a different accent or chosen a different actor. But you could be right the guy who played long John Silver was from Dorset.
>>956396
Most of the characters in Treasure Island are from in or around Bristol.
Can anyone here confirm whether the Aubrey-Maturin novels are worth reading? I love the setting and naval combat in general, but I'm not sure of the quality of the series or whether it will fill my appetite for naval battles, broadside cannon volleys and daring boarding parties with brutal close quarters fighting.
>>956794
worth getting into if your willing to learn all the naval lingo, another good series is C.S forester's hornblower series which is the inspiration for aubrey-maturin and sharpe
>>956809
I've seen some of the movies they made based on the Hornblower series and loved them. Are the books better or different enough to warrant reading them instead of just finishing the movie series?
>>956828
well the film series only covers the first 1/3rd of hornblowers career as they only made 8 episodes. plus the books are always better
>>956794
>>956809
My favourite out of Forester, Cornwell, and O'Brian would definitely be O'Brian, but the battles are a bit further apart, but it's the most historically accurate by far.
Also this
>His work during the Second World War is murky in the details. He worked as an ambulance driver and he stated that he worked in intelligence. Dean King has claimed that O'Brian was actively involved in intelligence work and perhaps special operations overseas during the war.[2]:89–104 Indeed, despite his usual extreme reticence about his past, O'Brian wrote in an essay, "Black, Choleric and Married?" included in the book "Patrick O'Brian: Critical Appreciations and a Bibliography (1994)"[5] that: "Some time after the blitz had died away I joined one of those intelligence organisations that flourished during the War, perpetually changing their initials and competing with one another. Our work had to do with France, and more than that I shall not say, since disclosing methods and stratagems that have deceived the enemy once and that may deceive him again seems to me foolish.
>>951892
L E P A N T O
E
P
A
N
T
O
>tfw no movie ever in the past and in the future
>>953775
Atlantic warfare wasn't "primitive". It was constrained by the need to make ships seaworthy for Atlantic conditions.
His picture, of the Battle of Sluys, was decided by the kind of tactics you say are mediterranean: the English would try to flank French ships and use superior firepower to force a surrender or weaken the crew enough for boarding to succeed.
>>954259
I think part of the idea behind stealth-ships was that all the carrier groups would be nuked, so you need something that can avoid detection and move fast enough to escape retaliation after engaging an enemy.
I've heard that they had a lot of problems, including that if you're moving fast enough with a hull designed for low radar cross-section, you'll send up a sea spray which increases your cross section
>>955565
Slow matches, yeah. There wouldn't be an open flame, just an ember.
tfw the perfidious albion attacked Copenhagen and destroyed Denmark-Norway as an entity
Worst disaster of all history
Who would you guys rank as the top 10 or so Naval powers in history? The US Navy, British Navy at the height of its power, Dutch Republic? Imperial Japan? Who else is worth mentioning?
>>951892
Not one of the best as compared to the others mentioned here, but probably the best in its day- navy of Gupta empire of 10th century India. Successfully colonized south east Asia, Singapore and spread Hinduism and Buddhism.
Jutland.
Probably the first time in a long time the Royal Navy shit themselves.
>>957703
A pity the world at large (and Nelson in particular) turned a blind eye to it.
>>957820
Carthage?
>>958045
>people actuakky think the germans won jutland
>>958715
Never suggested they won,It was the first show of force the RN saw in a long while. It mus have been spooky.
