Is the Judeochristian God really just an old desert tribe War god that was incorporated into the Jewish theology?
>>913521
Christians don't have the same God as Jews.
>>913521
There is speculation the Jewish religion was Henotheistic before it became monotheistic. The fact that Phoenician lore still makes its way into the Torah also points to that.
>>913549
Mental gymnastics my YHWHist friend
Read A History of God, and if you want more, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism.
Not really. It would be all of the pagan gods combined.
Abraham had extensive knowledge of the pagan religion, he wasn't that lazy.
>>913567
>speculation
Y-you remember 1 Kings 18, right?
>“I have not made trouble for Israel,” Elijah replied. “But you and your father’s family have. You have abandoned the Lord’s commands and have followed the Baals. Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel’s table.”
King Ahab more or less rejected YHVH in favor of other local godforms, and after Elijah won the sacrificial contest later in the chapter took all the prophets of Baal (probably Baal Hermon) and Asherah (YHVH's former wife, probably a localization of Ishtar) to a river valley for some good ol' Biblical retribution.
>>913707
I was thinking more of the theory Judaism came from the Aten cult.
>>913567
>There is speculation the Jewish religion was Henotheistic before it became monotheistic.
Toplol, this is "speculation"? Literally the first Commandment implies there are other gods, else what the fuck would god be jealous about?
>>913722
Eeeeh, it certainly contributed after cultural contact; Temple of Set has some good commentaries on the trajectories of Egyptian influence on middle Hebrew mysticism but I'll always maintain that the Hebrew system of tribal mysticism was a homegrown phenomenon that, like every other religious system ever, became modified as contact was made with other groups and peoples.
Hell if we're going to go that far RE: admixture of religious systems, Hebrew mystical elaborations have stupid amounts in common with the Hindi Nath cult, and to a lesser extent forms of Nepalese tantra.
>>913549
if you're gnostic, sure. otherwise you're just being retarded
>>913521
El is the greater God of the Canaanite pantheon, Yaweh is the God of War
Israelites follow Yaweh but aknowledge the other gods too
Stories of Abraham being led by El to establish Israel
Stories of Moses being led by Yaweh to establish Israel again
By the time the kingdom of Israel was a thing, Yaweh was the one god they worshipped most (although it was possible if not likely they were still polytheistic)
Around 600BC, according to prophets, the view shifted from Yaweh being an angry punishing God of war to Yaweh just wanting people to make peace with each other, and not liking rituals if the morality isn't there
It's during & after the Babylonian exile that the view that Yaweh was the sole God became solid too, effectively turning Yaweh into the character El originally was
By the time people started following the cult of Christ 600 years later, the view completely shifted for those people, from Yaweh being the only God who was a nice guy but only favoring the Jewish, to God really just being God, no YHWH mentionned, just the Father and the Son (Jesus), even nicer guy too
This eventually became the Trinity: the Father, Son & Holy Spirit
Basically:
>El is the greater god of the Canaanite pantehon who gets along with everyone, Yaweh is the god of war and thunder
>the Israelites first worship Yaweh but then more or less merge him with El
>later, Yaweh's personality is changed, basicaly making him El in everything but name, and also making him the only God to exist
>later, in the sect of the Cult of the Martyr, God is believed to favor everyone now, not just the Jewish, and to have sent his most favored prophet down to the world to spread the message he wanted
>this becomes Christianity, with there being no YHWH or El, just God the Lord, which is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
>>913689
Karen Armstrong is good but her bias is distracting at times.
>>913726
It's "speculation" because, for the longest time, this had a monotheistic interpretation ("only worship me, ignore other gods" = because they are fake)
It's still pretty obvious by now that early Israel was polytheistic
>>913751
The God of Abraham is different from the God of Moses?
>>913567
Angels fight the servants of other gods in the old testament
>>913767
The God of Abraham speaks to him nicely, guides and supports him, and acts more like a friend than an angry ruler
The God of Moses messes with the Egyptian to prove his wrath before commanding Moses to genocide a bunch of people
Biblically they are obviously the same, but it's a decent guess to think that both stories were not written with the same idea of who God is, supported by the fact he's callled "El" or "the Yaweh God" at times, not just "Yaweh"
>>913767
eh, sorta. the name of "God" revealed to Abraham according to Exodus was El Shaddai. In Moses's encounter with "God" he reveals his true name as Yahweh and says that he was known previously as El Shaddai. This probably shows that the writer was trying to convince people in his time that El Shaddai and Yahweh were the same god
>>913521
>old desert tribe War god
No
>old desert tribe god
Yes
>>913751
>kingdom of Israel was a thing
To sort of be pedantic, the Kingdom of Israel (at least according to the Bible) was ruled by kings that frequently worshiped or favored other gods. The Kingdom of Judah was supposedly the one that worshiped Yahweh the right way.
Of course, this is likely historical revisionism. As you mentioned, the current version of Judaism was basically the result of the Babylonian exile. Yahweh as the one god of Israel, and the idea of a nation united under his worship is entirely the result of identity-building while in exile, from what archaeological and textual sources tell us.
>>913777
>The God of Abraham speaks to him nicely, guides and supports him, and acts more like a friend than an angry ruler
Also, the direct interaction with Abraham as opposed to Moses, who interacts with God in a very indirect manner is a big hint that Abraham was probably a pagan.
>>913751
>Yaweh is the God of War
Yaweh originates in Edom as a weather god and was not part of the indigenous Canaanite pantheons but was later adopted by the Hebrews and assumed the traits of the Canaanite gods such as El
>>913786
Yaweh was a war god
But the Jewish YHWH is more like a mix of Yaweh and El than just a slightly retconned Yaweh, and his personality shifted from being more like Yaweh's to being more like El's over time
By the time Christianity became more organized, it shifted from YHWH to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, due to the gospel stories and the Church's doctrines turning the cult into a very different religion
Some 600 years later, Islam's interpretation of God would be a little similar to how early Israelites did it - taking Allah, the greater God of the local pantheon, and turning him into the one and only God to exist (who also doesn't really have a name, much like in Christianity, since al-Lah is just "the God")
The Trinitarian theology was rejected, instead making it a mish-mash of Jewish and Christian theology - Allah is the real untouched version of YHWH, Jesus was the messiah but not divine, the Holy Spirit is angel Gabriel
In the end the Abrahamic God timeline kind of goes like this:
>El at times
>Yaweh at others
>El + Yaweh = YHWH, more like Yaweh personality-wise
>tension and humility before, during and after the Babylonian exodus leads to YHWH being characterized as more like El than like Yaweh
>Christians believe Jesus is the son of God, YHWH becomes the more complex Trinity
>Islam refuses the Trinity, claims El/YHWH/the Father are all Allah
>>913816
Thanks
Source? Wikipedia page says Yaweh was part of the Canaanite pantheon but
>Wikipedia
>>913804
what's interesting is that most of the names of both Israel's and Judah's kings are YHVH-based. I bet both royal families worshipped YHVH and it was probably central to the royal cults, but it just wasn't exclusive
>>913826
not him, there's an inscription in Edom that is extremely close to YHVH, i think it's YHV, that dates to the late bronze age/early iron age
>>913826
It's a generally accepted theory but here's a nice article
https://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/yhwh-god-of-edom/
>>913809
You just need to read the bible to know that
Marcion of Sinope would be proud.
>>913838
Thanks
>>913521
Yahweh was a storm god analogous to Baal Hadad that inherited the characteristics from the supreme chief of the pantheon as Yahwehism gradually turned into a henotheistic religion. Then Yahwehism went instinct and Rabbinical Judaism took its place as a fully monothesitic religion around the 1st century AD.
>>913877
extinct*
>>913877
what do you mean by Yahwehism went extinct? didn't it just evolve into Rabbinical Judaism?
>>913884
No the Pharisees killed it
>>913899
so you claim that the Sadducces were Yahwehism?
How can Christfags continue to think their beliefs are 'correct' when it is already known the god of the Old Testament is itself an amalgamation of a patron war-god with other deities? Not just the deity itself, but several concepts prevalent in Christianity (i.e. the belief in an afterlife only arising due to Eastern influence during the Babylonian captivity, rather than being an organic Israelite belief).
I don't understand how Christfags rationalize this (if they even bother), considering their belief is that God is monolithic and has since Abraham been the God is Israel, but evidence points that YHWH/God emerged slowly, gaining and losing attributes as time went on (I believe YHWH had a consort/wife before the Babylonian conquest, and attempts to "retcon" this ended up in the concepts of the Jewish 'shekhinah' which eventually influenced the development of Christianity's 'holy spirit'.
>Exodus 6:3 "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai--'God Almighty'--but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them."
The word "El" is a term used by people in the ancient near East it was not so much a name of a God but rather the word used for a God/s.
The above scriptural verse is like saying "I called myself a god to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but my actual name is Yahweh"
If there was an exact time when the term El was translated into the specific name "Yahweh" it is in Exodus 6:3.
>>913931
The God of the OT is not consistent with himself
The God of the NT is arguably not consistent with the God of the OT either
Concepts like the Trinity became solid theology only after the Bible's books happened too
The idea is that most books of the Bible were written at different times by different people living in different cultures, with different audiences. God himself never changes, but our interpretations of him do. The gospels are the most legitimate sources we have, because they tell the story of the God made human, and even then the only "true" gospel is the one St Paul believed in. We don't know what it is exactly so we took the 4 gospels that were the most ressembling to what theological thoughts Paul preached.
The church already aknowledges that the contents of the Bible are not unchanging and eternal, unlike the Quran for Muslims. Christianity rests mostly on the Paulian epistles and on the 4 versions of the gospel, alongside tradition. Even the OT is expected to be read from a Christo-centric point of view.
>>914054
>"the idea is that most books of the Bible were written at different times by different people living in different cultures, with different audiences. God himself never changes, but our interpretations of him do."
Whatever helps you sleep at night: the more reasonable conclusion would be that the God of Christianity or Judaism is not real, but I suppose Christcucks can always resort to their convoluted apologetics to try to explain the dissonance between belief and what is known with some kind of weak-sounding and only marginally-convincing flowery statement like "our perceptions of him change, but not his person", which, desu, sounds more like something a Ba'hai would say (which is considered profoundly heretical and blasphemous in Christcuck thought).
>>914039
No, El is the head of the canaanite pantheon. after El became merged with Yahweh it came to mean "god"
The only people who preserved the original Israelite, Mosaic faith are the Samaritans. Judaism (and by extension Christianity) was created by Judean exiles in Babylon and expanded when they returned to Judea.
The worship of Jerusalem as a holy city, the existence of the devil as a fallen angel and shit like that would be completely alien to people like Moses and Joshua, it was flat out invented by those Babylonian scribes.
>>914066
>Christfags
>Christcucks
Stop speaking like a child, it makes it hard for me to want to reply
If you're not looking for people to reply then stop trying to discuss this in the first place
Anyway
The dissonance between belief and what is known isn't to be explained. It can't be explained, countless philosophers have tried to "explain" God rationally in history and have failed. By definition, what is believed and what is known are obviously impossible to be reconcialiated if the subject of belief isn't material, mathematical or emotional.
Even the Orthodox Church suggests not trying to prove or understand God in rational methods.
So I don't know who exactly you're trying to talk about. I know some Protestants really want to "prove" God but there's a reason they're "protestants" in the first place (and a minority).
>>914090
>he dissonance between belief and what is known isn't to be explained. It can't be explained, countless philosophers have tried to "explain" God rationally in history and have failed.
>By definition, what is believed and what is known are obviously impossible to be reconcialiated if the subject of belief isn't material, mathematical or emotional.
Even the Orthodox Church suggests not trying to prove or understand God in rational methods.
I'm not going to take you seriously, Christcuck, because you're literally giving me a cop-out as a response. "I can't explain it because God is above humans, so it doesn't have to make sense."
It's unfalsifiable and unverifiable, and as such, deserves no serious responses or inquiries either.
>>914088
Moses and Joshua probably never existed. though the Samaritans haven't made some of leaps of Rabbinic Judaism and they use a script closer to paleo-hebrew I'm not sure that it could be called more genuine than 1st century Judaism. most of the documents of the OT are from Judah and the later babylonian exiles. it's noteworthy that the Samaritans don't have their own separate tradition of northern documents
>>914133
Because the only Scriptures that matter was the Pentateuch which predates the two monarchies. If anything the Judeans were like the muslims, endlessly introducing new Scriptures into the religious canon.
>>914066
I will add that Christianity hasn't tried to "prove" God in a while. Every religion has a different spiritual doctrine, Christians believe the Christian one is correct, and the Christian doctrine rests only on what St Paul wrote (and subsequently the versions of the gospel that corroborate what he wrote). Everything else is side meals to have a consistent theology. YHWH really just being ElxYaweh is not a problem because YHWH really just being part of the Trinity is also a thing. Christianity is basically a pudding of different philosophies and theologies with the story of Jesus being the son of God holding everything together, and it's not ashamed of it, so I'm not sure I understand your point.
>>914116
>It's unfalsifiable and unverifiable, and as such, deserves no serious responses or inquiries either.
This isn't the Enlightenment anymore, we've already noticed that trying to solve everything with a+b=c doesn't fulfill our quest for meaning, which instead finds its answers in art, philosophy & theology.
On top of that, yes, most religion is not verifiable or falsifiable for various reasons. What is your point? That isn't related to your original question, which was
>How can Christfags continue to think their beliefs are 'correct' when it is already known the god of the Old Testament is itself an amalgamation of a patron war-god with other deities? Not just the deity itself, but several concepts prevalent in Christianity (i.e. the belief in an afterlife only arising due to Eastern influence during the Babylonian captivity, rather than being an organic Israelite belief).
I already gave an answer for that, your only rebuttal is "but religion is stupid and I don't like it". If you don't actually want to discuss things, find another board to mess with.
Anyway, if you actually are curious about why the hell would people believe in things they can't just prove, I can suggest two books:
>A History Of God
>The Great Transformation
both by Karen Armstrong
>>914157
by the way she's biased and tries to please everyone, but it does give some good insight on religion throughout history
>>914151
Samaritans have other writings such as joshua, judges, kings and some prophets (can't remember if they have Samuel) but they don't consider them scripture. my point is that they are textually dependent on the south
>>914172
They don't have Samuel m8. That's a genuinely Judean book.
>>914197
that's why I wasn't sure. it has a definite Judah bias
>>913567
Judaism was Henotheistic until the book of Daniel was written, Daniel is the first time the bible rejects the idea of other Gods and claims the jewish god to be the singular god of all things.
>>914157
You made such a lengthy post, when you could have expressed the same point just as clearly by typing in: "It's magic, I ain't got to explain shit."
Which is really what you're trying to say. Your only rebuttal is - as I already said - "It's magic, I ain't got to explain shit." If you actually want to circle-jerk as to the supposed literal 'reality' of your slave religion, go to your hugbox on the Otherchan.
>>914215
>It's magic, I ain't got to explain shit
Either you misread or I can't express myself well (which wouldn't be a surprise because English isn't my first language, in this case I'm sorry)
Religion's point os to answer existential questions such as "Who am I? What is the purpose of life? Why does anything exist at all?"
Different religions have different appealing traits. Christianity's appeal is to give oneself up even though it is difficult, by giving mostly to charity for instance.
As for what makes one believe in Christianity in particular, it can be anything from being raised into it, to finding its doctrines too philosophically appealing to not take a chance to try to follow it, to having a personal experience that would make one believe in God or particularly in Jesus, to just trusting what others say, to just find a community to subscribe to the "us vs them" mentality. To answer your original question again, YHWH and other concepts really just being taken from other cultures isn't a problem.
>>914236
>os
i'm tired, no bully pls
>>914236
kinda want to distance myself from the fedora before i start. and your english is really good for being a second language, I couldn't tell that it was.
I find the religion having a specifc purpose in asking existensial questions argument unsatisfactory. these can be answered philosophically without religion. additionally religion is about additional claims on reality, its origins, ect. prime example of this is Genesis 1, which fails to come anywhere close to what we know now about the beginnings of the universe, though I acknowledge that this alone doesn't make christianity untrue. also christianity claims to have the exclusive path to salvation. you can hear this straight from the horse's (Jesus's) mouth. because of this the issue of unfalsifiability is a real issue because you can't save people by showing them empirical proof that christianity's god is real. "you've just gotta have faith" is a phrase I hear a lot, but this ignores that there's tons of religions that with a certain amount of apologetics could be considered an equally valid option. those believers also treat faith as a virtue yet they don't recieve salvation. ultimately religion is playing a multiple choice test with near infinite choices. atheism is just refusing to take this silly test and getting on with our lives
>>914309
I mostly agree, although issues like Genesis don't actually make sense because such texts were written to picture things simple sentences cannot accurately describe - in this case, the relationship between man & woman and between human & god
I'd take the flood as a better example
Yes, Christians are more or less whiny - they are expected to preach to everyone that their faith is right and everyone else's is undoubtedly inaccurate if not wrong. Early Christian communities were being bullied and were being thrown false accusations at, simply because they were pissing off everyone.
Theology and philosophy both want to answser "why?" but in different ways, often, and on a very different scale too. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they go in completely different directions.
Philosophy doesn't really bother to think of spirituality though, unless it is applied to religion. Religion exists to fill the void in our heart that is the feeling that we are all alone, we are part of the universe but there is nothing greater, and yet even though there is nothing greater than us we die all the time and very easily so our condition isn't reassuring at all. Atheists often fill that void by leaning toward non-religious spirituality, or by more or less "believing" in oneself, appreciating one's amazing ability to control their life and actions and appreciate the world surrounding them.
This is my version of the black cat analogy:
>philosophy is wondering what is a black cat
>metaphysics is trying to find a black cat in a dark room, that may or may not be there, that may or may not be black, that may or may not even exist
>religion is asking why is there even a black cat in the room and what greater purpose does it serve
>science is looking for rational clues for the location of a black cat in a dark room, formulating theories to pinpoint the location of the cat based off logical common sense, and proof of the cat's presence if possible
>>913931
>Christfags
>rationalize
In the end only muh feels matter. None of what you say cater to muh feels of Christians. Therefore you are wrong and/or must ignored.
>>914630
I think the main thing is respect.
I can accept that my friend believes an omnipotent cosmic being created the universe and my friend can accept that I choose to admit I don't know what the fuck created it but the stuff the scientists say seems most plausible. As long as neither of us tries to push our beliefs down each other's throats, is it really worth fussing about?
>>913549
>>913549
LOL get a load of this tardfaggot
Christians, muslims and jews all pray to the same god, like it or not.
Heck, the old testament itself is basically the talmud but in slightly rearranged order. And Islam views the OT/talmud as canonical too, just subordinated to the quran in the order of spiritual importance.
>>913736
srsly, as little as we like to admit it, our (christians) concept of god is essentially a product of neo-platonism and hellenism coming into contact with judaic myth.
no gnosticism need apply.
>>913521
>Judeochristian God
>Judeochristian
>Judeo-Christian
Christ. You realise that term was created solely for the purpose of drawing sympathy towards the Jews during Nazi reign in Germany, right? You look like an idiot when you use it.
Pic related. Oh, but that's just a coincidence, right guys?
...
>>916547
glad someone else pointed it out
Wahhhhh God kills people at one point and then creates someone who heals the blind wahhhhhhh He can't be the same God!
Retards
>>918375
I'm just pointing out that people who use the term 'Judeo-Christian' are retarded. If you want to refer to what's common between the two religions, why not also bring Islam in too? Oh, that's right, because there's absolutely no reason for creating such a term except if you want to pretend Muslims, Christians and Jews are the same.
>>918384
Which they are and always were. Here is a God that isn't afraid to give guidance to humans through humans. Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were all Muslims.
>>918397
Jesus he created immaculately, those other two he just guided into the path.
>>918397
Muslims are people who use the Qu'ran as their primaries source of belief. Christians use the New Testament as well as a bit of the Old sometimes. Jews is 100% Old Testament with a few guidebooks here and there like the Talmud.
Within Christianity alone there are VERY different types of Christians. Mormons and Catholics aren't that alike at all even though they share the same boo. Muslims are much much more different because they have a whole new set of rules and a different culture.
Just because they sorta have the same god doesn't mean their beliefs and traditions are similar. Well done, you've noticed that all three believe in the Old Testament to varying extents. It's not that hard to figure that out. Now try and tell me that the lives of Christians living in Syria is identical to Muslims living in the same region. If you try to argue this, please refer to specifics because I'm completely convinced they have very different cultures.
>>918411
People love differences, and so you've stated that in your post. Treating religion as some kind of label you pick and choose is blasphemy.
Allah is Yahweh and the lord who breathed into Mary, the one and the same.
>>918424
Except certain texts which are canonical for Christians or Muslims are not for Jews. This is like saying thatthe Goku in my Dragon Ball x Naruto in which Goku cheats on his wife and fucks Haku's boipussy is the same Goku who's a loving husband and father in the official Dragon Ball releases. Sure, it might be the same Goku to me (the writer of the fanfiction) but typical Dragon Ball fans wouldn't accept my version. Thus they're different versions of Goku.
So yeah, technically they're the same god, but that's a poor excuse for saying Christians and Jews can be lumped into one group of people.
By the way, I'm not an autistic weeb. Just wanted to make a simple comparison.
>>918441
This is like saying that the Goku in my Dragon Ball x Naruto fanfiction*
fuck me
>>916530
>And Islam views the OT/talmud as canonical too, just subordinated to the quran in the order of spiritual importance.
all the patriarchs of the talmud/old testament have different names in islam, have different characteristics, their deeds differ slightly and they have different meaning in their respective religions.
Moses=/=Musa
Noah=/=Nuh
etc.
>>913521
Yahweh is midianite in origin, Tzipporah Moses' wife was able to literally stop an Angel with a blood offering of her child's circumcision.
How could it be that Moses leader of the Jews and performer of miracles could not stop to angel but his basically "Pagan", newly converted wife have an intimate knowledge of god?
Why did the god of Moses punish Miriam for her questioning Moses marriage to this tribal African/Cushite woman?
Well Yahweh has no precedent in Canaan, however the Egyptians record Yahu in the land of the Šosū-Nomads which is Midian in 14th century BCE. Long before Yahu (the Egyptian translation of Yahweh) was found in modern Israel.
Yahweh is a different embodiment of god though is also one in the same because Judaism incorporated many deities into one.
>>918517
Bump
>>918517
wtf i'm reading
>>921168
What's so confusing?
>>916541
middle platonism actually. neo-platonism wasn't around when christianity first got its start and neo-platonism fits more with gnosticism than "orthodox" christianity
