Lets discuss this, since its most important thing about history imo.
To which extent are people made to do things they are doing by their environment and from which point the choice is up to them?
First of all, there is the moral look. I know most of you consider this stupid, but for me its kind of important. I mean you got Lincoln and Hitler as good/bad guy in history, but if Lincoln was born in traditionalist Germany circa 1920 and Hitler in multicultural New York prior to civil war, they could as well switch places and we would be worshipping Hitler and demonizing Lincoln.
This is actual as hell, because whole migration crisis is caused by people who don't know if we should kill ISIS or help them "recover". (pic related)
Second of all, there is the admiration itself. Both Hitler and Lincoln were just catalysts, they just triggered a long-term process. It wasn't Lincoln who wanted to free the slaves, it was whole northern USA. It wasn't thanks to him that it happened, it was thanks to change in perception of mankind, thanks to a process that took decades, even centuries. (Never really read into it so i'm just guessing but you get the point) Why celebrate Lincoln then? Why not just admire the process and learn from it, instead of repeating Lincoln's quotes like he was demi-god?
Anyway just general determinism discussion.
>>1059974
isnt pic related hamas?
hamas are bro-tier at this point, enemy of my enemy etc
any way, all choices are themselves conditioned and contingent, you could almost say no one realy ever does anything, all things, actions, behaviors, basicaly just happen, and this could be logicaly and empiricaly prooven, but at the same time it would be a rather screwed up way of regarding human life in practical terms, especialy in terms of relations to others and things like personal responsability
in a sense, even if we are simultaneously avare determinism is a true aspect of human reality, so is free conscious agency
its almost like were getting it wrong in that they do not negate each other, but somehow coexist, perhaps even pressupose each other
this problem is kind of one of the basic pillars of most mystic and religious traditions
just dont realy see what its got to do with history, or the immigration crisis, or the war in syria, i mean it equaly has everithing to do with the superbowl and frying chicken, and can realy be turned whichever way, set conditions get behavior isnt realy a specific enough context
think what youre getting at is the humanism informed stance taken by liberals today acording to which humans, ''other'' humas especialy, are fundamentaly to be considered benign and unproblematic untill prooven othervise, instead of as basicaly compeeting, potentialy dangerous and seriously problematic organisms that we have to share the world with - which is basicaly a objective truth applicable to every single human on the planet, you and me included - and that therefore it would be wise to be wary of humas, especialy ''others''
and the reason there is no great public outcry for action to end the war in syria is just basic pacifism, i seriously doubt anyone has any notion of things 'recovering'
>>1060096
theres nothing 'rasist' or whatever about this when you think about it, its more like a appeal to a reasonable dose of equal oportunity hatred, its perfectly logical to describe human beings as large intelligent beasts, and that makes them, by default, and without negating any positive aspect, a potential danger and a problem
in other words, its specificaly ones humanity, ones basic human-beingnes, not the lack of it, that makes him or her a potential danger and a problem
and with regards to populations and/or organisations this obviously does not just add up but multiplyes
think this is the crucial thing, and it baffles me how something so obvious can be so completely ignored
>>1059974
Behaviorism
>>1059974
>people are only their genes as they are born
>people are not the sum of their actions and experiences
That's retarded.
We aren't worshiping baby Lincoln and baby Hitler
>>1061331
You're on OPs side.
>I mean you got Lincoln and Hitler as good/bad guy in history, but if Lincoln was born in traditionalist Germany circa 1920 and Hitler in multicultural New York prior to civil war, they could as well switch places and we would be worshipping Hitler and demonizing Lincoln.
>>1061331
Eh. Its not just genes. Its culture and upbringing.
That said, culture and upbringing are rather predetermined.
Language for example can shape how a person thinks. Some languages have words for certain ideas and some lack concepts.
Imagine a language with concepts that you can't think of now.
And language is 300 million years of biological evolution so there.
