Library link: https://mega.nz/#F!AE5yjIqB!y7Vdxdb5pbNsi2O3zyq9KQ
Mornin' /his/.
So, in terms of questions I get on other boards, one of the most common ones is 'how do I summon [thing]' or 'is there a spell for [x]'? The most common answers can be found in the grimoire tradition of Europe which spans from like maybe 1200 to maybe 1800, between the foundation of modern Kabbalah and the writing of Elphais Levi. When someone's talking about “demon summoning” or “Goetia”, they're usually referring to Lemegeton, a text which describes the 72 spirits bound by Solomon, their qualities and means of summoning them, sigils, with other books dealing with planetary magick and angleic material (which is tied more closely to the year). Given that Lemegeton is the most common material, I recommend “Lon Milo Duquette's Illustrated Goetia” for noobs or Henson's Lemegeton for advanced practitioners. There are a lot of material needs for these rites. I'm of the school that you'll do fine just trying to work the material to the best of your ability. IMHO the minimum requirements are a chalk circle or one painted into cloth, and either a black mirror or a source of smoke (aside from various specific sigils). There's a LOT more grimoire material, though, from Grimorium Verum to Black Pullet to various more obscure texts.
Other grimoires are older. Agrippa's three books tend to serve as the basic foundation of Western magick; indeed Dee & Kelley's Enochian elaborations are standardized by Agrippa. Beyond Agrippa there's cultural material like Sefer Raziel or Mandaean pottery spells. Funny, then, that when you go through the fine details of Agrippa he mentions various entities from Mandaean culture and the historical Book of Enoch; indeed there's speculation from myself and others that large chunks of what we consider western magick has its origins with the Mandaeans.
>>899805
In any case, these materials were used by so called 'cunning folk' as the grimoire period wound down. A long time ago Mead wrote about a theoretical “witch cult” and long ago it was debunked....A guy by the name of Andrew Chumbley, practicing occultist and PhD candidate in History was writing a dissertation on possible validations of Mead when he died of asthma shortly after preparing to release some occult books which were pushed back many years. Anyway, some of his assertions can be found in “children of qayin” which is in my Cultus Sabbati folder; it displays photos of “witch jugs” held in museums, the jugs having origins in both America and Europe, they bear marks that look more or less like the sigil methods described by Agrippa and later popularized by Spare and the Chaos Magick traditions. Moreover, we've found a text I also present, the Grimoire of Arthur Gauntlet, a “cunning man” from England who blends well known grimorie material with folk magick not seen elsewhere...possibly a touchpoint by which to validate old witch cults? I leave you to draw your own conclusions.
>>899957
I also have a decent amount of Greek reconstructive material and info on obscure forms of Euro paganism. Not much but it's there. Using my material on Greek Sacred Law one might make a rough reconstruction of Eleusinian mysteries, but it'd be a pain in the ass with no temple or hard answers on Kyekon. More easily reconstructed is the late Greek magical tradition in the Greek Magickal Papyri using Jake Stratton Kent's “Geosophia” as a guide.
Anyway, direct links:
Cultus Sabbati: https://mega.nz/#F!hUAiHTSK!7zcl8cs3IhCd5QqEOCmrPg
Euro: https://mega.nz/#F!wJAnXb4J!4Hkn5E4LJz0c6UYSrj3y5g
Grimoires: https://mega.nz/#F!AExjhAoS!lPomaOs11pcSIQGiSZqEEg
bump?
>IMHO the minimum requirements are a chalk circle or one painted into cloth, and either a black mirror or a source of smoke (aside from various specific sigils)
Could bump with a picture of someone having these things pretty neatly laid out.
>There are a lot of material needs for these rites. I'm of the school that you'll do fine just trying to work the material to the best of your ability.
Part of the fascination of the old grimoires and almost ridiculous requirements laid down in some was not arbitrary in my opinion.
Some of the grimoires almost insist the magician to learn metallurgy to construct the sword, carpentry etc. If one would take seriously on "the quest", even constructing your temple without Wal-Mart type of option and making it yourself, would probably take you to prepare quite some time. Let alone it would have made one learn many useful skills in the process.
Bat-blood gathered at certain hour and date needed for a ritual may sound as ridiculous it is, but this just may be Western style of practicing patience, concentration and determination on the disciple and to prepare for him for the actual summoning.
>>900286
>Bat-blood gathered at certain hour and date needed for a ritual may sound as ridiculous it is, but this just may be Western style of practicing patience, concentration and determination on the disciple and to prepare for him for the actual summoning.
I'm p. neutral when it comes to this stuff.
Simulate as much as possible. Become as skilled as possible. Wing it as circumstance and need dictate.
>>900232
That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.
>>900232
Don't you have neighbours that get upset if you shout in your living room for hours on end?
I've always wanted to ask the devil for one of those badass wolfskin belts like the one he gave Peter Stubbe.
>>900555
>555
Doesn't take that much shouting for that long to perform Lemegeton.
>>900669
okay but still pretty weird no?
>>900683
How is it stranger than any other form of prayer or worship?
Why would your neighbors care or know what you do in the privacy of your own home at the witching hour?
>>900683
I just tell them I'm an actor and film student. Explains most of the props and that I'm usually wasted.
>>901102
Sounds like a plan to me.
>>901430
Remember, it's not lying if it's based in truth and fits the situation.
>>901438
If we view magick from the lens of anthropological analysis, then performativity becomes paramount.
>>901475
Though I am not and have never been a christian, I would go Catholic just because the rest fail to put on a show. I'm technically a Methodist in the land of evangelicals and revivalists, but mass is the only time I haven't been bored or disgusted.
>>901575
I actually like a number of Christist bodies. Catholics at least put on a show. Orthodox Mass ain't so bad.
Unfortunately all my most favorite sections have been oppressed into oblivion.
>>899805
Go back to your containment board.
>>902264
I rather think I'd like to put in the effort of making better focused posts here for the higher level of discourse.
Thanks for the post, though, would you like to talk about any of the texts in the OP or the implications thereof on the theory of witch-cults?
So are you just LARPing, or do you really believe that these rituals will do something?
>>902278
No, because your delusional cult worship belongs on /x/, and has no further implications beyond "you should be banned for your shitposting".
>>902344
Could you please illustrate how I've shitposted?
I present source documents and citations for the materials I'm referring to, in multiple posts, basing discussion around the unfinished work of a PhD candidate in History.
Moreover, there's really nothing in the above material that I have any cult connections to - witchcraft ain't my bag, as much, and the grimoire traditions stands more or less independent to outside religious structures.
>>902315
Do we have to believe them to discuss them seriously? The main library has hundreds if not a few k worth of academic texts I'd be more than happy to delve into with you.
>>902278
Actually, I'm not that guy, but I am curious, why aren't you on /x/? This is very much a discussion of the paranormal, rather than the philosophy or theology of religion.
>>902420
H-how is it not, though, the Euro folder's stuffed with academic texts, from Brill and otherwise, as well as articles.
This also applies to a lesser extent to the Grimoires folder, which presents source texts for the topic I've wrote an OP about, and I do actually touch on theology of Greek religion here (place of the temple and the constituents of kyekon >>899990 ).
If we wanna talk theology of religion I leave that wide open with the Enochian material which is largely rooted in Revelation, as well as the mechanics of usage of Lemegeton.
I'm here because the sticky says religion and the discourse here tends to be a bit higher than on /x/.
>>902428
Good enough for me. I don't care and can ignore threads. I was just momentarily curious.
>>902431
Thanks for the post, always glad to explain what I'm up to.
>>902428
Heathcliff also contains words
That doesn't mean it's related to /lit/.
Fuck off to your containment board, you schizo.
>>902674
Wow, you sure are angry.
>>902685
Do they expect to be taken seriously?
>>902674
So I take that as a no, you don't actually wanna discuss the anthropology or history of obscure religious practices, or any of the myriad of academic materials I posted?
>>902716
Of the first ten files of my euro folder, six are from peer reviewed journals.
They took the topic seriously.
>>902740
There is a vast difference between studying schizophrenia, and being schizophrenic.
The people shitposting these threads aren't objective academics studying the beliefs and practices behind cargo cults.
They're literally the people who believe throwing down flares and putting coconut headphones over your ears will draw in airplanes with relief provisions.
>>902777
You keep saying shitposting, but the only person shitposting here is you. Very loudly.
>>902777
Nice digits.
I don't think dismissal of practices as cargo cults is objective either. I've an undergrad in anthropology. I'd like to talk about any aspect of ritual analysis with you, if only you'd tell me what you'd like to talk about. How about liminality? I recommend Vic Turner's "Ritual Process" on that note.
Bump.
How many of these books would you be able to find in a library? I'm guessing not a lot since Occult literally means hidden.
>>902843
Some of these are pretty hard to find. I've a bit of rare content, particularly Crowley, the Hadean Press files in the Grimoires folder, I've a Motta Equinox with costs a few hundred. Almost none of the Cultus Sabbati material has made it into library circulation as far as I can tell. Let's see, got the Yorke Microfilms of the Warburg Collection, over in Kabbalah I've got the Genizah Fragments, I've got Manly P. Hall's collection of alchemical materials, really the list goes on.
>>902852
>its hard to find, therefore it's worth reading
My post is unique. Please add it to your dumbass archive of superstitious cult nonsense.
Currently working my way through Revolt Against the Modern World. Would this be a good place to ask questions without shitposting about /pol/?
Just started reading Christianity: The First 3000 Years by Diarmaid McCulloch. Got any occult material related to early Christianity, OP?
>>902882
Did an occultist fuck your girlfriend or something?
>>902929
Thanks man, I fucking love Gnostic stuff, but have a hard time finding it.
So, I'm reading back to find the references I couldn't track down, but every once in a while I come across a sentence in Evola that I just cannot decipher. You guys are the closest things to a reading group I have, so I thought I'd talk it out with you. I think this will be productive because though I can't penetrate the meaning, I think understanding the thought process behind these passages is probably the key to the text. Here's the latest stumper:
"The 'formative process' always encounters resistance from matter, which in its determinations caused by time and space acts in a differentiating and particularistic sense in relation to the effective historical application of the one principle that in itself is superior and antecedent to these manifestations."
OK, typing it out, I've parsed a bit more out of this. The determinations caused by time and space refers to the contingent arrangement of matter in a particular chemical and physical form. But I don't understand what he means by it having a particular differentiating and particularistic sense in relation to the effective historical application of the one principle. I understood the one principle to be supranatural, beyond the influence of contingent material affairs. So how can mere matter by it's peculiar arrangements act on the first principle? Do we mean the way the first principle is applied in any situation is made different and unique by the particular physical character of the situation, and by that the One Principle brings about various shapes?
The fuck is the point of this thread? You refer to 'questions' you seem to think we care about in your OP, but no one on this board actually does.
Sure there are academic works on witchcraft, but you're adopting a stance that leads me to believe you actually believe this crap.
>>>/x/
I find this shit interesting op, keep posting. What do you have on alchemy, especially specific magnum opuses (opi?) for philosopher's stones?
What's up with all the buttmad fags?
Boards house a variety of content and we all have to share. If you want you're own little space with content that only caters to you, leddit might be more up your alley.
I don't even particularly care for this thread but it is equally valid, if not more valid, than all the retarded christposting that floods this board.
>>903981
Thanks, m8.
>>903096
>"The 'formative process' always encounters resistance from matter, which in its determinations caused by time and space acts in a differentiating and particularistic sense in relation to the effective historical application of the one principle that in itself is superior and antecedent to these manifestations."
Initiation is a pain in the ass and nine times out of ten the culture you're born into only impede.
>to the effective historical application
tbqh famalam, Evola bitching about correct application is a pot/kettle situation. His revisionary nature's as bad as the left neopagans just in a different direction.
>So how can mere matter by it's peculiar arrangements act on the first principle?
Think in terms of Jain karma; circumstance of birth is like a fine dust under the gem of your Being, your job is to wipe it clear.
>Do we mean the way the first principle is applied in any situation is made different and unique by the particular physical character of the situation, and by that the One Principle brings about various shapes?
Yuh.
>>904049
>fine dust under the gem
"Fine dust layered on", need coffee.
>>904023
that's a nice trip, man
>>904080
It's just a cracked hash, man.
there was a lot less complaining in the last thread
A lot of religions seem to be optimistic insofar that they value concepts like 'divine love, 'divine bliss', 'oneness', and so on. They are convinced of the benevolence of God, if you will.
I was wondering if there was a tradition that has a very hard-line stance on pessimism, where there is not a single form of benevolence in existence (or outside of existence for that matter). Gnostics could be called pessimistic but they still believe that there's a good guy at the top of the chain, so to speak.
>>904483
I'd be reluctant to describe Gnostics as that carrying that sort of like Nihilism; at least it would depend greatly on the particular Gnostic sect.
That said, I like the Jain perspective, it's rather fatalistic and proposes a life of suffering not unlike it's cousin Buddhism, it's just not got a God or singular savior.
Carvaka comes close but it's joyful atheism.
Hope that helps.
Might a thread more in line with common topics be something y'all want?
Howabout an Abrahamic mysticism thread? Gnosticism, Kabbalah, etc. Maybe do a library update with my Mandaean materials?
bump?
Is anything know about Gnostic practices?
Did they do some kind of meditation practice, or prayer? Gnosis seems very much in line with samadhi or something of the likes, but I've never read anything about gnostic practices.
>>905396
My library has:
http://www.brill.com/practicing-gnosis
>Ritual, magic, liturgy, and theurgy were central features of Gnosticism, and yet Gnostic practices remain understudied. This anthology is meant to fill in this gap and address more fully what the ancient Gnostics were doing. While previously we have studied the Gnostics as intellectuals in pursuit of metaphysical knowledge, the essays in this book attempt to understand the Gnostics as ecstatics striving after religious experience, as prophets seeking revelation, as mystics questing after the ultimate God, as healers attempting to care for the sick and diseased. These essays demonstrate that the Gnostics were not necessarily trendy intellectuals seeking epistomological certainities. They were after religious experiences that relied on practices. The book is organized comparatively in a history-of-religions approach with sections devoted to Initiatory, Recurrent, Therapeutic, Ecstatic, and Philosophic Practices. This book celebrates the brilliant career of Birger A. Pearson.
An article on a mantra like practice called "The Alphabet in Mandaean and Jewish Gnosticism", and the article "Mystery of the Five Seals" delves into possible modes of ritual initiation.
>>905463
Nice. Thanks m8.
>>905491
No problem always here to help.
>>899805
hey, these threads are back! i was worried the christians had run them out on the rails, and i was sort of unwilling to go to /x/ to see if i was right
your grimoire folder has been of great help in a paper i've been writing, along with most of the kabbalah and thelema folders; what i'd like to know is if any sort of harm can come from reading material that has esoteric power imbued upon it? it could just be my inbuilt sense of christian guilt mentally punishing me for reading stuff i know my grandmother would be horrified by, but i'd rather not risk it.
>>905992
>what i'd like to know is if any sort of harm can come from reading material that has esoteric power imbued upon it?
I actually just made a thread about that precisely. Power of belief and such; I didn't have much will to source stuff, so I'll probably be rewriting it all over soon, but it should give you an idea of how far this rabbit-hole goes:
>>>/x/17524147
>>905517
What're the earliest sources you know of for Hatha Yoga?
>>906029
Pali Canon has references to The Buddha doing shit similar to Kechari Mudra, which would not surprise me if he spent time with the Skull Tappers. He also seemingly did the heel-perineum thing.
Amṛtasiddhi is I think the first thing that's Hatha Yoga as we'd recognize it, which itself is a codification of older more established material.
>>905992
You shouldn't feel guilty. The Catholics are still producing specific types of mystic initiates across different monastic orders. Just be slightly skeptical and don't necessarily trust any epiphanies you have at first. The barrier to entry is super high.
>>906126
^This anon knows what he's on about.
>>905992
Also, if you would like someone with an academic background and knowledge on the subject to look over your paper for you, I do not mind. Find a free place to host it and post the link.
>>906194
Thanks, m8, think my esoteric related projects are done for the semester tho.
So I'm doing some good old comparative religion here and I don't remember any of this in sunday school, not that I ever went. The old testament is fun again.
>>906304
Is that Kaplan's?
Anyway, yeah, check Agrippa for some weird Christian tables of correspondence (that's largely how Dee & Kelley encoded their work, as mentioned above).
>>906329
http://smile.amazon.com/Tantra-Illuminated-Philosophy-Practice-Tradition/dp/0989761304
want
>>906356
>Berkeley
I BET this dude's associated with Mark D. or his Trike temples.
>>906366
Been wanting for awhile now
Gonna make a Bib request. Any Bibnig seeing this add to the bounty
>>906366
>>906384
>Christopher Wallis
>Christopher Wallace
>zoom into triangle on picture
Tupac is alive and lerminater confirmed
Btw, who the fuck is Mark D & watzz Kike temple?
And, do you have a Bib or O.bz account?
>>906304
Kabbalah is just a Satan-denying rip-off of Zoroastrianism.
All modern day "Occult / Magick" is a rip-off of Kabbalah.
Kabbalah is a rip-off of Mazdyasna (aka Zoaroastrianism).
>>906402
Eh? Care to elaborate on that?
>>906399
>Bib
?
Nah, TO doesn't want me even though I try to pass 'em rare scans every now and then. Fuck 'em.
http://www.anuttaratrikakula.org/
>>906402
Or, like every other religious practice ever, ever, it started as a seed of culturally unique material which syncretized as contact was made with other traditions as circumstance dictates.
Everyone whines about the Jews lifting (and not much, hilariously) material from Egypt or Babylon or wherever, but nobody gives a shit when Ancient Greece cribs notes from Syria.
>>906413
Even the modern day groups like the Temple of Set which disavow the Kabbalah? And Jake Stratton Kent's Geosophia which was rooted in the Greek Magickal Papyri?
>>906422
Bibliotik
I'm new to it. I'll check if inviting schizophrenics from the internet is allowed. If so I'll gladly send you an invite
http://www.tantrikstudies.org/blog/2015/7/31/light-on-tantra-tantrloka-11-21
It appears Biggie did a lil Tantraloka translation.
Checking ur link now
>>906422
It's because the Jews pretend like they are the source of the knowledge because God revealed it to them and only would have revealed to them because they are the Chosen.
>>906402
Zurvanism > Mazdaism desu famalam.
>>906434
Jai Fuckin' Maaa!
>>906439
And like every other exoteric tradition doesn't claim to be the best/fastest/easiest route to Attainment? It's a double standard critique that holds no water in the face of the real work of comparative religion or anthropological analysis.
>>906431
I'm not familiar with those sects. Do they deny the Evil Principle? Do they trivialize the Evil Principle and blur the lines between Good and Evil?
>>906413
You're cute. Hermes Trismegistus would like a word.
>>906465
Gonna be Power User in a couple days. Will send you an invite as a thanks for the library and for use augmenting it in the future
Also
>Jai Fuckin' Maaa!
I don't speak low caste
>>906465
Would you trust a path that says that it is merely sufficient?
>>906472
Temple of Set is in Adoration of the Evil principle.
I dunno what your take on the underlying origin of the entities of GMP, but I'd definitely not call them evil from my experience.
>>906496
>Would you trust a path that says that it is merely sufficient?
It's refreshing.
One can attain via "...practices more or less like my own." * "I want each man to cut his own way through the jungle."
~Uncle Ed.
>>906495
Do you need a throwaway or you mind posting one of yours or what?
>I don't speak low caste
m8y i'll tell u wut
>>906519
I recall there being some inactive forum with you and another occultnigger. That still up? I'll PM you there asking for a throwaway
>>906532
No and even if it were I cycle through them p. regularly. Lemme whip one up.
>>906519
It is refreshing. I was being facetious there. Shame you can't get the memesters in on it. Gotta nail their sun gods to the trees or jack off into piss bottles to get their attention.
>>906539
I know right?
>>906537
>>906532
[email protected]
>>906563
So that forum is dead?
>>906580
If you mean osoaa.org, yes, it's dead. Nothing came out of it.
>>906563
I so!etimes worry about the day I temper a sense of humor so sublime that I reify myself as the risen sun of the new age and tell people not to worship me or make worshiping the stars edgier than a box of lovecraftian knives. Then I remember that's the point and I just haven't let myself in on what the joke is yet.
>>906630
Replied
>>905992
>i was worried the christians had run them out on the rails, and i was sort of unwilling to go to /x/ to see if i was right
I sure hope not. I'm a christfag, and this is my favorite thread on /his/
>>906640
Tired of spiritual authors feeling the need to stare mysteriously for pictures
>>906859
Cool, I'mma give you folks some love soon, I still don't think I've run a Gnostic thread here yet and it seems the other Christfriends don't seem quite as up on their knowledge as I'd hope.
>>906896
I really hope you mean a thread for people with direct knowledge of God,and not the death cult
>>906922
?
I'm talking about doing a thread on Gnosticism m8y.
>>906939
I know, was just giving you a hard time. Don't like enthusiasts.
>>906948
At least call me a nigger or a faggot or something so I know you're tryin' to bring the bantz and I don't take you seriously.
>>906892
Say that to my face and not online and see what happens.
>>906971
>bantz
No, but I for real dont like enthusiasts.
>>907046
What's wrong with being enthusiastic about God?
>>907013
I raise you a spooky Tibetan
>>906896
My knowledge is lacking, but that's why I'm here.
>>907064
Try it and let me know.
>>907074
I'm having trouble remembering a single movie where this guy didn't play some kind of wizard or supernatural entity. I think he is one.
>>906971
Obtw, Phil Hine reczz it
http://enfolding.org/book-review-tantra-illuminated/
I’m often asked by correspondents if there’s “one book” that will cover all aspects of tantra for a general reader. Of course there are many books which make the bold claim of being “the only book” a reader will ever need, but if there’s one book that I would unhesistatingly recommend to anyone – indeed that deserves a place on any bookshelf – it would be Christopher Wallis’ Tantra Illuminated (Mattamayūra Press, 2013, 506pp, p/bk).
This is not a book of ritual, nor is it jammed full of practices. Nor is it an attempt to syncretise tantrik teachings with western magical methods and ideas. People chasing “transgressive spirituality” or darque grimoires will have to look elsewhere. What Tantra Illuminated is though, is a clear and thorough introduction to the philosophy and history of nondual Śaiva Tantra from a scholar-practitioner who has brought together his own tantra practice with a rigorous approach to the very latest scholarly work on the subject – creating a unique work which will, I am sure, be of interest to anyone with a serious interest in Tantra.
>>906439
Ain't even the case, Jewish lore attributed the Sefer yetzirah to Adam
>>907492
Then slightly later the mysticism get attributed to Enoch and Ezekiel.
>>907177
It's p. common, and I may grab it for the newfriends, but really the Tantra library's got plenty of intro texts, that fill the above described job AND show you the breadcrumb trail to transgressive and darque materials.
There's sort of a reason that I've limited the Nath material. Yes, they're legit inside the traditional lines, but really they're a gateway more than anything, and it's not material one needs seriously handheld through as opposed to the more obscure traditions past the gate.
Bump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr0g2EgWdXI
>>907177
Would you happen to have a link to a PDF of that book?
>>909168
I'm having a hard time finding one; but as mentioned I've got at least three intro tantra texts in the Eastern folder.
>>909314
Ah true. Yeah I had a hard time finding one as well. What do you think about The Serpent Power by Avalon? I bought it cause I found a cheap copy but I haven't started it yet.
Won't be surprised or disappointed if you can't answer, but I'll ask anyway.
Has anyone here gone through it? What's on the other side? Who made it? Why?
>>909599
>The Serpent Power by Avalon
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=55918A9F57F0319E1675598568E19033
>>909660
>Seal Nine
Second Mars, correct? I've worked Greater Key's materials but not sequentially. Otherwise you'll need to be less vague on what you're referring to.
If you're referring to the process of the Godnames, yeah, the Golden Dawn and A.'.A.'. initiation seek to comment on that.
>>909698
Don't know, used the pic because it's the closest I could find. Have you ever seen it in your dreams? Had "someone" try to get you to "go through"?
>>909716
Who and through what?
I've been through a number of initiatory rites. I've been through a number of spiritual ordeals. I've been using AP to project through the spheres/planes for like 15 years.
I'd be happy to chat but you're going to have to be less vague and more topical.
>>909724
Have you ever had a dream where the seal of solomon/star of david was in front of you, and someone was telling you it's a gate, and you should go through it? If so, is it a trap? Or a way out?
>>909748
Sounds like a dream, mate.
If it's a bare hexagram in your dreams then it's probably Solar in nature/related to Tifaret. If you practice already start basic solar worship. If not start basic yoga.
>>909666
Thanks but you didn't answer my question. I asked what you think of the book. Have you read it?
>>909777
Oh shit, misread entirely.
Serpent Power's decent if you're still fairly new with the corpus of material. I like other of Avalon's texts more. Word as Power, Kularnava Tantra (censored as it is), etc.
>>909758
Say there were two circular borders around it with some kind of writing, and there was a sense of brass or bronze?And worship the sun? Why? Is it hungry? Imagine the horror of realizing you unconciously built a shrine to Ra in your bedroom, and you awoke one night to it feeding on you...what would you do, AoT?
>>909814
Somebody needs to take his thorazine.
>>909814
Bronze is a Venereal metal when using tables. Brass covers Venus and Mars.
>why worship the Sun
Because Sol is the Father of all Life.
>unconsciously building a shrine
There are no accidents; even chaos follows laws of entropy.
>what would you do
Yoga and ritual. My dreams don't bug me.
>>909814
Yo, the sun is a symbol of bountiful giving, fullness to the point of overflowing. See the analogy btwn the sun and the form of the good in platos republic. You worship it to align yourself with it and pick up more of that sweet spirit light.
Alternatively, Jesus!
>>909799
Haha, it happens. I am really into Theravada Buddhism and Hinduism (I've read a lot of the Upanishads and whatnot so far, among other things). I don't know shit about Tantra yet. I have quite a bit of experience with concentration meditation and yoga. I have the Tirumandiram on my nightstand right now, along with the Serpent Power. Both of which I have not started yet because I've got unfinished books atm (you know how it is). What would you recommend for someone like me?
>>909857
>Theravada Buddhism
All these Buddhafags, I just don't grok the thing, man.
>I don't know shit about Tantra yet.
Jan Fries' Kali Kaula is gr8 for history and contemporary context. If you understand the gist of the rest of Indic thought already you're set for various Tantra intros. So Kali Kaula, the one /x/phile linked, and hm, I dunno...maybe "I AM THAT" for what it looks like when someone working the Natha cult Attains.
>>909846
Eh. Maybe it's needed. But psychosis can be induced. And would you out yourself to a shrink, your friends, or your folks if you started experiencing coincidental commonalities between your weird dreams and real life? It's easy to say one way or the other until it happens to you. Which I hope it doesn't, because you might be a decent guy.
>>909847
Ok. Thanks for the response.
>>909855
I'll look it up. Suppose the sun isn't what we've been led to believe, though?
>Jesus
I seek to know him, but if he answers I don't hear.
>>909931
Mate if you're having actual psychological distress seek professional therapeutic or medical treatment before starting to read even the beginner's folder.
There's a reason folks like Regaride want you get get a solid block of psychoanalysis in before you start occulting.
Can somebody explain to me WTF has Sophia done?
Did she cause the material world's existence, or the Demiurge's?
>>909875
>All these Buddhafags, I just don't grok the thing, man.
You wanted to play in the darkness.
>>910184
Also, I recall The Ape of Thoth saying he's a son of Sophia, what does it mean cosmologically speaking?
>>910303
>Also, I recall The Ape of Thoth saying he's a son of Sophia, what does it mean cosmologically speaking?
Never ever once made a claim of this nature or similar and I challenge anyone asserting otherwise to point out in the archive where I've said it.
>>910250
Yeahyeahyeah, it's not an unintelligible position, just WHY.
>>910184
I love reposting this image.
bump?
>>910799
No, the Buddhist Dharmas will grant liberation. This I don't deny; it's just my autistic nitpicks.
I dunno, I see a lot of ex Catholics with a lot of sectors of Western Buddhism, maybe that's a component of my overall gripe - the cultures seems similar.
>>910808
I don't put much stock in observing the culture. One can find cringeworthy as well as sane, skilled occultists. Indeed the former are more common etc
>>910815
Oh sure, the ex-catholic thing was a subtle jab at my own preferred cults (>tfw Gnostic Mass full of people bored with regular Mass).
Say, do you have any material contemporary to Vangisa? Of all the super early Buddhist material I'm liking stuff attributed to and around him the most.
>>910826
>>910815
[1027] Wait on the men of learning; look
That learning nowise injured be;
For 'tis the root of holy life;[28]
Hence bear the Doctrine in your hearts.
[1028] Knowing the sequence of the text,[29]
And versed in what the text doth mean,
[355] Apt to interpret and explain:[30]
This scholar grasps the Norm aright,
And well its sense doth ascertain.
[1029] By patience eager purpose grows,[31]
Up surges effort; then he weighs;
Thus timely exercising will,[32]
Within he grows composed, intent.
~Psalms of the Brethren
>>910826
What are your autistic nitpicks?
No I don't have anything on him. Name a title and I can czech around
>>910857
We've been over some of 'em together already; the systematized worship system arising out of a dude who allegedly brute forced his way to Enlightenment seems paradoxical and I don't think the division of truth into strata helps me.
Like everyone before and around Siddhartha attained with Yoga. Siddhartha attained with Yoga (tell me the neutralizing of Mara wasn't yogic, I dare you), and then taught Yoga, among other things, so like why do I need Buddhism if I'm armed with Yoga and an unflinching willingness to confront suffering?
>>910874
Well it seems to me that Buddha did make an innovation: applying states of extreme concentration to observation of phenomena with an eye to certain features (Three Characteristics). Where was that known before?
There are many strains of Buddhism. I wouldn't agree with many.
>>910897
Thought the Gunas (if that's what you're referring to) are as early as Mahabharata with origins out to as early as 900 BCE.
>>910924
>Gunas
No. Impermanence, non-Self, and suffering
Also classifying experience into the skhandas and deconstructing experience that way is another innovation
>>910938
>Impermanence, non-Self, and suffering
Fucking derf.
>skhandas
I get the feelie that this was more important to the phenomenology of yoga, tbqh. That said, I still have quibbles about components, meaning, and trajectory w/r/t "I".
>>910999
>derf
u wot m8
>I get the feelie that this was more important to the phenomenology of yoga, tbqh.
Source?
>That said, I still have quibbles about components, meaning, and trajectory w/r/t "I".
Such as
Hey Ape, I think Buddhism and yoga/vedanta are very much intertwined in many ways, complementing and supplementing each other well. The Pali canon has very many great nuggets elucidated very clearly. I don't care so much for Mahayana stuff.
>>911029
>Source?
None, I'm just saying this perspective seems to be important to yogic practice.
>Such as
I actually dunno if right this second is the best, maybe I can summarize coherently, I dunno. So if we think of the aggregates as reflections, which is something I THINK I'm getting implied in Abhinava, then it still has fundamental source in, and qualities of, the Supernal I - this goes back to my repeated and fundamental assertion that the Maya is sacred too, to be embraced less than denies, and I think Buddha(ism) sorta approaches this more practically than theoretically; they identify the fundamental issue of the ephemeral of, say, the emotional image, but what they do with it sits with me less well than how the Trika approach the issue.
>>911039
Most of Indic thought will get you where you wanna go, many of my personal bitches are aesthetic/cosmetic in the face of actual Work.
>>911107
Another question for you, seeing as you're basically one of the handful of people on this board who isn't 1) a total piece of shit; 2) a paid shill who derails shit; or 3) an idiot. I've followed a couple of your threads, and you're a fascinating person. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be drawn to the more ceremonial, syncretic, Western esoteric traditions. What draws you to that?
See, to me, I've read a lot about Indic, and other Eastern stuff (especially Japanese stuff as well), and it seems to the point, simple, and clean (for the most part). When I have read stuff from the OTO, GD, AA, SRIA, Theosophical Society, etc, I feel like it is pointlessly dense. It almost seems like the Renaissance people who rediscovered Hermeticism were autistic and so they fueled "muh super secret esoteric clubs", each guy trying to one up the next by writing even more obscuratist, contrived stuff.
So, again, what draws you to this stuff, particularly the complicated components that make up the whole of your core practice? Forgive me if I have misunderstood your positions, btw.
>>911155
Everything is a syncretism of something else.
Also, I've been ripped from my the traditions of the culture of my ancestors on one half, and the other half seems to have been at some point tied to the Platonic School in Venice.
I used to hate the bloodline theory but the more I look the more that it seems my apple didn't fall far from someone's Tree of Life.
Oddly for me it's the opposite. Tantra is two or three orders of magnitude more complex than the West. One failure of the West is to highlight the actually relevant material; Crowley tried, and even he didn't do that well.
My practice is as complex as need demands...right now that's a high complexity thing. Sometimes it's just maintaining basic plateaus of devotion; hopping plateaus is the complex and labor intensive part. Seriously think of it like sports.
>>911192
I'm not that Anon and I am going to be blunt here without meaning any disrespect, what is the point of it all?
Does it help you gain material wealth?
Does it help you hone your mind?
Does it serve as an emotional outlet?
What is the egoistical benefit of anything related to this threads subject matter?
>>911264
>Does it help you gain material wealth?
Define your parameters? I work in anthro. Sorta. It puts food on my table, this body of knowledge. It has not made me fantastically wealthy, but it's helped sustain me through rough times.
>Does it help you hone your mind?
Absolutely.
>Does it serve as an emotional outlet?
Probably; I don't like the model of yoga as self help but it's hard to argue with the research outcomes. Maybe they're cultural, I dunno.
>What is the egoistical benefit of anything related to this threads subject matter?
I dunno, do you think you'll get utility from the revelation that spooks are, themselves, spooks? 'Cause that's the sort of insight you get from the the traditions of careful contemplatives through history.
A more copout-y answer is who the fuck are you to intrude on my Aesthesis, fuck off and get your own. Some of us are built to be mystics and savor mystic wines, some of us are built to be Stirnerfags and savor the wines of ego and it's own.
>>911280
>I work in anthro. Sorta. It puts food on my table, this body of knowledge. It has not made me fantastically wealthy, but it's helped sustain me through rough times
That's what I was wondering about.
I'm personally fascinated by propagation of ideas throughout ages and how they survive, change and get adapted. I'm envious that you can make a living off of pursuing this.
>>911313
I took a similar path with a very similar anthropological interest, only I ended up pursuing psychology with a focus on counselling and phenomenology as a hobby because I found I preferred practicing what I read about to studying it. I also have a fascination with memes. I mean I originally pursued smoking weed and getting cucked by my ego and have only recently gotten around to what I started, but you get the idea.
>>911280
>Some of us are built to be mystics and savor mystic wines, some of us are built to be Stirnerfags and savor the wines of ego and it's own
I often fail to see the difference.
>>911437
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDgKXBZtl5A
You ever see Dave Brokie's usage of the Chaos-sphere? Even drops "Do what thou wilt" a few times.
>>911446
I've never been much for gwar. Not surprising though, just about every metal musician is an accomplished occultist.
Speaking of the chaos sphere, I've been absolutely mesmerized by how syncretic one man can be. I can count at least 6 things I have ironically been into at some point or another and another 5 I'm more or less halfway serious about.
Hey Ape of Thoth hear me out. Serious question. Would you consider taking someone as an apprentice/student/mentee?
>>911633
I will submit to any test or whatever is necessary to prove myself. I'm very interested.
>>911711
Ok, what sort of instruction are you after? Because I can only instruct in to traditions with anything resembling authoritativeness, only one of which is I have tangible initiation in.
If you just wanna come along for the ride, read what's recommended and ask me questions. If you want A.'.A.'. instruction, how many of the 22 texts in the first section have you read and how long will it take you to finish what you've not read?
http://hermetic.com/crowley/aa/
>>911633
I never got into Crowley which is a shame, but have been catching up. I've mostly spent the last few months reinitiating myself and studying up on tantra ever since I got a call from Shiva and another from Maa.
>>911722
If I am being fair, I know little on the A.'.A.'. itself but it might be exactly what I am looking for, which is why I am interested in learning. I am not quite sure what 22 things you're referring to because neither in your library nor on that page do I see any enumeration of 22.
>>911759
Notice, Crowley's form of the A.'.A.'. Temple of Initiation; Tau in Triangle. This is a Freemasonic convention, brought into AC's theories of ritual space.
Pic related.
It's the sigil of the fire exorcism in DBoE and the core internal sigil of the Wytchfathers that forms the base of the full form sigil for the given godform.
>>911765
>neither in your library nor on that page do I see any enumeration of 22.
>The Student Reading Curriculum
>1. The Equinox, Volume I, Nos. 1-10 by Aleister Crowley and others. (As in, like 10 books).
through
>12. The Book of Lies (PDF) by Aleister Crowley.
Equals 22.
The Sphinx may have four powers but they're all predicated on the zeroth power: Pay attention.
>>911770
Now, the X is of course, an X, but inside a circle as it's recommended for DBoE's salt exorcism, it looks like pic related...and the X forms the main body of the sigils of The Wytchmothers.
>>911781
Ah I see, you counted each of the Equinoxes separately but not the parts of his complete works. Gotcha.
>>911781
yo, not the cat you messaged, but i've read the first four equinoxes, all the other crowley except lies, and all the other books except levi although sometimes in more recent translations. If it meant i'd qualify for personal instruction, i could finish the rest by the beginning of june no problem, earlier if necessary. I'd say a couple weeks if it wasn't exam time.
>>911791
>parts of his complete works
Yeah, that's a bit fucky, his Complete has appeared as separate and single volumes.
>>911793
>93
You'll need to pass a student exam but yeah, newer editions are preferred in terms of practicality imho because AC didn't have access to shiny new editions.
I posted a drop email earlier in the thread, hit me up. [email protected]
How bout I begin prepping myself by reading those 22 things and then I'll hit you up in one of your future threads, and we'll see how we feel then?
Hey what rank are you
>>911107
>None, I'm just saying this perspective seems to be important to yogic practice.
I'm not convinced you can support that historically
>I actually dunno if right this second is the best, maybe I can summarize coherently, I dunno. So if we think of the aggregates as reflections, which is something I THINK I'm getting implied in Abhinava, then it still has fundamental source in, and qualities of, the Supernal I - this goes back to my repeated and fundamental assertion that the Maya is sacred too, to be embraced less than denies, and I think Buddha(ism) sorta approaches this more practically than theoretically; they identify the fundamental issue of the ephemeral of, say, the emotional image, but what they do with it sits with me less well than how the Trika approach the issue.
The Buddhist take on the aggregates is painfully technical and analytic. That's unique.
Still want your quibbles wrt "I"
I downloaded the Kabbalah set a few months ago. What should I get read first to get a basic understanding of it?
How does Kabbalah line up with Christianity?
>>910538
>Never ever once made a claim of this nature or similar and I challenge anyone asserting otherwise to point out in the archive where I've said it.
Not a son of Sophia, a creation of Sophia:
https://desustorage.org/his/thread/877606/#889901
So does MATTER in that pic include humans, then? Even human souls?
>>912067
>How does Kabbalah line up with Christianity?
Kether = The Father
Chokmah = The Son
Binah = The Holy Ghost
“In the Beginning was the Word, the Logos, who is Mercury; and is therefore to be identified with Christ. Both are messengers; their birth mysteries are similar; the pranks of their childhood are similar. In the Vision of the Universal Mercury, Hermes is seen descending upon the sea, which refers to Mary. [The path of Beth on the Tree of Life shows him descending from Kether, the Crown, upon Binah, the Great Sea.]The Crucifixion represents the Caduceus; the two thieves, the two serpents; the cliff in the vision of the Universal Mercury is Golgotha; Maria is simply Maia with the solar R in her womb.
>>910538
>Yeahyeahyeah, it's not an unintelligible position, just WHY.
Good question. Crowley insisted I read, The Dhammapada, and I thought he made a strong case. I never saw a substantial rebuttal from the Thelemic camp, only aspersions.
But I actually came at the dharma from Zhuang-Lao Daoism, following its thread through Chinese mahayana Buddhism into Zen. A big part of it is probably Joel's influence. He'd leveled-up beyond any Thelemite I'd known and I wanted that.
>>911192
>One failure of the West is to highlight the actually relevant material; Crowley tried, and even he didn't do that well.
This.
That said, acquiring the knowledge necesarry to separate wheat from chaff is itself rewarding and useful.
>>911633
>I've always maintained that I would not take students from 4chan.
kek
>>911812
>Yeah, that's a bit fucky, his Complete has appeared as separate and single volumes.
Keith once tried to explain the value of these. It was so vapid, I can't even remember what he said. Care to take a.stab at it?
The only purpose I've found is that it demonstrates what a horrible poet he was. It makes his claims about the Holy Books more credible.
>>911192
What is the "relevant" material? Something you personally have found useful?
Keep in mind we are not living in 20th or early 21st century, any (western) knowledge about Eastern practices was scarce (So scarce that his mentor Allan Bennett was the first man to establish Buddhist mission to England)
Crowley's drawings and writings on synthesizing Tree of Life with Tattvas and Chakras should be already enough for anyone familiar with Eastern metaphysics.
Basically whole thing boils down in the imperfection of language. Some languages being able to convey hidden meanings connected with words.
I would also accuse anyone of being hypocrite who claims he has understood some complex Eastern works like Tao Te King without even using the original translation as a reference and having basic understanding of that said language.
I don't care if the terminology used talks about "Opihidian Vibrations" or "Kundalini"
The fact is that there is something very Reptilian or Snaky about that Force.
>>913201
>I would also accuse anyone of being hypocrite who claims he has understood some complex Eastern works like Tao Te King without even using the original translation as a reference and having basic understanding of that said language.
Yep. I wouldn't waste time on anyone who hadn't realized it's mostly about the principles of good government, either.
>>913201
Example:
I was able to finish Yoga Sūtras of Patañjali (English translation) in 6 hours.
Then I started to read it in Sanskrit and I have been studying it for years. You cannot even get past the first few lines since the instructions convey mutliple meanings. Yogic, metaphysical, practical and moral.
>>913256
Okay. I know you're uncomfortable with the idea, but it's a curriculum intended for students of magic and mysticism in a line of initiation of wch I am heir. It's not neuroscience. Claiming that it is demeans both, to my mind.
>>913194
Only thing that really comes to mind is how often Uncle Ed references Tannhauser.
>>913177
It is what it is. The students around these parts I'd be most interested in taking haven't asked, because, I hope, in some capacity they already Know.
>>913201
What gets you Attaining. What is useful for me may not be useful for others. In some senses the 'relevant material' isn't even singular volumes, but rather how things thread together. Example: Liber L vel Legis does very little without further contextualization in the Thelemic mode of practice, whereas Libri 65 & 7 (in my experience) are pretty well intelligible to most anyone in a serious Western transmission - it's telling that in the original A.'.A.'. instruction, study of Libri 65 & 7 come before L.
>Crowley's drawings and writings on synthesizing Tree of Life with Tattvas and Chakras should be already enough for anyone familiar with Eastern metaphysics.
Sure.
>Basically whole thing boils down in the imperfection of language. Some languages being able to convey hidden meanings connected with words.
No, there is no speech that does not draw directly from or touch upon the Heart. The language is largely primordial and pure; the poverty is in our understanding.
>I would also accuse anyone of being hypocrite who claims he has understood some complex Eastern works like Tao Te King without even using the original translation as a reference and having basic understanding of that said language.
I would too.
>>913213
^^^^^^^^^
>>913218
Just wait until you start on Twilight Language. I've been slowly going over Abhinavagupta for, what, five years now.
>>913360
I, personally, feel there's a component that even AC would have been interested in provided he had modern instrumentation; the article on Ethyl Oxide and comments on the Star-Sponge only reinforce this feelpinion.
>>912033
I thought I gave 'em? Buddhism seems to take the aggregates as a complex web of side effects (non)arising from the emergence of their interplay/outerplay; these are obscurations of the mindstream occluding Self-ness.
Whereas more traditional modes of Hindi tantra view these accretions as componential of Self-ness, just gross aspects of it. The primordial I vibrates outward towards an object that is also a different function of that primordial I (Shiva consciousness); the interference of these waves creates the reflective experience-phenomenon of "I want", "I feel", "I need", "I like", "I view", etc., which are appendations to the fundamental I.
Buddha and Abhinavagupta are identifying the same problem; the disconnection above the layer of pure Self-ness, it's only a difference of how we view them - Buddhist aggregates are to be transcended through withdraw, as Trika seeks transcendance through interface.
I quote (paraphrase) Ponty for the bajillionth time: "Any logically consistent/sufficiently developed transcendental idealism rids the world of transcendence and opacity." Buddhism is effective, I simply do not like the ~~~+A+S+T+H+E+T+I+C+~~~
>>913360
>Okay. I know you're uncomfortable with the idea,
I'm not. It's simply that it's a really stupid idea.
>but it's a curriculum intended for students of magic and mysticism
Method of science, aim of religion. Exhausting all avenues of possibility is literally written into that. It is also most reasonable to start the search for answers where results are to be found.
>in a line of initiation of wch I am heir.
Which is entirely fair, as long as you're not claiming absolutes where there is a large margin for error. Which you are:
>It's not neuroscience. Claiming that it is demeans both, to my mind.
Well, as far as I can tell, we're simply operating on the same matter from two very different layers of abstraction.
I am very interested on your thoughts on the /x/ thread I posted, as it relates to this topic in a rather direct way:
>>>/x/17524147
>>913428
>The language is largely primordial and pure; the poverty is in our understanding.
In other words, language is a high level of abstraction from the real, and the way we learn language is oftentimes divorced from the empirical perception of what it describes, thus being taught without internal associations being created, further down the line becoming "devoid of understanding".
A good understanding of words allows certain mechanisms and associations to be triggered, and thus to achieve immense clarity and quality of thought, emotion, and being.
>>913472
Consciousness is predicated on the idea of "self".
>>913428
>the article on Ethyl Oxide and comments on the Star-Sponge only reinforce this feelpinion.
Source please?
>>913474
>Consciousness is predicated on the idea of "self".
I don't think Abhinavagupta or Buddha would disagree with this at all.
The disconnect I see from Trika and Buddhist Tantra is; where they respectively come from and what to do about them.
Really it'd be nice to go back to the sponsorship era when the Buddhists and Saivists were paid to sit in rooms and troll each other; I imagine some of those debates would help me clarify my position.
Despite being ten vols. Tantraloka isn't exactly the most concise, at least in the five chapters I've gone through, but thus far the two huge differences appear to be specific phenomenologies of perception and what implication this has on the reality of God(s/forms).
>>913500
Shit, i remembered it never mind
http://lib.oto-usa.org/crowley/essays/ethyl-oxide.html
>>913511
So basically... it's all speculation.
Eh.
>>913500
Toward the end:
http://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter82.html
and
http://lib.oto-usa.org/crowley/essays/ethyl-oxide.html
I mean, really we could also consider the other materials on drugs as well; The Herb Dangerous, and the lost manuscript on peyote.
>>913519
It's genuinely all we got, reflection and contemplation, until we move out of the basic neuromechanics of perception into a Science of Perception, and I've little hope for anything much stiffer than "Psychedelic Information Theory" in the next like ten to twenty years. But I could be surprised, my crystal ball is far from perfect.
>>913537
>It's genuinely all we got
...how far have you delved into the material I've been studying?
Cause that covers perception to an extreme extent, you know.
We have transcended speculation on these topics long, long, long ago.
>>913545
Any articles or texts from what I've sent and you'd said you've been going through that you care to highlight? Or is it all your own...speculation :^)
Srs tho, even at that point I'd still agree with Abhinavagupta's perspective on mechanics more than (most) Buddhist materials; are you not an I crashing into another (self-similar) I and making waves of influence? There can be no induction without inductee and inductor, even in solitary processes.
>>913428
>Only thing that really comes to mind is how often Uncle Ed references Tannhauser.
May have to suffer through that one again. It all struck me as vanity. Surely, there was a better text.
My kek was at the touch.of irony. I otherwise agree.
>I, personally, feel there's a component that even AC would have been interested in provided he had modern instrumentation.
Possibly so. When neurosci gets anyone to the other side, perhaps I'll reconsider.
I get the impression that few have a clear idea of the end goal. This ain't psychotherapy.
>>913474
>It's simply that it's a really stupid idea.
No, it isn't. It's certainly.smarter than a man with a new hammer thinking everything is a nail.
>Method of science, aim of religion.
Quaint Victorianism.
I will note that your method is to first deny the existance of the stated goal.
>Well, as far as I can tell, we're simply operating on the same matter from two very different layers of abstraction.
I submit you've never experienced the other side, else we wouldn't be having.this discussuon.
>>913593
>are you not an I crashing into another (self-similar) I and making waves of influence?
I wouldn't say so. "I" is only relevant insofar as self-awareness is concerned, which is why I use a very particular definition of consciousness.
For all other purposes, a robot can be substituted for me anytime, and it's just as good.
>There can be no induction without inductee and inductor, even in solitary processes.
Correct. However that doesn't imply they're self-aware in the slightest, or that they are referring to themselves at all. A computer doesn't have an "I" to refer to, which is why it lacks consciousness. Once it is able to automatically abstract the sum of it's parts into one concept, then we can talk about A.I.
>>913601
>It's certainly.smarter than a man with a new hammer thinking everything is a nail.
Which is hardly a fitting metaphor, not only because you don't even appear to understand what I am saying, but because you're refusing to acknowledge the self-evident.
>I will note that your method is to first deny the existance of the stated goal.
Which is what?
I'm not denying it. I'm only giving an alternate perspective, one that explains the phenomena described in a way that doesn't involve assumptions about anything supernatural.
Can spirits exist? Sure. Do we have *any* evidence to support that save for personal experience? Not at all. Can we induce an experience that is indistinguishable from anything you can name in a person, inflicting the same profound personal changes in being and understanding? Yes, we can.
I do admit that what you understand as the goal of religion might be significantly different to what I understand by that. Which is Truth.
>I submit you've never experienced the other side, else we wouldn't be having.this discussuon.
That might well be true. How can one know, however?
>>913647
>computer
reee
>Once it is able to automatically abstract the sum of it's parts into one concept, then we can talk about A.I.
Man, if fucking only. We can't even simulate flatworm neurology with current top of the line bleeding edge DARPA tech.
That's not a shitpost at you btw, that's a general lamentation about how utterly fucking incapable we are as humans inquiring into humanity.
>>913601
Which other side, specially?
>>913647
>Which is hardly a fitting metaphor
Fitting or not, that's how I see you. You're like a chaote explaining ceremonial work.
>Do we have *any* evidence to support that save for personal experience?
I'm trying to think.of evidence of anything that is not the result of someone's personal experience.
What we seem to have, re spirits, is a fairly consistent phenomenon across multiple cultures and traditions. Combined with personal experience, the epistemology is more sound than you seem to imagne.
>How can one know, however?
Some experiences are so overwhelming and transformative that doubt seems pointless.
>>913669
>Which other side, specially?
The woowoo side. It's probably impossible to describe what a magical world looks like from the inside.
>>913725
>Some experiences are so overwhelming and transformative that doubt seems pointless.
^^^
>the epistemology is more sound than you seem to imagne.
Hell I don't even like aspects of our common epistemology re: mysticism, but I'll take over most any other mode of making sense of shit.
Wait, is this academic or are you actually I casting spells and doing magic?
What
>>913725
>I'm trying to think of evidence of anything that is not the result of someone's personal experience.
How about... the temperature of the Sun? The speed of sound?
The photos we have of distant galaxies?
>What we seem to have, re spirits, is a fairly consistent phenomenon across multiple cultures and traditions.
All of which operate on basically the same wetware, in extremely similar contexts, with very consistent assumptions towards the phenomena.
Which supports my assertions quite far, in fact.
>Combined with personal experience, the epistemology is more sound than you seem to imagne.
What I see here is that you're mistaking the contextual assumptions that an operator of those systems holds, with the assumptions we should hold while researching and studying the actual mechanisms involved.
>Some experiences are so overwhelming and transformative that doubt seems pointless.
Which doesn't at all justify accepting the operating assumptions as "how it works" beyond the operating frame. It could work in any number of ways, and finding that out allows for quick and simple repeatability, thus making the whole process easier and faster.
>>913748
Ask an anthropologist if there's a difference between analysis of a ritual and participation therein.
One entails the other.
>>913759
>The photos we have of distant galaxies?
Aliens? Self-constructed robots?
I think this one went over your head.
>>913759
>All of which operate on basically the same wetware, in extremely similar contexts, with very consistent assumptions towards the phenomena.
No idea whare you're headed.
>What I see here is that you're mistaking the contextual assumptions that an operator of those systems holds, with the assumptions we should hold while researching and studying the actual mechanisms involved.
Of course. I'm interested in going, in doing. I have no need, in a magical context, to indulge in navel-gazing. You count your muscles. I've got a harvest to reap.
>Which doesn't at all justify accepting the operating assumptions as "how it works" beyond the operating frame.
Wouldn't just be be better to take the diamond bullet and find out for yourself? I'm guessing you will have the important questions answered and you will see how silly the rest are.
>>913762
This is true.
>>913759
>How about... the temperature of the Sun? The speed of sound?
Can you say that any of it objectively exists without the ultimately personal experience of observing it? The horizon doesn't exist without me sustaining it, temperature doesn't exist without me there to perceive it.
>>913807
>I think this one went over your head.
Possibly. It's troubling, since I have no idea what perspective you're speaking from.
>No idea whare you're headed.
Basically an alternative explanation of the phenomena. As far as things inside a person change, I'd be very hesitant to claim paranormal.
>Wouldn't just be be better to take the diamond bullet and find out for yourself?
That's the thing. I have been doing that for the last 6+ years, and shit still gave me no results that I could consider actually magical.
Sure, I can read cards, and it comes out accurate for the most part. That doesn't, however, answer my questions, as to what, why and how.
I scried a large chunk of the Aethyrs, and eventually just naturally gave up on that direction, as it gave me no results that I could in any way consider serious.
Where's the Truth, brah?
>>913835
Solipsism. Get. Out.
>>913835
>>913855
It's not quite solipsism; think back to the induction metaphor.
There is no observation without observer and observee. Our metrics are largely arbitrary. This, however, does not mean that the measurements are not of some thing of concrete reality.
>Where's the Truth, brah?
A humble suggestion to go back through it with a higher standard of replication and a head full of fresh mysticism/yoga? That's how my work on that angle went from pure delusion to something of remote merit. I'm still getting precious little, though, there's more work to be done
A more bold suggestion would be to develop a hypnotic routine meant to refine the qualities of practice you're interested in.
>>913855
>Solipsism. Get. Out.
Fuck off. Solipsism can only exist for an instant for then all is one again. I was merely pointing out the limits of perception and how the Cartesian was wrong and the foundation of science is more shaky than it would appear. All we can say is that a thing intersubjectively exists.
>>913905
>how the Cartesian was wrong
>tfw you'll never teach Descartes yoga personally so you can show him the phenomenal implications of both cogito and ego, and that there can indeed be one in the absence of the other.
>intersubjectively
The difference between intersubjectivity and interobjectivity is the difference between intersect and intercourse ;^)
>>913916
I love his little demon and how it is Mara or ego or however you want to look at it and all the rest of the meditations were built on it.
I also like how shaivism is a natural conclusion to solipsism.
>>913924
>I also like how shaivism is a natural conclusion to solipsism.
"I is the only thing that exists."
"W-wait...I is the only that that exists...?"
"Oh...OH...fug."
Makes you wonder how long it took the precursor traditions to break the wall from individualistic egoism to panegoism.
>>913889
>There is no observation without observer and observee.
Uh, yes, there is. A computer observes input, however that doesn't mean the computer has any sense of self in that.
>A humble suggestion to go back through it with a higher standard of replication and a head full of fresh mysticism/yoga?
What would you suggest?
>develop a hypnotic routine meant to refine the qualities of practice you're interested in.
I'm already on it, however with little time to implement. I'll have a good subject for this in a few days, I'll get to more regular work with her then.
I haven't seen you on here in forever. I'm looking to get into meditation, are there good beginning books in the library on the subject? And did you ever find anything that has to do with Sufi Islam?
>>913955
Nothing on the Sufis, it's a gap I wanna fill but I got meager knowledge on the subject outside of irrelevant basics.
RE: Meditation...just meditation alone? No yoga? I got three 'meh' tier texts in the Eastern folder, one of which just tells you to switch to proper yoga for a couple hundred pages.
>>913981
Well, I honestly don't know much about it. If you would say go straight to yoga I'm definitely open to that idea. I'm always interested in the Sufi stuff but I can definitely understand not being able to find much, but I'll be lurking if I see these threads. Or if I start yoga I'll be talking about it probably. Where did yoga practice start? For what purpose?
>>914002
Probably a synchretism of native Indic contemplation methods coupled with Aryan sorts of 'high religion' structures.
Different groups use it differently; a common theme is Liberation.
Yoga is usually what the West is referring to when it says "meditation". If you're sitting in the lotus and counting breath and doing specific contemplative practices it's yoga as opposed to simple mindfulness observation in "meditation".
There's tons of material. Start with Hathayoga and Shiva Samhita and then spiral out from there to whatever interests you.
>>913855
>Possibly. It's troubling, since I have no idea what perspective you're speaking from.
Objective reality is a theoretical construct based on empirical observations made by humans. We have science and reason to make credible interpretations of those observations, but there is always a human who observes.
>Basically an alternative explanation of the phenomena.
See Liber 333, cap 45.
I scried a large chunk of the Aethyrs, and eventually just naturally gave up on that direction, as it gave me no results that I could in any way consider serious
Honestly, I doubt you had the sort of practical instruction opening aethyrs requires. I'm not judging the effort you put into it, or your sincerety. I'm just surprised that it took you nowhere.
>>914186
It took me nowhere on my first run too. Recent experiments were much more effective. Hence my recommendation for better replication.
>>914186
>I doubt you had the sort of practical instruction opening aethyrs requires.
I had no instruction aside from what Dee and the G.D. had written down.
For the most part, I used simple rituals for simple means. You can find my visions here:
http://z.lvxnox.com/z/magick/records
>I'm just surprised that it took you nowhere.
Yeah. I honestly expected huge ideological or at least real-life breakthroughs. Which didn't really happen.
>>913933
Much like solipsism itself, all of 5 minutes. The meme of ego in that form probably went extinct with every fresh ego bashing another in the head with a rock until one of them learned better and memed it to the rest of them. In a sense it was an atavism, a return to nature. Ego isn't stupid, it quickly leanrs the best way to protect the host, often before the host itself does.
>>914277
Theoretically, the idea of "I am god and so can you" came from this instance. Where one has a thought to subjugate and another steals the fire and becomes God. With a rock. Flesh eating encouraged but optional.
>>914190
I'm going to emend. It got you both to this point. That's something.
>>914214
>Yeah. I honestly expected huge ideological or at least real-life breakthroughs. Which didn't really happen.
As you know, it expanded my world beyond anything I'd imagined, before it exploded.
In that sense, I think.you're quite correct. I trusted that the Demon Jones wasn't lying or crazy. That's one reason it worked better for me.
>>914324
Yeah. I don't think I'm capable of trusting that there's something there to such an extent, to be fair.
>>914324
Sorry, I'm not a crowleyite, what exactly is the aether? I feel like I know but I went East a long time ago and only just came back.
>>914342
I'm not either.
The intro here might help:
http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-vision-and-the-voice/
>>914374
Goddammit Crowley and dipsomancy do not mix. Or maybe they do. One way to find out.
>>913472
So it may be that there's a fundamental compatibility between Abhinavagupta and Buddha. The existence of Buddhist Tantras would suggest so.
But, I don't really feel compelled to try to find that compatibility. I'd rather say that the comparison you made is excessive.
Again, in other words, I see the early Buddhist method as careful observation of ordinary phenomena with extraordinary concentration and attention paid to particular characteristics and (ordinary) categories of experience. I would say this is thoroughly non-mystical.
If we look at just the surface description of early Buddhism and what you've described they couldn't be more different. Indeed, neo-Theravada Buddhists would cringe at any serious usage of the word Self.
>>914335
I still hate you but I'm wondering what's your background? What should I read to understand your perspective?
>>914190
Do you know of any good intro to Zoroastrianism books? And, since the guy mentioned it, Sufism?
>>913655
re: reee
Same. Pre-mature man-technology metaphors trigger me
>That's not a shitpost at you btw, that's a general lamentation about how utterly fucking incapable we are as humans inquiring into humanity.
What do you think about the far away possibility of AGI?
>>914556
>early Buddhism
Hence why I was asking about material contemporary to Vangisa, my early Buddhist history is srsly lacking.
>Do you know of any good intro to Zoroastrianism books? And, since the guy mentioned it, Sufism?
Plenty of Zoro in my folder, that plus like Gathas/Avesta/etc.
I got functionally nuffins on the Sufi mystics.
>>914561
http://www.hutter1.net/ai/pkcunai.htm
http://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0004001
>>914556
Sufi is in the name, so I was told by a Sufi. It is the whirlwind, the sandstorm that upends all things. It is total surrender. So it is in essence the rest of esoterica, just the esoteric aspect of an exoteric religion the name of which is surrender to to the nature of all things. Effortlessly surrender harder.
I could say more but like someone was saying up the thread, while I may have some people up the tree from there, the Sufis aren't my specific tribe best I can tell.
>>914556
>I'm wondering what's your background? What should I read to understand your perspective?
Over 13 years:
>guided meditations
>energy work/ astral stuff
>Christian mysticism (orthodox)
>Nihilism due to failure to achieve a certain healing
>Tarot (hardcore study)
>Ceremonial magic (G.D.)
>Thelema
>OTO (Minerval, was kicked out for asking too many questions)
>A.'.A.'. (3 grades so far, considering getting my shit together for 3=8 once I get my finances and life in general intact)
>Enochian (mostly Aires)
>Hypnosis & Hypnotherapy over the last 2 years, with a significant bias towards evidence-based practice and neurosci study
As far as the Western Tradition is concerned, I know my way around.
Eastern, not so much.
Just before I finished with "magic" as such, I had discovered (by "magical" means, the irony) Nubti, who then threw me on the 810 tangent of 93.
So in a twisted sense, I could still claim I'm doing magic, although I would consider that claim only metaphorically accurate.
>>914622
On which note, do you think I should go further into the Nubti direction? It seems like the best way to approach things in a balanced manner, and I'm really sick of not having a way of actually evaluating my practices beyond "just do it for a lifetime to have a proper data set".
>>914664
>Nubti
yaaaaas
>>914677
>77
brofam pls say more. Am confused and feel weird at the same time.
>>914683
You know how names are. Oak and elm and yew were just not right or eww. The other options were redtip, pinus virginiana and jesus tree and they just didn't feel right. I'm not necessarily an annual so that's out.
>>914622
I'm just taking at face value that the available Pali Canon translation and the Visuddhimagga/Vimuttimaga are representative. Trying to get to the bottom of what Buddha Actually Said is too problematic
There's reasons to be skeptical of modern traditions that try to represent themselves as traditional:
https://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/theravada-reinvents-meditation/
>http://www.hutter1.net/ai/pkcunai.htm
>http://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0004001
>2000
Uhuh. Where are the results? Also, you're not qualified to understand this so why are you linking it?
http://meaningness.com/metablog/ken-wilber-boomeritis-artificial-intelligence
Also I got PU on that one site. I'll have your invite tomorrow or midnight or w/e.
Accept that invite for that other site that I already sent to the gmail account you cuck. It expires in a day.
>>914644
u wot
>>914664
What reason do you have for supposing that neuroscience has enough understanding/evidence to support any view?
http://meaningness.com/perfection-salad
I'm pleased to have been able to respond to three different views with David Chapman articles
>>914708
>What reason do you have for supposing that neuroscience has enough understanding/evidence to support any view?
It's not about supporting a view. It's about finding what works and HOW it works. Neuroscience is a great correlate to compare my own practice with; sometimes it diverges, most of the time it doesn't.
It's still a very, very worthwhile field of study in any case.
>>914711
Physics and chemistry have enabled technology that we find useful. I consider this evidence of progress.
What evidence of progress do you have for neuroscience?
>>914718
>What evidence of progress do you have for neuroscience?
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140321-orgasms-at-the-push-of-a-button
>>914728
Kek.
I'm skeptical.
>Recent news reports about the device are based exclusively on a 13-year-old story in New Scientist magazine which recently appeared on web powerhouse Reddit, a user-curated repository of interesting things.
There's been a reproducible orgasm device for 15 years and it hasn't gotten mass production? Not believing it
>web powerhouse Reddit
kek
>>914708
>someone uploaded my Golden Equinox
ayyy was that you?
Also, no I'm nowhere near qualified to understand those links but people who are said I should pay attention because we're going back through that materiel and getting nifty results, there's some AI programs that are learnin' pretty good right now using the TL approximations:
(read description, too long for one post)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhQTWidQQ8U
Sweet send me the invite asap.
