What happend to the souls of aztec sacrifices?
Where they eaten/stoppend to exist? Or did they serve the gods they were sacrificed to?
>>1100878
They go to the afterlife. Its their blood that the Gods want.
The Aztecs believed that people had 3 'soul centers', one in the mind, one in the heart and one in the liver.
The mind's soul (Tonali), was linked to the highest heaven of the universe and it was directly related to the gods. Tonali comes from the etymological root heat (Tona) and the hair was the physical manifestation of this soul, just like the sun rays are the physical manifestation of the sun's Tonali.
The heart's soul (Teyolia) was related to blood, literally and figuratively, since it was related to the ancestors and the knowledge. This was the only soul that could travel to the afterlife and it was related to different heavens above the earth.
After the sacrifice the Teyolia was linked to a god, who eat it and absorbed it in the same way that the beings we eat becomes part of us. For example, it was believed that those who died sacrificed to the sun god, or on the battlefield, became hummingbirds and butterflies who accompanied the sun as bodyguards during his daily war against the night.
The liver's soul (Ihiyotl), as the name of this organ in English suggests, was related to life. It regulated the emotions of the persons, for example a coward person lacked Ihiyotl, an irascible person had a swollen Ihiyotl and act with the Ihiyotl was to be careful or make love to someone.
Sadly, there is not as much information about the afterlife of the Ihiyotl and the Tonali compared to the Teyolia.
All of these souls lived together a fourth 'soul', the body, which belonged to the Earth and was considered an extension of it.
For those who want to know more I highly recommend you Aztec Medicine, Health, and Nutrition by Bernard Ortiz de Montellano.
I think one of the best ways to have a closer understanding of these concepts and their perception of life is through their poetry:
What was it that your mind perhaps was finding?
Where was your heart?
That is why you give your heart to every thing;
without direction you take it; you go about destroying your heart.
On the earth, can you go in search of something? Can it be lived on the Earth?
Not for always on earth: just a little here.
Even though it be jade it breaks,
even though it be gold it breaks,
even though it be quetzal feathering it rips,
not for always on earth: just a little here. Do we speak something truthful here, Giver of life?
We only dream, we only get up from the dream.
It is only like a dream...
Nobody speaks the truth here... Are the men truth?
For so our chant is not truth anymore.
What is by luck standing?
What is to come out well? Do we really speak here, Giver of life...?
Even if emeralds, if fine ointments,
we give to the Giver of Life,
if with collars you are invoked, with the strength of the eagle,
of the tiger,
it could be that nobody says the truth on the earth. Ayocuan and Cuetzpal speak like this,
that truly know the Giver of Life...
I hear his word there, certainly his,
the rattle bird answers to the Giver of Life.
Go chanting, offer flowers, offer flowers.
Like emeralds and quetzal feathers, are his words raining.
Over there maybe the Giver of Life satisfies himself?
Is this the only truthful thing on the earth? We only come to sleep,
we only come to dream,
every each spring of the grass, that is how our making is,
it is not true, it is not true that we came to live on the earth,
it comes and sprouts, it comes and our heart opens corollas,
our body gives out some flowers, it wilts!
>>1101844
Forgot to mention, that image depicts the departure of the souls after death.
>>1101844
Distribution and localization of the vital forces in the body.
>>1102853
I know in some communities it's believed that spirits enter the joints of the bodies as they are like 'portals' or opening points especially for bad airs which causes sickness. The skin too is also somewhat vulnerable, with it being porous and all. Also have some erotic Aztec poetry to get the liver sensations going.
>>1103074
>>1103079
>>1103086
>>1103090
>>1103096
>>1103098
>>1103103
So being sacrificed was an honor, not a punishment?
>>1100878
Is this Codex Tovar?
>>1103321
Yeah, page 44.
The Aztecs believed that one's destination in the Afterlife was determined by their manner of death. As such, those that died in battle, in sacrifice, or those women who died in childbirth were held to ascend to the highest heaven-realm and dwell in the company of the sun god, and popular traditions held that they would reincarnate as butterflies or hummingbirds, leading supposedly leisurely lives eating sweet nectar and fluttering in gardens and fountains.
Those who died in to certain illnesses or in water-related deaths or by exposure were similarly held to ascend to the Tlalocan, the heaven-realm ruled by Tlaloc where they would spend the Afterlife resting in gardens cooled with soft drizzle and eating cacao.
Those who died due to old age or otherwise unremarkable deaths were said to go to Mictlan, which was a gloomy netherworld comparable to Hades. Not particularly bad, but not great either.
>>1103195
I would think an honor. Theres that story of that one Tlaxcaltec warrior who was offered a chance to live and fight as a soldier (after killing several warriors in gladiatorial combat) in the Aztec army, but he refused and preferred to be sacrificed.
>>1106871
More precisely he accepted to command one campaign and when it ended they offered him his liberty but he preferred to be sacrificed.
>>1101872
This is nice poetry, even translated
Got more?
>>1103396
"Those who died due to old age or otherwise unremarkable deaths were said to go to Mictlan, which was a gloomy netherworld comparable to Hades. Not particularly bad, but not great either."
its called Scotland.
>>1108001
>its called Scotland
>>1108001 It's quite nice here actually
>>1100878
No such thing as a soul
/thread
>>1109299
Edgy, are you one of those people who thinks we can upload our brain to a hard disk and live on?
Pretty sure Mesoamerican people had no soul. Pretty much demons.
>>1100878
Fun fact: The Aztec gods were quite smart and told the truth.
>>1109804
does this look like the face of mercy?
>>1109882
Yes
>>1109804
No dog companion for you in the Underworld.
What happened to the bodies? I've heard people say cannibalism was common in the new world. Did they just let most of them rot and sacrificed them for purely ceremonial/spiritual reasons, or was man-flesh a regular source of protein?
I've heard people say it might have been since they didn't have many farm animals (cows, sheep, goats, chickens, etc), so they just consumed people. Is that true? Also, if so, was it reserved for nobility or priestly classes or was it widely available to everyone?
>>1110746
They literally threw them in the source for drinking water
>>1110746
I think is important to consider that most of the sacrifices took place after the harvest, when food was plenty. For they believed they were in debt with the life for taking the life from other beings.
I think they certainly practiced ritual cannibalism, but it was only practiced by the warriors who captured the sacrificed enemies and some other nobles. It also followed very specific rules embedded in a complex ideological system, such as giving a small part of the right thigh from the most important sacrifices to the king.
Now, concerning about the first question, Bernardo Ortiz de Montellano provides a great explanation about the inefficiency of cannibalism as a way to compensate the lack of proteins:
>"Conservatively, we suppose that all the victims were males of 60kg with 16% of protein, a similar amount to the lean meat of pork and lamb (Consumer and Food Economics Research Division, 1963), and digestible in a 90%.
A skillful butchering would provide 60% of this meat (Garn and Block, 1970).
Thus, every victim would provide a total of 60kg*0.16*0.60*0.90= 5.18 kg.
If we also consider many documents of this practice, only the limbs were eaten and the total of protein would be 5.18*0.35=1.81 kg.
The same amount of protein can be found in a kilogram of fishes."
- Aztec Medicine and Health, and Nutrition, 1990
This being said, they had excelent sources of protein to make up for the lack of farm animals. For example, beef has 18.7% of protein and 18.2% of fat while pork meat has 17.5% 13.2% respectively (Bresani 1972). In comparision the meat of the most common insect, the grasshopper, had up to 30% of protein while some other insects such as jumiles and the red mezcal worms had up to 70% (Ramos de Elurdoy, 1982).
In terms of essential aminoacids, the quality of this meat is comparable to that of farm animals and it only shows an important deficiency in methionine and tryptophan.
>>1111963
>can be found in a kilogram of fishes."
in four kilograms of fish*
>>1111436
They would have been sick. Is there a source?
>>1111963
Don't forget beans+maize was a good source of protein too.
>>1110746
So, my history teacher told me this and please tell me if she was bullshitting:
If they died of causes other than sacrifice, they basically had the corpses live on with them, which means that they sat the corpse down at the tabe and cooked them meals and such. They even took them for walks.
I don't know if that's legit
>>1114509
My knowledge is limited, but I do know they wrapped the body in cloth and stood them seated upright.
>>1103074
It makes sense because they also said that the physical manifestation of the Ihiyotl was the breath and when a person died the Ihiyotl was disseminated through the winds. Thus, during the night, when the heat-Tonali was weaker, the air was more dangerous.
And I didn't expect that kind of romantic poetry from the Aztecs, it's awesome.
Thanks man.
>>1110746
All the professors in pre-columbian american history I have met actively and even furiously denied it. Other issues asked in the thread, I don't know, but they seem to be full and butthurt about this particular one.
>>1114509
I met a professor who witnessed something similar to this in person, but it was in the caribbean islands. He's area of expertise are caribbean blacks.
Probably nothing to do with aztecs.
>>1117260
There's probably more this one just managed to escape the censors of the Spanish clergy.
as long as we're discussing the Aztecs, anyone ever hear these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QuO09z-SI
>>1121515
Yes, unfortunately we don't know how these were played in music compositions. No known pieces survived the conquest. But poetry suggests that music accompanied it at times, And judging from what survived of Maya theater (Rabinal Achi), it was likely played in Aztec theater as well. From códices we know they were also played during festivals and on the battlefield. This guy is a Matlazinca native from Toluca, Mexico. He recreates musical instruments based on surviving examples and códices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OBU_jPYgSA
