Do you grieve the death of the classical world and the beginnings of Christianity? I'm reading about it in philosophy and history and it's hard to be impartial.
No, because all that was good was retained, except a few things in the West, which were recovered in the Renaissance.
I do.
Yes, although the classical world was already over as soon as Socrates started his bullshit about ignorance being the source of all evil. Christianity closing off the entire cultural world from anything other than divine justice just wrapped up the inevitable end of the classical world
>>934991
Ironically, it was the Greeks that fucked us over. Christian theology is hugely based Socratic ethics, dualism, and metaphysics. Eastern orthodoxy especially but also Roman catholicism studied and preserved Plato and Aristotle second only to the Bible. Something like Christianity was bound to happen.
>>936784
>>935020
>tfw I'll never go back in time and fuck married Roman qts
>>935020
I was reading that....
>>934991
>death of the classical world and the beginnings of Christianity?
These two did not coincide....
Christianity began years before and gave the classical world its final burst of energy.
Read St. Augustine's "City of God" its an incredible work about how the city of men reaped what they've sown and how the men of the city of God retain civilization, virtue, and morality.
It's an excellent read.
>implying secular philosophy classes aren't utter trash
Wait till they tell you it isn't wrong to present opinion as objective fact since they cant come up with a reasonable absolute.
>>936866
>Wait till they tell you it isn't wrong to present opinion as objective fact since they cant come up with a reasonable absolute.
i keked heartily because anon isn't wrong
t. sociology mjr
>>935011
We lost huge amounts of history and literature
>>936914
>history and literature
>>936933
I'm sorry you don't like dicks
>>934991
Kek Hellenic here, it's not over if you don't want it to be pleb. I hope Thanatos comes for you in your sleep.
>>936866
>>936890
pplease Anon, lead me out of the tyranny of the linguistic turn, and reveal the promised land of reason derived from absolutes
>>936965
there is no counter to this argument
>>937039
Not him but the promise land derived from absolutes is a Christian/Platonic idea. Atheism is just the secular version of it and really the more evolved form of. Enlightement atheism evolved from scholastic and platonic ideas about truth.
>>937185
not a christian but
>enlightened atheism
>implying anything without any sort of spiritual backing is feasible for a fulfilling existance
>>936914
>We lost huge amounts of history and literature
Oh, you wanted to read all my books? Groovy man...
They're full of ideas... dank philosophies... totally worth keeping on the shelf for generations.
>>934991
Meh, the best of antiquity was preserved in the middle ages anyways.
>>937202
>without any sort of spiritual backing is feasible for a fulfilling existance
You need the right kind of spirtualism though. Christianity is utterly nihilistic. The existence of an after-life exists because it cannot find a fulfilling existence on this life. The earth is basically a waiting room.
A proper spiritual system affirms what already exists, that includes embracing death, morality, suffering, and pain.
>tfw If only Julian the Apostate had lived a couple more decades none of this christfag bullshit would have ever happened
>>937626
Not sure he could have pulled it off, but it would have been interesting to see him try
>>937413
>Meh, the best of antiquity was preserved in the middle ages anyways.
That's bollocks. A lot of the best works never survived, ones that the "best" ones you refer to constantly quote or give references to.
>>937727
How do you know that they are the best works if you've never read them ? I was talking about what we know about antiquity and what we know about the medieval period, not unknowns that we have no epistemic right to be commenting on.
>>937594
But atheism gives you none of that. It's worse than Christianity in every regard because it uses hedonistic means to give ephemeral pleasure. At least Christianity gives people some sort of closure after death, atheism removes this and leaves them with an empty void. Why would I want to do good for everyone else if it's meaningless in the end?
If christianity dissapeared I'm sure we'd have a load of people whining how we don't have all of St. Thomas' Summa or St. Augustine's works.
>>939801
Because you're presumably a functional human being with basic empathy and social instincts.
>>939801
>it uses hedonistic means to give ephemeral pleasure.
And here I thought atheism was just a stance on the existence of deities.
>>937626
Christianity gave the emperors power from God. Diocletian was the last emperor to persecute Christians. He was also the father of the Dominate, the end of the Principate. Sooner or later Christianity would seize the empire for it was just too useful for the one, sole ruler.
>>939847
would have seized*
sorry
>>939801
>Why would I want to do good for everyone else if it's meaningless in the end?
But "good" is predicated on a specific kind of Christian "good".
If you do not do that specific Christian good you will burn in hell like the rest.
>>939801
>meaningless in the end
There's that christian nihilism.
>>937626
Julian didn't have popular support because his brand of paganism was too intellectual and esoteric for the masses. He recognized that a central church authority gave christianity a massive cultural advantage but trying to apply that to paganism was simply not going to work. The pagan beliefs and worldview just didn't arise with that in mind.
He was born too late. But at least he tried.
>>939880
Already said I wasn't Christian and even sad that Christianity was little better than atheism
>>939866
I wasn't arguing for Christianity at all.
>>939822
Spirituality is deeper than just deities anon
>>939818
Spirituality gives the layman purpose and a will to strive to be better. Why would the layman do anything past what's required if he has no drive in life? While I understand that a lot of other people find meaning in other values, spirituality gives purpose to almost everyone.
>>939801
>it uses hedonistic means to give ephemeral pleasure.
"All atheists are hedonists"
"Atheism is a system of ethics"
"Pleasure is inherently evil"
>At least Christianity gives people some sort of closure after death
If you are uncomfortable with mortality you don't need closure. You need to grow up. Pretending that death isn't a part of a life just makes it worst because it sets everyone up for a false hope.
>if it's meaningless in the end
This is the sickness of Christianity. It has taught you that anything temporal is meaningless. But all things are temporal so we see it is Christianity that is the cause of nihilism, not atheism. Society had no trouble finding meaning in temporal world in the past. Religions and philosophers before Plato all assumed the whole world was temporal and found that to be quite appealing, something can only be meaningful if it's changeable because than your influence matters.
Christianity and to a degree Platoism declared the whole world meaningles.
>Why would I want to do good for everyone else
Everyone already does. Because everyone has their own idea of 'good'. This is a child's question, for a baby incapable of making his own judgements and needs an adult to tell him "what is right and wrong and why it matters". This is why wars happen child because each side in the world has their own idea of good. And listen childen, once upon a time everyone was Christian. But people still argued about what was "Good" and there were more wars than than ever before. The Christian God failed to provide a "good for everyone"
>>940432
>Spirituality gives the layman purpose and a will to strive to be better. Why would the layman do anything past what's required if he has no drive in life? While I understand that a lot of other people find meaning in other values, spirituality gives purpose to almost everyone.
I dunno. I'm not spiritual in the slightest and have basically spent most of my adult life seeking personal improvement. Don't evaluate others by your own limitations.
>>940432
>Already said I wasn't Christian and even sad that Christianity was little better than atheism
He didn't say you were Christian. He said that was a Christian nihilism. You can be non-Christian and still influenced by Christian values.
>>940788
I was the guy saying "i'm not a christian but"
>>940785
>While I understand that a lot of other people find meaning in other values, spirituality gives purpose to almost everyone.
You're one of those who don't need that kind of purpose
>>940766
I don't really understand what you're getting at in that first little bit of 'tism
>If you are uncomfortable with mortality you don't need closure. You need to grow up. Pretending that death isn't a part of a life just makes it worst because it sets everyone up for a false hope.
edge.png, you may of gotten used to death, but most people don't like the concept of not existing. You've never experience a near death experience, hence why you hide behind a false sense of willpower
>This is the sickness of Christianity. It has taught you that anything temporal is meaningless. But all things are temporal so we see it is Christianity that is the cause of nihilism, not atheism. Society had no trouble finding meaning in temporal world in the past. Religions and philosophers before Plato all assumed the whole world was temporal and found that to be quite appealing, something can only be meaningful if it's changeable because than your influence matters.
>Christianity and to a degree Platoism declared the whole world meaningles.
I never said I'm Christian so I'm gonna pretend you never said this and we'll move onto bigger and better things
>Everyone already does. Because everyone has their own idea of 'good'. This is a child's question, for a baby incapable of making his own judgements and needs an adult to tell him "what is right and wrong and why it matters". This is why wars happen child because each side in the world has their own idea of good. And listen childen, once upon a time everyone was Christian. But people still argued about what was "Good" and there were more wars than than ever before. The Christian God failed to provide a "good for everyone"
>I don't understand how selflessness works
>>940788
sorry, misread you're post. Was focusing on the guy sperging out over Christianity. I would say I'm influenced by it the way that everyone is. We've all been raised around Christian values and Christianity isn't inherently bad on every single level, it just gets some stuff wrong. I really don't comprehend how what I'm saying is a form of "Christian Nihilism"
>>940986
Nothing wrong. Christianity gets nothing wrong. Christians get things wrong. Holy fuck this board is full of tards. It doesn't need a janitor; it needs a fucking flamethrower.
>>940978
>but most people don't like the concept of not existing
See this is the type of child like behaviour you are appealing to. There are a lot of things people do not like. But rather than trying to rationalize away these things it is best to take an approach to life that affirms things.
If you see death as something bad that's your problem.
>I never said I'm Christian
I never assumed you were. Everyone learns form Christian culture whether or not they are a part of it. 1,000+ years of it being a key part of society will do that
>I'm gonna pretend you never said this
There is no point in carrying on a discussion if you are going to just ignore what the other guy says. You might as well talk to a wall.
>I don't understand how selflessness works
It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with perspective. Everyone has their own, so everyone has their own 'good' and 'bad'. Even in the middle ages when everyone was Christian people still argued about what was "good" or "bad" and massive death occured in wars to settle this. People stabbed each other over the place of icons in churchs.
>>939812
>St. Thomas' Summa
We would still have aristotles logic, and plenty more of his books if the library of Alexandria had not been burnt down
>>937185
I know it's been a while since you posted, but are you saying that Christianity and Atheism share the same Platonic underpinnings? I don't quite follow.
>>941804
The specific Enlightenment positivist atheism shares the same Platonic underpinnings as Christianity.
Both are based on a search for an absolute guiding truth (one truth is found through the God the other natural). Both see the world as proggressing more towards perfection. You could even say both say an ultimate teleology for humanity: the scientific utopia vs heaven on earth.
>>935011
All the stuff we know of was retained - since it was retained.
It's hard to really define how much was lost, and even some well known ancients have sections of their works missing.
That said I'm personally not fixated on the idea that the collapse of the classical world was an irrevocable setback and that we'd be exploring the galaxy and shit if it hadn't happened.
