>be losing
>declare war on America
lmao
FUCKIN TWICE
Enough with the Mosley threads
>>924532
The big H was never a particularly bright man
>>924532
pure hubris.
>>924532
JEWISH PROPAGANDA DELETE THIS
>>924654
Kinda. Germany didn't really have any obligation to declare war on the USA besides the alliance.
>>924654
Japan was actually pretty damn smart
>wait for Hitler to start a war in Europe
>powers have their hands full
>launch a giant attack to take all the euro owned land in Asia while attempting to completely destroy Americas navy at the same time
>>924659
t. eternal hun
>>924663
Germany and Japan has a defensive alliance.
>>924683
Yeah, smart. Really worked out well for them.
>>924760
If Pearl Harbor had gone well they would've been in a good position
>>924683
Too bad they were incredibly stupid with their incredible sense of self worth and they honestly thought they could beat America in a war even though all signs points to that being retarded
It was a great plan to remove most meddling out of Asian countries, but then they were far too ambitious which led to them getting nuked
>>924768
The Japanese were always too ambitious for their own good. They were also really intelligent though, which could mix well with their willingness to take huge risks. The Pearl Harbor operation was a huge undertaking and the fact that it happened at all is pretty amazing. Had the attack been executed correctly and with the right timing the whole Pacific Fleet of launching offensives against Japan from then on out.
>>924768
muh divine wind
muh fighting spirit
>>924766
What the fuck didn't go well at Pearl Harbor?
>>924866
WE NOT HAVE ANY KATANA BOMBS TO DROP ON PERR HARBURU SUPRISE ATTACK
WINGS WERE ONRY FORDED 100,000 TIMES AND NOT MIRRION OF TIMES DUE TO CHINESE PIGUS
SAMURAI NOT SHOW UP BECAUSEWHITE DEVIR KILL SAMURAI
>>924866
They didn't destroy the carriers because they weren't in port
>>924878
>>924881
What would that change exactly?
Japan would some prep time before getting BTFO all the same, most likely nuked 10 times harder and likely to be divided like Germany, because USSR would have time to invade Hokkaido and probably Honshu as well.
>>924900
The US would've had zero naval power in the pacific
>>924918
Those ships weren't planted into the ocean by Allah.
They were built by Americans and they made many, many more of them during that war.
As I said, it would only delay the inevitable, maybe even more bizarre end of the Japanese Empire and probably spawned shit like communist north Japan.
>>924829
BONZAI
>>924918
They would just move the carriers from the Atlantic fleet
Would WW2 have gone differently if Japan deployed Samurai against the Marines during the island hopping phase of the Pacific Theater?
>>924934
You can do that for smaller ships, but aircraft carriers take a very significant amount of time. Meanwhile, your enemy is acquiring more and more shipyards and building up just as much
>>924939
With the atlantic fleet split protecting shipping lanes and trying to fight the Japanese, I think the nips would have had the upper hand. Not to mention that the Japanese had quite a nice navy
>>924946
>implying they didn't
>>924952
>You can do that for smaller ships, but aircraft carriers take a very significant amount of time
Dude please, fucking stop. United states Built 101 Aircraft carriers, 8 large battleships, 48 Cruisers and 349 Destroyers during WWII.
Japan built 18 carriers, 2 Battleships, 2 Cruisers and 25 Destroyers.
They were so fucking outclassed, that their grandchildren and writing light novels where Japan wins the war out of sheer butthurt.
>>924963
>you will never fight a samurai with your bayonet while your buddy unleashes American gasoline on Japanese scum in a pillbox
Why live
>>924986
>101 Aircraft carriers
Light carriers are different from fleet carriers
IJN had 10 at the beginning, US had 3 in the Pacific, presumably a similar number in the Atlantic
Only like 30 Essex class carriers were built before they were obsolete (early 1950s), it takes for fucking ever to build a carrier
There's no need to get so aggressive
>>925021
>There's no need to get so aggressive
Sometimes there is. that time is now, if you fail to acknowledge something even overly proud Japos got through their skulls before the war was over.
They fucked with something way above their weight class and paid dearly for it.
>>925004
you might even have got to take home a complimentary gook sword
>>924952
>You can do that for smaller ships, but aircraft carriers take a very significant amount of time.
Good thing there were like 24 Essex-class fleet carriers that were being built already in 1941. The first of these new carriers were commissioned in late 1942.
>>925041
I'm playing devil's advocate. Could Japan have won a protracted war? No. Could Japan have forced the US to stop messing with their Chinese ambitions if the US fleet was completely dominated? I don't know
>>925021
>IJN had 10 at the beginning,
IJN did not have 10 fleet carriers at the beginning. They did not have 10 fleet carriers at any point.
>>924952
>Meanwhile, your enemy is acquiring more and more shipyards and building up just as much
Japan wasn't acquiring any shipyards and they weren't building up just as much as the US navy. Not even close.
>>925066
Apologies, I misread. They had 2 fleet carriers
>>925073
No, they had 6 fleet carriers.
>>924986
You do realise that America was able to produce so much because they had the upper hand, had America lost everything at pearl harbour, then they would have had to go on the defensive, and its hard to build something like an aircraft carrier if the Japanese are fucking invading your port. Stop it with your "There has never been a chance of America losing any war ever" meme, its diminishes the military achievements of what I presume is your nation.
>>924952
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/us_fleet.htm
Aircraft carriers may take time, but the US build an absurd amount of them during the war.
The worst thing that could've happened to the US is if Japan bombed their fuel reserves, it potentially could have lost them the aircraft carriers without a vital port to refuel at, Japan only ever intended to keep the US out of the Pacific but I doubt Japan would have been in a feasible position to bomb the west coast as some had predicted.
Churchill was also adamant that the US keep their interest in Europe. Losing Britain was far worse for America than letting Japan control the west Pacific rim
>>924881
Are you suggesting the US knew an attack was coming?
>>925081
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dkaku-class_aircraft_carrier
They had 2 of these, which held a similar (slightly less) number of aircraft to the Essex class
>>924532
America was all but already in the war on the side of the Allies by that point. Hitler hoped that by siding with Japan officially against America that Japan might be able to help out with an invasion of eastern Russia.
>>925072
>Japan wasn't acquiring any shipyards
FFS, they were not acquiring these seaports because they not dominate the American navy, but what the other guy is trying to tell you is that IF they succeded, if they basically crushed the American navy at Pearl Harbour and some of the more crucial of the following battles (if these battles then would even take place) then they would have taken seaports to make sure America did not rebuild. This is a hypothetical, you idiot.
Holy shit, why does Japan always hijack WWII threads.
>>925084
It's hard to build something like an Aircraft carrier if the Japanese are fucking invading your port.
Well not really because you build boats in a shipyard, not a port.
>>925093
If I remember correctly, it was basically just luck, they did not happen to be in port that day.
>>925084
>and its hard to build something like an aircraft carrier if the Japanese are fucking invading your port
You realize Hawaii is in the middle of the Pacific, like in , half way to the west coast, and even mounting a substantial attack there was a fucking miracle for Japanese, right?
They had no way in hell to threaten the mainland without compromising their position everywhere else.
>>925113
Personally, I just find the history of the Japanese Empire interesting
>>925097
They had 6 fleet carriers in 3 divisions. Akagi and Kaga in the 1st carrier division. Hiryu and Soryu in the 2nd carrier division. Shokaku and Zuikaku in the 5th carrier division. They all carried about 70 aircraft and could do 30+ knots.
>>925084
> its hard to build something like an aircraft carrier if the Japanese are fucking invading your port
Japan was never invading a US port, and they were definitely not invading East coast cities where the Essex-class carriers were built.
>>925111
It's a retarded hypothetical. Even if they sank the island of Oahu itself, they did not have the capability to capture any American shipyard.
>>925084
Because the Japs were set on Invading America, right?
Not just ideally stalling them enough to take white people lands and suing for peace afterwards?
>>925136
I do too, but that's because I'm a weeb. But c'mon, some people don't want to hear about Japan in a Hitler Thread.
>>925153
They could barely take undefended Pacific islands in their backyard. They could NOT take anything in the Indian Ocean or on Australia. They were not capable of even sailing within a 100 miles of California, let alone Norfolk, Philadelphia, or Newport News.
>>925149
No obviously not, but I mean they did want to be the dominate navy in the pacific, right?
>>924738
>defensive
Yeah, that doesn't cover random, reckless aggression that you didn't even notify the other party of.
>>925107
He was a fucking retard if he thought that would happen. The Japs kept trying to get a foot into Russia from Manchuria in minor clashes and were wrecked hard. Japan were a naval power like Britain, they'd be fucking useless in a land war against Russia
>>925164
I just realised that I have no idea where any american shipyard is located, I should stop drinking and abandon the thread.
>>925172
Germany declared war against the US because it really desperately wanted to shoot American ships that were supplying Britain with weapons and hunting German subs. They were already in a war with the US. The declaration just formalized what was a de facto war and allowed Germany to start its uboat campaign without the stigma of an unrestricted submarine warfare.
>>925176
>I'M SMARTER THAN EVERY HUMAN WHO HAS EVER LIVED BECAUSE I READ A HISTORY BOOK
Hindsight is 20/20.
>>924878
holy shit
>>924866
They also didn't break the white doughy American fighting Spirit, as they had expected to.
>>925123
Are you suggesting it was luck that the Honolulu Advertiser warned a week beforehand that there might be an attack?
>>925260
>Are you suggesting it was luck that the Honolulu Advertiser warned a week beforehand that there might be an attack?
Hawaii was under war alert and being heavily reinforced with troops and aircraft so no, it was probably not luck that a newspaper might think a war might happen sometime in the future.
>>924918
The Yanks had more carriers.
>>925272
Not in the Pacific
>>925277
they were built on the east coast anyway
>>925208
Christ, get your pretentious little cock out of your arsehole. I don't care that you think I'm some ignorant little cunt, how about you challenge my argument and engage in historical discussion instead of crying hindsight like a little bitch? If you were in Hitlers position surely you could've seen it made no sense? They were already fighting China for like 5 years. Would he have assumed the Japanese stupid enough to take on another goddamn country?
>>925277
Even if the US had to rush Yorktown, Hornet, and Wasp to the Pacific, what would a few months of non-intervention by the USN have done for Japan? As it was, the USN did not rush over and try to stop Japan's land grab. The first battle took place in April, five months after Pearl Harbor. Japan expanded to the DEI and Singapore and could not do more despite the USN doing nothing. This was not because of American naval power, but because of their own limitations.
>>925282
Not even that guy but how do you expect people to have a historical discussion with you when you know no history?
> If you were in Hitlers position surely you could've seen it made no sense? They were already fighting China for like 5 years. Would he have assumed the Japanese stupid enough to take on another goddamn country?
Except Germany was urging Japan to attack the US.
>>925288
I think it's been well-established that Japan wouldn't win a lengthy war. The question is whether or not the US would accept peace if their fleet was BTFO
>>925277
Not like that mattered since they didn't do shit for 5 months after Pearl Harbor anyway. More than enough time to move more over there.
Even if Enterprise and Lexington had been in Pearl Harbor, Saratoga was at the west coast so the attack wouldn't even have gotten all the carriers.
>>925297
Probably not since they had no reason not to want revenge for what the majority of them would perceive as a cowardly sneak attack.
>>925161
Revenge for the History Channel.
>>925297
What makes you think 3 carriers more or less would suddenly change US's position? US mainland is untouchable. There is absolutely no urgency. An entire new navy is being built and those new ships are scheduled to start coming on line in 1942. It's not exactly a desperate position to be in.
>>925297
>The question is whether or not the US would accept peace if their fleet was BTFO
We are talking about a country that razed two countries for losing two tall houses.
What the hell do you think?
They were already building up a massive Navy, Japanese just gave them excuse to go into overdrive.
>>925311
I'm trying to understand their thought processes. I understand that the US was embargoing them because of China, but what is the logic behind not slowing down their landgrabbing to save their country?
>>925330
US was not embargoing them because of China. China war started in 1937, and Manchu incident was 1932. US did not suddenly realize that Japan was up to no good in 1942 after 10 years of that shit. US sanction and embargo was Japan was explicitly in reaction to Japan taking French Indochina.
>>925330
The Japanese thought process? It was being driven by overconfident militarists with outdated concepts of strategies and a sense of divine destiny.
Their civilian government was kept in the dark by the Army and Navy, respectively, and ministers those branches did not approve of were assassinated.
At the same time the Army and Navy kept each other in the dark often because of fierce branch competition.
A good example is the IJA planning defensive operations in 1944 without being aware that the Combined Fleet had been annihilated by the Americans because the IJN didn't want to tell anyone.
Japan's leadership was literally fucking itself almost worse than the Americans could. The greatest question is how much of a difference their efforts in the war could have been had their Army and Navy been working together pragmatically.
>>925370
>The greatest question is how much of a difference their efforts in the war could have been had their Army and Navy been working together pragmatically.
I'm not sure how this is even interesting, let alone the "greatest question." You think the IJA would suddenly be able to pull miracles if they were told the IJN was annihilated?
>>925084
They already WERE on the defensive the entire time. Hence all the fucking about with the Doolittle raids. The Americans had already figured out that chances are, if they rushed the Japanese with everything they had locally, they'd have a pretty good chance of winning. But it was more of a 50:50 sort of deal given how far away Japan was. It'd all been gamed out before the war. Either way, they knew time favoured them, so they played marco polo for a few years before the real hammer blows started to fall. And even before their industrial advantage kicked in, they'd decisively defeated the Japanese at Coral Sea and Midway, with the stuff the had lying about and available at the time.
>>925381
Presumably the cooperation would not start in 1944 but long before when it could, you know, affect something.
>>925362
Weird, I don't know where I read that it was China.
The question still stands though
>>925370
I was under the impression that the upper leadership wasn't confident at the start of the war. I have a hard time believing that rational people would start something they knew they couldn't win under any circumstances
>>925395
What would it affect? The cooperation was good enough to rush DEI and the Philippines. Meanwhile no amount of interservice cooperation could save them in their 1942 carrier battles or in their hilarious failures in southern pacific islands.
>>925399
>I have a hard time believing that rational people would start something they knew they couldn't win under any circumstances
You might want to get familiar with Operation Barbarossa
>>925416
But Germany thought Russia would collapse within weeks.
>>925399
The Japanese thought that they could get the Americans to sue for peace and they'd let them keep the territories they took in the first six months because they didn't think Americans had the stomach for a ling drawn out fight.
>>925172
I know, I was referring to when he said "besides the alliance", so I was saying that it was a defensive alliance so Hitler actually had no obligation.
>>925399
The Japanese military leaders weren't really rational. What they assumed, or told themselves, is that the Americans wouldn't have the stomach for a fight.
>>925413
>What would it affect?
A multitude of things, especially those needed in the type of war they were getting into (logistics, technology, ciphers, etc). The IJA and IJN each did their own secret radar program, used their own ammunition that wasn't interchangeable, and more.
There's a lot cooperation could have impacted.
>>925422
and Japan thought America would back the fuck off? *draws katana*
>>925424
>Americans
>Suing for peace
HAHAHAHAHAHA
>>925458
Were you under the impression that I said it was a realistic idea?
>>925282
Why the hell are you even this salty?
>>925458
>>Americans
>>Suing for peace
>HAHAHAHAHAHA
I'm pretty sure this is why it was a bad idea, m80
Where exactly were the nazis losing before the US stepped in?
>>924654
even without Japan bombing Pearl harbour Germany needed to destroy American shipping to sever the Atlantic supply route to the UK
>>926637
Everywhere. They lost to Britain, and they were losing to the Soviet Union.
>>926786
>They lost to Britain
bullshit, they spared Britain
>>926637
Stalingrad, Africa,
Hell despite what America thinks, the British wernt overly cautious dumbasse's sipping tea. Once they realized hitler was stupid enough to ignore Malta and refused to give rommel the 2-3 more Panzer divisions he needed, all they had to do was bleed Rommel till it was too late.
Stalin also learnt to trust his generals. If Manstein hadn't sacraficed 6th army when he did, army group South would of been annihilated, and all of the Russian front would of collapsed.
War in the european theater would of been over by 44 at the latest.
>>926786
>they lost to Britain
They couldn't invade britain but I'm not sure if pushing them out of mainland europe, norway and almost africa before the US showed up counts as losing.
>>926797
And britian proceeded to fuck up Hitler's plans by raping the Italians.
What was it? 10,000 Italians captured for less then 500 Brit casualties?
Also, the Brits/Canadians were great at U-boat hunting
Germany and Japan could have defeated the Soviets if they really acted as allies.
>>924683
Fighting America was more of an act of desperation. America pretty much forced their hand with the oil embargo. If they didnt act they would have run out of oil and their oil reliant fleet would be useless.
>>926799
>the British wernt overly cautious dumbasse's sipping tea
Well, we were. But there was a plan.
