What are some events in history where good, average people where persuaded to do evil deeds?
>the holocaust
>slavery
>>884103
It's generally advised to not include moral judgement when discussing history.
>>884103
The holocaust is an expensive lie.
>good
>bad
>evil
Sounds pretty spooky mate. Mind elaborating?
>>884103
People have innate mechanisms for constructing meaning. Notions of good and bad are products of these, in response to the environment.
Nature is a crummy factory though, and not all machines come out the same.
>>884119
>evil deeds
generally uncivilized behavior that shocks the conscious I guess.
>>884103
people are inherently good, any and all evil done by man can be attributed to psychological trauma, mental illness, poverty, and ignorance.
>evil
>>884119
>that pic
God I love leftypol
The Donner party
>Group crossing the rockys
>weather traps them
>turn to canabalism
>>884135
There too creates the problem of defining "uncivilized." It's a relative term largely defined by the orientation and background of the observer rather than objective fact of the event.
Take for example something like cannibalism: we think it's a crime against nature. Some cultural backgrounds are okay with it as common practice however. Under what conditions does it happen? How widespread? Is it done out of desperation? (some people including myself would be fine with it under those circumstances) Pragmatically speaking, the cannibals aren't objectively wrong: it's a horrific waste to let all that meat go to waste, especially if the person in question didn't die from infectious disease.
Neither.
Humans have inherent capacity for both.
>>884177
Then an event that shocks the general conscience.
>>884159
You surely aren't implying that was a solely morals based issue. It's fucking common as hell for people to resort to cannibalism for survival in these situations.
Obviously there is a moral component, but citing it as an example of bad morals is fucking ludicrous.
>>884212
Cannibalism in order to survive is necessary, but regardless it is forcing normal people to do an extremely taboo act that shocks the conscience. I'm not citing it as an example of bad morals, Im citing it as an example of people persuaded to something horrible to ensure their survival.
>>884103
People naturally work in their own self-interest. When an intelligent group of people gets together to form a civilization they know instinctively or indirectly that it will ultimately benefit them.
>what about herd mentality?
Herd mentality is a complex extension of self-interest even though it may appear completely different. People defend close friends/family/their nation with their life in the hopes that if they survive the other person would do the same to them. In which case it's a mutually beneficial relationship with high risk and high reward. This isn't a completely conscious decision by the individual and is mostly a survival-impulse masked with a guise of emotions.
>holocaust
Soviet lie, about 500,000-600,000 Jews died of starvation and Syphilis. It's impossible to burn 6,000,000 million Jews and there's not enough mass graves to prove the figure even remotely right. Anyway your beliefs about it and my beliefs are irrelevant to this post.
>slavery
Slavery was the only thing supporting civilizations before the industrial era. The Roman Empire's population was 40% slaves (of some form), and America was catapulted to an agricultural superpower with plantation slaves. Saying slavery is bad is saying that past civilization, modernization, and development is bad.
Besides the only reason people dislike slavery now is because it doesn't benefit us directly anymore. You think the Romans or early Americans had a moral crisis when international trade was booming and standard of living was increasingly rapidly? Nobody cared at the time because in order to sustain a technologically/economically growing country you needed slave labor. To not have slave labor would be economic suicide.
PART 1 OF 2
>>884300
The event that completely changed all this and made slavery unfashionable was the industrial revolution. Now production could rapidly be increased with the use of (barely) educated workers rather than slaves. The workers worked for low wages anyway and they were more easy to handle in a city than slaves.
Also isn't it strange that the first post industrial revolution country, Britain, was also the first western country to ban/restrict slavery? Slavery wasn't magically considered morally bad, it was rendered obsolete.
America was different however. It relied on agricultural exports for the majority of trade in the south, and in the north artisans and ship-makers dominated the economy. This specialized labor in the north would eventually make it a prime location for an industrial economy. As time continued the two regional areas (north and south) became economic opposites, the north was already reaping some of the benefits of an industrial society, but the south was still dependent on slave labor for agricultural output. Eventually a moral "awakening" occurred in the North as slaves were rendered more and more obsolete.
Later the two regional areas warred with each other, and the north tried to enforce its will onto the completely different south for economic, moral, or political reasons. You know the rest of the story.
If you think this explanation is edgy, then just remind yourself there's hundreds of thousands of Chinese labors working ridiculous hours in cheap mineral mines, steel factories, production lines, and sweatshops to give you every technological luxury at your disposal. Don't think you're morally superior to past peoples, you're just as self-interested and morally inconsistent as they were.
PART 2 OF 3 (whoops)
>>884302
>morality
Anyway bottom line is this: morality is self interest based on survival instinct. If anybody says anything else they're simply romanticizing the characteristics of humanity to sedate their rapidly increasing nihilism. If you want to build a civilization then you have to coordinate self-interest. What this means is that you have to make sure every party involved in a civilization is gaining something. If you don't ensure that then societal infighting will occur and eventually disintegrate a nation/civilization.
PART 3 OF 3
>>884300
>It's impossible to burn 6,000,000 million Jews
Good thing no one claims that.
Bumping because good question.
>>884330
>Stirner
>Marxist
Pick one.
>>884116
Bumping for solidarity.
Here's a good documentary on the subject. ~1hr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruD4I4f5LkQ
Here's another documentary about it, made by an ethnic Jew. 1hr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQjNs-Ght8s
Here's a sapient 5min clip about it because internet attention span
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9BuXe2RM
Here's a proxy to view these videos with, in case your governments have decided this information is too dangerous for you to see (because holocaust denial is already accepted with sympathy in the general public, and so most people are just one internet video away from becoming a murderous nazi, so it represents a huge threat to society and needs to be forcibly censored, because it's all a bunch of absurd bullshit that is obviously motivated only by violent hatred and nothing else...)
https://www.proxfree.com/youtube-proxy.php
Seriously though, WWII history is absolute bullshit. Any moron who can suspend his convictions on the subject for two minutes can see through the story.
What if society is wrong? What if everyone in your society believes something only because other people, and important people, also believe it? This is not unprecedented in human history. How can we be so certain that scientific inquiry would overcome the political and academic clout of modern states, if it really came right down to it?
>>884330
His biggest Critic was the Co founder of Marxism, Engels
>>884337
>Good thing no one claims that.
Hmm, interesting. I guess the numbers were changed somewhere along the line. Maybe they overestimated a little bit.
But I wonder what else about the holocaust narrative might also be untrue?
>>884330
/his/ expects you to know at least some basic things anon. Please leave.
>>885503
>What if society is wrong?
>What if everyone in your society believes something only because other people, and important people, also believe it?
>How can we be so certain that scientific inquiry would overcome the political and academic clout of modern states, if it really came right down to it?
Uh-huh. Supposing you're right, what difference does it make anyway? What are you going to do about it, anon?
>the holocaust
>slavery
Neither of those things are examples of regular, average people doing evil deeds.
>>884300
>Soviet lie, about 500,000-600,000 Jews died of starvation and Syphilis.
Before he went into quiet retirement, David Irving conceded that there was evidence that some general (acting against Hitler's explicit orders, mind you) massacred somewhere around 100,000 Jews, to save dwindling resources for Germans, or something. I forget.
But yea. All in all the holocaust kind of didn't happen. The gas chambers thing is a compete lie.
Man is innately fearful.
>>885511
the burning and gassing was one part of the holocaust you illiterate polscapee
educate yourself subhuman trash
>>885515
>what difference does it make anyway?
The entire concept of racialism in Europe and America, Germany's entire political landscape and national choices about the future of their people, is predicated on something that didn't happen.
If for nothing else, Germans deserve to be freed from the shame that they have been unjustly burdened with. At the very least, the financial exploitation of Germans by Jews needs to be stopped and remediated.
We are in the rabbit hole so deep that people will actually make statements like
>Well, even if it didn't happen, it doesn't matter because everything is the same either way.
Incredible stuff, really. The sheer credulity of that mindset.
>Truth doesn't matter. It's what we believe that counts, and what we believe is right either way, even if it's not true.
>>885541
>The entire concept of racialism in Europe and America, Germany's entire political landscape and national choices about the future of their people, is predicated on something that didn't happen.
but it did happen
:3
>>885552
>but it did happen
What makes you so sure?
>>885503
>How can we be so certain that scientific inquiry would overcome the political and academic clout of modern states, if it really came right down to it?
What makes you think scientific inquiry is worth a rat's ass in the first place?
Stop worshiping false/dead gods.
>>885553
logic
>>885554
>What makes you think scientific inquiry is worth a rat's ass in the first place?
Most people are absolutely convinced that "the scientists of society" have looked into the holocaust in detail and are all 100% certain (except for a small number of insane people motivated by irrational hatred) that there is zero question that 6,000,000+ jews were systematically murdered in gas chambers, then cremated, by Nazi Germany under Hitler's orders.
>>885561
Except no. Not at all. The Holocaust isn't about jews who were gassed in gas chambers; It's everything from starvation in ghettos, to mass executions, to gas chambers. And it's not even only jews. It's everyone the nazis deemed unfit to live, including homos, mentally ill, gypsies, and communists.
>>885557
I've yet to be convinced you have any logical ability at all, given our conversation so far.
>>885569
Umm, okay?
I was answering your question, and nothing I said was untrue.
Whether or not you like it, in the US, we are educated that WWII = Nazis = Holocaust = 6,000,000 jews in gas chambers.
>>885570
That's not my problem.
>>885576
You had a very poor education, I suspect you attended a poorly funded school district.
>>885541
>Incredible stuff, really. The sheer credulity of that mindset.
I didn't ask for a "wow, just wow, I don't even" type response. I asked what you're going to do about it. What difference does it make? Will whining about it on a Taiwanese basket weaving forum save Germany from the Muslim hoardes? Does it improve your life in some way?
>>885576
You didn't answer my question senpai. And what you said -was- untrie. Six million jews died over all. Your education really is shit if you learned that world war two equals six million gassed jews.
It's all subjective, what's the point?
>>885503
/pol/ pls
>>885583
>I didn't ask for a "wow, just wow, I don't even" type response.
And the bulk of my post was not that.
>I asked what you're going to do about it.
You're insistently avoiding the actual subject and making it a personal issue. Why? "What would I do if it really didn't happen" is kind of irrelevant. The question is "did it happen or not?" That seems to be the question you both don't want to ask, or have answered.
>What difference does it make?
You already asked this exact question already, and I answered it.
>Will whining about it on a Taiwanese basket weaving forum save Germany from the Muslim hoardes?
I am only one person acting alone in my free time, and I'm not whining. You are most definitely whining. And yes, if Germans were able to access and distribute this information freely without fear of imprisonment, that would be a big step forward, probably. The fastest way to make that happen is one-on-one efforts like this on the internet, probably.
>Does it improve your life in some way?
I find it extremely arousing, yes. Just kidding. Again, this is totally irrelevant. Stop avoiding the issue with tangential, personal inquiries. You're just grasping for whatever you can find to paint me as a bad person. I'm sorry, but you're just not thinking clearly. Please investigate the conspiracy theory in detail, and don't let emotions get in the way of your assessment.
Is there weight to these accusations about the holocaust, or is it all some huge conspiracy fabricated by delusional maniacs?
>>885595
>Six million jews died over all.
1,000,000 is probably the upper extreme of the number of jews who died, if that.
The exact number is not known, because investigations into the subject is heavily stymied for obvious reasons. It was probably much less than 1,000, 000. And there was no genocidal gassing campaign. Literally zero reasonable evidence for human gassings, except the word of a bunch of Jewish survivors who materialized after the war with often absurd and cockamamie claims that can not be proven otherwise, and that are counter indicated by historical and physical evidence, as well as other eyewitnesses.
>>885582
Richest school district in my city fampai
>>885617
It was actually just 5 guys and they were all nazi. Holocaust was meant to kill nazis since hitler was secret zionist agent and probably didn't exit irl
But you don't know about it because research on this topic is forbidden
>>885617
it was actually just an american flipping its cart on the way to walmart
>>885603
You misunderstand me. I'm not calling you a bad person. In fact we probably agree on a lot. I just think you're wasting your time on this topic.
Denying the holocaust makes absolutely no difference to the reality of the situation in Europe today and in fact you're only discrediting your other, far more important, aims when you engage in it. Don't let yourself be marked as an extremist nut if you want to win people over and make an actual difference.
>>885645
>research on this topic is forbidden
It is illegal in most of Europe to even say "there were no human gassings," let alone study it as a scientist or historian.
Many formerly regarded scientists and historians were sued and jailed for attempting to do just that.
I'm trying to keep the discussion polite and serious, here. I believe in this conspiracy genuinely, and so feel like the truth and facts are on my side.
>>885659
I suppose I have to agree with the essence of what you're saying.
It is extremely, extremely difficult to persuade people to divorce themselves from their long held beliefs. It is much easier to persuade people on issues that they're already sympathetic for, and so this is more profitable in the long run.
However, I still do think there is some value in beating this drum, so long as, in doing so, I demonstrate that you can be a holocaust denier without being either a vitriolic racist or an illiterate moron. That alone has a tangible impact.
