Why wasn't she able to create competitive trade routes when she started getting undercut by colonial empires?
No real experience in ocean navigation, the Mediterranean sea wasn't going to be the center of the world much longer, the capital to reprogram all the shipbuilding for oceanic travel wasn't there, the usual suspects could put a blockade on the strait of Gibraltar if they wanted to, etc.
Playtime was over.
>>950311
The fun stops for good when pic related happens.
>Venice fell
>Gott straffe Venedig
>>950329
It was already long over for Venice by then.
>>950349
>>950355
why the hate?
>>950311
But a lot of Explorers for the Atlantic nations actually came from Italy, Venice surely had the capital in the 16th century to invest in colonialism if they wanted to do so. Why didn't they?
Permanently blockading the Strait of Gibraltar doesn't seem very plausible.
>>950373
I, myself am an butthurt Romeboo.
>>950384
>Eastern
>
>
>>950384
4th Crusade's only mistake was not completely razing the city of Constantinople
>>950390
You're absolutely correct. It is just "The Roman Empire" or the "Empire of the Romans". No point in clinging to false notions about the empire separating.
Thank you, friend!
>>950311
Basically this, shitty galleys can't into ocean
Also not to mention they were already busy getting cucked by the Ottomans by the time of colonization
>>950373
>Permanently blockading the Strait of Gibraltar doesn't seem very plausible.
It does not, but then Venice enter one single war with Spain and get their access to the colonies entirely cut off.
>>950278
Venetian wealth wasn't tied to competing for trade routes, it was based on a shipping and warehousing monopoly that could no longer compete with the French and British starting in the 17th century.
>>950311
That wasn't much of an issue, Venetian galliots and giant cogs were sailing to Amsterdam regularly by the 14th and 15th centuries, and plenty of sailing expertise came down to Venice at that time through sailing veterans of the English Channel and the Bay of Biscay.
>>950409
It wasn't roman or an empire
>>950278
They did. Their eastern trade kept being florid all the way to Campoformio. What destroyed the republic was the constant wars and corrupted government.
>>950416
Why couldn't the compete with the shipping and warehousing of the French and British? I learned that the Portuguese and Dutch were really what did them in, not the French and British.
>>950419
t. mahmoud
>>950373
>Explorers for the Atlantic nations actually came from Italy
But their enterprises weren't financed by the Italian States.
They were smart and knew better, real money was going to be made elsewhere.
>Venice surely had the capital in the 16th century to invest in colonialism if they wanted to do so
By doing what?
Losing Cyprus - and basically the Eastern trade to the Ottomans, and continuing to fight the bloody Turks while the actual world powers on all sides keep growing bigger and richer? And the occasional fight with Austria - fuck those cunts too by the way - on top of that?
I'm starting to think Hitler had a better chance.
>>950416
>sailing to Amsterdam
You do it by staying close to the coast.
We're talking getting to the Americas and the Far East here.
>>950453
Was Spain really richer than Venice in 1492?
>>950458
The country was just reunited and got rid of kikes and moors, it's your 16th Century investor's Wonderland.
Iberia wa the place to be if you're an ambitious explorer wanting to go to India the hard way and get some imperialism going on.
>>950481
I get the feeling you're just pulling shit out of your ass, no offense m8.
>>950458
Colonization didn't start in 1492.
Besides, that's not the point. Spain has a vested interest in developing trade routes it has a gigìantic advantage in, Venice has no interest in developing routes which would be geographically hard to exploit and damaging to the ones already dominated.
>>950444
Because the French and British were large and powerful nation states that developed a financial industry which dominated the Ottoman state economically, giving them trade advantages no Venetian could ever hope to have.
Portuguese and Dutch warehousing didn't actually threaten Venetian commerce. The distance and danger and investment they both required to bring the same goods the Venetians could get through the Near East kept the Portuguese and Dutch from making anywhere near the same profits nor actually replace Venice's market share in the spice trade.
>>950453
>You do it by staying close to the coast.
That only works in the Mediterranean. The Bay of Biscay is not as friendly to coast skirting, and must be regularly crossed through deep ocean. Venice did not lack the means to get to the Americas or Far East if they wanted to, it just wasn't profitable for them as Americas/Far East colonization was done to specifically match the profitability of Venice's integration and domination of the traditional spice trade.
>>950488
1. I'm not saying Colonization started in 1492, but the search for superior trade routes did. Venice should have seen the future competition coming.
2. I was responding to the argument that someone made that Venice was poopy and Spain was the future, which seems completely made up. Besides the point, I'm sure those explorers would have sailed for Venice if Venice took the initative instead of Spain.
>>950485
They were building universities all over the place in the 13th Century, senpai.
>>950495
>2. I was responding to the argument that someone made that Venice was poopy and Spain was the future, which seems completely made up. Besides the point, I'm sure those explorers would have sailed for Venice if Venice took the initative instead of Spain.
Venice was losing to the Muslims, Spain won.
It's not made up and it's not rocket science. Spain did take the initiative for a reason. Connect the dots, Anon.
C'mon.
>>950491
Weren't the Venetians some of the pioneers of modern finance? When did they start falling behind in banking?
It seems to me like they just lost their competitive edge through complacency, but that's hard to believe.
>>950501
Also, Venice was losing land, Spain reunited.
>>950501
Again, what does them losing wars to the Ottomans matter to a mercenary explorer?
I think you are putting inordinate emphasis on the explorers when the real prime movers were the Catholic Monarchs. They were the strategists, not the explorers.
>>950502
At the end of the day, Venice could only draw on the financial capital of its city-state and very small hinterland, while London or Paris could draw upon the entire British Isles or France. And for a failing economy the size of the Ottoman Empire Venice couldn't match the loans British and French investors were offering the Porte.
For similar reasons Amsterdam's financial industry eventually lost ground to London and Paris.
>>950495
You don't get it. Unless you can just keep those routes secret (pro tip: you fucking can't), any kind of western exploration is far more harmful to Venice than it could ever be useful.
Making other countries aware that there's a way out of the venetian eastern monopoly is the issue here. Venice could not have done anything whatsoever to avoid the loss of economic relevance that came out of the western explorations.
>>950502
>When did they start falling behind in banking?
When the austrians nationalized half the banking system in the 19th century to exploit the insurance market. Venice never stopped being prosperous, it just didn't have the sheer size to be a world power after the 18th century. Same reason the dutch lost relevance pretty much.
>>950520
>Again, what does them losing wars to the Ottomans matter to a mercenary explorer?
Money.
Because fuck working for a State full of debts, bleeding land and shrinking on the world atlas every weekend.
How about one that grows in size and treasure instead?
>They were the strategists, not the explorers.
Strategists with money.
>>950547
Venice was still monstrously rich. They just chose not to make the move.
>>950501
>Venice was losing to the Muslims, Spain won.
It'd be a mistake to think Venetian loss of territory meant Venetian economic downturn. Venice's colonies on Crete, Cyprus, and even Negroponte had for a long while moved on from agricultural export to just function as waypoints for Venetian shipping. Ottoman conquest only cleared out the former, tied up in old Venetian aristocratic and colonial families who were regularly failing to begin with, and did not affect the latter.
For the same reason Spain's advance and domination of the Western Mediterranean did not mean Genoa's economic downturn. Instead Genoa quickly seized control of Hapsburg finances and became extravagantly wealthy through speculating on its New World shipments and shipping currency to the Netherlands.
>>950535
>You don't get it. Unless you can just keep those routes secret (pro tip: you fucking can't), any kind of western exploration is far more harmful to Venice than it could ever be useful.
>Making other countries aware that there's a way out of the venetian eastern monopoly is the issue here. Venice could not have done anything whatsoever to avoid the loss of economic relevance that came out of the western explorations.
That's very believable, but surely when they found out that the Spanish and Portuguese were actually having success they would have started worrying about what the next move was?
>>950547
>How about one that grows in size and treasure instead?
The larger Spain grew, the emptier its treasury became. Hell both Venice and Genoa grew richer the more they shrank.
>>950526
So Venetian financiers didn't actually draw capital from outside its borders? I thought their engagement in international trade with pretty much everyone would have made it easy for them to bring in outside capital, especially in the era before nation-states.
>>950557
The Spanish and Portuguese were not actually having any successes, at least not on the scale that Venice was having. Iberian exploration was very costly, and the overhead in shipping directly from the Indies was generally more expensive than the overhead from trading along the Silk Road.
>>950557
What would this move even be? You need to understand that the eastern trade was still more profitable to Venice than the western even after the full colonization of the west indies. There were individual venetian traders in the caribbeans, it just wasn't economically viable for the government to subsidize them.
>>950575
>Losing Cyprus = say goodbye to the Levant trade.
This is bullshit btw. The venetians were the main trading partnet of the ottomans.
>>950575
>Losing Cyprus = say goodbye to the Levant trade.
Absolutely not. Cyprus had to trade with Ottoman controlled Syria and Egypt to begin with, so how would controlling it be any different from just directly trading in Alexandria and Aleppo?
Venice was more likely to be raided by Rhodes/Malta than the Ottomans during peace time, considering most of their shipping business involved moving Ottoman goods and citizens between Ottoman ports for the Ottoman government and its merchants.
>>950594
If the Eastern trade was just fine why did they lose so much power? Thanks for engaging btw it seems like some of the premises I was working with were mistaken.
>>950594
>The venetians were the main trading partnet of the ottomans.
Is that why they fought so many damn wars?
>>950607
>If the Eastern trade was just fine why did they lose so much power?
Everybody was desperate to get India's shit without the Ottomans in the way.
Hence the comedically costly oceanic exploration.
>>950607
Not him, but:
>>950574
Venetian capital did not draw on outside capital because the major powers of Western Europe all began to form their own national banks, while Venice's major source of capital to begin with was in its shipping and ship insurance financial industry.
Once they could no longer compete for the best trade privileges in the Ottoman Empire, their shipping declined, which meant their finances further declined, creating a vicious cycle.
In the end, the age of the city-state was over. The age of the mercantile nation-state, was at hand.
>>950607
>If the Eastern trade was just fine why did they lose so much power?
Relativity. It's not so much that they lost power, as the opponents growing faster. You can't expect wee little Venice to compete with a consolidated France which is 20x bigger, or with that political monster called Carl V's empire. It's not that Venice shrank, it's that instead of going up against the duchy of Austria and the kingdom of Aragon, they had to compete with the unholy union of HRE and Spain, and a consolidated France.
>>950632
>Is that why they fought so many damn wars?
You now realize that the main trading partners of early modern Britain were Spain and France.
>>950632
>Is that why they fought so many damn wars?
And why they ended so many of them so quickly, and almost always with a return to regular trade relationships. Venetian-Ottoman wars were cases of Venice jettisoning off the unprofitable remnants of its Latin Empire adventures, not losses of substantial sources of revenue that moved its economy.
>>950652
But didn't the Venetian navy shrink to basically a coast guard for the city by the 18th century? That seems like an absolute, not relative, decline to me.
>>950676
>a coast guard for the city by the 18th century
Not even close.
It's true that relatively to the humonguous british, spanish and french navies it couldn't compare, but it was still pretty much dutch and portuguese sized.
This is what Napoopan seized from them and burned before giving the republic to Austria:
11 vascelli di linea da 70 cannoni;
10 vascelli di linea da 66 cannoni;
1 vascello di linea da 55 cannoni;
13 fregate da 42 a 44 cannoni;
2 fregate da 32 cannoni;
3 brigantini da 16 a 18 cannoni;
1 goletta da 16 cannoni;
2 cutter da 10 cannoni;
23 galee sottili;
7 galeotte;
7 sciabecchi;
5 feluche;
99 batterie galleggianti.
>>950676
The Venetian navy proper was always a coast guard for its Adriatic lake. Its true strengths came from wartime conversion of its shipping fleet into merchant marines, which by the 18th century had shrunk considerably for reasons listed above.
>>950373
Kids who idolize Byzantium. Just ignore them
>>950694
>11 vascelli di linea da 70 cannoni;
>10 vascelli di linea da 66 cannoni;
For what purpose
>>950755
Ottomans being ISIS before it was cool.
>>950755
They still went around rekting berbers from time to time.
>>950755
Back then, deterrence was important. Even if you didn't need to project power, you were still required to defend yourself.
So the high economic value Mediterranean islands in EU4 are just a meme?
>>950761
The Venetians hadn't fought the Ottomans in almost a century by the time Napoleon came by to take their stuff. Plus the Ottomans had ships with 100+ guns.
>>950805
What isn't a meme in a Paradox game?
>>950819
It was plausible that the islands were actually important for trading because of piracy necessitating the need for stations and military bases.
>>950814
The ottomans kept a line of battle of 20-35 ships throughout the 18th century, and they renounedly had shit ass artillery and training. The venetian navy was appropriately sized for holding them back.
>>950814
Kek actually the turkish navy of the 18th century was specifically designed to counter the venetian and russian navies. Ever since Lepanto, their fleet became completely defensive. It was by no means a naval power.
>>950373
>why the hate?
literally Constantinople desu.
>>950923
Venetians taking over Constantinople was probably the best thing that ever happened to it. They were literally the only hope against the Turks.
>>950930
Too bad the greeks got butthurt and wouldn't swear loyalty to a catholic basileus
>>950930
>Venetians """""""""""""taking""""""""""""" over Constantinople
funny way to say ransack
I'm no Byzanaboo, they were duplicitous shitty scumbags in an age of duplicitous shitty scumbags but the sacking of Constantinople rang the death knell and let the even shittier turks in.
>They were literally the only hope against the Turks.
Venice had one job after 1204, consolidating Constantinople as a Venetian holding or setting it up as a vassal trading republic
and it failed and left europe open to turkish invasion
and this is why I hate venice just as much as byzantium, so much wasted potential.
>>951260
They were already done for.
>>951260
How was taking a city of a nation that had fucked you around worse than when the inhabitants of that city slaughtered your people because they were jealous
Oh but it's different cause muh roman empire boo fucking hoo
>>951494
Shut up anon!
Just because the Greeks promised 200,000 silver talents and to convert to Catholicism then shut the gates, set the Venetians' fleet on fire, and tried to starve them all to death doesn't mean they were in the wrong!
J-Just having a bad day is all
>>951537
Those damn latins were doing better at business that the poor lazy greeks, it's not fair that the latins actually tried to work harder their woman and children deserved to be raped and murdered!
>>951551
the massacre of the latins is separate from 1204 you utter spenk
Stop trying to shift the topic from venice failing to capitalize on taking Constantinople and just sacking it.
>>951578
I know it's separate dickwad, i'm just pointing out what cunts the byzantines were
1204 was justified, it was a long time coming, greek fucks got what they deserved
>>951583
>>951583
>1204 was justified, it was a long time coming, greek fucks got what they deserved
A massacre of a few thousand merchants and their families does not justify sacking a city to the point it never recovered for 200 years and radically destabilizing/balkanizing the only political entity stopping your worst enemies from invading europe wholesale.
>>951578
The Massacre of the Latins sullied the western Christian relationship with Byzantium and there was still a lingering resentment among the Venetians for the 70,000 of their own that the Greeks killed.
>>951633
>A few thousand
No
Tens of thousands
And they also refused to pay debts, and tried to fuck over the Venetian/crusader force
Slimy greeks can get fucked, I recall hearing about times where they just tried to sell passing crusaders out to the mussies, and other times where they just leeched of crusading armies fighting off the muslims
>>951691
Based.
Bash the Byzantineboos. No one ever hears about the Massacre of Latins because everyone hates the Catholic Church and Crusaders and no one gives a shit about the Orthodox because they aren't a threat in the culture war.
>>952014
>meme reading of the marcian book
NEW AND FRESH
>>952076
Meme all Byzantineboo threads with this.
