It's Good Friday.
How do you view the crucifixion of Christ?
>>886410
As the quintessesntial part of the story
living a good life means coming in conflict with the law and being crucified, nothing has changed
One of the absolutely most important events in human history.
>>886410
Climax of the narrative.
>>886423
Was he also 'paying the debt' for our sins?
>>886410
Probably happened.Still, I kind of dislike that the gospels say that Pontius Pilate met and interrogated with Jesus, when, knowing what we know how he reacted, he merely would have signed the orders and went along with his day. extra-biblical Sources indicate that Pilate wasn't anything other than a minor despot not above using violence to quell potential unrest.
>>886432
What about the resurrection?
>>886410
crucifixion is less important than the resurrection IMO
1 Corinthians 15:14 "and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."
Execution of a zealous Palestinian Jew for treason against the Roman state, which was then mythologised by making that Palestinian the ultimate martyr.
>>886410
As happening on a Thursday, actually.
As the greatest act of love in the history of the universe.
As the greatest tragedy of mankind in the history of the universe.
As the most important act since the Creation of the universe.
>>886437
Yes.
>>886410
Good clean Roman fun.
>>886463
>on a Thursday
what christian faction are you?
also, has any of you guise notice Jesus lied?
he said "i'll rez in 3 days" but it only took 40 hours
>>886438
His wife had previously warned him that she had a dream about Jesus, and not to have anything to do with the man. And of course Pilate had heard stories and rumors about Jesus, and finally had his chance to confront the man.
And what was his comment?
"Behold, the Man."
>>886445
The only reason men have hope.
>>886448
He was found innocent of treason by Rome.
A popular myth derived from a rather mundane and unimportant affair in a backwater Roman province, exaggerated an deified more than anything else on Earth
>>886448
I think if the man known as Jesus had not died, there'd be no devotion to his cult. Death is what gave the cult it's impetus. And it was not just just his; Christianity started to gain converts and attention after what became known as Cyprian's Plague, where Christians began making burials and attended to the dying while pagans stood idly, not by their own. This event shook the confidence believers in the dominant pagan religion(s), which hitherto had no response to the plague.
>>886463
>As the greatest act of love in the history of the universe.
>As the greatest tragedy of mankind in the history of the universe.
>As the most important act since the Creation of the universe.
An apocalyptic preaching Jew who became a meme is the most important thing in the history of the universe? Really?
>>886468
Exactly the same question.
It's kind of complicated to answer, but here goes. Jesus is the Lamb of God, sent to the world to be crucified on the Passover. He actively worked to make sure that happened.
Passover then and Passover now are different. Then it was about the Law of Moses; now it's about tradition.
When it was about the Law of Moses, the Feast of Unleavened Bread started 24 hours after the Passover, and was a high sabbath.
So Sunday, Nisan 10, the Lamb of God presents Himself for inspection, to be found spotless and blameless by the priests and pharisees.
Wednesday night, the start of Passover, Jesus and the disciples have the Last Supper. Jesus goes to the Garden of Gethsemane, gets arrested, and put on trial.
Thursday, Nisan 14, Passover, Jesus is crucified and dies, and is buried in a sealed tomb.
Sunday morning, Nisan 17, on the Festival of First Fruits, Jesus is out of the tomb and alive when the women go to finish embalming Him.
Three days and three nights. Just as He said.
>>886476
*tip fedora*
Jesus is as important as Buddha and Santa Claus. there would be no world as we know it without them
>>886476
Seems unlikely. What's your evidence? Oh, yeah, that people still worship Jesus as God.
>>886465
I recently came across the view that, though we have come to see Jesus as the ultimate scapegoat, it would be better to see it as illustrating the absurdity of scapegoating.
>>886487
There was a man similar to Jesus, whom the Jews also killed, and his sheep scattered. The Jews predicted the disciples would do the same, after they killed Jesus.
Instead, the disciples went to their respective gruesome deaths spreading the good news that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, and was alive.
To refute this, one would only need to produce Jesus' dead body.
Such refutation never came.
>>886489
From our perspectives, yes. The same Jew Who died is the One Who made the universe to begin with.
>>886500
Hell exists for just such people.
>>886502
>Instead, the disciples went to their respective gruesome deaths spreading the good news that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, and was alive.
Of course, there is no reference to their supposed martyrdoms save those written by Christians decades if not centuries later.
>>886521
At least, not for most of them.
I always found it weird how the symbol of the religion is the instrument of torture used to kill the man we worship. I mean, if Christ had been hanged, would we all be praying to a noose? If he were burned would we go all Zoroastrianism 2.0?
>>886502
Yes because 40 days in Gehenna rotting away will produce no such changes to the body.
Christ they could even have denied it was his, it's not like he was he only crucified person in Jerusalem.
>>886445
That was the resolution, what comes after the climax which, the tipping point of the action.
>a plutocracy executing a man for preaching that the poor are important too
Yet another example of the bourgeoisie violently trying to keep the proletariat down.
>>886516
Really? I thought it was kinda insightful.
>>886410
a wonderful day to celebrate human sacrifice and a reminder that christians believe ichor is magical
>>886521
Yes, there are records of them. If there were no records at all, you would use their absence as evidence, because that's how you think.
Discount everything you don't already agree with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmXO7aYDUAs
Ingmar Bergman had a good take on it.
>>886551
show me the records that are contemporary to their deaths
>>886529
kek
If the Jews had killed Him, we would have had to hit ourselves 20 times in rapid succession all over to recreate His stoning!
Worshiping the cross would be something God would not appreciate very much. Nor carrying about walking sticks depicting Him dead on it.
>>886534
>tipping the fedora this hard
>"Christ" as an exclamation
>>886534
One, Jesus was dead three days, and two, He was not in Gehenna, but Sheol.
God did not allow Him to decompose, at all. He saw no corruption.
All they had to do was order the guard to roll away the massive stone mortared to the cave, go in, and retrieve His body.
But the stone was rolled away, and the guards unconscious.
Who Moved The Stone?
>>886551
>Yes, there are records of them. If there were no records at all, you would use their absence as evidence, because that's how you think.
There aren't any records of their martyrdom except arguably Peter and even the evidence for his is dubious.
>>886547
To say it is blasphemy is to downplay the evil it represents.
>>886551
>Yes, there are records of them.
Produce them (ones that aren't written by Church fathers from the 2nd century), and stop making assumptions about how I do or don't think.
>>886549
Not magical, life.
All have sinned.
The wages of sin is death.
The life is in the blood.
Without the shedding of blood, death, there is no remission of sins.
Maybe one day you'll realize how horrific iniquity is, when it caused the death of God to fix.
>>886561
i agree with you for another reason though (i'm >>886447)
no idea with the obsession over His death, when He lived so we would all have proof of our faith. i don't have any crosses at home, i prefer to use this image instead
>>886559
You grew up in a twitterverse.
Try to imagine you lived 2000 years ago.
>>886566
no one, the tomb never existed in the first place because the gospels are just a midrashic story
>>886573
exactly, blood is magical and can wash away sins
>>886573
God could remit sins however he wanted, he's omnipotent.
>>886577
*tips*
>>886576
actually I would prefer to imagine that you can back up your claims
>>886566
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
Can't tell if you are just a christcuck artist or a deliberate troll.
>>886584
Epic argument brah
>>886572
You've displayed your bias already, by tossing out anything christians wrote about christians.
>>886575
Amen. I pondered what that lost little lamb did to be saved. It wandered away, got lost, and lay down, presumably to die. And then Jesus comes and picks it up, and rejoices that He has redeemed the lost lamb.
Then it hit me. I did the same thing to be saved. I just consented to be saved. He did all the finding, all the lifting, and all the carrying.
>>886543
Correct.
>>886577
You can visit the tomb today, actually. If you had any money, that is.
>>886580
Not wash away sins.
Pay the death penalty for crimes against God.
He paid a debt He did not owe, because we owed a debt we could not pay.
>>886602
That's not what I'm doing. I'm skeptical about Christians centuries and hundreds of miles removed writing about supposed martyrs who were probably the centers of dozens of conflicting legends and myths even in their own times.
>>886581
I do not believe this is true. Jesus begged the Father in the Garden for any other way, and there was none.
>>886585
My claims are not disputed.
>>886604
No one denies Jesus was crucified (well some people do but they're irrelevant), I'm just skeptical that the Gospels are 100% historically accurate.
>>886591
Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[2] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, although the King James Version of the Bible usually translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.
You should probably read what you cite, when your citations contradict you.
>>886615
You already did what you were accused of. If you want to backpedal, feel free to do so.
>>886619
Have they ever been found to be inaccurate at any point?
>>886624
Show me where I did that.
>>886619
well i won't lie to you: there's no 100% historically accurate depiction of the past because (a) they were written by biased non-scientists as an expression of their current world viewpoints and (b) there's always two sides to the story: the victor and the loser
so you can just wear your fedora and waddle in the muddle of doubt because your question has no """""scientific"""""" answer. or you can be a moderate agnostic and shut the fuck up
>>886616
I would say that although is wasn't necessary for God to redeem us this way, it was fitting. There is no necessity in God, but there is a certain logic to his divine plan.
>>886626
Yes.
Wanna start with the Census of Quirinus?
>>886634
>Produce them (ones that aren't written by Church fathers from the 2nd century), and stop making assumptions about how I do or don't think.
>>886644
Which one? The first one, @6 BC, or the second one, @7 AD?
>>886626
I don't know if they've ever been proven inaccurate on any mundane historical points (local customs or dates etc.), though there are certainly some questions as to, for example, the procedure the Sanhedrin follow when trying Jesus in Mark, or the timing of Luke's census.
Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any real inaccuracies concerning cultural or secular history, since they were written pretty close in time to the events they depict.
But I'm very skeptical of the supernatural claims all the same, just like I'm skeptical of pagan sources that claim the gods helped win this battle or the gods blessed this king.
>>886635
>or you can be a moderate agnostic
That's what I am tho
>>886620
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
> "in Roman times fires were kept burning and the valley became the rubbish dump of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals were thrown."
Read the whole source you autist.
>>886646
A 6 BC census under Quirinius is just an invention of Christian apologists who for some reason think one tiny and completely insignificant historical error invalidates their entire faith.
>>886614
Then God isn't loving. He could just forgive the debt away.
This is why Penal Substitutionary Atonement makes no sense!
>>886650
We agree that the Sanhedrin broke their own laws in the trial of Jesus. Maybe dozens of their own laws.
So what do we draw from that? That the entire account is fictional? Or that the Jews broke their own laws to order their Messiah killed?
>>886604
Tacitus is a very disputable source.
You have to assume that demonstrable changes ('i' in Christians replaces an 'e', rendering the word completely different and the later Chrstus must be interpreted differently as a result) made to the source document are in line with the original document to even gain any knowledge on Christians out of it.
You also have to assume that there are no further modifications, given its dubious history.
You also have to assume that Tacitus' information has a reliable source for this information.
>>886654
I did. The ever burning trash dump outside of Jerusalem is a picture of the ever burning lake of fire in the outer darkness.
It's empty right now. The first two inhabitants, the pope and the Antichrist, have not been cast in there yet.
Hades had two compartments, Paradise and Torment. Paradise is empty; Jesus emptied it out when He rose from the dead, and set those captives free. Hades is full, and getting more full, with the souls of the unbelievers waiting for judgment, and then being cast into the lake of fire, Gehenna. Sheol itself will be cast into Gehenna, and remembered no more.
>>886655
It isn't, actually. They found another commendation plate for Quirinius when he was not the governor, but was an important man in the area. The census numbered 117,000+, iirc.
>>886667
K.
>>886657
Forgiveness has a price to pay. The muslim god just forgives people at random, or not, as he wills. Maybe you would be more comfortable there.
>>886662
If Tacitus is not good enough for you, and the Holy Spirit is not good enough for you, I don't think you have much hope.
>>886671
I know the tablet you're talking about. It doesn't give any dates. In all probability it's talking about the very same AD 6 census, not an earlier one.
>>886667
>conflating history and theology
>being this retarded
Are you just ignoring the fact that Gehenna was a rubbish dump for burying criminals away from normal Jews because it poses a threat to your faith?
Man, how weak is your faith?
>>886657
Who was the debt being paid to?
-If God, he is petty and cruel
-If Devil, he is more powerful than God
Therefore, no debt payment.
QED?
>>886689
It's a different number, which is kind of the point.
>>886690
I said it was a picture. A type. Something to look at while you think of an outer darkness where you're going to burn forever.
>>886697
The Father.
Punishing crime is not petty and cruel. It's holy, just and righteous.
>>886706
Chrstfag please leave this board, take your protestard beliefs out of /his/.
>>886699
I'm not sure there are any numbers for Qurinius census besides the one on that stone.
I don't think Augustus ever called for a census of the whole empire, anyway.
>>886707
it isn't rightious to punish the son for the sins of the father, which is exactly what original sin is
>>886721
That's why some churches say we inherit the effects of ancestral sin, but not the guilt.
>>886710
Are you attempting an atheist exorcism?
kek
>>886697
You are presuming that death is nearly equivalently cruel to Hell.
>>886711
It looks more like a regional issue, with Quirinius having some role in governing Syria other than being the governor, as Luke uses a different word than governor for the census first taken.
Honestly, bottom line, Luke's my boy, and he's been 100% so far, and will remain so.
>>886410
As a necessary evil for the salvation of humanity, if you believe the Scripture.
>>886721
It is. And your use of "original sin" is a red herring.
>>886733
but that doesn't change anything because it still can get you tortured for eternity
>>886748
???
do you even know what a red herring is?
>>886739
Nah, just trying to get /his/ back to when it was about history, not /pol/ tier intellectual protestard circle jerking as displayed by yours truly.
>>886750
Which is why it's wrong.
All of the sins of the entire world were forgiven at the cross. All of your sins were forgiven you before you were born.
You only have 1 job.
Believe.
>>886759
Yes. Go ahead and explain what you mean by "original sin" and I'll show you how it has no place in the conversation about the forgiveness of sins.
jesus <3
>>886760
You know the board has "religion" in the title, yes? And you have free will, to not click on bait?
>>886410
The Romans executing a terrorist.. Just as the US are doing now... not sure why it's still getting so much press. The Roman Empire did more for the world IMO
..
>>886763
So how you live your life doesn't matter?
>>886779
Jesus made the world.
>>886812
How did you reach that conclusion from what I said?
>>886742
People kind of disregard all the other gospels save for Mark because it's claimed to be more "historical" but Luke, influenced by the likes of Polybius and probably Herodotus, in that he was thinking more as a historian (in as much as we can think of anyone in antiquity as one) than the other gospel writers.
>>886816
I'm not sure.
I just wanted to pop in and wish everybody a happy Good Friday :D
May the Lord be with you all, God bless
>>886818
The problem with Luke is that he claims to have sources (always a positive) but he doesn't tell us who they are.
>>886818
Luke's one of the greatest historians of the ancient world, being 100% correct on people, places and things. He's the only one who said he was going to write an orderly gospel of things from the beginning to the end.
>>886823
Then let me answer your question directly.
When you have confessed that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you can absolutely live your life however you choose.
You will, in fact, and for the first time, be free to do so.
You will also notice that you have changed; that the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit changes what you want, and what you desire, and gives you a little power too.
As a born again Christian, for example, I murder as many people as I want to. Zero. I slam as much heroin as I want to. Zero. I rob as many bums as I want to. Zero.
My wants changed, and so will yours.
>>886674
Then it's not forgiveness.
If I owe someone a debt and the debtor "forgives" the debt, the debt is no more and nobody paid anything.
Thus even Allah of Islam is more forgiving than your god.
>>886855
If you owed the corner grocer $100, and I went in and paid him $100 on your behalf, you would owe him zero, yes?
So I would have paid your debt?
The grocer would be happy? You would be happy?
>>886697
Then no Penal Substitutionary Atonement. Simple as that.
>>886873
Propitiation, not atonement. Atonement only covers stuff up.
>>886846
*Instantly converts*
>>886860
That's not how the Atonement works in Christianity of course, particularly your brand of it.
It's more of, two people did something that God got so pissed off at that to forgive their descendants, he beats up his only son and that such forgiveness is only accessible to those who accept Christ.
That's kinda like, I play a game, I keep losing. I got so pissed at the game console and disc, I beat my own son up to vent my anger.
Also, the grocer is God the Father and this shows he never forgived me. Someone else come and paid him. He didn't cancel the debt.
>>886881
That would be my hope and prayer, yes.
Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach) that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
>>886889
Jesus did not provide atonement. He provided propitiation.
The blood of lambs and oxen provided atonement. They just covered up the sins, temporarily, and had to be re-applied every year.
Jesus died once, for all. He finished His work. and now the Holy Spirit transforms whoever wills into a new creation in Christ Jesus.
1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
>>886889
>Someone else come and paid him. He didn't cancel the debt.
You are accusing God of being unjust.
>>886880
Once sin is understood not as some sort of debt that human beings cannot pay off and that Jesus don't come to pay on their behalf, the act of Christ on the Cross must be for something else.
To do this is to simply take one aspect that describes the overall work of Christ and pervert it. Kinda like what Calvin did with PSA.
>>886912
Are you advocating this sort of "understanding"?
>>886902
Of course the problem is what is sin?
We see sin as something to the Protestants as things that pissed off god. So god took it on his son to forgive them. That ain't forgiveness. That's simply venting anger.
>>886906
He is based on your model. For God to truly forgive the debt, he should just come down or reveal himself and say that he forgives everyone.
>>886924
No. But many Protestants do.
some of you jews are alright
don't come to Golgotha today
>>886930
I see.
You would rather an unjust God vent His anger on you.
Have you ever heard the phrase "be careful what you wish for"?
>>886933
I've never seen, met, nor heard of one doing something that foolish. Since you use papist language, I assume you're a lost papist, in which case the things of God just aren't for you.
>>886942
kek
DUDE FREE BARRABAS LMAO
as a lapsed catholic I do my best not to think about it just like most other biblical happenings. all the while cursing heretics and protestant scum
>>886832
Pretty sure the Gospel of Mark is one of his sources.
>>886976
Your view of sin and the entire work of Christ is within a context where God cannot forgive without punishment, where he is angry all because Adam and Eve ate from a tree.
Thus God forces his son who is man and can feel all the pain and shit to suffer so that he can forgive everyone else. That is a sick and twisted system.
>>886970
I never said that. That's your theology, not mine.
God just have to forgive humanity without any cost or price humanity itself must pay or get someone to "pay" on behalf of them since the supposed debt is to him.
>>886976
>Protestants
Kek, enjoying your man made religion that lacks any apostolic succession?
Funny that Protestants use the Bible Catholics canonized and then just censor any parts that goes against their beliefs.
>Do you even uplift?
>>886993
Doesn't claim it to be his source, but it's pretty clear "Luke" based it off of the gospel of Mark.
>>886993
sort of, he plagarizes Mark
>>886994
My view is that mankind died when Adam and Eve joined satan's rebellion and sinned, and the Holy Spirit fled them.
Being born dead, and having a sin barrier between us and God, is fatal. No hope. Born, live, die, go to hell forever.
Jesus stepped into history to change that, and to remove the sin barrier between man and God, so that whoever chooses to believe can live with God again by accepting the free gift of God's salvation.
Who do you think knows more about Christianity, me or you?
>>887015
I will, thank you.
Funny that the bible was finished in 95 AD, and was widely disseminated to Christians all over the world.
>>887017
Pfff, Jesus is all work muscle, not show muscle.
>>887034
Are you finished with your homework yet? You know the rules!
>>887034
*mfw
>>887028
>Funny that the bible was finished in 95 AD, and was widely disseminated to Christians all over the world.
Kek, sure, sure protestard. In your mind.
>>887046
And in reality.
See, putting the donuts in a box doesn't make you the baker.
>>887035
you are simply assuming that he did
>>887025
Adam and Eve were tricked. they never joined to begin with. All God needed to do was explain the whole shit to them and boom, done. They understand what they need to do and their mistakes and none of that God beating Jesus shit have to happen. Of course this isn't the sole problem with your crap understanding.
For those after them who have nothing to do with the whole Fall thing to suffer and die in Hell for merely existing or being tainted by some sort of thing which they never chose to be tainted by in the first place shows how evil your god is.
A supposedly loving God who loved the world sentences human beings who had nothing to do with the Fall nor chose to have their afflictions to eternal damnation. Real loving indeed.
Bullshit theology 101
>>887028
Protesturds explain,
Perhaps the most important aspect of the rule of faith is that it gives us what the Church conceived to be ‘the main body of truth’ (to use Irenaeus’ phrase). The Scriptures are, after all, a body of documents testifying to God’s activity towards men in Christ. They are not a rule of faith, nor a list of doctrines, nor a manual of the articles of a Christian man’s belief. In the rule of faith we have a key to what the Church thought the Scriptures came to, where it was, so to speak, that their weight fell, what was their drift. This interpretation of their drift was itself tradition, a way of handling the Scriptures, a way of living in them and being exposed to their effect, which, while not an original part of the Christian Gospel, not itself the paradosis par excellence, had been developed from the Gospel itself, from its heart, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as an essential part of the existence of the Christian faith in history…
We cannot recognize the rule of faith as original tradition, going back by oral continuity independently of Scripture to Christ and his apostles. But we can recognize it as the tradition in which the Church was interpreting Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and as such claim it as an essential ingredient of historical Christianity. (R.P.C. Hanson, Tradition In The Early Church, pp. 128, 129)
>>887028
and how do you explain Clement's inability to reference any teaching by jesus or event in the gospel in his letter in the 90s AD when he was the Bishop of Rome?
>>887067
"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."
"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.
>>887080
that isn't by Clement. additionally, while that has a similar message to jesus, it doesn't state it as though it is something jesus talked about
>>887089
That is by Ignatius of Antioch.
Here, he explicitly affirms the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist all in the late or early 2nd century.
This is something the Prots here don't believe in
>>887097
>>887097
ok? why then did you reply to me when that had absolutely nothing to do with my post?
>>887034
> mention Jesuits
> hopping thread slides down the catalogue.
Oh SHIT
>>887132
I just wanted to show the illegitimacy of Protestantism by backing up your point about Clement
>>887054
He says it.
Luke 1
Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled[a] among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.
Luke's attached to Paul, and Paul didn't meet Jesus until after the resurrection.
>>886543
That's uh - there was no such thing as the bourgeoisie in antiquity.
>>887057
Eve was tricked; Adam was not. Adam willfully sinned. Both disbelieved God, and believed the devil, and both died.
They didn't make a mistake. They died. They went from living beings to dead beings. And the only way to restore the life they lost, the Breath of Life, the Holy Spirit of God, is to remove the sin.
God didn't need to tell them that they died; they knew, instantly, and tried to hide from Him.
It's like you never read the bible.
>>887189
Except of course nowhere does it even mention the Holy Spirit leaving them and whatever.
Adam and Eve were victims of deceit and God instead of simply correcting them and forgiving them, punished them and their innocent descendants.
Either way, my two points still stand.
An evil deity you worship. If he exists, humanity must kill it.
It's like you never use your brain.
>>887189
>writing him with a capital H
*tips fedora*
>>887066
It's the way cults are started.
>>887207
That cult is the very church of Jaysus dingus!
>>886410
Talk shit, get hit.
>>887067
Bishop of Rome......90 AD.....when Christians were being fed to lions......centuries before the bishop of Rome office was created.......
It's not in the bible. It's not inspired. I don't care about it one single bit. When I fully understand all of the inspired bible, maybe, just maybe, when eternity presses me for something to do that matters not, I will study Clement of Rome.
>>887174
exactly, you are just assuming he did because he says so. also, you are just assuming that Luke wrote it. all the gospels were originally anonymous
>>887097
Correct. We also don't believe in blasphemy, abominations, idolatry, and necromancy.
>>887149
So, because papists are evil, and say Christians are evil, Christians are evil?
kek
>>887217
Guess God failed in protecting his own people and saving them. Everyone until denomination x emerged magically will burn in hell forever.
Poor Ignatius who wrote that on his way to martyrdom.
>>887196
They died that day, and physically lived for 900 more years.
He who has the Spirit has life; he who has not the Spirit has not life.
>>887221
That's not even my point inbred
>>887196
What you say is contrary to the Word of God.
1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
>>887203
It's proper English. And respectful. Two mysteries to you.
>>887212
seriously? he was the bishop of Rome, obviously there was an office of the bishop of Rome at the time. it doesn't fucking matter whether it is "inspired", it's a legitimate record of early christianity and you can't simply dismiss it because it isn't "inspired". perhaps we should just dismiss all historical documents because they aren't arbitrarily called "god-breathed"
>>887209
It's a big cult, yes. It has nothing to do with Jesus.
>>887214
You may say that I make the assumption that everything properly in the bible is true.
That is indeed my stance.
>>887231
No, it is not proper English. There is no grammatical rule that mandates capitalizing pronouns referring to God.
>>887225
Some will be saved; most will not.
>>887228
It was, though. See, you rely on liars to tell you the truth, and I know they lie.
>>887241
Glad to see we agree that you are basing your world view on a baseless assumption
>>887235
Nope. There were emperors throwing Christians to the lions. It was an outlawed religion. Persecuted. Murdered. Maybe 100,000 martyrs.
>>887235
You would do well to be skeptical of all uninspired historical works, yes.
>>887242
English speakers also traditionally capitalize the pronoun He in reference to God. This remains a common practice among people of faith...
The Grammarist
>>887264
Sure, it's common practice and there's nothing wrong with it, but it's not improper English not to capitalize.
>>887249
He was not deceived. See in the bible where it says Adam was not deceived? Adam was not deceived.
You haven't made any arguments; you just blaspheme God like a little child.
>>887252
The Word of God is a rock of a foundation, and not baseless at all.
>>887258
Many were saved. Adam and Eve were saved. Anyone who looked forward to the Messiah was saved. Anyone who believed Moses and the prophets was saved. Anyone who believed God was saved. And then Jesus was born of a virgin, and anyone who believes Him is saved.
>>887268
When you respect God, you show it. When you do not respect God, you show that too.
>>887254
>maybe 100,000 martyrs
where the fuck did you pull that number from? you can see in Paul's letter to the Romans that there was already a church there before he arrived. persecution or not it's simply a fact that there was a bishop of Rome in the first century. it definitely didn't have the centralized power of the vatican obviously but it did exist. i can't believe that you can flat out deny the historical record just by exaggerating your persecution boogeyman
Pontius Pilate having the most annoying day of his life
>>887256
i would agree, except I would include the "inspired" documents in what I'm sceptical of. but sceptical does not mean denying that there is any truth in them
>>887283
Your grasp of history is pathetic. The only thing worse than your grasp of history is your grasp of theology.
>>887269
You ignore the point I had made. Good job not using your brain.
I said that Adam was a victim of deception. That doesn't necessarily meant that Satan tempted him. He could just be the consequence of someone else getting deceived.
Use your fucking brain for once
>>887275
Is Ignatius of Antioch saved?
By your logic here, Catholics are Saved and there's no point arguing.
But you reject what Ignatius believed. You reject the Church in its infancy. So to be consistent they must all be damned until your shit cult emerged.
Thus, to say this is to create a contradiction.
Protestant, being illogical since Luther
>>887273
then prove it is anything more than a baseless assumption
>>887290
sounds like you're projecting
>>887289
Most historical documents, uninspired, were written to make their leaders look good. In the OT, it seems that the opposite is true. The truth makes the leaders look bad, most of the time.
For instance, when Sennacherib besieged Jerusalem, and lost 186,000 soldiers overnight, and retreated, he went home and it was recorded that he bottled the King of the Jews up in his city like a caged bird. He tried to spin it as a win.
His sons knew better, and killed him, and took his crown.
>>887292
Your point: Adam was deceived.
The bible: Adam was not deceived.
You have no point. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. Nothing. Zilch. Nichts.
>>887292
Most catholics go to hell, actually. Very few are saved.
>>887295
It tells the story of the world from beginning to end, which is something only God knows. It is the inspired Word of God, whereby the Holy Spirit entered into the authors, and brought all things to their remembrance. As He is the Spirit of Truth, what He inspired is true.
The bible is the anvil upon which thousands of hammers have been broken.
>>887307
>Adam and Eve were victims of deceit
>Adam and Eve were tricked
Adam tricked by Eve(though she did so unintentionally) who in turn got tricked by Satan.
How idiotic can you get?
This shows how deceitful you are.
FUCK OFF
This isn't even the main point of my argument.
>>887309
And so did all the Early Christians and those who literally worship words.
According to Prot logic, Nomina Sacra is idolatry
>>887315
the world wasn't made in 6 days retard
>>887301
Go back to High School. Start over.
>>887318
Your point: Adam was deceived.
The bible: Adam was not deceived.
>>887309
Most ____ go to hell, actually. Very few are saved.
>Insert every possible religious group
Protestants please prove the existence of God through Scripture Alone.
Offer a convincing argument though it. No philosophy, no reason, just Scripture Alone.
Oh wait, once that's done, it becomes Circular Reasoning!
This shows the illogicality of Sola Scriptura
>>887319
All of the early Christians went to heaven, actually.
Catholics didn't exist until 325 AD.
>>887334
quality. absolute quality. you are a master debater, senpai
>>887339
Good job misrepresenting me once more and ignoring the main points of my argument.
arrogance and hypocrisy the virtues of Protesturdism
>>887319
>Nomina Sacra
Why would abbreviations be idolatry?
>>887332
And yet, it was.
Were you there? No?
Was God? Yes?
Did God lie to Moses? No?
>>887345
Ignatius is an Early Christian who lived from the late 1st century to the early 2nd dumbass.
>>887340
Correct, except as to born again Christians. All born again Christians go to heaven. 100%.
>>887344
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
>>887353
>
It is evident that the use of nomina sacra was an act of reverence rather than a purely practical space-saving device, as they were employed even where well-established abbreviations of far more frequent words such as and were avoided, and the nomen sacrum itself was written with generous spacing. Furthermore, early scribes often distinguished between mundane and sacred occurrences of the same word, e.g. a spirit vs. the Spirit, and applied nomina sacra only to the latter (at times necessarily revealing an exegetical choice), although later scribes would mechanically abbreviate all occurrences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra
>>887351
Your point: Adam was tricked.
The bible: Adam was not tricked.
>>887362
>Circular Reasoning
>Proof by assertion
>>887355
Was he? Or was he an early cultist who died and went to hell? Who knows? Oh, yeah, only God.
>>887354
yes, a creation account based upon a babylonian one and written in hebrew, a language that didn't exist until 1000BC and in a style of hebrew that didn't exist until after the Babylonian exile was obviously written by Moses around 1400BC in the desert with little to no access to writing material
>>887365
I can't even manufacture a problem with that. Why Anon things "protestants" call that idolatry is beyond me.
>>887370
Draw the circle for me.
>>887359
God must be happy that you're doing his job.
>>887378
It's not based on Babylon, actually. There are many people who think Adam, Seth, Noah, etc., left writings behind; who are you to say when men started writing things down?
>>887379
Except it is since the Nomina Sacra is written down as an act of reverence. They are making a word idol of Jesus by doing that!
By the logic of all our Prot anons here, that is idolatry.
>>887384
Your argument: Eve gave Adam the apple.
The bible: Adam was not deceived.
In heaven, and on earth, and out of your sight, and barely within your reach, only because God is more long-suffering than I.
>>887386
It's always been about a collaboration between God and man. I do man stuff, He does God stuff.
>>887397
That made Adam got tricked by Eve dumbass.
NOW FUCK OFF WITH YOUR STRAWMAN
>>887394
No they're not. They're saving themselves some work.
>>887401
Your argument: Adam was deceived by Eve.
The bible: Adam was not deceived.
>>887399
Not according to Sola Fide. It's all God, not man.
You are simply a shitty puppet. Which is why all the arguments put forth by the Protshits here are nonsensical
>>887390
who are you to say that these people left writings behind when we have no reason to think they even existed? You are simply making shit up and ignoring evidence that contradicts what you believe
>>887412
Man has to consent. Jesus is the author and finisher of salvation. Again a collaboration for the saved, and nothing for the lost. Lost people have told God they want nothing to do with Him. Ever.
>>887420
I'm an adopted son of God. Whose child are you?
>>887422
Does spacing cause work? Look, you're trying to manufacture a problem and pin it on people who have never heard about what you're talking about.
>>887422
Argument: Adam was deceived.
Bible: Adam was not deceived.
>>886410
Indifferent, personally. Just some Jew. But thankful in how it shaped human history.
>>887433
The definition of Sola Fide presupposes that the faith itself is from God. This means there's no consent or even act of the human will involved!
>>887441
Yes it does since one have to spend more time writing that down. But we see that the copyists don't care. And from this, it is obvious as with the general scholarly consensus that the Nomina Sacra is a form of devotion. But this means idolatry by Prot logic since the copyists are now worshiping words.
This is of course a problem for Protestantism since the Early Christians are not just against Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide and their view of the Eucharist but they also created what is essentially a linguistic form of Iconography which Protestants abhor!
>>887444
Proving my point imbecile.
>>887460
Correct. God provides men with the faith that men can choose to use to believe God. Believing God is an act of faith. One that is rewarded. Your consent to be saved is your choice to believe by faith that Jesus is Who He says He is. Sola fide excludes works being part of being saved. How much did your parents charge you for your Christmas presents?
Again, I didn't know what you were talking about, and from a quick glance, you seem to be attempting to make a mountain out of a molehill, to make a false correlation between abbreviating words and praying to Mary as though she could hear you.
Protip: She cannot.
>>887464
Your argument: Everything in the bible is false.
The bible: Adam was not deceived.
>>887474
No, that means the human will and faith is active. This opposes the very definition of Sola Fide. After all "Faith" is a sort of trust which means that the trust of man to be truly him trusting must be from him, not from external mind control as Sola Fide officially declares.
Thus your point here is a contradiction the very act of trusting in God comes from God, not the human agent. This means no free will. No consent or assent is ever given by the human, merely instead he is coerced by God.
I would let scholar Larry Hurtado's words speak for themselves regarding the general scholarly view of what the Nomina Sacra is,
>Most scholars (this one included) think that (1) they originated in early Christian circles, and (2) they originated as an expression of reverence for the words so treated.
https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/nomina-sacra-the-continuing-debate/
Proving my point once more. And as for you, no sources whatsoever cited, only your own unconvincing assertions backed up by NOTHING.
> Faith is seen as passive, merely receiving Christ and all his benefits, among which benefits are the active and passive righteousness of Jesus Christ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide
The act of human free will in this makes the Faith, active which contradicts it!
>>887500
Why not believe the bible?
Hebrews 11
[ By Faith We Understand ] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. ...
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
>>887500
Again, you're the only one talking about this nonsense. Nobody cares. Nobody believes what you say we believe. It's a non-issue.
>>887523
You are ignoring my point.
If we follow your interpretation of Scripture, I'm right, we are all mere puppets and have no free will. This ultimately leads to Calvinism and opens a huge can of worms.
>>887531
Ewwww, when did you evil perverted and twisted soul enter this gate?
