Is post-scarcity an economic topic, or a philosophical one? Does it make sense to say that there is a post-scarcity economy, because economic phenomenon itself emerges from scarcity?
It's a physics topic.
It can't exist.
>>880098
>Does it make sense to say that there is a post-scarcity economy, because economic phenomenon itself emerges from scarcity?
No it doesn't, it emerges from the creation of value. We already live in an effectively "post-scarcity" society, when was the last time anyone starved to death, and yet the economy is bigger than ever.
tl;dr- wants > needs
>>880098
>Is post-scarcity an economic topic, or a philosophical one?
I would say more of a philosophical one. Economics is the study of scarce resources so if you stop scarcity, you kind of stop economics.
>Does it make sense to say that there is a post-scarcity economy, because economic phenomenon itself emerges from scarcity?
It doesn't make sense.
What about digital goods?
>>880098
Define "scarcity."
Most people mean economic scarcity against normative desires, which can be solved normatively. (Primitivism) Or ontologically. (Buddhism) Or by recohering freedom as the social limits of desire in mutual self-expression. (Marx as a utopian Humanist)
>>880112
I wouldn't say digital goods have 'zero' marginal cost, just a very low marginal cost. Digital goods are still limited by hardware capibillities. For example, if hentai had zero marginal cost, I would have a lot more of it than the 50 GB I have on my hard drive.
>>880177
Your time isn't marginal to hentai mate.
In the absence of the scarcity of resources, there arises an economy of power and influence.
>>880261
You're thinking one conceptual level too low, but yes, in a sense.
>>880275
Celebrities exist within the circulation of the value form in an expanded reproduction, they're a petit-bourgeois aristocracy (cf: labour aristocracy).
The courts of Louis XIV-XVI had definitive state functions in the castration of the nobility in the war between the crown and nobility. They also existed very clearly as the consumption of feudal surplus.
So I think I'm thinking on exactly the right conceptual level. I think you're obscuring the continuity of the relations of production and extraction of surplus behind the promotion of a lower order of conceptual analysis inappropriately to a higher level.
ymmv.
>post-scarcity
>>880283
I was talking about the Veblen goods thing.
post-scarcity economy is ontologically impossible because we live in a world with finite resources
>>880108
>when was the last time anyone starved to death
Earlier today.
>>880340
I don't know if you've properly inspected yourself phenomenologically but try Buddha on the limits of desirousness to transform external reality.
>>880348
Oh but today famines aren't due to environmental factors but solely due to class society.
FAMINES HAVE NEVER BEEN ENVIRONMENTAL
>>880340
The fact that resources are finite is not, in itself, any proof that they are scarce.
>>880454
>FAMINES HAVE NEVER BEEN ENVIRONMENTAL
>NEVER BEEN ENVIRONMENTAL
>NEVER
Nigga what?
>>880463
Corn is capable of storage for more than 7 years.
If you don't know what corn is, check the /lit/ meme.
Famines didn't exist in gatherer societies for a number of reasons to do with the absence of class society and traditional regulation of excess mouthes.
>>880475
Yea I know what roman 'corn' is.
>It is not clear why the Ancestral Puebloans left their established homes in the 12th and 13th centuries. Factors examined and discussed include global or regional climate change, prolonged periods of drought, cyclical periods of topsoil erosion, environmental degradation, de-forestation, hostility from new arrivals, religious or cultural change, and influence from Mesoamerican cultures. Many of these possibilities are supported by archaeological evidence.[21]
>Current scholarly opinion holds that the Ancestral Puebloans responded to pressure from Numic-speaking peoples moving onto the Colorado Plateau, as well as climate change that resulted in agricultural failures.
And these guys had real corn.
>>880503
>climate change that resulted in agricultural failures
Yes, that's a failure of class society. Read your Genesis, the bit with Joseph in.
>>880098
it has everything to do with philosophy, not econonics. post scarcity is a philsophical approach, and the principles that entail and lead to such a zeitgeist require maturity. a revolution of ideals. actual critical progress
post-scarcity is individual self-sufficiency while contributing to the common good. the only way humanity can reach such a model is if basic needs are met; ample food, shelter, CLEAN water, garments, security (by way of personal protection). each citizen and their families are made responsible for their own well-being. from there, true progress can and will arise. in any nation or culture, true progress is measured only by how readily basic living needs are met, without obstruction and with adequate quality. the family who has the means to provide for themselves (or whom has been taught/introduced these means by an overarching system in place), and left to govern themselves WILL continue in this fashion, will subsequently teach their progeny, will fight to preserve this way of life. in such a world, organic producer culture as opposed to synthetic consumer culture, art for art's sake, humanitarian efforts arises quite naturally. getting there is the only troublesome part, as well as groups who will inevitably seek to expand their domain.
permaculture is the future. economics is a game played by the disproportionately wealthy. post scarcity is, bottom line, a choice we can make if we survive long enough as a species on a dying planet.
>>880512
What about desertification of the Sahara, there were giraffe and hippo etc, around 6000 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saharan_rock_art
>>880519
Every class society produces social surpluses.
A social surplus is what?
Who chooses how to allocate the social surplus? Or what relations condition this allocation.
Any decision or conditioning of the allocation which fails to prevent famine is causative of that famine: the social surplus was allocated to ends other than famine prevention.
Please continue to cite theoretically irrelevant papers which discuss stressors, but not social organisation of food production.
>>880522
this tbqh
>>880549
>Read some economic history before you open your shit gob.
Yes, and unfortunately /lit/ doesn't cover this topic and /his/ does. Toughen the fuck up cunt.
>>880554
>What about the desertification of the Sahara?
I was just disputing that there have never been famines due to environmental factors (yes it's a bit hard to demonstrate for the palaeolithic), but I think you're naive if you think that hunter gatherers (while being better off than early farmers in this regard) never experienced famine due to environmental conditions.
>>880454
how about holodomor
>>880606
Holodomor wasn't deliberately caused, but went deliberately inadequately ameliorated. And yes, Gladys, the Soviet Union was a class society.
>>880598
"famine" doesn't apply in gatherer societies because of the absence of social surplus. You just kill more old and children.
>>880657
And once you've done that (assuming that this generalisation applies to all hunter gatherers) and the multi-decade drought continues...
>>880657
Just remembered a good example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory
>>880456
weirdo
>>880667
They die out. It isn't a famine. Stop universalising culturally specific terms.
>>880721
>culturally specific terms
>A famine is a widespread scarcity of food, caused by several factors including crop failure, population imbalance, or government policies. This phenomenon is usually accompanied or followed by regional malnutrition, starvation, epidemic, and increased mortality.
I'm a Biologyfag, the first line is the only thing I need to classify something as a famine.
>>880744
>dicdef
That's why you're a biology poofter instead of being part of the glorious discursive analysis master race.
>>880721
>people dying of hunger isn't a famine because if it is then anime can't be real
Get
real
Post-scarcity is possible in theory, but not in practice.
Theoretically, you can image a number of circumstances. I'll give you three.
1) Mankind achieves sufficient technological development and penetration, as well as human cooperation on a global scale, to completely reorganize the social, political, and economic structures and create some sort of techno-socialist utopia (forgive me). All are guaranteed housing. Crop production, storage, processing, and distribution are automated. Medical care is automated. Utilities like water and electricity are automated. All this automation is controlled by some sort of AI that takes input about demographics, demand, climate, sensor data, etc, and uses it for an algorithm intended to eliminate scarcity via control of automated means of production.
2) Mankind genetically engineers itself to require minimal amounts of food, shelter, and water, and to feel blissful and joyous walking the earth, enjoying the sensation of rain and wind and snow on its skin, living largely disease free, communing with nature and bringing art, philosophy, and culture to unprecedented heights. Perhaps the neural networks for hate and aggression are blocked.
3) Mankind develops and distributes a universal skillset pertaining to permaculture, subsistence farming, and sustainable building using renewable resources. People are able to provide food, shelter, water, and energy for their own families. Imagine the social structure of pre agricultural hunter gatherer groups, with the knowledge of today.
Obviously, none of these will actually work. Generally human nature is to have the biggest dick and dominate your neighbors, so no matter if you don't need to worry about food, shelter, or water, you elevate yourself by taking it from others. It's entirely based on social status for the sake of individual reproductive potential. Mates will flock to the individual with the resources. It's fucked up, but that's how it is. (to be continued)
>>880766
Nice rhetoric. Shitty argument
no such thing as post-scarcity, not everyone can have a platinum plated jacuzzi
>>880906
We trump our biological instincts all the time, at least on some superficial levels. Wearing condoms. Smoking. Bungie jumping. Granted, all of these things have fringe benefits that may ultimately benefit our genes' success in the long run, but that's not what we're discussing. The point is that we are still slaves to instincts and motives (for lack of better words). Also, the instincts and motives of billions of individuals are acting in an uncoordinated mess, adding to the problem.
"Scarcity" is an interesting word in itself. Synonyms: want, shortage, undersupply... While we're on the subject of transcending our biological desires, let's throw some Buddhist enlightenment in there.
Basically, the only way a global or even regional post-scarcity economy will occur will be in the light of an enlightened, transcendent culture (again, forgive me - I'm not explicitly referring to some Buddhist genetically enhanced nation state, merely any culture or society that is able to put aside selfishness for one second and cooperate for the greater good, and be able to protect that from meddling influences).
>>880906
Its only possible in theory in the absolute loosest sense of the word theory. No mathematical economic/econometric theories imply post-scarcity is possible.
>>880925
That's what I meant. It COOOOUUULD happen... but we have no idea how it actually would. If there were any legitimate economic models for it, we'd be trying. That said, just because we can't figure it out doesn't mean it's not solvable. It just means it's fucking difficult.
>>880906
>>880924
The paradigm might be adopted for space colonists. Like it or not, they have to trust each others, and not chimping out. It would kill all of them if they do that. Even with some deadly conflicts, the paradigm would still be upheld.
>>881051
Jante law my man
>>880340
No we don't. The universe is practically infinite
>>880098
The philosophical idea that post-scarcity society would be peaceful negates absolutely everything we know about human nature.
A great old war and the industrialization of the entire worlds economy would free up many resources for everyone to live a western standard of life
>post-scarcity
Who the fuck came up with that stupid shit? You can't imagine a world that's "post-scarcity"
