Is there any philosopher, philosophical concept or school of philosophy that can be used to analyze and discuss (or just say something intelligent) about video games?
Some things I had in mind are Aristotle's idea of practical reason and the irreducability of experience, Kant's notion of imagination as "uninterested interest", and some theories of imitation and learning. Even Marx can come in handy here.
Since I'm not even a gamer myself, I'm more interested in the theoretical or reflexive aspects of gaming here. However, feel free to break it down to genres, history, and so on. You can also bring up philosophical ideas that are expressed in games, implicitly of explicitly.
Games are fucking games. Buzzfeed articles are not proper critique.
Games are, for all effect, simulations.
With that in mind, any philosophical theories that to apply to simulations (or sports, for that matter) also apply to videogames, if only by extension.
Since you were so kind as to stamp the great 'stache on your thread image, we can start with Nietzche:
Nietzche says any form of illusion weakens you and should be avoided. Therefore, it can be said that Nietzche strongly oppose the existence of videogames.
Also, on "Republic", Plato discourses on how necessary sports are for an ideal civilization as a form of self improvement. If you are willing to consider videogames a sport, then Plato is pro-gaming.
>>885041
I think he would qualify the specific content of games, however. Platonic videogames would probably be something Minecraft-tier.
This thread might go somewhere
keep going...
Braid had some genuine philosophical themes. Bioshock too.
>>885055
t. 16 Year old who just read brave new world
>>885058
Well they might be flat and rudimentary as fuck but the themes are there. Not every "Nietzsche for Dummies" is a masterpiece.
>>885070
There are themes on every half assed mature video game. Like people calling MGS2 a postmodern masterpiece whatever that means. I love my vydia but I'm not blind into thinking the writing is up there with the greatest.
>>884989
Video Games are still a very immature form of art, and game developers are almost almost exclusively busy with the visual technology of games (and maximising profit) rather than their potential as anything else.
But then again, the same could be said about film. Modern literature is shit too, now that I think of it. And let's not even get into what happened to painting, sculpture and poetry...
...alright, fuck it, art sucks.
![tumblr_m228xlG7tK1qcu0j0o1_500[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/AjlvMhn.jpg "tumblr_m228xlG7tK1qcu0j0o1_500[1].jpg")
>>885033
But would he? He surely says such things about faith but to make such distinctions between a simulation and the real and value some intrinsic real would strike me as against N's perspectivist ontology
And since you used the S word and I just got a copy of Simulacra and Simulation today, I present hip Postmodernist guy.
>>885096
It also seems to not gel with his Opera viewing.
>>885096
>>885105
I think Nietzsche was a bit platonic in the way that he approaches art as a vehicle for values. Those values might not be expressed as expressly as in Plato's proposition in the Republic, but it's still in there (i.e. Greek drama as irrationally cathartic, expressing the will to live etc.).
>>885110
So Nietszsche would be into shoot'em ups and Plato into Minecraft?
>>885033
>opposing vidya
DROPPED!
>>884989
>Is there any philosopher, philosophical concept or school of philosophy that can be used to analyze and discuss (or just say something intelligent) about video games?
The one where you talk about gameplay, since gameplay is the unique feature of games. That'd be intelligent, and it requires intelligence to create some good gameplay.
Read Alan Moore's writing for comics. He discusses how everybody in the field wants to copypaste movies, instead of using the unique features of the medium (the combination of pictures and text) to its potential.
>>885041
But Plato despises artists.
>>885091
Add videogame art design to the things that are shitty nowadays.
>>885194
>Add videogame art design to the things that are shitty nowadays.
Massively agreed. It's just rehashes of clichés, nothing is original and/or good.
*sniff* ideology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-0VMnFmnL0
>>885194
Remember early adventure games were basically a riff on literature, as in interactive fiction. In the 90s it was somewhat like theater and drama, and now it's movies. Video games constantly parasite on other media.
>>885206
I'm ready to bet my hard-earned cash this guy is lurking 4chan.
>>885207
Yar. They really need to grow up and develop something of their own.
Maybe it can be said that some indie games already did that, and that AAA industries will always be crap.
>>884989
literally any philosophy can be applied to video games
>>885194
>That'd be intelligent, and it requires intelligence to create some good gameplay.
this is phil101 you goddamn pleb and just because gameplay is unique to video games doesn't mean it's literally the only aspect of video games that can even be analysed. get out, pseud
>>885222
But he's right in the sense that gameplay is what distinguishes video games from other media. So if you're leaving it out of your analysis you're basically not analyzing VG but something else.
>>885232
not really if you're referring to a specific video game or something that comes up in video games. a philosophical look at video games doesn't mean actually mean looking at the medium as a whole. even if it did, gameplay still needs to be represented -- in the case of video games, on screen.
really no one on 4chan knows how to theorise video games very well. they don't think about them in depth
>>885194
>but Plato despises artists
No he didn't
>>885238
>really no one on 4chan knows how to theorise video games very well. they don't think about them in depth
Who does know?
>>885241
I think he meant artisans
>>885242
marx invented them
>>885242
Not that guy but Graeme Kirkpatrick and Mia Consalvo. So much of the field itself is total wank written by people shoehorning in shit
t. Games studies guy
>>885244
Plato didn't despise artisans either.
His position on art anyway was that art is useful as a means of education and transmission of knowledge. As such it's a means to an end rather than an autonomous field with its own ends and goals. From this he concluded that artists have no business participating in political life and should be subservient to the state. In modern terms you can say artists in the Platonic ideal state are basically commissioned contractors to do government projects; if it sounds incredibly modern it's no coincidence.
>42.
>NOW, ONE OF THE FOREMOST SOCIAL PREOCCUPATIONS AMONG THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION AND ONE OF THE MOST PERNICIOUS ONES IS “IMMERSION” —THE ENGROSSMENT IN VIRTUAL AND SENSUOUS EXPERIENCE. THIS PREOCCUPATION IS WIDESPREAD FROM CINEMA TO VIDEOGAMES, FROM SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY TO LITERATURE, ETCETERA; ID EST: IN VIRTUALLY ALL INSTITUTIONAL, ARTISTIC, AND SCIENTIFIC, FIELDS.
>THIS PHENOMENON IS A SEQUEL TO “HYPERREALITY”, OR MORE ACCURATELY, AN ASPECT OF IT; IN THE LATER DECADES OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY THE HYPERREAL WAS ACKNOWLEDGED, RATIONALIZED, AND TOLERATED AS INEVITABLE; NOW, IN THE EARLY DECADES OF THE TWENTYFIRST CENTURY, IN THE FORM OF THE PATHETIC STRUGGLE FOR “IMMERSION”, IT IS DEEMED AS A KIND OF REDEMPTIVE REALIZATION OF THE DESTINY OF “HUMANITY”; AN ESCAPE FROM THE WORLD VIA ILLUSION.
>IMMERSION IS DETRIMENTAL TO PERFECTION, AND TO PERFECTION'S CONSUMMATION, THEREFORE IT IS “EVIL”; IT SUBSUMES AND DILUTES CONSCIOUSNESS; IMMERSION STYMIES, AND ULTIMATELY PRECLUDES, THE PROCESS OF ONTOLOGICAL EVOLUTION BY SUPPRESSING SELFAWARENESS, AND CONSCIOUSNESS —CONSCIOUS PERCEPTION, CONSCIOUS THOUGHT, CONSCIOUS ACTION—, CONSEQUENTLY STIFLING THE SOUL.
>“IMMERSION”: FROM LATIN PREFIX “IN” (“IN”, “INTO”, “ON”, “ONTO”, “UPON”), AND VERB “MERGERE” (“TO PLUNGE”, “TO DIP”, “TO DIVE”); “MERGERE” IS ALSO THE ROOT FOR THE ENGLISH WORD “MERGE” (“TO COMBINE”, “TO BLEND”), THEREFORE IMMERSION SIGNIFIES A DIVING INTO SUBSTANCE; A MERGENCE OF ONESELF WITH SOMETHING EXTRANEOUS —EXTRANEOUS BECAUSE THE MERGENCE PRESUPPOSES SEPARATION—, ENTAILING THE DISSOLUTION OF BEING —ONTOLYSIS— INTO NONBEING; ID EST: NOT A PROGRESSIVE NOBLE SYNTHESIS IN WHICH BEING BECOMES ITSELF, BUT RATHER A REGRESSIVE IGNOBLE ABSORPTION.
http://mundusmillennialis.com/
>2018
>STILL playing videogames
One Frankly Expects You To Not Do This
>>885110
Plato would be SJW
Nietzsche would be #GG
>>885257
i can't tell if this is purposely written poorly or if the writer just thinks too highly of himself
>>885257
>>IMMERSION IS DETRIMENTAL TO PERFECTION, AND TO PERFECTION'S CONSUMMATION, THEREFORE IT IS “EVIL”; IT SUBSUMES AND DILUTES CONSCIOUSNESS; IMMERSION STYMIES, AND ULTIMATELY PRECLUDES, THE PROCESS OF ONTOLOGICAL EVOLUTION BY SUPPRESSING SELFAWARENESS, AND CONSCIOUSNESS —CONSCIOUS PERCEPTION, CONSCIOUS THOUGHT, CONSCIOUS ACTION—, CONSEQUENTLY STIFLING THE SOUL.
This is bullshit on so many levels.
>>885238
>gameplay still needs to be represented -- in the case of video games, on screen
No, it's in your inputs. The screen shows their outcome, successful or unsuccessful depending of opposition, if any - but not gameplay itself.
>really no one on 4chan knows how to theorise video games very well
Speak for yourself.
>>885241
>>885244
>>885252
If you're an ancient Greek hating on poets and finding trouble with connecting poetry to beauty, you hate art.
He's worried about poets corrupting the youth and wants censorship (Republic 377b–398b).
If you hate poetry because muh illusions, you're going to hate vidya.
Plato is your proof censorship-happy, politicized vidya haters predate not only videogames but even politics and philosophy themselves.
>>885270
>censorship-happy, politicized vidya haters
To be fair, this approach is not art-stifling by definition, since it can also result in the creation of politicized art i.e. propaganda. I'm sure you can think about common examples from video games.
>>885260
The latter, I've seen this guy post before. Last time I made fun of him he got really mad and responded with something along the lines of "haha just go little man"
>>885275
The hatred of poetry does not good poetry produce.
Marxism would be useful when it comes too grand strategy game simulation, more as in understanding how material situations result in social and cultural values and norms coming into being.
Another interesting point about Marxism is that through it's crisis theory it can at least provide a framework in which you could build systems that would "simulate" the growth and conflict.
You could use Marxism other ways, as well, in fact a PS4 "Marxism sandbox simulator" game is being developed called the Tomorrow Children. It tries to incentive players too work together and organize too build societies and defend against giant monsters according too the developers along revolutionary Marxist lines.
>>885270
lol gameplay isn't just inputs. inputs are inputs. to play the game you actually need to read it as well
>>885288
>You could use Marxism other ways, as well, in fact a PS4 "Marxism sandbox simulator" game is being developed called the Tomorrow Children. It tries to incentive players too work together and organize too build societies and defend against giant monsters according too the developers along revolutionary Marxist lines.
This is WAY more Plato than Marx.
>>885262
>This is bullshit on so many levels.
Of course you would think that if your soul were already stifled by the immersion that you live in.
>>885289
Don't confuse the input the player's brain receives with the input the game receives.
The player's decision-making is not the gameplay.
The gameplay is the process of translating the player's decision into a change of the action happening within the game.
I can sit in front of several racing games and approach a corner with my car:
- my decision remains the same (get out of the corner as fast as I can)
- the outcome remains the same (get out of the corner as fast as I can)
- my inputs are different, because the gameplay is different, because very few games have the same driving physics even when the same exact model of car (i.e. Nissan GT-R) and the same track (i.e. Nürburgring Nordschleife) are featured, and thus the driving experience is different
>>885321
For example, I've yet to play another racing game where I can drift my way around a track at ridiculously high speeds without ever touching the brake or handbrake since Ridge Racer Type 4 a single time.
Quite the unique gameplay when you could race with just the wheel and only one pedal instead of two...
>>885321
so you're approaching the corner with your car without actually seeing either a corner or a car? again, you need to actually read it as well. hence the 'video' in 'video games'. the inputs are meaningless if you don't know what you're doing, or at least certainly not something on which one can judge video games ... by the fact that they all feature inputs of some sort. in which case all video games are equally as good as the other on the basis that they involve gameplay
this is beside the point though. there's more to video games than gameplay
>>885091
Art is dead because it's easier, more profitable, and more reliable to market a shiny turd over and over than make anything new, interesting, or experimental. It works because people are willing to listen to the marketing and buy the shiny turd.
I don't see anything changing without major culture changes. It sounds pretentious as shit, but a new Renaissance. Something to make people care about what they are buying, watching, ect. again.
Maybe I'm just a cunt. Armchair intellectuals welcome, right?
>>885368
Are you suggesting that previously existing art is not just the product of historical marketing? Sounds like you need to read some bourdieu friend
>>885349
>so you're approaching the corner with your car without actually seeing either a corner or a car?
The game knows or understands nothing about human vision, as blindfold speedruns show.
>the inputs are meaningless if you don't know what you're doing
The game will produce an outcome, or lack thereof, from whatever inputs it receives, it could be a toddler sucking on the controller for all it knows. We're gonna wait some more time before games have some concept of meaning.
>not something on which one can judge video games ... by the fact that they all feature inputs of some sort
I just gave you an example where I don't need the brake pedal to get good lap times in a most particular game: >>885347 You can definitely judge the game on that one.
Since gameplay is different between games, it allows you to compare different driving physics as this guy does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjan7JeBtWo
>>885376
like i said, there is more to video games than gameplay
>>885368
Abstract art was made precisley because it was new, interesting and experimental. Isn't your "major culture change" precisely about coming back to realistic art?
>>885368
the funny thing is the renaissance was heavily business-based where the patrons had the biggest say in how a work was created, its subject, its materials, etc. the model we have now is the studios are making products for a wide audience because that's where the patronage is. also the renaissance model was workshop-based as is the video game industry. the renaissance is still going and it's the problem.
>>885376
I think this ludological approach is a dead end, though, because inevitably you have to start talking about the meaning of gameplay, which opens you up to other avenues of enquiry
>>885383
>there is more
So much more it can distract from talking about the signature feature of the medium. Is it strange I would like the game judged as a game more than as a movie?
>>885389
>dead end
>inevitably
I look at the literature on chess strategy and I can't see the dead end. Same with the Age of Empires 2 community. Good games get far.
>>885375
If we are speaking of historical art, a lot if it was either commissioned, sponsored, or discovered post-humorously, no? I'll admit to not being extremely knowledgeable on art history.
I've no doubt that a lot of success was due to some form of marketing. It seems, though, that it was still a marketing of genuine talent in a lot of cases.
I'd argue that mass media has made it much simpler to sell artistic "snake oil" through brute force marketing and exposure.
To be fair, I'm mostly referring to video games. I'd say the same could be said for film though. I really don't know enough to speak about other mediums with complete confidence.
>>885413
I think you're drawing a false dichotomy there. A game - especially aaa games nowadays - can have cinematic influences, so it seems fair to include elements of cinematic analysis in it. This is basically how people came up with the term ludonarrative dissonance, in how a game's narrative conflicted with its ludological elements.
So, if a driving game's narrative of anti-speeding, for example, conflicted with its gameplay emphasising speed. A lot of war games have this problem because often an implicit assumption of gameplay is that it needs to be pleasurable, or held to some standard that exists that corresponds to gameplay, and this link isn't often conceptualised very well. So an antiwar game that still portrays warfare positively (in the sense that the game has "good gameplay") has ludonarrative dissonance.
I am not sure your particular analogy holds up very well, because there's a lot of implicit ideological assumptions in age of empires, etc, in how it contends with history, in ways that are not necessarily present with chess. It seems like you're concsiously limiting yourself (also games are patched etc)
>>885414
I'd suggest some reading friend. Start with Bourdieu's The Field of Cultural Production. But there's not really any such thing as artistic snake oil.
>>885425
>This is basically how people came up with the term ludonarrative dissonance, in how a game's narrative conflicted with its ludological elements.
Well, it doesn't sound like a gameplay-free analysis now, does it? More than gamepla- no, let's go back to gameplay.
It seems like you have to go back to the source whether you want it or not.
Here we see that gameplay is like the One of Plotinus, everything else is emanations (or more accurately, things built around it by the writing and art departments).
>if a driving game's narrative of anti-speeding
Well, that's a big if. Only on the track high speeds are legal. In NFS I've mostly played cops & robbers with cars.
>A lot of war games have this problem
And who decided it's a problem? What if ludonarrative dissonance was a source of fun? Do you not know comedy frequently deals with contradictions?
>So an antiwar game that still portrays warfare positively (in the sense that the game has "good gameplay")
Shooting people happens to be fun, it's even more fun if there are no bodybags, widows, orphans. And that damn smell. And the part where you can feel pain. And that other part where you can die. And that other part when you can't reload. And...
It's a "Platonic", glory-only, death-free war. If only we always fought like that...
>I am not sure your particular analogy holds up very well, because there's a lot of implicit ideological assumptions in age of empires, etc, in how it contends with history, in ways that are not necessarily present with chess. It seems like you're concsiously limiting yourself (also games are patched etc)
What the players talk about and keeps them busy is the gameplay. The patches and expansions are an attempt to increase the complexity, that's what the players care about, that's why they're not patching historical inaccuracies in the campaigns.
The dead end is questioning meanings. "It it wasn't fun, I wouldn't play and talk about gameplay all this damn time."
>>885479
I'm not arguing for a gameplay free analysis, though, just that a gameplay only analysis will only get you so far - and not very far at that, considering the quality of "gameplay" is itself invented (see Kirkpatrick, "constitutive tensions of the gaming field"). It's a false dichotomy between the two
It's a problem in so much the game's narrative themes conflict with what it expresses with its ludology. That tension can indeed be used fruitfully but I think I'm on safe ground in saying that it rarely is.
I really think you need to get your head out of the Greeks because your application of them is shaky at best. As soon as you make the claim "what keeps the players busy" you have to start talking about meaning because "fun" is value statement, not a universal truth. And no, fun isn't a Form.
>>885492
Look, you mentioned "good gameplay" as a way to portray warfare positively that would create a ludological dissonance.
Operation Flashpoint (just the first title) has excellent gameplay, but it happens to be quite anti-war in the writing, hence all the famous quotations against war.
Said excellent gameplay is an accurate simulation of armed conflict, which inevitably means that dying like an animal from any enemy you don't see and who fires from the farthest distance possible can be a common experience even for the pros. It's enough to reprogram your typical FPS fanboy into a cautious, fearful, hesitating creature. Additionally you don't respawn immediately in multiplayer and you can't savescum in single player, so death, as far as a videogame can conceivably allow, is not cheap. Dying sucks, and every son of a bitch with a rifle can cause it, and you want to avoid it, and you'll think twice before attempting certain things IRL.
Ludological consonance at its finest.
>"fun" is value statement, not a universal truth
Anon, it's an aesthetic experience, nobody wants to talk about aesthetics anyway. Look at how much is written on "what is fun" or "what's beautiful" and compare it to "what's right" or "what's true."
>And no, fun isn't a Form.
Plato would probably not agree, but the virtual world might as well be the one outside of his Cave.
When you look at the Columbine incident you read things like:
>At this point, several witnesses later said they heard Harris and Klebold comment that they no longer found a thrill in shooting their victims. Klebold was quoted as saying, "Maybe we should start knifing people, that might be more fun.
What if I told you the Demiurge fucked up so bad even shooting people can manage to be BORING, in this fallen world? But this isn't the case in videogames...
>>885587
Yes, your point around operation flashpoint is well made - the iterative portion of a game can change the way a player plays it. But you could hardly say the same of call of duty, despite its ostensible anti war themes at times, nor the granddaddy of them all, bioshock. The point is, however, to accurately portray war as undesirable, you should make the player not want to continue playing the game - in the same way, for example, soldiers do not want to go into combat (eg ww1 etc). Various games have tried this, most notably recently spec ops the line.
There's been mountains of literature in games studies on what is "fun" and entire schools of criticism on what is beautiful, so I'm not sure what your point is there.
>>885388
difference between patronage and mass market capitalism is that one is democratic and the other one isn't
the pope or a prince is inevitably going to want more refined things compared to a million children and manchildren
>>884989
What are you even asking? Video games are another form of art. Philosophical concepts are used to analyze life itself, and forms of art are within life, so...
But really, will to power sums all of it up. All of art, and life too.
>>886180
>Video games are another form of art
[citation needed]
>>884989
Google simulations. Bodrijar actually descibed modern world including games.
>>886186
Alex Kierkegaard, a man smarter than you.
>>885611
>spec ops the line
No, I do not think the crappy gameplay is intentional, and find supporters of this intentionalism very unconvincing.
Rather, I'm far more convinced that the, let's call it 'post-modernist' approach to the story is a consequence of the studio's inability to come up with a gameplay that would be able to compete with contemporary FPSs, a survival strategy in which the writers came up with an ecological niche for the title's survival, based on a very realistic assessment of the available budget.
Speaking of which, I found the whole moral of the story grounded on a big fat fallacy.
They think I play an FPS to be a hero.
No, I play an FPS because shooting games are fun, they give you a way to experience the thrill of the hunt and the hunted from the safety of your room and civilized, peaceful society.
I don't need medals (medals don't kill, usually), a flag (unless it's a game of capture the flag), a country, or a cause. A lot of FPSs I played from id Software I played with the utmost ignorance over the story and conflict I was supposed to be involved in.
What I need is a weapon and some targets to click on.
Similarly, I don't play a sports game for the cup. I skip the victory animation once I've seen it the first time. I play the sports game because I like what happens in the sport or game portrayed therein, at the highest level of the competition, especially with me in charge over what's going on.
So when Spec Ops: The Line asks me if I "feel like a hero yet" or other idiocies, my reply is that I don't understand the question.
Since when were you under the impression I gave a shit about being a hero in the first place?
>There's been mountains of literature in games studies on what is "fun" and entire schools of criticism on what is beautiful, so I'm not sure what your point is there.
That the players talk about the gameplay and not those things because nobody cares. Aesthetics are hard to sell.
>>885725
"More refined things" like what? Harder abs on that stone cold David? Or a cock sculpted just right that it is still coverable by a fig leaf while an impressive bulge remains?
All after commissioning the n-teenth fucking personal or family portrait, of course.
Why in the hell would a patron have any idea on how to develop good taste? They're no better than the mass market, if they're offered something refined they may admit it's pretty nice but otherwise more tits 'n' ass will do them just fine thank you please.
>>884989
That's the periodic table you fucking retard, stop trying to apply more important things to /v/.
>>885288
I see you've been to GDC this year
