Is tiananmen square the reason china is still a shit-tier country today?
It's a shit-tier country because there's lots of people and no motivation. If China had some sort of Pearl Harbor type incident happen to them, then everyone else in the world would likely be shitting several pairs of pants at them.
No.
It's because they lie about EVERY fucking statistic (as if 110 average iq)
It's because they monitor their citizens, even when they're on holiday in Australia.
It's because they are the worst case of aging population the world has
It's because the command economy is a really, really bad idea
It's because their people are culturally passionless and lack any real creativity
It's because throughout all this, they still have an insufferable feeling of superiority that every Australian is all too familiar with.
In 5 years that large working population that's causing that "miraculous" 7% annual growth will retire and either we get to watch China seriously abuse their elderly or collapse as they fail to look after this massive elderly population.
Inb4 moottwo bans me for talking about future events, as if history really stopped 25 years ago, cunt we're living in it now and China's just as interesting as the feudal relationships of Europe.
>>88952
i doubt chinese people care about eachother enough to do that
I just wonder what a Democratic China would be like.
China is one of the most successful nations on the planet. It's too big to judge as whole. You can make fun of them for seeing videos of people walking past dead kids in the street and guzzling gutter oil, but there are a billion people there. I don't think you realize how wealthy they are. China is literally buying other countries. They own huge chunks of Vancouver, Australia, Detroit, etc. Their products are getting good, and they are moving into the global market. Even Ashton Kutcher works for the Chinese.
>>88866
>>88952
China's hardly a shit tier country they've achieved massive growth in just a few decades in an attempt to modernize and catch up to everyone, their government while corrupt at times like any new gov which has to look out for billion+ people is well organized and usually has their head on straight. they're working on it, much better then India or Africas doing for themselves.
>>88966
hong kong but bigger
So how long till plague hits China from all the pollution and densely compact people?
I'm torn. I understand that the Chinese have made themselves from nothing since the 90s, but I also feel as though they might not have to much time left for them with what they are now. Say for instance, escalation occurs in the SCS or they decide to flex their mussels, we could see a second cold war (Something I won't mind.) If they do either they risk a shit of trade from China to various countries in the region like Vietnam, or the Philippines. This paired with rising African countries adopting an industrialist stance then you could see china's power fade very, very, fast. So I'll instead say that they are powerful now, but don't be surprised in 10-20 years from now they loose that throne to various developing nations.
>>89053
China spends does a shitload of foreign aid in africa, presumably because they will make gr8 trading partners soon
>>89053
They didn't make themselves from nothing.
Until they decided to become isolationist, they were global trade, as in they imported almost nothing and exported everything, that's a pretty good recipe for success. China has always been an economic superpower... Until the 15th century.
You know silk roads shit.
>>88952
It's more like the hive mind mentality they have and not only them, but other asians countries.
People obey instead of oppose, of revolt their own government; People do what the government say, and the innovation is stuck by those same hands.
Ironically this is the type of people some governments in the west would dream to have.
>>89163
They probably obey because if they don't the tanks will roll in.
>>88966
Taiwan
>>88866
Tiananmen was a symptom, not a cause. China issues stem from the country getting fucked over in WW2 followed by the Maoist era which combined incredibly poor economic mismanagement and the devastation of the cultural revolution.
The only thing Tiananmen has, however, had a big impact on educational policy in China which has contributed greatly to rising nationalism among the post-Tiananmen generations.
>>89089
Well then, I guess that's where I'll be deployed to next if there's now proxy wars south of the Sahara. Damn.
>The Rhodes died for this...
>>89099
I meant modern day China, not way back then china. Back in the 80s wha I aoild have seen was just another commie shit hole that no one had hope for. Now, well, now look at them.
>>88966
Same shit slightly less corruption.
>>88866
No.
The problems mainly stem from government policies.
Do you want free speech? STFU if you're in China.
Pollution? Victorian style industrialisation and the capitalist are heavily backed by the government.
Poverty? Wages and better services are concentrated in the cities.
>>89163
If you revolt, you get shot or put in jail.
Better to accept the status quo.
It's amazing how much Tienanmen has factored in the politics of China even to this days.
Basically, after Tienanmen the Communist party had to reach a new 'contract' with the people: allow us to stay in power, and we'll keep growth going and keep raising the standard of living for most people.
Jiang Zemin, basically a pretty mid tier Communist without revolutionary credentials was put into power as a compromise candidate after Tienanmen.
Jiang was conservative (read: Maoist) enough to support to massacre, but progressive enough to continue Deng Xiaoping's economic and developmentalist policies.
Deng, after the massacre, had to take a step back. He couldn't be in complete control, but he was still the guy basically pulling the strings.
After he died in 1996, Jiang and his faction were on their own. This is around the time they started cracking down on Falun Gong.
The main reason for this crackdown was to provide a pretext to consolidate power for Jiang's faction. However, the reason they put to the Party was that Falun Gong threatened the Party's legitimacy and power, in effect arguing that Tienanmen 2.0 would happen if they didn't crackdown pre-emptively.
They got their way, and massively expanded internal security forces, which concentrated power into Jiang's faction. However, since Hu Jintao, and especially Xi Jinping took over, his faction's power has gradually chipped away under the guise of anti-corruption charges.
In any case, Tienanmen has been the pivotal factor to modern Chinese politics.
>>89941
The social contract probably always existed. One of the appeals of old Commie governments was that they aimed to establish a more equal economy with re-distributed income. Everyone ends up happier as they become wealthier and happier then they were before as peasants/workers.
Falun Gong- The whole affair was pretty embarassing. Initially the FLG were a supported cult/religion until they buck the trend and try to go independent. Some atheist criticised the FLG and the FLG responded with a large protest. From there they just become a quick and easy target. You can't have such active organisers.
As for Tiananmen being a 'pivotal factor,' I highly doubt it since as you say much of their legitimacy does depend on the economic social contract. It's not discussed anymore but in the long run it's just another awful massacre committed (there's been a lot) by the CCP.
It's probably more significant as a 'what if' for the West. Supposedly, had the students succeeded China would be a democracy and we would all be happier.
Do westerners really think Tienanmen was a pro-democratic revolution? lol
It was mainly the University party youth and the Maoist hardliners that revolted then.
>>90069
Westerners mostly know shit about China's history and politics.
All they know is what the western media tells them and that is "muh Tiananmen, muh human rights! muh falu gong! muh democracy!" and so on.
>>90061
>As for Tiananmen being a 'pivotal factor,'
By that I mean it's what the Party are fixated on avoiding a repetition of.
Most likely, they saw this as likely to eventuate from breaking the economic social contract, but in playing the long game for control of the Party, Jiang's faction was able somehow to convince them that Falun Gong posed some sort of a threat.
Of course, the real reason they did this was to justify members of the faction presiding over new security agencies with immense executive power, to consolidate power and exercise more control over the party.
However, the theory they likely advanced was the Falun Gong could be a threat to Chinese unity in the same way religious movements in the past had been, like the Taiping Rebellion.
So, the massacre of itself isn't pivotal, but the effect that it had Chinese politics (well, Communist Party internal politics) can still be felt today.
>>90069
Watch the fucking news mate and read history textbooks.
Most think (including the Chinese exiles and Hong Kong Tiananmen weepers) believe they were not only protesting against corruption but for political reform.
>>88960
Is China's economy really still a 'command economy'?
They've let off a lot of slack since the Maoist era.
>>90159
>they likely advanced
>Taiping
Might want to check that up.
Like a lot of Nationalists, the Communists re-interpreted some historical events and figures to suit their vision. To the Communists at least under Mao, the Taiping were a proto-Communist movement. This was mainly due to their socio-economic management when they occupied Nanjing. Several families were group together into communal groups with shared resources.
>>88866
China will never truly be great. They're just surrounded by all these nations who have reasons to be pissed at them AND have actual economic power.
China's basically waiting to get keked:
>increasing internal dissent from slowing economic growth
>a population that's aging before they even become rich
>a ruling party that is corrupt on a scale unseen before
>independence movements in two frontier regions
>cultural and social trauma leftover from the great leap forward and cultural revolution
>rapidly rising neighbors who have axes to grind
>pollution and environmental degradation on an absolutely insane scale
Tiananmen was just a manifestation of China being a shit-tier nation.
>>90176
>the fucking news
Nice source you got there. You might as well recomend the People's Daily.
Leaving aside the question of whether China is 'shit-tier', can we at least agree that in terms of scale and endurance, the Chinese Communist Party are the most successful political organisation in modern history?
>>89053
The disputes been going on for decades (since the 70s).
I remember reading the Chinese captured the Paracels towards the end of the Cold War.
Expect more of the same (naval patrols, exercises, flag planting, the occasional riot, military buildup) with nothing actually happening. I'd sit back and just watch the chest thumping because for all their chest thumping they aren't fatalistic enough to actually start a war.
>>89867
India's always been a fragmented shithole.
China's been nice and historically rich in the past. And if they never had the commies in first place who literally destroyed and burned down 90 percent of Old China's history and traditions, then maybe they would have more of a culture to preserve now.
>>90245
Where's that from?
>>90231
Out of all it's neighbours, maybe Russia, India, South Korea and Japan have major economic power.
As for tensions boiling over. The CCP has been in control for decades and authoritarian regimes have a habit of staying in power. I won't be counting their days over soon unless you want to be optimistic.
>>88966
Singapore tier economy by GDP per square km with looser laws and less corruption.
China would be a legitimate superpower by now, assuming the Chinese civil war that empowered the chicoms either never too place (and westernization was allowed to occur) or ended decisively in the Republicans favor, while they purge their ranks of fascists or whatever. Basically wishful thinking.
If warlords were allowed to continue to run rampant, China probably would be balkanized but that might be healthy for rhe region, and China might become a general region instead like Europe where multiple small countries have a series of treaties with eachother and their neighbors.
>>90277
They made the right decision to adopt the reforms in the 70s otherwise China could be looking much worse. I don't know if they are the most successful.
It counts for something that they managed to keep the PRC alive at a time when the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc collapses into oblivion.
>>90343
Why is everyone optimistically that if China adopted 'democracy' it would magically turn into Singapore/Taiwan/Hong Kong.
Yes, China could have avoided all the shit that came with Mao but keep in mind that Singapore/Taiwan/Hong Kong are in the millions while China is a country of a billion.
As for the Warlords, it would have eventually ended in a United China. They were jockeying for political control after Yuan died not secession.
>>90278
So a second cold war focused in the far east, instead of the regular east, like I said.
>>90418
>Why is everyone optimistically that if China adopted 'democracy' it would magically turn into Singapore/Taiwan/Hong Kong.
Because we know nothing about economics or politics.
>>90335
>Out of all it's neighbours, maybe Russia, India, South Korea and Japan have major economic power.
Exactly, they can't be a superpower because they don't have a bunch of smaller, irrelevant countries to bully like America. They can't Monroe Doctrine their immediate neighborhood. The ones they are bullying will probably be forces to be reckoned with in a decade or two, while they stagnate.
>The CCP has been in control for decades
Much of their legitimacy has been based on economic wealth generation, and it looks like that's slowing down. Add that to an increasingly educated middle class that is aware and pissed at their country's crappiness...China is a social volcano.
I'm not saying the CCP will collapse, but that if it does happen, China will come out badly bruised, at the very least.
>>90277
>the most successful political organisation in modern history?
I don't know if the most successful (how would we measure and comare success anyway?) but it's been very successful, yes.
>>88960
This. Notice how every piece of technology in China is a knockoff of a more popular and successful western design? There's no reason to be innovative when you can steal tried and true designs.
Also, moottwo is Japanese, not Chinese. He might make you a mod for talking shit about China.
>>90462
>at their country's crappiness
How crappy is it really? I'm pretty sure my country is worse but it's still not bad enough to justify a revolution or anything like it.
>>90462
>Immediate Neighbourhood
They already exercise huge economic and military power in their region. Why else do you think Nam and Phillippines want a US counter-balance. The main problem is that they haven't yet turnec economic power into political, military and soft power. I'm not too concerned as to whether China will become the new Superpower soon as at the moment only USA seems willing to play that role.
As for forces to be reckoned with. Maybe not (if the Philippines) but even if China stagnates they'll still have the current large navy and research programs to build on.
>Middle Class
You wouldn't happen to believe in Modernisation Theory do you? Yes they are pissed off but the CCP has found ways of placating or outright stopping protests before
>badly bruised
China will step up again.
They already survived several government collapses including the Nationalists fleeing to Taiwan.
>>90444
Yup.
And if we did, all historians would be billionaire presidents instead of slightly autistic neets talking and arguing about obscure and irrelevant historical details.
>>90418
Because the USA would occupy and develop it like another korea or japan in order to push the soviet influence out and make trillions in profits 'industrializing' Democratic China.
>>88866
No, that was merely a sympton of unsolved problems. The reason why everything regarding modrn-day China seem so backward and absurd is much more complex, and should be traced back to the fall of the Quing dinasty, the failed experiment of the early republic, and above all, the political, economical and social (cultural) reforms of Mao.
To cut a long story short, under Mao's rule the chinese national identity had to be created from scratches, and it had to be inclusive of the communist ideals (Which, of course, had absolutely nothing to do with Chinese history), and such an act included a complete segregation of the people from their history and traditional morals derived from Confucianism.
Therefore, China had to look towards western Intelligentsia to find an idealistic foundation, while also completely disregarding their own (which later lead to the horrors of the 100 flower and the traumatic "cultural revolution"), and of course that created a huge deal of alienation. And on top of that, Mao's attempts at industrialization were an absolute disaster, the great leap forward is easily one of the most catastrophic political actions in human history, yet the idea behind those actions (something along the lines of "With determination and sacrifice, anything is possible") became the lynchpin of chinese industrial philosoby
>>90646
1. The US never wanted to 'occupy' China especially when you are talking about a country roughly the size of the USA.
2. No doubt it would have developed into a much richer country but the GDP per capita is not likely to turn out the same as Korea or Japan since those two have smaller populations.
Been there and lived there for about a year, it's pretty bad, at least where I was in.
You can't drink the tap anywhere in the country. Food safety is actually so much of a concern that families with means buy imported food all the time. Literally the worst toilets I've seen in the world, and I'm from a third-world country. At least the poor people in my country have recognized the wonders of the sitting toilet! The whole year I was there, I only recall 30 days of actually being able to see the sun clearly.
I taught as an English teacher, so I have remarks on that too. People with engineering degrees probably have less technical skill than a mechanic in the west. Critical thinking skills and abstract reasoning leave much to be desired.
I stayed in a second or third-tier city though (Shijiazhuang), and it is really way better in the first-tier cities (i.e. the cities you can name), but the disparity is really huge, especially the gulf between cities and rural areas.
>>90718
>At least the poor people in my country have recognized the wonders of the sitting toilet
Squating toilets are used troughout asia, yes even in the rich countries.
>>90718
Shijiazhuang is supposedly one of the most polluted cities in China because it sits in the Hebei Industrial Belt.
I heard Xiamen, Sanya and Hainan were not that bad because they are tourist-y areas.
Although at one point, the Pearl River Delta (major Southern industrial belt supposedly the Detroit of China complete with negros) sent a smog cloud to Hainan.
I would still like to visit SJZ though just to see the town that developed from nothing but a rail station
>>90718
Those are problems but I don't think they are so bad compared to extreme poverty, crime or unemployment. I live in a 3th world country as well and I really don't think they're worst off than us.
>>89879
Not too mention the massive wealth disparity between coastal and mainland china always causing revolts and contempt, Its like a life cycle.
>>89879
>If you revolt, you get shot or put in jail.
Isn't that true everywhere? Revolting is not the same than protesting. But I've seen chinese people protesting in China before and no one was shot yes "pacified" with sticks, rubber bullets and tear gas. But that's normal even in the west.
>>90747
Yeah, I'm aware of that, but the squat toilets in China are new lows. I honestly thought holes in the ground would be more hygienic.
We're talking bathrooms that look like this pic.
They are actually blacklisted by the World Toilet Organization (WTO, yes this is a thing).
>>90784
For all of it's problem, I like this current China.
It's better then the failing Qing Empire, the Republic of China/Civil War Era, the invaded China or the FUCKRETARDED Maoist China.
Finally, China is at least out of it's doldrums and getting wealthier and stronger.
Sure the environment's a problem but I'd choose the Industrial Revolution over the Great Leap Forward.
>>88960
This, they are not a high trust society
>>89867
Not really. The problem with India is that they're a relatively new state that has to manage a lot of different religions, cultures, languages, and ethnicities that don't like being under each other. Indians haven't lived unified under home rule since Ashoka in 250 BC.
China is more ore less culturally homogeneous, barring Tibet and some other areas to the west, and they've existed in a unified state for millienna.
>>90823
>people actually use public toilets
I don't understand this.
>>90784
Bit OT, but at least in my country, we're poor but happy.
Really, everything felt dreary there, and a lot of the people weren't really hospitable either. I don't even have the privileges of being a white person in China because as an Asian, I didn't look foreign.
It's different when you take into account how society works there, which is why, when I thought about it, it's pretty bad.
>>90797
Central China isn't doing too bad. Sichuan has it's industry agriculture and WMD (Weapons of Mouth Destruction)
HOW THE FUCK DO YOU NORTHERN CHINESE EAT THIS SHIT?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKdkzFogNmg
I'd be more concerned about Tibet/Qinghai, two of the poorer regions in China.
>>90860
Actually, even the bathrooms in the university I worked in could look this messy on a particularly bad day. As for the toilets, a lot of the bathrooms even in that university didn't have urinals, so you'd have to take a piss in those nasty-looking things.
As much as possible, I used the sitting toilet in my room at the university hotel.
>>90343
Wow I never thought about this. China needs to be balkinized.
Seriously hope we have WW3 in my life just so US and China can fight and China can lose horribly. China needs a MacArthur to go in and make anime real like he did with Japan. They also need to stop being so shitty to the Dalai Lama and people who want to use the internet.
>>88960
Also, They are running out of water snow and pretty much ruining their ecosystem. They have to host the Olympics the WINTER Olympics and they have NO SNOW.
>>88866
>implying China's shit
Have you ever actually been there? I went to Hong Kong, Shanghai, and Beijing last month and, desu, the worst of all was Hong Kong
Shanghai is actually better than cities like London and New York
I know that the inner parts of the country are bad, but it's not like the country isn't doing pretty well
>>88966
A completely fragmented country of Warlords
>>88866
Shit-tier country in what metrics? Human rights?
>implying that matters
>>91083
Zhangjiakou area has some snow.
Who knows why they did not host it in the Northeast which practically border Siberia.
As for the ecosystem, they are making attempts to fix it. Coal usage is down.
>>91012
They have balkanised but what's fascinating is that China always finds a way to come back as one, strong nation.
>>91248
I think that has something to do with the mandate of heaven.
>>90860
Maybe if you live in a country without public standards. Most Western countries have decent public toilets because enough people have the courtesy to clean up after themselves. In China, the general thought is "Why should I have to clean up a bathroom that isn't mine?"
>>91172
>human rights doesn't matter
The Renaissance would like to have a word with you.
>>91248
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPRIVmTCggE
This is where the Chinese Winter Olympics SHOULD have been held.
Is it a fair comparison to liken current China to something like industrial age Britain? Lack of concern over the environment for short-term gains, workers having shit tier wages and rights, and basic cutthroat capitalistic shenanigans.
>>91462
Pretty much and they're getting stronger as well.
>>91462
Never thought about it that ay.
>>91321
>human rights doesn't matter
Except for propaganda it doens't really matter. Wealth is what really matters and what makes one political system fall down or grow.
>>92717
Now you're just moving the goalposts. The original post was about whether human rights matters when determining whether a country is shit, not about what makes a political system stable.
The CCP is relatively shit, but they've pulled hundreds of millions of peasants into the middle class. It's one of the most remarkable achievements of our time and it's still going on.
I guess historians aren't that surprised that China can do well when it gets its shit together, but just 20 years old my mom was telling me to finish my food because kids were starving in India and China. That we don't say that anymore is a testament to the breakneck speed of development China/India are going through, especially China. India is just hopeless in some ways.
>>93116
One of the problems with such rapid development is that the culture hasn't caught up. You can take a peasant and put him in brand name clothes, but they're still going to take rolls of toilet paper from pubic restrooms.
>>90277
Too bad it has only been sucessful in its longevity. the only thing it can to is assure its own safety as if they were the only thing that mattered.
(which might actually not be that far from some of the mentality they managed to force onto the population by enforcing the idea that the PArty = the Country. Might be interesting to see how this idea will cope with all the young chinese sent abroad to study and get some different ideas and conceptions, as well as the rise of the middle class)
>>90718
That sounds eerily like the tales my wife tells me from Wuhan, her hometown. Never drank tap water in her life.
Most of the Chinese Couchsurfers I received were amazed at seeing public sources of drinkable water (I had to explain that by default, if you don't see a sign preventing you from doing it, public water is drinkable, here).
As for pollution, I remember last year we had a pollution alert here in the Alps, were speed on highways was reduced and people with asthma were asked to stay indoors.
So I looked online at the amount of air pollution that was going on. And as I was chatting with a friend in Hangzhou at the time, I looked _that_ up, out of curiosity.
She was telling me how it was a fairly standard, nice summer day for her.
The pollution levels there were about ten times worse than us with our pollution alert.
Forget about all the political bullshit, I can't even fathom how I'm supposed to breathe when I go there next year!
50 cent army pls go
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
China is shitty human rights abusers, they're a ridiculous medley of paranoid old men that aren't fit to run a train station much less a nation.
