I'm not sure which board to post this on, as there is no religion board, but i recently saw this comment by a Muslim on goodreads. This woman claims that Aisha was not as young as people claim.
is the comment in the pic accurate?
here is a link to the review where the comment was posted:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/731124208
>>1098681
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aishas_Age_of_Consummation
Muhammad was a gluttonous wealthy slave owner, an adulterer, a child-molesting pedophile, a murderer, a liar, he encouraged theft, rape, torture and the list goes on. He was the pawn of Satan and is now in Hell.
>Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15-20
>>1098681
The short answer is that we don't really know what her age really was. The Hadith are not historical accounts and anecdotes, they're the accumulated myths of early Islam that were indexed by storyteller and story, and it's frankly hard to tell where fact ends and elaboration/conjecture begins. What the lady in that post brings up is less the 'true account' so much as the existing evidence that what we do know of this and other biographical and chronological details about Muhammad and his contemporaries is full of discrepancies - plot holes if you will.
So it's not inaccurate, but not any more accurate than other accounts stating she was 6, 8, 9, or whatever. As historical fact they're all equally valid considering the mess of politics and obtuse literary devices that is the Hadith. But it's a more plausible explanation on the other hand.
>>1098799
The average european noble/royalty for a while then. You think you two would have more in common. Clovis (defender of the faith) and him probably would've gotten along after a while.
>>1098681
If you really want to understand the Sunni / Shia schism and Aisha's part in it, read "After the Prophet" by Hazelton. It is available in pdf online and is written for a Western audience. It is a well researched well written book...
>>1098799
>http://www.wikiislam.net
General rule of thumb for /his/torians interested in History, not "Humanities":
Read the useful and autistically extensive collection of translated primary source excerpts for quick reference when you can't find your academic primers and encyclopedia of Islam (you have one, yes?). Ignore everything outside of quote boxes as [Original Research].
>>1098854
In english please doc.
>>1098859
General Wikipedia caution basically. Find an article, trawl for direct quotes, find references to primary sources and academic works, and ignore everything else. And be sure to at least attempt to read scholarly experts before coming up with your own >opinions on what a quote means both theologically and historically.
>>1098846
I tend to avoid these sorts of pop-history/theology books. What makes it worth reading over an orientalist?
>>1098865
What are you saying about that wiki though? Good? Bad?
>>1098799
Like I said in the other thread, I really doubt an evil man that opposes Christ would tolerate Christians and Jews the way Muhammad did.
>>1098871
Mostly bad, like most wikis that aren't based on STEM autism or vidya, devolving every other page into petty blog wars with equally asinine and opinionated apologetics.
>>1098877
Are you saying ''evil man'' sarcastically? Examine the facts pal.
Jesus Christ:
>"Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Luke 23:34
(He said this while dying on the cross at Calvary after being betrayed and sentenced to die for no legitimate reason.)
Muhammad:
>"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of the prophets."
Bukhari, Vol. 1, #427
(He had been poisoned years earlier by a Jewish woman whose husband was killed by the Muslims and the poison had slowly worked its effect. He said this while dying in the arms of his wife Aisha.)
>>1098870
It maintains neutrality. It doesn't take a religious position. The book is concerned with the people surrounding him immediately prior to his death and the political (not religious) fallout of his death. A quick read. Deals in the history without taking sides. Took me 3 days part time reading and the Sunni / Shia schism finally makes sense.
>>1098880
the wiki in question however generally relies on Islamic scripture and early Muslim sources. at least from the articles i've read.
No, it's wrong. And I mean flat out lying, since some hadiths referencing Aisha come from her own mouth at the time, since when Mohammad died they desperately spoke to people who knew him trying to gather up hadith in order to follow the sunnah (his actions because he's seen as moral and someone to be emulated). She was married young, but the marriage was consumnated at 9 or so. So, basically, probably as soon as puberty started.
In today's world this is pretty fucked up, but the real defense should be that at 13 as a boy you'd be a grown ass man told to get the fuck out and start your own life. Once puberty hit, you were generally sent off to be an adult for most of human history. Especially since you had to pump out kids as early as possible since you'd die young for a variety of reasons like famine, plague, war, etc., and most of your kids would die since this was before the age of medicine that did anything.
So, in their time, it wasn't seen as weird. Nor would it be seen as weird even in Europe hence why it was never brought up by them while tons of other stuff was. It's really only a case of apples and oranges today "why did your prophet do an act that's immoral by today's standards but necessary by their standards?"
He did lots of other fucked up shit and says some retarded shit if you read the Quran and hadith, marrying a young girl and consumating it at puberty at that time isn't one of them. Everyone's ancestors did it. If they didn't, we'd all be dead by now.
>>1098799
Inappropriate BAIT. This is a History thread where a legitimate question was asked. This is NOT Sunday School and you obviously have NO KNOWLEDGE of the subject being discussed.
>>1098943
Muhammad was actually visited by a false angel of light, it was a demon, a fallen angel of deception. Satan and his workers are great mimickers and Muhammad, deceived, established a demonic cult of Allah (false-God) called Islam (meaning voluntary submission to this false-God, i.e. Satan) which he spread by the sword like wildfire convinced that it was the last revelation of God Almighty.
Islam is none other than Satan's magnum opus, which now has 1.6 billion adherents (23% of the world population) and which will probably be followed by half of the world population by 2050.
>For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
>>1098965
W-wew
Abandon thread
Sage, ignore, etc
>>1098943
>>1098965
Muhammad was Satan's pawn, merely a man, he was easily deceived.
Jesus is the Christ prophesied in Scripture, born of God, undeceivable.
Islam's deceptions are endless:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas#Anachronisms
>>1098927
It's good specifically for laying out a lot of scripture that's hard to pin down in one place online in an easily searchable wiki format. And that's about it. Any idiot can then make uneducated opinions based on scripture - Muslim apologists do it all the time, as do anti-Muslim bigots in their own dark corner of the net. Take the link in the thread for example. The references and similar links at the bottom of the page are almost all links to opinion pieces, blogs, and apologeia for the purpose of attacking. In no way would any of this be of any use to a historian wanting to study Islamic and Muslim history. Hell, the ONE academic in the references is pop-history memelord John Esposito, and he's only even referenced to build up the reputation of an apologetic the writers of the article are attacking.
It's literally 80% an archive for shitposting and meme Islamic studies, and 20% useful, direct quotes (which are then compartmentalized and labeled under pages and headers trying to push a certain way of reading them). You would probably get the same quality of discourse searching through /pol/ and r/atheism archives.
>>1098970
>>1098965
And you say it's demonic because of the picture? Let's see what angels looked like in the canon Bible. Tell me this doesn't sound like something downright demonic and so surreal that even Salvador Dali and H.R. Giger wouldn't even come up with this shit.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ezekiel-Chapter-1/
>>1098965
This IS NOT Sunday School. The question stands. Aisha's age at marriage and consummation of that marriage. The answers vary with "reliable" sources differing greatly. There is strong evidence that she was 19 at consummation. The prophet's and Islam's supposed relationship to Satan has NOTHING TO DO with the Islamic source material and other SCHOLARLY work which looks at the question being asked.
>>1099002
>There is strong evidence that she was 19 at consummation.
what evidence? not the christian guy you're replying to btw.
It's one of those things that gets tied up in the Sunni/Shi'a dispute because of Aisha's role as a supporter of the former party later in life. You'll get no clearer an answer on this question than on that of whether Muhammad named Ali his successor.
>>1099000
>you say it's demonic because of the picture?
Bait? See >>1098799
>>1099002
>There is strong evidence that she was 19 at consummation
No there isn't.
Apologists have presented a series of arguments as to why the generally accepted understanding of Aisha’s age (i.e. nine-years-old) when she married and had sex with Muhammad, based on commonly known narratives, is erroneous and contradictory. However, on closer inspection, we find they have produced arguments that can be broadly categorized into these categories:
A. Unjustified slanders against Hisham ibn Urwah and the Iraqi narrators.
B. The use of non-sahih information to refute otherwise sahih hadiths.
C. The use of secondary, indirect sources in preference of direct testimonies.
D. The use of ‘imprecise’ dating in preference to specific dates and statements of age.
E. The use of misquoted references and erroneous information.
F. The use of incorrect logic.
G. Personal opinion.
When one examines their claims, one sees that their arguments contradict and debunk each other. Argument No. 5 says she was 14 to 21 years old. However, argument No. 6 says she was 15+, argument No. 7 says she was 17 or 18, argument No. 8 says Aisha was 14+, argument No. 9 says she was 12+, and argument No. 12 says she was 12. In other words, each and every one of the evidences contradicts and debunks all the others. Which of these so-called arguments is correct? They cannot all be correct. Clearly the apologists do not have a clue.
(1/2)
>a debate on hearsay from more than a thousand years ago
>/his/ - History & Humanities
>>1099002
>There is strong evidence that she was 19 at consummation.
No, there's fucking not. She was way younger than that. Up until fairly recently in history you were married and had sex long, long before 19. This isn't the modern age you're talking about, it's at the cusp of the middle ages. Even most sources say she was younger. The only time this "she was 19" shit comes from is because modern people think it's fucked up for little kids having sex right after puberty despite this being the case for most of human history and lasting even into the 1700s and 1800s.
It's fucked up now because we know better. Back then they didn't, and even if they did know better, they couldn't afford to wait that long given their shorter lifespans, and tons of variables like disease, kids dying very easily with the lack of modern medicine, warfare, etc. When living to your 30s and 40s made you fucking ancient, you didn't have time to wait that long before growing up and doing shit. It's why humans reach puberty so young: because for most of our history, that's when you'd be an adult and get down to fucking and trying to live your adult life.
And even with that young age of puberty, we still hit a genetic bottleneck and couldn't get out population up really quickly until we entered the 20th century and had advancements across a variety of fields that afforded us such a luxury.
>>1099002
>>1099024
Their argument appears to be that because they themselves, using spurious information, derive multiple conflicting ages for the one specific event in Aisha’s life, then we must throw out what we know about her age at this event. In effect, they are saying that just because they are using rubbish data, we have to throw out the sahih hadiths. However, this is not the logical outcome. A reasonable person would note that whilst their arguments debunk each other, all of the sahih hadith in regards to Aisha's age of consummation are in perfect harmony. Thus, rather than discarding the good with the bad, we will merely throw out the bad; in this case, the weak apologetic attempt to obfuscate our understanding that Aisha was aged nine when she married and had sex with Muhammad.
(2/2)
From:
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aishas_Age_of_Consummation#Conclusion
See also:
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Pedophilia
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur%27an
>>1099009
>bait
Nice buzzword my atheist friend.
>>1099026
But anon, most of what historians do is debate ancient hearsay.
>>1099038
>every single piece of evidence on a subject matter is contradictory
>so mine is instead correct!
>>1099010
Start at Muslim.org and work from there.
I will concede that the evidence can be considered equally "reliable" for age 9. That is the point. With any contentious doctrinal debate, both sides have there own sources and present their own provenance. I believe she was a teenager based on my limited study as a gentile and I resent the presentation of the prophet as a pedophile.
>>1099028
>Up until fairly recently in history you were married and had sex long, long before 19.
Average age of marriage in Medieval Muslim (and European societies) varied between 14-18, with outliers near the 12-13 and 19-20 ranges. It could vary quite a bit for a lot of reasons, really.
>>1099032
To be fair, historians do this with a more sober and methodical approach than most memelords out there.
>>1099040
>I'm a butthurt muslim who still thinks Allah isn't Satan
inb4 ''b-but Allah just means God in arabic :'(''
>>1099041
>Muslim.org
Do they say that he was a gluttonous wealthy slave owner, an adulterer, a child-molesting pedophile, a murderer, a liar, that he encouraged theft, rape, torture, etc. ?
>>1099061
>Do they say that he was a gluttonous wealthy slave owner, an adulterer, a child-molesting pedophile, a murderer, a liar, that he encouraged theft, rape, torture, etc. ?
About as much as Christian sites call their holy men who did the same things all of those things. :^)
>>1099066
>holy men
Jesus Christ and His disciples?
>>1099072
You're forgetting the Old Testament, pal. Or are you saying that the Old Testament is wrong (in which case you lose all the justification for Christ being anything but some random guy) and/or think it wasn't god telling them to do all of those things?
>>1099081
>“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”
Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.
Any questions?
>>1098799
Why do Christianforums members come to 4chan anyway if they can't handle discussion about other religions
>>1099083
Yeah, my question about the Old Testament wasn't answered. You just went back to Jesus and ignored over half of your holy book again.
>>1099095
We're talking about Christianity here, not Judaism.
>“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
Matthew 22:36-40
>Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2
Any questions?
ITT: muslim apologists getting BTFO
>>1099110
The Old Testament still applies. Moses is mentioned more in the NT than anyone else except Christ, and Jesus talks about the old laws most of the time and only changes up a few things with his own words. He even goes so far as to say not a jot or tittle of the old law shall change until the end of the world. You also rely on prophesy from the OT to justify Christ being anyone.
So, no, you very much need the OT and to read it. You can't skip over that and pretend it never happened, you dishonest faggot.
>>1099112
Meanwhile /his/torians don't care, and can't be touched by copy-pasta and memes.
>>1099122
>copy-pasta
That's a nice buzzword btw, too bad it's not an argument :(
>>1098808
/thread
>>1099132
nice samefag, too bad the thread won't be over any time soon
>>109906
Wow...
Any attempt to take the high road in this discussion is fruitless. The butt hurt is everywhere and the responses are playground insults of each other's Hily Men and Deities. You can objectively find fault in the prophets of most faiths.
Let me, as a humble Agnostic Methodist Jehovah's Witness Gentile kinda guy, but some bait out there for the Christians who are insulting the Prophet Mohammed.
Jesus was a Jew, why aren't you?
Now that doesn't add to the merits of the discussion of Aisha's age, but damn that felt good.
And for that matter, even Muslims keep the tradition of the Holy Day (or Sabbath) being Fri/Sat. Jesus certainly didn't give anybody permission to "forget the Sabbath day", but 2 billion Christians can't be bothered with the 10 Commandments.
That also felt good.
They were humans, The Prophet and Aisha, who lived long ago. Their's is a beautiful story that is the stuff of LEGEND. ALL religions have similar stories upon which their Legends and Deities are based. Quit getting so butt hurt because other humans have cultures and traditions.
RANT COMPLETE
>>1099134
The /his/ thread ended there. The /rel/ thread can shitpost its way off the board and no one would care.
>>1099129
Hey Abd Al-Makr, there's no need to cry about it, y'know? You can just reject Satan and accept God, it's very simple.
>>1099125
You know what I asked already. You claim Mohammad is evil because he did all of those acts, and yet when Moses and the other holy men chosen by god himself (and some acts even being commanded by god himself) do those same exact acts throughout the entire OT, you don't say a thing and pretend "oh its only mohammad who's shit". All of you Abrahamic faiths are barbaric and monstrous. And don't even try to say Christ is so much different, because I guarantee I've read your book more than you have and the NT is full of stories where Christ does bad things.
For instance, when Christ says he only came to the lost sheep of Israel and compares a gentile woman a dog, and only when she accepts that she is inferior to the Jews, he blesses her.
So, even your Christ is shitty and your asses are still supposed to follow the old laws anyway according to Jesus. So, not only are you gentiles and unacceptable, you don't follow the Jewish laws and cherrypick shit to make it seem like "yeah, the OT is kinda harsh, but the NT has cuddly ol' Jesus who's all flowers and rainbows shooting out of his ass".
>>1099139
>hurr
please
>>1099143
Did you seriously delete your comment to call me a different Arabic name?
>>1099146
>You claim Mohammad is evil because he did all of those acts
Correct, see >>1098799
>muh Old Testament violence
See >>1099110
What don't you understand?
>Christ says he only came to the lost sheep of Israel and compares a gentile woman a dog
Nice meme. What next? muh fig tree? Pic related.
Christ is good because God is good. Stop pathetically trying to demonize Him.
>Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.
John 7:24
>Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Colossians 3:11
>There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
>So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Acts 10:34-35
>But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.
1 Samuel 16:7
>>1099150
>different Arabic name
Look it up.
>>1098799
>>1098965
>>1099143
Oh Boy here you are again,and i thought i wouldn't see you after last thread when i roasted you to the bone,but i guess you're pretty vigilant with these copy pastas,anyway here we go again,
Aisha was married in 622 C.E., and although her exact birthday is unknown, Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari recorded that it happened before Islam was revealed in 610. The earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, Abu Muhammad 'Abd al-Malik bin Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah -- The Life of the Messenger of God records that Aisha accepted Islam shortly after it was revealed -- 12 years before her marriage -- and there is no way she could have done so as an infant or toddler.
Furthermore, it is a matter of incontrovertible historical record that Aisha was involved in the Battles of Badr in 624 and Uhud in 625, in neither of which was anyone under the age of 15 allowed.
Finally, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, dead for more than 700 years, recorded in the biographical section of Miskat al-Masabih that Asma, her elder sister of 10 years, died at the age of 100, 72 years after Aisha's wedding. This makes Aisha's age at the time of her marriage at least 14, and at the time of her marriage's consummation almost 20.
I have used historical sources and facts for my claim,lets see how you can counter this although just like in the last thread i'm going to bet you're going to run into circular logic and use unreliable sources from wikiislam,Oh and lastly about your point that says prophet was inspired by satan,trust me being visited by an angel wasn't the only thing that happened,he also got to journey to heaven in Isra and Miraj so unless satan can create a fake heaven aswell your claim is irrelevant.
>>1099165
1. So, the god of the OT is different and holy men were allowed to do evil and god was allowed to command evil? It may be Jewish, but Christ was a Jew and you guys love to reference the OT for the 10 commandments and shit against fags. You can't cherrypick. Either you're using the OT, or you're relying solely on the NT in which you can't justify Christ being anything but a random preacher because it doesn't have the OT "prophecy" about the coming messiah who Christ is meant to be.
2. Your picture doesn't mean anything. It's making excuses rather than actually talking about what Jesus said.
It's cute that you come up with this kindergarten level apologetics, but it doesn't take away that your god/his chosen people did horrible things. And funny how Christ never says he comes to all people, but all this happens later when the apostles tried to spread the gospel to non-Jews because they were getting curbstomped in Rome. Sounds like making concessions more than it does following what any of what god/Christ said.
>>1099174
See >>1099024 >>1099029
This is also relevant:
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Origins_of_the_Quran
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Corruption_of_the_Quran
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Best_Deceiver
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Cosmology_of_the_Quran
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Geocentrism_and_the_Quran
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Quran
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Science_and_the_Seven_Earths
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Quranic_Claim_of_Everything_Created_in_Pairs
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Rape_in_Islam
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins
>>1099177
Re-read >>1099165 since you apparently have the reading comprehension of a 6 year old girl named Aisha.
>>1099174
>i roasted you to the bone
Why are you lying? Oh wait, Muhammad teaches you to.
https://desustorage.org/his/thread/1082621/
>>1099174
Nice copying and pasting from that huffingtonpost article btw.
Too bad it's been refuted.
>>1099177
But, ya know what? Fine. If we're gonna cherrypick scripture that sounds nice, let's play that game.
Judges 19. All of it.
1 Samuel 15:3.
Exodus 22:18.
Leviticus 20:13.
Matthew 15:21–28
Matthew 5:18 where he says not a jot or tittle of the old law shall change. Meaning you need to be following all of the 613 rules set down by god, not the first 10 commandments. And, certainly, not the set of 10 commandments you cite that Moses broke, but the second one.
And, more importantly, if you're not a Jew none of this would realistically apply to you, meaning gentiles basically have free reign given this was only meant for Jews. But if you insist on following it, you follow every fucking bit of it according to Christ and the only changes would be what came out of his own mouth. And I could go on. Need I cite yet more and more of your "good book"? I'll be happy to shit all over your NT as well if you wanna pull the "NEW COVENANT! OLD STUFF DOESN'T APPLY!" crap.
>>1099206
Cool, so you're just gonna ignore scripture that goes against your cherrypicked bits that sound nice out of context and refuse to read anything else about your god and the book you believe is the absolute truth.
I'm sorry for even saying you had kindergarten level apologetics. You're downright fucking retarded.
>>1098681
>this explanation comes from tumblr
Why can't we just have a thread on early Islam and historicity of sources? Do we really need this off-topic bullshit debate for the thousandth time?
>>1099183
>Moving the goalpost
Cute,Also those two posts you comes down to ''my sources are right yours is wrong'',It is a fact that battle of badr and uhud did not allow anyone under age of 15,If you want to win this arguement youll need to be more specific as to what you're trying to counter instead of throwing a ''my sources are better than yours because they serve my point.''.
>>1099206
IF Jesus is good because God (YHWH) is good THEN shouldn't Mohamed be good because God (Allah) is good.
Right?
I'm confused...
>>1099174
>Aisha accepted Islam shortly after it was revealed and there is no way she could have done so as an infant or toddler.
yeh, islam wouldn't force anything on an infant, like say, mutilating their genitals and calling that their 'acceptance' of the religion, right? also,
>age limits on battles
top fucking kek, I'm sure they carded each warrior at the front lines.
>>1099216
>cherrypicked bits
Oh so you're also Biblically illiterate too, cute.
>>1099230
>''my sources are right yours is wrong''
Abd Al-Makr please. You literally copied and pasted stuff from a huffingtonpost article. You have no knowledge on this subject. You have been deceived, it wouldn't surprise me if you've never even read the Koran.
Reject Satan and accept God.
The clock is ticking.
>You do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.
James 4:14
See also Matthew 3:2
>>1099230
See... Isn't this a Sunni / Shia thing. We Christians should just stay out of this.
>>1099225
Because Christians are defensive over Islam and have to shove their shit in. They're scared of Islam growing while theirs is dying and feel the need to go "HEY THIS SHIT IS WRONG! BELIEVE OUR BULLSHIT! PLS BELIEVE US WE'RE DYING OUT!" and get asshurt when people show their book to be full of just as much stupid, barbaric, and terrible shit as the Quran. The OT is basically one big degenerate clusterfuck of slavery, rape, genocide, murder, all done by god's holy men and even approved of by god. And their NT isn't much better outside of a few cherrypicked examples that sound nice and loving, until you REALLY read it and see that Christ said you need to follow all of the old law, called gentiles dogs, and then later on came the "no u guise can totes join us because rome is stomping us out".
It's a messianic death cult and nothing more.
>>1099225
>Why can't we just have a thread on early Islam and historicity of sources?
op here. that's the sort of thing i was hoping to see discussed in this thread. shame it went the way it has.
>>1099243
You call me Biblically illiterate and yet completely ignored the verses I cited. Verses that according to Christ and god (since god didn't turn into a different god in the NT) were righteous acts and examples to be followed and laws you need to follow.
So, why did you ignore my verses and think your one sentence verses from various books overrides everything else?
>>1098939
>It's really only a case of apples and oranges today "why did your prophet do an act that's immoral by today's standards but necessary by their standards?"
This would normally be fine, but Muhammed is specifically meant to be the final prophet sent directly from God, who faithfully recited every single word from God by way of Gabriel, that applies from now until Armageddon. The best example of humanity to the extent that people are to emulate him in every way possible and value his opinions second only to gospel. If Muhammed is really all this, especially God's final prophet whose every word apply directly to us today, all this morally ambiguous stuff presents a problem. It's like the Biblical genocide of the Caananites. If something like that actually happened in antiquity, it wouldn't be that strange given all the massacres that also happened. But if you're looking to an eternal, unchanging God for moral authority and guidance, having that on their resume is kind of a problem for anyone who isn't genocidal. When you start invoking deities "historical context" stops being a valid excuse.
>tfw when Jesus is the second most named prophet in the Quran
feels good familia
>[5:37] They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
>>1099243
>Dodging the arguement
>Ad hominem
Guess that's that then ill be seeing you around in the next thread buddy,i suggest you prepare some better material next time to avoid embarassing your christian friends once more,Salam habibi.
We'll never know. Biased and/or ill-informed historians lessened and lessened her age to drive the point home that she was a pure virgin, etc.
>>1099269
>Allah is one of three in a Trinity
Except that ''Allah'' is Satan.
>>1099270
>running away
Goodbye Abd Al-Makr.
>>1099225
It's pretty easy to see it unfold. The very first reply was your standard polemical response to which everyone can't help but reply to. Meanwhile the rational responses like the one just below that first reply is basically ignored.
4chan thrives on (you)'s. The rational, clear-headed posters get left behind on the ship.
>>1098681
Before modern times "if it bleeds it breeds" was taken literally.
It's doubtful he fucked her before her first period.
>>1099248
4chan is 18+, you know that, right?
>>1099268
There's various Christian views on that. So, that lovey dovey Jesus you like to claim is so much better than the harsh OT? He said slavery was fine, ordered genocide, proclaimed that only Jews were his chosen people, etc. If Jesus is god then he gets all the blame for the acts in the OT.
Thanks, all you did was add more ammo to the stockpile of why Jesus is an immoral thug because you can't even claim he didn't do it. You have to accept the OT, as it's in your Bible and is what justifies Christ at all. So, having that, you have to take their word for it that god was the one saying all of that terrible shit. If God IS Jesus, then Jesus said all of that terrible shit.
Good job, pal. You made my job even easier when it came to dismissing Christ as immoral trash.
>>1099293
>that lovey dovey Jesus you like to claim is
He isn't ''lovey dovey'', He is simply righteous.
>God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21
Read the Holy Bible pal.
>>1099277
>tarnishing a holy prophet's message
Satan never makes deception obvious.
>>1099266
What about Joseph Smith and his magic underwear? I thought he was the Final Prophet...
>>1099297
If what god commands is so righteous, why did you ignore my verses I posted before? Surely you can justify those because they came from god and god is righteous.
As for your second verse, it said "god made him". That implies god made Jesus as a different entity and that he wasn't literally god, but just the messiah. You chose a verse that is used to contradict your idea that Christ and god are a single entity.
Oh, lord, thank you for this bountiful harvest of keks from your ignorant followers.
>>1099277
"Elahi, Elahi, lama sabachtani?"
-Jesus
>lel "God" in another language is satan xdd
>>1099266
It could be argued that since Islam was marginal at best in Muhammad's time, that the "massacres" were only to safe the religion in the long-run. Being that Islam is the size it is today, war on such a scale should be unnecessary.
>>1099309
Not the anon you replied to but Joseph Smith was a conman whose deceitful works have been thoroughly debunked.
http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf
>But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:8-9
>>1099325
>saying inb4 nullifies an argument
You're entitled to your belief, but that doesn't make it any less retarded.
>>1099325
>gets asked hard questions
>M-M-MUH INFOGRAPHIC! I hope this works because I have no answers, but desperately need Christianity to be true!
Lord! Please, lord, don't make your followers humiliate themselves so. Why do you give me such hearty keks at the expense of your followers who are barely above mouth breathing troglodytes? Please, let your followers actually read the fucking book and not just cherrypicked examples their pastor told them about. I appreciate the laughs, but this can't be good for them to be this dumb.
>>1099324
So wasn't the Apostle Paul a con man?
>>1099323
I didn't mean any of the Islamic massacres specifically, but the one Yahweh orders the Israelites to commit back in the Old Testament. It was to illustrate that the problem isn't necessarily endemic to Islam, but any attempt to derive "divine", unquestionable moral authority from figures situated in their historical context. If the Israelites actually committed genocide against Canaanites, that isn't really strange in the context of the history of warfare and conquest. However, if there is a God who existed that ordered such a thing, and we are supposed to pray to him now and follow his commands, that is a huge problem for anyone that wants to maintain a modern, non-genocidal moral code. Muhammed has the same problem. Aisha and the conquests aren't that bad in a historical context, but once he stops being some guy who started being a religion and starts being the mouthpiece of God's eternal message to humanity including today and the supposed most exemplary human, things get dicey. You can't have historical context and eternal divine mandates at the same time.
>>1099339
>>M-M-MUH INFOGRAPHIC!
It literally answers his question.
There's a lot of text and a nice organized chart to go along with it. Since you didn't read any of it, at least read the last sentence instead of shooting yourself in the foot. I didn't just ''post an infograph''. How old are you?
Besides, I thought you said you were running away, Abd Al-Makr.
>read the fucking book
t. Biblically illiterate
alright ladios, can someone recommend me stuff on the political history of islam following muhammed's death
>>1099201
>Meaning you need to be following all of the 613 rules set down by god, not the first 10 commandments.
Those laws were clearly made for jew, and had to be followed due to the old covenant
>>1099386
[Robert G. Hoyland] In God's Path
[Khalid Y. Blankinship] The End of the Jihad State
[Hugh Kennedy] The Great Arab Conquests
[Patricia Crone] From Arabian Tribes to Islamic Empire : Army, State and Society in the Near East c. 600–850
>>1099409
>In God's Path
>God
>not Satan
hahaha
>>1099174
The wikipedia talk page is a better read than this thread
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aisha
>>1099394
Then that goes for the 10 commandments as well (both sets, the one of which you cite with thou shalt not kill and all that being the first broken one, not the second revised one god improved on) Which means you're left with only what Jesus said. Meaning gay sex, witchcraft, etc., are all fine and dandy. Those aren't outlawed by Christ. They only come up later in what the apostles said. And that's because they followed the old laws because they didn't have this dumb idea that the old laws didn't have to be followed since Christ said all the old laws still applied and he observed them.
But if you think the 10 commandments and the ones about gays, magic, etc., apply, you must naturally accept all of them including the dietary ones which even Christ observed. And the Bible/god makes no such distinction between which ones are "civil" law and which ones are applicable to "everyone". And if you wanna be technical, none of them including murder ever applied to gentiles, only Jews. Even Christianity according to Christ was for Jews and not gentiles. So, it's really splitting hairs. Either way you look at it, you're fucking up and going against god blatantly.
>>1099429
the only laws that apply to non hebrews are the noahide laws, which are fairly similar to the 10 commandments.
Christians follow all of them, except the one that conflicts with the christian lack of dietary laws
>>1099441
>the only laws that apply to non hebrews are the noahide laws, which are fairly similar to the 10 commandments.
Of which you pulled out of your ass. You either accept all of the old laws or none of them except what Christ said. And if you follow Christ, all of them still apply since he said so. And no laws stated by god applied to all men, only Jews. But if you want to follow god's commandments despite not being a Jew, then there's a lot you need to follow. You're not free to pick and choose which ones you like. Scripture makes no distinction between them, nor does Christ. He merely modifies a few.
>Christians follow all of them, except the one that conflicts with the christian lack of dietary laws
Christ followed them. There's nothing which says that Christians don't have to follow all of the old laws. In fact, Christ says you have to. And if you want to follow what he said, you better crack open the OT and get kosher.
>>1099459
>And if you follow Christ, all of them still apply since he said so.
They applied to the people he was speaking to since they were jews
> But if you want to follow god's commandments despite not being a Jew, then there's a lot you need to follow.
No, just the noahide laws. They are the only laws non-jews have to follow to be righteous people according to the jewish faith
Blah blah blah, my God is bigger than your God, blah. My God was righteous in his killing and yours was just a murderer, blah & blah.
You don't follow my God's rules and will burn somewhere, but I do 't have to follow what Darah Palin says I don't have to Glenn Beck Barrack Obama. Sunday school Hebrew school some Islamic playground, bad because my God is real and yours is just poopy.
David had Uriah killed but damnit he's righteous and anointed and Ann Coulter Hillary Clinton Mujahadin Osama bin Ladin WE created and supported the Shah when he murdered the dissenters so guess what, they hate us, duh, but we are a Christian nation built on the slavery and genocide our OT God condones but Jesus is okay with 4chan fags and anybody else who goes to Richard Nixon's bathroom... Even Jimmy Carter
Help me Obi Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope...
>>1099478
>They applied to the people he was speaking to since they were jews
Then none of the NT even applies to you. So why do you even bother reading it since none of those messages were for you?
>No, just the noahide laws. They are the only laws non-jews have to follow to be righteous people according to the jewish faith
Which is speculation, not stated anywhere in the Bible. But even if you accept that these are the only laws which non-Jews have to follow, wanna see how many crimes/immoral things I can come up with that don't fall under those 7 things which would be considered moral according to this?
>>1099488
>The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14
>>1099496
>So why do you even bother reading it since none of those messages were for you?
why do people bother reading primary historical documents?
Essential none of them were meant for us
>>1099500
Wow...
It's like talking to a Jehovah's Witness, pulling scripture out of your ass with NO literary or historical CONTEXT. You have my sympathies...
Let me guess, Moses wrote the Torah and Ezra was not the JEPD redactor. Praise YHWH for the new generation of Enlightened Internet Atheists.
>>1099504
But it'd make no sense. As a non-Jew according to those 7 things, you do not even have to accept Christ as your savior since he's for Jews, not gentiles. Nor would you follow anything he said, since you only follow 7 laws as given to Noah. Basically, anything the Bible says regarding morality or anything else means jack shit for you and you can close the book as soon as soon as you're done reading maybe half of Genesis or however long it takes for Noah to be out of the picture.
>>1099507
You are a fool.
>For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools.
Romans 1:19-22
>historical debate thread
>people posts wikii as source
We Reddit now lads?
>>1099518
>God looks like an old man
Literally children fairy tail
>>1099518
You're quoting Paul, the Hellenistic Jew who, having never met Jesus, felt it his mission to invent whatever story was necessary to forward his personal position within the Jesus movement an usurp it utterly.
Paul was an evil opportunistic who distorted the teachings of Jesus. It is so sad...
>>1099532
How should God Almighty be represented? As a toddler?
>>1099542
>The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psalm 14:1-2
>>1099552
>God in any material form
>>1099529
Abd Al-Makr please.
Do you prefer links from Christian sources?
>>1098681
I reject it because Aisha is one of the besy real life loli in history
>loyal, obedient
>didn't get mentally broken by having to massage The Prophet's dick between her thighs at 9 and sex at 11
>genuinely seemed like a loving pair, Muhammad adored Aisha as his favorite
>had that Hadith where Muhammad believes rumors that she cucked him with a guard that rescued her. Allah reveals she was innocent.
>Can be cheeky (tricked Muhammad into thinking honey gave him bad breath so he'd stop hanging out with a wife who fed him honey.)
>Was the most theological and intelligent Muslim among his wives.
>>1099562
>fuck art
>>1099552
What does that scripture have to do with Jesus or Paul. He is singing praises to YHWH (LORD)
>>1099566
>Allah reveals she was innocent.
>Allah
>God
>>1099571
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
That anon is atheist btw.
>>1099567
>muh art is iimportant
>>1099566
this, she was influential enough to raise army of 20 thousand.
>>1099575
Allah is just God in Arabic. Christian and Jewish Arabs use it too.
>>1099565
>abd-al makr
who is this guy, stop taking his dick up your ass m8.
>>1099590
Abd = servant
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Arabic_Terms#Makr
>>1099586
Interesting thing, when Muhammad thought he got cucked Ali who the Shi`a venerate was part of the group that told him to divorce Aisha.
She never forgave him for that.
>>1099599
wasn't it because of uthman's assassins were not punished by ali, or he took too much time to take action against the assasins.
>>1099575
The word... Logos.
Standard Hellenistic dogma...
Written well after the time of it's supposed author John.
At least the Qu'ran written in real time and not written years later by people pretended to be the alleged authors (the gospels).
Paul had no authority given to him by anyone except his own Imagination.
The Psalm quote is taken out of context of when it was written, praising YHWH a millennia before Jesus was born.
Just like the JW's
Wow.
Mohamed wrote the Koran.
The same CAN NOT be said of Moses and the Torah.
>>1099616
it was Uthman that wrote down koran as a book, there was also one written by ali.
>>1099625
& Moses?
>>1099627
I'm saying is prophets don't write down the revelations, they tell it their disciple and comrade. then this people writes it down or propagates using oral methods.
>>1099146
>accept she is inferior
Actually Jesus say it himself, it's when this Samaritan woman who had been given the expected bigotry of Jews toward her kind and yet still believed in Jesus power.
It was her faith that saved her son. It was a test and she passed.
>>1099614
That's why she raised an army against Ali, but she already disliked him for trying to get her separated from Muhammad as a child.
>>1099616
>The Psalm quote is taken out of context of when it was written, praising YHWH
>praising YHWH
I know that. I was responding to an atheist. Here, have another Psalm I love:
>How great are your works, O LORD! Your thoughts are very deep! The stupid man cannot know; the fool cannot understand this: that though the wicked sprout like grass and all evildoers flourish, they are doomed to destruction forever; but you, O LORD, are on high forever.
Psalm 92:5-8
PS: Jesus is God.
>>1099677
Last questions
1. Is Moses the author of the Torah?
2. Is Jesus YHWH?
>>1099701
1. Is Moses the author of the Torah?
>All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
2. Is Jesus YHWH?
>Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.
John 14:6-7
>>1098965
Salman Rushdie plz
>>1099711
You did not answer either question...
>>1099723
I did.
>See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in Him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
Colossians 2:8-10
>>1099716
I actually never liked him because the verses which he calls satanic are only a few when in fact, every single verse found in the Koran is satanic since the inspiration is demoniacal.
>>1099591
>Me predicting an arguement that would be used against mine beforehand makes it irrelevant
Really?
>>1099729
These questions are yes or no questions. Either Moses wrote the Torah or he did not. Jesus is YHWH or he is not. I don't understand your reluctance to answer these questions.
- these are not riddles. Yes or No questions. The answers to these questions should be the foundation of your understanding of your faith and it's history.
- i simply can not understand your reluctance (unless you can't answer due to a lack of understanding or a deliberate attempt to deceive.)
>>1099787
>irrelevant
Yes because that earlier post I made makes it obvious that I know that Allah = God in arabic.
The problem though is that Islam's ''Allah'' is NOT God.
>>1099801
Who says so? You? Your pastor? Aren't YHWH and Allah SUPPOSED TO BE the same God as misinterpreted by 3 separate Monotheistic religions?
>>1099788
>God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:14
>Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:58
Jesus used the same phrase “I AM” in seven declarations about Himself. In all seven, He combines I AM with tremendous metaphors which express His saving relationship toward the world. All appear in the book of John. They are I AM the Bread of Life (John 6:35, 41, 48, 51); I AM the Light of the World (John 8:12); I AM the Door of the Sheep (John 10:7, 9); I AM the Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14); I AM the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25); I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6); and I AM the True Vine (John 15:1, 5).
What don't you understand?
>>1099819
You still refuse to answer the question. The answer to both questions is "of course not." It's a no brainer. You drank the Kool Aid and there is no hope for you. You believe the fairy tale and ate part of the problem. You have my sympathies.
Good night...
(Take some time to research JEDP contextual criticism and maybe you'll come to understand when and why the Torah was written and by whom.)
Jesus was a Jew. Why aren't you?
>>1099824
not an arguement
>>1099839
I am not easily tricked, pal.
I know that you are playing dumb.
Read John chapter 1 before you go to sleep (it's another answer).
Remember, the Word became flesh.
Goodnight.
>>1099843
I know, it's not meant to be an argument; it's an answer.
>>1099201
The law doesn't change. They just extended it to say, "Hey, you failed in not being assholes. Here's a simpler guide to not being assholes. Now, you can only follow this new guide if you're reborn or whatever."
>>1099824
Yeah, can you fuck off? This is a history board, not a board for your evangelizing
>>1099852
just report and ignore the autist
>>1099819
Okay... I AM a man. Does that make me Jehovah? How does the use of the 1st person singular present tense conjugation of the verb "to be" in Greek constitute a positive affirmation that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) which more properly means "I shall become" in Hebrew. It's the future perfect tense.
You have not answered the dude's question.
Is Jesus Jehovah?
>>1099873
Jesus, in response to the Pharisees’ question “Who do you think you are?” said, “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds” (John 8:56–59). The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM” statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.
If Jesus had merely wanted to say He existed before Abraham’s time, He would have said, “Before Abraham, I was.” The Greek words translated “was,” in the case of Abraham, and “am,” in the case of Jesus, are quite different. The words chosen by the Spirit make it clear that Abraham was “brought into being,” but Jesus existed eternally (see John 1:1). There is no doubt that the Jews understood what He was saying because they took up stones to kill Him for making Himself equal with God (John 5:18). Such a statement, if not true, was blasphemy and the punishment prescribed by the Mosaic Law was death (Leviticus 24:11–14). But Jesus committed no blasphemy; He was and is God, the second Person of the Godhead, equal to the Father in every way.
No. I didn't ask if Jesus is part of the Trinity or a coequal part of something. The question is: is Jesus Jehovah?
If you truly believe in the Trinity your response should be "of course not". No Christian I have ever personally met has said yes. They skirt around the question by establishing Jesus' place within the Trinity and most, like you, refuse to give a straight answer, but IF you truly believe in the Trinity, then Jesus CAN NOT be Jehovah...
>christcucks spamming a thread about Islam
Don't you have a black man's feet to wash desu?
>>1098943
t. mehmet suleyman
>>1099174
>i have used historical sources and facts for my claim
>post no sources or facts
too bad for you that you can't blow people up through the internet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg
>>1099066
do christians worship those people and think of them as infallible?
the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
—Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:62:64
>>1100842
>pope does something stupid af
>all christians are the pope kek
Lol the current pope is a false af prophet go eat shit wise ass
All the religitards in this thread are unbelievable. Shameful faggots
>>1101628
The quality of discussions on /his/ are absolutely garbage. I've seen better discussions of history on /k/ of all places.
>>1101974
"& Humanities" was a mistake
>>1101998
this entire board was a mistake. that's why moot refused to make it for years
>>1102005
moot was a fag, and the board would be fine without /rel/ and /phil/ and without crossboard shitposting.
>>1101509
DELET THIS
>>1099895
Let's see:
>O Jehovah, hear my prayer; Let my cry for help reach you.
Psalm 102:1
>I said: “O my God, Do not do away with me in the middle of my life, You whose years span all generations. Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; Just like a garment they will all wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. But you are the same, and your years will never end.
Psalm 102:24-27
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/psalms/102/
>Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
Hebrews 1:1-3
>But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.” And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”
Hebrews 1:8-12
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/hebrews/1/
Gee, I wonder why in Hebrews 1 they didn't render ''O Lord'' as ''O Jehovah'' like they always do...because this passage is about Jesus Christ!
>>1099895
>>1102543
Hebrews 1:8-12 and Psalm 102:25-27 are about the attributes of "Jehovah": His Eternity, His Immutability and His Creation of the Heavens and the Earth. Only "Jehovah" has those attributes and since they are explicitly applied to Jesus, in the JW's own Bible, it is undeniable that Jesus is "Jehovah", the Eternal God.
Father = "Jehovah"
Son = "Jehovah"
Holy Spirit = "Jehovah"
JW's own "Aid to Bible Understanding" book admits on pages 884-885 that the spelling of "Jehovah" originated with a Catholic monk named Raymundus Martini in the 13th century. On page, 887, they admit that there is absolutely no evidence that any of the New Testament writers ever used YHWH in their writings.
Any questions?
>>1098681
>claims "there is no religion board"
>Posts in religion board
>>1099356
Not that guy, but from the prolific amount of posts from you, I am willing to bet you have typed smug slander with pictures of a frog attached more than you have actually read the bible.
t. someone who won't make a fool of himself by letting my beliefs get mixed in with pride, self-righteousness, and judgemental condemnation of others
>>1099081
Jesus Christ brought a 'new covenant'.
God saw the life of man through man's own eyes.
The Old Testament isn't to be discarded, but it is not the standard for behavior after Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of man.
>paying attention to hadiths
w e w l a d
>>1103866
t. muslim
Go away.
well...
>>1099183
>since you apparently have the reading comprehension of a 6 year old girl named Aisha.
