I realize this overlaps with politics, but to post in in pol, will never get a serious discussion. Disclaimer here-- I'm neither Jew, Muslim, nor Evangelical Christian. I'd like to consider myself a somewhat neutral observer.
I've gotten very interested in this question over the past few years (planning to write a Master's Thesis dealign with an aspect of it), and from what I can see, The Jews are in the wrong from every aspect.
Whether the Jews should ever have been given the land in 1948 and the...dubious way they went about getting the Balfour Declaration 30 years prior and the way they used Holocaust propaganda to promote it, all that aside-- right now, tIsrael has 600,000 settlers living on land that is, according to every other nation (even the US) and every Intl body of any significance, not their's to build on. It is occupied land.
I understand the idea of "greater Israel" and the bigger questions the Jews will be dealing with in the coming years as far as demographics (where they will need to become even more defacto apartheid than they are now), but will anyone here try to justify this to me on any basis? Not just Israel but the settlements in particular?
II neglected to add, at the first Zionist Conference in 1897 in Basel, Switzerland, Hertzel essentially laid out the Jewish plan very cynically: "The Question of the Orient is now facing the world, and the Great European war must come. when it does, we must be best positioned to take advantage of this and have a seat at the table. With my watch in hand do I await this terrible hour.."
FUCKING HOOKING SUCKING DUCKING LUCKING ROCKING MOCKING CUMMING DUCKING
I don't understand why there is so little interest in this topic. Have Jews pretty much realized that there is no logical defense for their behavior and so have stopped even trying to defend? Seems to be position they've taken on campuses.
Obama made a very, very interesting statement in Argentina that Israel is going to need to choose between being a Jewish State and being a democracy." I think that says it all.
With increasing Palestinian birthrates and stagnant Jewish birthrates (only ones having kids are ultra-orthodox, who don't serve in IDF) and the country going further and further right to where the Kahanites are now basically a legitimate party, in 20 years Israel with nuclear weapons is going to be more dangerous than North Korea.
It's a scary thought that someone like Netanyahu is in control of so many Nuclear weapons, but imagine how far Right those who come after him will be? How long before they try to retake the Dome of the Rock/Temple Mount (whatever you want to call it)?
Every nation that has the power and opportunity attempts to expand beyond its borders. It's a natural consequence of power and statehood. What's happening in the West Bank is less to do with Zionism specifically and more the political and military situation Israel found itself in post 1967.
>>933264
>I've gotten very interested in this question over the past few years (planning to write a Master's Thesis dealign with an aspect of it), and from what I can see, The Jews are in the wrong from every aspect.
If you're actually planning on dealing with it as an academic subject, you need to stop worrying about who is "wrong."
>>933311
They are a suicidal regime like the Nazis.
They would like things to get worse so they can justify a Palestinian genocide, however their insane religious fanaticism stops from being able to think how the rest of the Muslim world will do anything in it's power to wipe them out before they dominate the Middle-East.
>>933325
>Every nation that has the power and opportunity attempts to expand beyond its borders. It's a natural consequence of power and statehood. What's happening in the West Bank is less to do with Zionism specifically and more the political and military situation Israel found itself in post 1967.
But everything Israel did was at the expense of the USA. Look at the case of the USS Liberty, where they literally tried to sink the most advanced spy ship of the time (in intl waters) and blame it on the Egyptians. I didn't learn this until later, but 2 planes with nuclear weapons had been dispatched toward Cairo after this incident, and may well have started WW 3 if the surviving crew had not managed to rig an antenna and report who the guilty party was.
Also, in 1973, Israel would have been overrun if the US did not airlift them masses of weapons supplies that brought Cold War stock piles down to dangerously low levels. The at was also illegal at the time, because the Sec. of Defense at the time needed to specific approval of the Congress for such a move, which he did not have.
Why do all of Israel's misadventures in the Middle East have to be at America's expense? 72 times so far, the US has had to use veto powers to prevent a security counsel condemnation of Israel and possibly sanctions. You don't think this makes the average American who bothers to learn about it furious? THAT is the reason Bin Laden targeted the US on 9/11. Not bc "They hate us for our freedom." Christ I still genuinely laugh aloud thinking of that line.
>>933332
>If you're actually planning on dealing with it as an academic subject, you need to stop worrying about who is "wrong."
Obviously, one cannot address that in a formal academic setting. Which doesn't mean it doesn't weigh on my mind as I study the entire situation and, as any normal human being, allow the morality of what is going on there to impact my thought process.
>>933340
>They would like things to get worse so they can justify a Palestinian genocide, however their insane religious fanaticism stops from being able to think how the rest of the Muslim world will do anything in it's power to wipe them out before they dominate the Middle-East.
If they could get away with it, they'd completely genocide the Pals tomorrow. The ore I study this, the more I can't figure out the strategy vis a vis the Palestinians. It's clear Israel wants to Balkanize the bigger countries in the area in hopes of reducing their power, thus Iraq, Syria, the calls for an Iranian war (the only thing Obama got correct).
They don't want them to have their own state and they never will, which the settlements ensure. But that leaves either giving them full Israeli citizenship or a full apartheid state.
Don't understand the reasoning.
>it is occupied land
Whose, considering Palestine isn't a country? Jordanian land?
>(where they will need to become even more defacto apartheid than they are now),
Israel doesn't meet the criteria for being an apartheid, pretty laughable usage of that terminology considering you're supposedly writing an academic paper at such a high level.
All Israeli citizens have equal rights. Non-Israeli citizens [Palestinian passport holders] are not subject to Israel's law, aside from security related offenses.
>Not just Israel but the settlements in particular?
Settlements are on disputed lands. To begin with you have to define why they are illegal, and whose sovereignty do they breach. Is it "Palestine", the non-country? Why do you consider that land theirs to begin with?
Your research seems more accusatory and absolute than an actual analysis and pursuit of knowledge. If you're writing a paper on this subject and seriously need to ask basic questions like "what are pro-settlements arguments" you might want to reevaulate your subject.
t. ME history graduate
>>933352
>But everything Israel did was at the expense of the USA.
Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq might disagree with that assessment.
>Why do all of Israel's misadventures in the Middle East have to be at America's expense?
This is like asking "why do all of America's misadventures in the Middle East have to be at Britain's expense?" Allies work together, they coordinate and as a result the actions of one can color the other in the public's perception. But you have such a naive understanding of how international politics works that it's almost not worth addressing.
Do you think Israel's the only nation doing shady things that America has helped/helps/will continue to help? America gave a fuckton of weapons and money to Turkey while the latter was basically destroying its Kurdish population. America deliberately turned a blind eye to what Indonesia was doing in East Timor. And then there's pretty much every central and South American nation that has been under America's control at one point or another. America supports Israel because it has a strategic interest in doing so, and vice versa. If they think it's in their interests to fuck each other over they'll fuck each other over. This is how states work.
>>933411
>Allies work together
The US may spy on its allies but Israel spies on the US as much as China does
As an American citizen I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a country controlled by extremist Jews is dictating my future
It's that simple
>>933419
If you really think that Israel is the dominant partner then you are deluded.
>>933411
>Do you think Israel's the only nation doing shady things that America has helped/helps/will continue to help?
Anon, 80% of the Us foreign aid budget goes to Israel. None o fthe other nations you've mentioned have ever given us a Jonathan Pollard, nor had over 80 intelligence agents deported in the wake of 9/11.
It's an established fact that Mossad agents were living on the same block as Mohamed Atta, and, according to the FBI, knew that 9.11 was happening but allowed it to happen because it was seen as the "Pearl Harbor-like event" mentioned in the paper by Jewish neo-cons on "The project for a New American Century" that would be beneficial to Israel.
Do you think I'm making up all these Israeli ties to foreknowledge of 9/11? Here are a series of Foc News segments from October, 2001 (most of which ended up not airing after the ADL and Abe Foxman pulled some strings). If this were any other nation, the ambassador would have been expelled and it might even have been taken as an act of war:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVXrvOMPS2o
>>933426
>If you really think that Israel is the dominant partner then you are deluded.
no, friend. During Israel's PM elections, all their candidates come before what the international press calls a "cattle call" where the Jewish elites evaluate a candidate's suitability for President.
Can you tell me the last time your PM candidates went on national TV in your nation to tell the world how much they love Christians and all they would do for us? Israel has no manpower, no resources, not a strategic location. There is literally NOTHING that the US gets out of the deal with Israel. It's completely a drain on us, everyone knows this.
Not only that, we also have to bribe the Egyptians to make sure they keep the other side of Gaza-- the world's largest open air prison-- closed up. And then in your nation, YOU are allowed to profile, have Jewish only streets, neighborhoods, etc...
If the US ever tried this, it would be a (Jewish) lawyer who would be first to sue. Lol, look at how Netanyahu criticized Trump for wanting a "temporary ban on muslims." the hypocrisy is really incredible.
>>933459
>None o fthe other nations you've mentioned have ever given us a Jonathan Pollard
How dare Israel spy on America! Can you imagine if America did the same thing? Just spy on it's allies like France and Germany and the rest of NATO? Spying is a terrible thing that literally no other country does aside from Israel.
>9/11 conspiracy bullshit
Cool steel beams, bro.
>>933486
>How dare Israel spy on America! Can you imagine if America did the same thing? Just spy on it's allies like France and Germany and the rest of NATO? Spying is a terrible thing that literally no other country does aside from Israel.
Difference being, the Us doesn't get 4.0 billion dollars outright from nations it spies on, plus tens of billions in subsidies, grants, loan forgiveness, etc.. Without US support, Israel would collapse tomorrow.
As far as "9/11 conspiracy," Israeli foreknowledge on 9/11 is an established fact. I provided a link to the Fox news report. I'd be happy to provide numerous other links (from REAL news sites like NBC, CBS, CNN, even Haaretz) that Israeli intelligence had foreknowledge of 9/11 and had a massive spying program here, many of were claiming to be "art students" and ran kiosks in shopping malls selling toys called "zoomcopter." This is all documented in the MSM, you need only look.
If I'm lying, you come back and show everyone how I'm lying. I linked to a Fox News video above detailing the Israeli spying. Are you suggesting the video is a fake? did I make it in my basement with editing software? Or is it real, but it's a conspiracy fy Fox News (who are VERY anti-Israel, of course, given that 80% of their base is Evangelical Chrstian).
So which is it? The Fox News video is there for all to see. I can find you the information on "Urban Moving and Storage," the workplace of the famous "dancing Israelis" whose owner went back to Israel the first day flights out of the US were allowed.
All of this is there for people who wan to look. It's not a conspiracy, hate to break it to you.
(the jew will ignore this bc he knows he's actually run into someone who knows that which he speaks about...won't expect to hear Chaim answer any of this.)
Here is a shorter version o the Fox News video on Israeli spying and foreknowledge of 9/11. Are you alleging the video is not real?
Or that Fox News is just making up all this stuff? Let's be clear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbkQddEDPs0
>>933372
Whoa hold on there, mate. They don't want to genocide the Palestinians, perhaps expand their territory but what you've claimed here is a leap to far.
During the past several conflicts Israel has warned the civilian populations within the targeted combat zones profusely to move and even made attempts to evacuate Palestinians before the real fighting began, all of that at great cost to the Israelis. If that leads you to believe they want to genocide Palestine then you've swallowed a lot of the anti-insraeli rhetoric.
In the context of Israeli today a lot of their past atrocities are irrelevant, the average israeli isn't even a zionist anymore and only considers themselves ethnically Jewish.
>>933507
Not the guy you are talking to you but did you miss the part about how Israel is of strategic importaince. A few billion dollars a year in foreign aid is peanuts to something as big as the US government and that investment maintains a country that continually keeps the Arab nations in check.
And about the 9/11 stuff. I can't really say if one nation knew about it before hand, but the amount of evidence the US knew about it is equal to or greater than the amount of evidence Israel knew about it. I am not saying it's an established fact that 9/11 was something the US intentionally let happen but countries are shady. It wouldn't be the first time a country has dilberetly allowed an enemy to attack something as a pretense for war. The idea that Israel runs the world is retarded though, they can bearly keep the Arabs off their back.
>>936315
>peanuts to something as big as the US government
Yeah, the Fed can just keep printing money, I guess.
>>936335
You realise the US doesn't just throw money at Israel to play with, right? The foreign aid is designed to purchase American-made equipment. Furthermore, you're completely off on the statistics at hand: the foreign aid budget puts more money into Afghanistan (4533.51 million) than Israel (2961.04 million), so your '80%' statistic is completely false.
>>936537
I'm not the same anon
>>936542
Regardless, to suggest the foreign aid given to Israel is a serious fiscal issue to the USA is false, and the idea that the Fed's money printing is unsustainable based on that foreign aid is also false.
>>936315
>that continually keeps the Arab nations in check
From what? What the hell is Israel doing to keep Arab nations "in check"? Because whatever it is I can assure that that it is not working.
>>936552
I didn't suggest either of those things in my first post
>>933264
>I'm neither Jew, Muslim, nor Evangelical Christian. I'd like to consider myself a somewhat neutral observer.
juice fag detected
>>933352
your statement on 1973 is kinda inaccurate. Israel knew ahead of time that they were going to be attacked but they got talked out of doing a preemptive attack with the promise of US aid. if they had attacked before egypt and syria they would have quickly won just like in 1967 but they and by extension the US would have looked bad internationally
>>933311
Israel, just make distinction between jews and israel please.
Israel is a Jewish state and all non Jews should go to the other Arab countries.
>>936568
Israel has been pretty good at keeping the Arabs from getting nukes. that's easier for them to do within the context of their self-defense than it would be for America to do in the context of "we don't want oil producing nations to get too independent."
If you'd like to learn how state power is actually used, I would recommend reading Hegemony or Survival. It goes in depth in explaining America and Israel's relationship and just what the two parties get out of it.
