If torture doesn't work why has it always been a thing?
Is that Pepe on the left?
>>898550
Entertainment.
Also torture works perfectly well for performing power's acts upon the body and making the body "legible" to the state.
isn't that pic from Amnesia: The Dark Descent?
>>898550
>If torture doesn't work
It does work.
>why has it always been a thing?
Spectacle. Killing someone is one thing, but having him tortured to death in front of a crowd really makes an impression.
>>898584
>tortured to death in front of a crowd really makes an impression.
but peine forte et dure was done privately
impression
get it?
impression
>>898558
And here I was going to sarcastically say something about reading Foucault and now there's no use for me.
>torture doesnt work
depends
if I threaten to tear your testicles off with a pair of hot pincers unless you give me your PIN number would you comply?
if I threaten to waterboard you unless you tell me where the bomb is hidden and you are an extremist who passionately believes in her cause would you comply?
if I threaten to flay you alive unless you tell me where your child is hiding so I can kill your child would you comply?
if I threaten to boil you alive unless you tell me the password to your email account would you comply?
saying torture does/doesnt work is hopelessly vague. sometimes it works, sometimes not. it is always disgusting and immoral though
>>898550
A torture victim will always confess to anything to stop the pain.
It has always been a thing because it's a good way to get someone to confess to ANYTHING.
Public torture also deters the witnesses from similar behaviour
>>898882
>it is always disgusting and immoral though
No it isn't
>muh hooman rights
>>898892
best case scenario you waterboard a terrorist to find out where he planted a nuke in new york
in general torture is evil
>>898917
No it isn't
>>898922
it causes suffering to sapient beings, often for dubious reasons, therefore it is generally evil
>>898934
No it isn't
>>898917
No point in arguing with edgy teenagers.
>>898922
Yes it is.
>>898942
Yes there is.
>>898934
nope
>>898934
>it causes suffering to sapient beings, often for dubious reasons, therefore it is generally evil
Hedonism is a personal choice to follow.
>>898550
It depends on what the torturer wants to get from their victim. And it's a pretty great deterrent. Also gave perfect option for those in power to find someone to drop a crime on.
Overall bretty good if you're in power and you're not trying get specific, unverifiable information.
>>898882
Can't tell if troll or immature moralistic autist
>>898550
Because acceptable medieval foreplay???
>>898955
Incredible debating skills. Only the finest arguments on /his/
>>898882
>>Extremist
>her cause
Anon pls I know you want to be politically correct but let's be realistic here
>>899019
>but let's be realistic here
There's more than just islamic extremism out there, fambam
>>898973
>>899010
:^)
>>898934
Yes it is generally evil, but i se no problem in using torture to get information out of radical teror groups if you can save lifes with that information,
as an made upp example, if i was given the option to torture an example, isis terorist to gain information from him, maybe about the location of their hq, combat lines, suport lines etc i wouldent see this as a moraly bad thing, mainly becuse i know what these men are doing, torture rape genocide and thru, this mans pain we can shut down a larger part of their operation and atleast for a time save the lifes of incoent i think it would be moraly wrong to leave him be, becuse then all of his friends can continue to rape murder and do genocide.
But i find it moraly wrong to torture pow*s from a regular army, example if Germany and French was in a war i would not torture a regular soilder becuse they would wage war using a code of ethnics and folloing the rules of war
>>898550
Torture works pretty well as long as you are strong enough to kill off any thought of rebellion against you before it has even fully formed.
>>898999
>And it's a pretty great deterrent.
Citation needed.
>>899087
this pic is hot
>>898882
While this sentiment is true to a degree, using torture as a means of extricating ridiculous claims of witchcraft and wizardry like the Witch trials Germany, France, and England participated in in the 16th - 18th centuries is largely ineffective because they will obviously admit to anything even if they hadn't done it if put on the rack for long enough
>torture generally does work
>you leave the dead bodies on a cross or something to scare aspiring criminals
People usually think torture exists to be functional, i.e., you commit torture in order to extract information from somebody. But this isn't really right. Torture exists and is committed for its own sake. Like works of art, torture is not solely, or at all, 'functional.' Instead it's an end in itself, the point of torture is to have tortured people. By inflicting violence you destroy people and their world and their language. You make a new reality for them. Pic related
>>898550
As has been said already, torture doesn't "work" as a means of extracting information, but that's not what torture is ever actually 'for'.
>>898550
people are stupid. that's most of why they do any thing.
would you believe they sometimes do torture without even pretending to have a reason?
Torture works fine if you want people to admit to things they didnt do.
In all seriousness torture does work in some cases. Its just that in most cases where we need it to work, it really doesent work. Torturing a criminal to admit a crime is useless since itll just say whatever you want it to say. Torturing a terrorist to give out his friends wont usually work since theyll just make crap up to end the torture temporarily. If you want the tortured to do something immideate it can be useful. But most of these are useless unless you want some propaganda.
>>898580
yes
>>898550
Because it works.
>>898550
Because torturing is fun
>>898550
Torture's primary purpose is not to extract information nor confession (a task at which it, yes, historically, performs poorly). It's primary purpose is, rather, to instill fear among a populous, while simultaneously galvanising the more extreme of your allies among your cause.
For a large swath of the human population, there's something very comforting in knowing that your leaders are causing "evil people" to suffer as much as possible. It strengthens the tribal bond. Studies have shown that reading of one's enemies being tortured actually releases prolactin and dopamine in the brains of a significant portion of the population.
It's not about the information the individual has, but about social engineering for the masses, more your own than that of the enemy's. Even when it's done in private, the knowledge that it's being done is enough for the desired effect (plus it can be rather cathartic for the individual soldier's doing the work). Thus it's less of a deterrent - and more of a motivator.
>>900262
more like a channel for all the unrest so that it targets anyone but you
sometimes it doesn't work though
>just like interrogate them lol dude torture doesnt work
If you're interrogating a terrorist and you want to know where he planted a bomb, what reason does he have to give you any answer at all if he is aware that you can't threaten or extract the answer out of him?
>>900684
Perhaps not directly relevant, but I used to work in criminal defense. And there, we had an enormous number of false confessions, sometimes to pretty heinous crimes, without the police doing anything more than leaving them in the tank for several hours and asking questions.
People talk without that much pushing, in my limited experience.
>>900684
You tell him straight
>I'm sorry sir but despite the valuable information you're holding necessary to preventing lots of death I cannot disregard your rights and so I have to ask you one more time; will you tell me where the bomb is or not?
>If you refuse to comply you will be dealt with by the full extent of the law. Make no mistake, you will be put to jail for your whole life. However since it is illegal for me to conceal information from you I must also inform you that our prisons are comfortable and homely with a friendly athmosphere for we believe in rehabilitation over some barbaric notion of 'punishment' ie revenge. Unfortunately currently only Playstation 2 is available in every cell, but we're pressing the government to modernizing the prison entertainment technology for it is inhuman to not provide everyone the necessary entertainment and activity needed for a healthy life. You cells nor your leisure activity rooms will have no surveillance for we do not believe in these ancient totalitarian measures. Cameras also are detrimental to developing the trust we wish between the prisone...er, sorry, slip of the tongue - I meant socially and culturally disprivileged people. You will also not have to worry about guards abuse because we have top of the line surveillance carefully monitoring their work, ensuring that your rights are not abused in any way.
>Will you now tell us where the bomb is?
>Please do not treat this as an interrogation. Please understand I am not asking this from a position of authority. I am wearing brightly colored civilian fashion imitating clothes free of any symbols of power such as emblems or insignia to further progress the great relationship we are about to develope.
>No? O-okay. I understand. S-sorry.
Give the government the right to torture one "enemy" group and soon they will bullshit their way into being able to torture everyone. Try to stop them? "Terrorist sympathizer, tell us what you know or suffer agony!" People that advocate torture are tragic fools
>>900262
>Studies have shown that reading of one's enemies being tortured actually releases prolactin and dopamine in the brains of a significant portion of the population.
Source?
>Even when it's done in private, the knowledge that it's being done is enough for the desired effect (plus it can be rather cathartic for the individual soldier's doing the work).
Source?
>>899160
Hey that's right!
Maybe genocide isn't such a bad idea!
>>898550
reaction to fear
>>901002
What?
>>898550
Torture works quite well to deter people from doing shit you don't like and to gain easily confirmed information. Why else do you think it would have been a thing for so long?
>>899160
What if you were wrong and this guy isn't a member of isis?
Are you gonna torture him to death for informations he doesn't have?
>>898550
>torture doesn't work
Well, it depends on what you mean, it is an inefficient and inaccurate method of getting information in modern day, I would SUSPECT the same would be true for the rest of history, but I don't know, and that is only one aspect of torture.
Another is fear. Vlad the Impaler, the Aztecs, the Reign of Terror.
I guess you could say experimentation is another reason to have torture. Vivisection, Nazi scientists, etc.
>>900746
Because the people you're dealing with are random assholes, not hardened warriors. Special forces operatives go through special training where they are beaten and mistreated. They are supposed to be able to stand up to interrogation and possibly even torture. It is no secret that American trained SF operatives in Iraq and other nations have trained terrorists. There's little reason to believe that a hardened fighter who is willing to die right then and there for his cause will break because someone did the good cop bad cop routine and offered him a plea deal.
Obviously not every terrorist is an elite guy trained by Pakistani ISI members, but it's likely that that they are more dedicated than the average crook.
I don't support torturing people whenever it's convenient. It's certainly an incredibly fucked up thing to do, but that's just how it is. If you have some die hard radical who probably has information that you need, then it would be logical to start yanking his fingernails out if all other methods failed.
>>903389
I find it morally reprehensible to torture people on the basis that they MAY have information we need. I think humanity is better than that.
>is this an unpopular pinion on /his/?
>>903395
>I find it morally reprehensible
Morality isn't the issue here. We're talking about whether it's practical or not.
>I think humanity is better than that
Guys who kick doors down and black bag people for a living aren't exactly the most gentle and caring folk on the planet.
>>903404
Ok, let's derail then and talk about the morality of torture.
>Guys who kick doors down and black bag people for a living aren't exactly the most gentle and caring folk on the planet.
So?
>>902612
I ocf want soild proof first but im still willing to torture wrong guy rather then miss the right guy and not be able to stop a larger part of a radical teror groups organisation, but i still think that solid proof is needed before you torture somone, but take isis for example. they arent afraid to show who they belong to. instagram photos youtube clip braging online fb, etc and not to mention pics they often have on thier phones, ex im sweden a isis terorist had photos on him and his friends in isis ataire and wilding a isis flag.
>>898550
>torture doesn't work
That's kind of a half baked statement. There are certain factors to take into account.
First of all, when they say that what they mean is torturing someone as a means of obtaining information isn't all that effective.
Torture as a a means of instilling fear, and setting example works like a charm.
>Credible threat of torture is powerful enough to break vast majority people in the first place. So it's not torture that's working here it's fear.
>Those who aren't deterred by threats can be divided into two groups. Those who know what's coming, and those who are in over their heads.
>Those who are in over their heads will break as soon as initial pain is inflicted (and that's not really torture now is it), or when they get more than they bargained for. This is the only case where torture actually does its job.
>Someone who knew what they were in for and weren't scared by threats of torture, won't break no matter what you do to them. They have too much at stake to give it up. For them possible damage done by giving out the information you seek outweighs anything you're willing to inflict on them, so your endeavor is failed from the beginning.
![fz_dvdb_060[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/oubZug5.jpg "fz_dvdb_060[1].jpg")
>>903446
pretty much this.
torture can be more effective before being put in pratice but at sometimes, if the torturer punishes excessively the victim to things might happen: the victim can go pass his breaking point to the "i don't give a fuck anymore" point and at this point torture gets ineffective or the victim will just say everything you want to hear, whether it's true or not.
so from my little understanding, the threat of torture or psycological torture can work better than physical torture. but i'm obviously talking about torture as a method to extract information and not just something you do for fun or just to punish anyone...
>>898934
meaning, it's ok to torture animals?
>>898882
I'd rather have u flay me alive before you kill my kid, but thats just me
For you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwOYOQT12f4
>>898550
People like inflicting pain on people they hate
I mean technically speaking if you abide by talion (Mesopotamian/Judaic law) you would be against torture because people don't go around torturing other people, at least not often.
Probably, in part, because it was outlawed as a means to punishment.
So yeah.
>>903883
thats the point, sometimes it works, sometimes not.
>>898550
>why has it always been a thing?
Torture has not always been a thing. I mean openly inflicting pain to people is strictly speaking not torture, it would be more precise to speak of torment. If you link the inflicting to pain to asking question you got another/new phenomenon: Torture. It is linked to modernity, part of the will to knowledge and assumes that through violence you can create another in some way truer or better human being. Focault got that right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline_and_Punish
See also: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i8524.pdf
This is also why torture is not primarily used to get information and even if you get information you have no way of confirming it and if you have a way, you wouldn't really need to torture in the most cases. Secret agencies knew that and kept torturing nevertheless (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Secrets-British-Intelligence-Twilight/dp/0007457960) exactly because torture fulfills the above mention functions.
Also the techniques uses are important. There is cultural component to it. For example the French tortured in Algeria using alcohol gas (to somewhat copy the Nazis and to disgrace the muslims) and electricity even though it was highly impracticable (to show the technical superiority).
Rather strange that I am the first person ITT to mention any of this.
>>898550
Pro-tip: the majority of the most cruel executions and torture methods were likely never applied, or only at incredibly rare occasions (e.g. for treason).
If you see something like that depicted it's likely from the mythical suffering of a Christian saint rather than something that was done to a historical person.
>If torture doesn't work why has it always been a thing?
Because immediately you'd think that it does work: after all, you're convinced that the guy you're trying to torture is guilty and that he's hiding something - otherwise you wouldn't even get the idea to torture him. The point is that often enough the guy doesn't know what you're trying to know, so threatening to torture him will only make him tell you what he belies you want to know, which in case you're trying to find out some actual information could lead you in the completely wrong direction and waste everyone's time.
>>907082
interesting. source for torture methods in mythical martyr stories?
>>907110
>source for torture methods in mythical martyr stories?
How about this one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thyrsus
The OP picture also reminds me of this one. Not to mention how monstrous the henchmen are depicted, which leads me to believe that what we see in OP is factually a depiction of the martyrdom of a saint rather than a serious depiction of someone being executed or tortured.
>>899846
>autism
Yes, I'd certainly love to speak out against the Inquisition when doing so gets me broken over the wheel
>>901087
>Even the spanish inquisiton only used torture as an absolute last resort. And only caning.
?
bunpm
>>907185
Or maybe because the OP picture is from a video game.
>>900819
Are there any "free" countries in the world where the media posts pictures and names of people that do not vote on what is prefered except Sweden?
I remember Sweden posting pictures with names and occupation in their biggest tabloid magazine on normal people voting for the right-wing party.
>>901539
This.
>>900166
t. cenobite
>>898882
pretty much every expert agrees the best bet is to just threaten torture and play good cop bad cop
>>898558
Reminder that Foucault is an intellectually bankrupt author.
>>898550
"Justice"
>>909650
yes but thats becuse sweden is cucked and castraded by the left and thier sjw and their need to put political corectnes before thier own good and country, ex sweden let every imigrant tjey can enter and stay, and the ppl working with the imigrants get bonuses for letting them get asylum etc
>>898550
Torture does work
>>899160
are you drunk, friend?
>>912627
oyu can tell?????!!!!!!!!!!
>>903529
I know people who believe this with religious motivations. Shit's fucked up.
>>898550
It doesn't hurt to try.
>>912691
>torture
>It doesn't hurt
what
>>912701
yes it dosent hurt to try torture if the man you interogating aint talkings, so it wont hurty YOU to cut his toes off
>>898550
It works. You have someone you want to see dead, but some stupid law demands that he confesses. Then you torture him and can kill him with a pure conscience.
>>899087
This is kind of hot
>>907185
>that pic
>"Y THO"
It does work, you just corroborate the information like every other approach. The detainee can lie no matter what you do, or know nothing no matter how you approach. I wouldn't start with it right away, as it's not necessary.
>>914748
The problem with the whole discussion is that one side of the argument pretends that torture is
just grabbing a guy of the street at random and hurting him.
>>915282
Well... If torture is effectively the same as any other approach then what is even a point? Just ask politely or add some threats and see what answer you can got.
>>898550
>ctrl+F "Sadism"
> okay.
> "Schadenfreude"
> Wtf.
Surprised these are not answers to OP's post.
>>915297
Where did i say that?
There is a monumental difference between picking a guy off the street and hooking him up to car batteries and grabbing a specific guy off the street and hooking him up to car batteries while professionals interrogate him and check with other sources.
>>910807
actually that's bullshit. experts say the good cop, bad cop routine isn't effective.
what works is the good cop, good cop routine.
>>915333
Read the thread hell even the OP you smartass
>>898882
False information is worse than no information
When you're using torture as an interrogation method, the person will likely say anything to make the pain stop.
Basically it's only really a good idea if you have no other options and you know the person is guilty (ticking bomb scenario, ect.)
>>898550
>If torture doesn't work why has it always been a thing?
Define "work".
For getting to the truth, no. For scaring people, sometimes, depending. For getting sadistic pleasure or exacting vengeance, sure.
