What do you think about the Churhc of the latter day saints, aka mormonism?
It's Christianity+ just fuck me up+ fantasy
Sounds like your usual tribalistic religion.
Christian american fan fiction.
Really nice people tho.
>>876979
>>876918
Mormon here. I'm a bit twisted in beliefs but meh
>Jesus visited America to meet Ancient Jews
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." -John 10:16. (that's in NT, not in the Book of Mormon if you're skeptical)
Either way it's a case of Devil's Proof.
>God marked dark-skinned people as a curse
More like 'God marked wicked people with a curse of darker skin'. It misses the point however, that the color of your skin has no bearing whether you are a believer of Christ or practicing iniquity.
>Kolob
Mormons interpret it more of a universe or plane of existence rather than a star or planet.
>becoming Gods
Apotheosis is a common theme in many religions. Though I can see it being strange in Christianity. The idea is that we are joint-heirs with Jesus Christ to our Father's glory (we treat the Holy Trinity as separate beings, but one in purpose) even before our life here on Earth. Go look up Plan of Salvation, can't really explain it much in detail.
Don't know the deal about Mormon underwear but I think prayer and faith protects you from harm.
>>877015
>Calling polandballs countryballs
Triggered!
>>876993
That's pre-1890 Mormonism. Keep up with the times, broster dude
>>876994
>"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." -John 10:16
>this somehow means Jesus went to visit people who:
>left no record of that visit in their legends and histories
>where somehow the only ones to get this special visit (sorry South East Asians and Subsaharan Africans, you just weren't special enough)
>that the Native Americans where seafarers with direct lineage to Mesopotamia that they still had after crossing the Atlantic despite being closer related to northeast Asians with that relation being so distant it's only slightly less inconsequential than any group northeast Asians are descended from and the fact those who first colonized the Americas came through the Bering Strait land bridge
>>877062
I don't think there was any indication that he only visited the Americas (afaik). The Gold Plates (where the BoM was translated from) were a written history of the Jewish people who went to Americas only. He could have visited Polynesia or even other planets for all we know.
Missionary work was to spread out in Eurasia anyway (work of Paul and co.) so it would make sense to only visit those who were isolated to hasten His work.
>>877084
But why is there no record of it in these native cultures? Why does no culture beyond the only one that does speak of this Jesus guy preaching about his death and rising from the dead?
>>876918
You can make literally any religion seem retarded in a picture like that.
And truly, they all are.
>>877015
>KC meme
The fuck is KC? Ain't polandball an /int/ meme?
It's the most painfully obvious false prophet con job that still exists on a big scale. The only reason it survived long enough to become legitimate is because they had people bent over the barrel. People passing through Salt Lake City aren't going to call the people they need to buy supplies from a bunch of heretic nut cases.
>>876994
>More like 'God marked wicked people with a curse of darker skin'. It misses the point however, that the color of your skin has no bearing whether you are a believer of Christ or practicing iniquity.
This belief doesn't strike you as dated? Along with the belief that a lost tribe of Israel existed in the Americas and the restrictions on Black people entering the priesthood, it seems to suggest that Mormonism is a creation of 19th-century man rather than divinely inspired.
>>877143
Weren't everyone passing through Salt lake city nonCatholics, to make matters even worse?
Heretics passing by Heretics,
>>877143
Seriously. Even if you don't buy any religion it seems like the founding teachers of religions like Buddhism, Sikhism, or Christianity were at least somewhat earnest in believing that they could see some higher truth. Joseph Smith and Bingham Young very obviously were taking advantage of their followers. Young was a polygamist who literally cucked like 30 men.
>>877163
>calling people subhumans
How Christlike of you! Isn't it weird how the churches that preach straight-up racism and prejudice are typically Protestant instead of Orthodox or Catholic? But I'm sure that's because they corrupted Jesus' teachings!
The LDS Church is a pretty top-tier christian sect to me. The people who worship that faith are a generally upright and moral people. Their belief system is a bit unique(if not outright blasphemous), but seems to generate a lot of good will in them. However, many of them are a bunch of normies. As long as they follow Jesus' teachings even if they believe in fan-fiction is alright by me.
Also, their hymnal music is pretty neat.
>>877163
I dunno. Bad economics, yeah, but the only the only people that really deserve to be exterminated are the protestant Germans,
>>876994
1. Read the CES letter.
2. Read the rebuttal to the CES letter.
3. Read the counter to the rebuttal to the CES letter.
4. Never be mormon again.
>>877198
three world wars, one holocaust, one rape of Belgium, one Genocidal war against the east, the only nation that really had a genocide going in Africa ((Belgium does not really count, as their colony was more of a company ran by the king seprated from the state)) and not to forget that they are forcing refugees down everyone else's throat.
Also, 16th centuary sack of Rome.
>>876993
My sides have eclipsed the sun.
>>877062
I believe that was referring to the people in Paradise, in the Bosom of Abraham, that Jesus freed when He resurrected and led to heaven.
>>876918
Demonstrably wrong about most verifiable claims they have.
>>877166
Joe Smith cucked at least 11.
>>877209
Their voting base was in Northern Germany, where the Protestants lived.
While they were Catholics, it wasn't the Catholic mass of people that supported them.
The Catholic Austrians didn't even want him as a soldier to begin with, not even Catholic Bavaria was that kind on him. He had to head to the Protestant North to make it big.
>Three?
I am counting the seven years wars as a world war.
>>877187
They are very nice people who follow a different gospel about a different Jesus, and are thus accursed.
>>877211
Yes, it is hilarious.
>>877217
Er, the claims are wrong, or the pic is wrong?
>>877201
Let me see if I understand you. The catholics in Germany, who were very wary of Hitler's Nazi party, were put under authority of Rome by Pius' Concordat with Hitler in '33. They thereafter went along with the Nazi party.
What did the "protestants" in Germany do, again?
>>877233
I'm still chuckling.
>>877233
Only german ones.
>>877237
Actually vote for him?
>Although Hitler's political career began in Munich, in the elections of 1928 to November 1932 the NSDAP won a higher share of the vote in Protestant than in Catholic Germany. In the Catholic Rhineland and Bavaria (apart from Protestant Franconia) it polled disproportionately badly. In fact in July 1932 the Nazi share of the vote was almost twice as high in Protestant as in Catholic areas. The inability, of Nazis to attract the Catholic vote was demonstrated by the stable support for the Catholic Centre Party, which regularly gained between 11.8 and 12.5 per cent between 1928, and November 1932; and by that of its sister confessional party, the Bavarian People's Party (BVP), which stayed firm at around 3 per cent in those same elections.
>>877248
'32 is before '33, yes?
>>877148
I view them as dated, yes. Along with polygamy and a bunch of others that were 'excused'. Even if other LDS people excuse those beliefs, I think they're pretty much the prejudices of people from that period getting mixed with trying to understand the fundamentals (fundamentals being the Book of Mormon). I'm not saying I don't believe in Joseph Smith, but the lot of them are just men.
>>877248
I believe this is from your source, yes?
The inability, of Nazis to attract the Catholic vote was demonstrated by the stable support for the Catholic Centre Party, which regularly gained between 11.8 and 12.5 per cent between 1928, and November 1932; and by that of its sister confessional party, the Bavarian People's Party (BVP), which stayed firm at around 3 per cent in those same elections.
Where do you think those catholic votes went after the Concordat was signed in '33?
>>876979
>Really nice people tho.
A lot of times they aren't, though. They do a good job of keeping public image up, but I grew up around a lot of Mormons, and they have the same kind of issues that everyone else has. Plus, some specific ones caused by the church being so image focused. When I was a teenager, my Mormon friends would tell me stories about how their parents and the church leaders would basically bully them into doing things that they were supposed to do as Mormons. For example, the mission trip; I have a few friends who spent thousands of dollars and put their lives of hold to do something they didn't want to do because it was expected of them and they didn't want to face with the consequences of not doing it.There's also a pretty strong distrust of non-Mormons among the church, and I had plenty of people be assholes to me for not converting. In a lot of ways, it's a culture that's dictated by a lot of serious social pressures to act a certain way.
This stuff is pretty true for other groups as well, but it's not like Mormons are good people just because they're Mormons. They know how to act in public and have a good PR department.
>>877252
Yes, though it do show a pretty big trend, which I do find rather unlikely that it just died down in only a year. Do you have anything showing that the Germans suddenly began to rush en masse to the Nazi party after the signing of that concordat?
>>877268
I've noticed in So. Cal. a lot of the Mormons are white men married to island girls, like from Fiji, or Samoa, or the Philippines.
>>877270
And tell me, why would a lot of Catholic go voting for the Nazis just because they signed that concordat?
The threaty was about the Nazis not persecuting the Church, with the Catholics Clerics refraining from Political work which they failed to do, not about the Catholics supporting the party.
>>877230
Claims of the mormon church regarding america which can actually be verified.
It simply isn't Christianity, it might as well be a cult. Same tier as Scientology.
>>877237
Mind if I ask why you are putting "" for Protestants?
>>877270
Pretty sure Hitler got 99% of the vote in '36.
>>877316
Rome attempts to put herself at the center of the universe, by calling herself the Eternal City, and by designating everyone in Christendom who disagrees with her in terms centered around her: schismatics and protestants.
I find it vile. I have never met anyone who introduced themselves as a "protestant".
>>877324
I am not sure if you can fully trust a vote that was held when the Nazis were in full force.
Mormons are not christian, they believe in several gods.
>>877336
I wouldn't trust it to be "fair", but there were over 45,000,000 votes. I'm not sure how that's meaningless.
>>877327
I suppose that was meant as an argument for why the Catholics began to support the Nazis.
So because that the Catholics did start voting for the Nazis after a period that saw almost every German for the Nazis I am supposed to believe it was especially because of that Concordat?
>>877349
How was that even relevant to my original question though?
If it's true it mean that the true Christians also began to support HItler, right?
>>877350
I believe so, yes. After all, Germany, Italy, and Japan were the axis powers, and the pope held sway over two of the three, and was virulently anti-semetic.
>>877268
We tend to be pretty much the same as any other Christian religion individualistically. There will always be all sorts.
>>877356
How did the Pope hold a sway over Hitler and Mussolini?
He did hold a sway over the popular support for them, but how did he directly hold a sway over Mussolini and Hitler?
I mean, it's not like they ever changed their planes due to somethign they said
>>877357
>any other Christian religion
This doesn't really work for me.
>>877368
Concordat with Mussolini in '29 and Concordat with Hitler in '33.
>>877377
in the 29 one the Pope asked Mussolini to give him some land and money, the 33 one was about respecting the Catholic's religious freedom.
The pope had to offer Mussolini things himself to get any of this.
How is that holding them under "his sway"?
Or am I wrong in thinking "Under his sway" means he got any real power over them?
Are catholics so incompetent they cant even keep their shitposting in their own threads?
>>876918
Mormons are cool, but they believe in weird stuff.
Brigham Young once thought people lived on the moon: Quakers had colonies there.
>>877387
The same way popes of old used to put the crowns on the heads of kings.
Google "Letter to a CES director"
It was written by a smart Mormon who looked too close and picked the church and his own faith in it apart.
He touches only slightly on Joseph Smith joining Freemasonry before he had his revelations, but that may be the source of the LDS church. Maybe them Builders did the math and intentionally engineered Mormonism as an organic American religion to rival Islam in the future...maybe it's the antithesis to Muhammed's thesis.
>>877399
Yes, and look.
Henry, directly crowned by the pope, declared
an antipope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope_Clement_III
Charle's the great's troops sacked Rome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(1527)
France allied with the Vatican's enemy, the Ottomans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance
Is that what you call power?
>>877407
It is truly an astonishing piece of research, very well documented, and very damning to the Mormons. They're apparently hemorrhaging people because of it.
>>877411
Telling countries to go to war is pretty powerful stuff. I don't really feel like debating it though.
>>877418
Why not?
>>877419
Because people have an irrational faith in the catholic church that transcends reason.
>>877374
Would 'tend to be the same as every other society on earth' suffice?
>>877427
Please, whatwould you say if everyone refused to argue protestants becauseof jack chick?
>>877440
I'm not really into false equivalencies, either. Sorry.
>>877443
Jack Chick rules.
What about that the Jim Jones church? It honestly amazes how people willingly went to south america with an over the top minister to go praise Jesus by his definition in the 70's. He was the one that spawned the poisen Kool aid joke.
>>877487
And they killed a senator, right on film. They found a lot of things in Jonestown, but the one thing they didn't find was a bible. Jim Jones was another type of false messiah, rather similar to the Heaven's Gate fellow who cut off his own balls.
>>877184
The country with the highest IQ has 20% Protestants compared to 10% Catholics.
Lutheran>Catholic
>>877509
"I'll fight for you!"
The bigger the lie, the more likely someone will believe it to be true, as they would not themselves lie so voraciously.
>>876918
At this fantasy shit can be more intresting than normal christianity. both are kinda shitty tho.
>>876918
Mormons are based, they're telling Trump to go fuck himself.
one of my heroes was a mormon.
>>877018
Saved
>>877328
So what do you call Protestants then? Classification matters.
And both Catholics and Orthodox consider eachother mutually Schismatic. Plus what's wrong with declaring something schismatic or heretical?
>oh its X making yourself the sole arbiter of Truth
But if something is not truthful then it is not. There is only one truth. You can only know one truth. There are not many truths.
>>877161
Mormonism is far older than Scientology though.
>>876918
Don’t like it for both personal and ideological reasons
Personal (greentext for you, familia)
>be me past year
>am told that qt grill has interest in me
>yes.jpg
>date for some time
>tells me she is mormon
>I didn't know the giddy mormon-shite they forced into the faithfuls' heads
>"And my father is the president of a church." - or something like this
>well, I should have left her be and not mess with mormonisms, for I am not mormon
>heart screams for love and some of those nice lips
>shrug it off
>fast forward, I am her boyfriend
>learn they can only marry other mormons
>she wants me to be a mormon
>her father says he does not want us together if I am not a mormon
>sad inside, but that's ok
Best grill I ever had but her religion fucked our relationship
They say anyone can become a god.
If that is true, why is our god anything special? We can be like him after only 70-something years after all.
There are other gods, right? So ours is therefore not God for He is absolute and only one being. If there were more like Him the Universe would be kinda chaotic.
They also apply human morals and ethics to Him such as favouring the eldest son.
And He is changeless. The grill told me his laws change according to the changes of mankind. If He and His law are absolute why would it change?
"God is material. Having a body is a blessing." Oh, puh-leeeeease. Matter is changeable, subject to imperfections and is a nice thing to keep our souls suffering.
Underwears are something I cannot understand in their view.
That's it. Forgive me for any offences.
>>877504
Which means fuck all because Protestant nations generally have more money and they can simply import educated skilled workers, which most already do.
>>877188
>God shows no partiality
>>876918
>mormons can become gods in the afterlife
Strangely this is the only part that makes sense to me. Everyone would have their own personal heaven that they controlled completely, it's the only way to please everyone. So in that sense you would have to become a "god" if you went to heaven.
>>877188
Only in some ways.
God punishes that lady that insults Moses' darky wife.
Honestly, the Mormons are fucking pussies who are obsessed with keeping up appearances and being accepted by mainstream America. They've pretty much folded on every controversial stance they've taken:
>not allowing Black people into the priesthood
>polygamy
>recently putting out a press release stating that 'good mormons will get their own planets' was a 'misinterpretation'
And granted, those beliefs were all dogshit, but how can you take them seriously when they keep wavering?
>>877233
>the typical nazi was protestant, rural and a woman. Are you also prejudiced against rural German women?
how times have changed
>>877200
Tl:dr either.
>>879373
Utah's government is also insanely pro-refugee.
>>876918
>AtheistRepublic.com
>>876918
It's no more ridiculous than some other religions, and Mormons are generally decent people with good values.
9/10 religion, would fake-convert to for waifu and benefits if any lived anywhere near me.
>>877148
Ideas are not refuted by the passage of time.
>>880227
This tbqh senpai.
>>880227
No, they're not, but what I was getting at is that if someone publishes a holy book that he claims is an ancient text from centuries before him, with eternal relevance to the human condition, and it's filled with ideas that were basically fads of his day, then you should be skeptical.
>>880227
>And Jesus said: "I will return during your lifetime"
>Jesus did not return in their lifetimes
>The idea is refuted by this passage of time
Come on, son.
It's basically a really lazy reworking of the bible to excuse the violent appropriations in colonial America. It doesn't matter if you're into race war shit, it's still sloppy canon written by a con-artist.
It's also an aggressively proselytizing cult that intentionally goes to hinterlands the world around to erase indigenous beliefs before they can be recorded. I'm really not fond of that, as a professional historian. Anyone whose mission is to erase history before it can be written down over their fairytale beliefs are scum.
Oh and every Mormon I've ever met has been an inbred creep. The kind of people who are loudly pious but secretly tremendous hypocrites.
>>880504
>claims to be historian
>clearly biased
Guns, Germs, and Steel/10
>>880541
>historians cannot have personal biases
>I prefer my academics to be golems or robots, thanks
>>876994
How do you deal with the historical errors in that as well as in the book of Abraham that AS incorrectly translated?
What of the fact that they have actually manage to track down the books the BoM was plagiarized from?
Do questions like that even matter if it makes you happy?
>>880637
>how do you deal with historical errors
Please cite one so I can refute. Can't really think of any from the top of my head. Note that we believe that no translation or representation of the Bible (apocryphal included) in modern times is perfectly accurate or unaltered but we do use what we think is the most relatively accurate and inspired added with re-translations. (LDSKJV)
>fact that they have actually manage to track down the books... was plagiarized from
It's not really a fact. If anything, I believe it to be word of mouth that was passed from Natives to local folk and just correlate with the ideas Joseph had that time.
>Do questions like that even matter if it makes you happy?
What do you mean by this?
By what I can understand, I can answer that yes, it's important to have questions like those to test your faith and not just blindly follow. Of course there would still be happiness from ignorance, but overcoming those would prove satisfaction for one with doubts.
Clash of ideal (faith) vs. real and all that.
>>880504
>Oh and every Mormon I've ever met has been an inbred creep. The kind of people who are loudly pious but secretly tremendous hypocrites.
what does this (if its even true) have to do with mormonism itself?
there's plenty of creeps in every religion.
>>876918
Bugfuck crazy.
>>880034
NEED 'MO IMMIGRANTS 'FO DEM CONVERSIONS
>>881159
>Please cite one so I can refute.
Page 8
http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf
Mainly its to do with technology (such as steel and chariots), and animials that did not exist in pre Columbian America combined with there being literally no evidence of the civilisations it discusses archeologically or genetically- indeed this is something even the Church has wavered on.
>Note that we believe that no translation or representation of the Bible (apocryphal included) in modern times is perfectly accurate or unaltered but we do use what we think is the most relatively accurate and inspired added with re-translations. (LDSKJV)
Not true you wont find any anachronisms in the bible or the Koran, and likewise all are more archeologically sound.
Not only that but every instance of there being a primary source of Smiths Translations like with the book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates Smith either got suckered in by forgeries or translated and filled in wholly incorrect messages. That same link has a good section on it.
>It's not really a fact. If anything, I believe it to be word of mouth that was passed from Natives to local folk and just correlate with the ideas Joseph had that time.
Not true we literally have block quotes from other books turning up in the Book of Mormon as well as errors from the KJV bible that was unique to Smiths time.
Page 16-17 to see a specific example from that link. A simmilar case has been seen when it comes to names from a dictionary of his time. This isnt themes and ideas but literal copy past work.
>What do you mean by this?
Then what errors would be necessary for you not to believe it was a divinely inspired text?
It spawned a good musical, which is more than other religions did desu
>>881224
In general though look through that document in
http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf
or prehaps this video if you prefere to listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGasQ7j_ZI
When you look at the discrepencies in the texts combined with Smiths and Youngs lifes and ministries as well as the function of the church in changing doctrine you start to see a picture that is more in line with of Scientology rather than say Christianity.
Yes Smith and Hubbard despite all of the issues above could be correct but it seems quite unlikely does it not? Is Hubbard any more wrong in saying that billions of years ago the height of Galatic civilisation was the same as 1950s america than Smith was in saying that native americans were just like the peoples of levant?
>Smith starts practicing plural marriage years before he said God gave him authority to do so
>second wife was taken without consent of the first meaning even by LDS stances it was adultery
>He took wives who were married to other men, also making it adultery
>when this information got to the local press he ordered his followers to destroy the paper and journalists
Then the next prophet declared that God was Adam, it was taught as doctrine, referenced in the temple ceremony, and preached at conference. But it's not doctrine now because reasons.
>calls itself the one true church
>>881260
>second wife was taken without consent of the first meaning even by LDS stances it was adultery
Actually that wasnt the issue, the wife only has to be given the chance to consent or not it doesnt matter what answer she gives. The issue was that he married already married women which was the no no although on at least one of those occasions he had to do it because he was threatened with destruciton by an angel if he didnt.
>>881269
Except he didn't announce to his followers that plural marriage was okay till 1841, he was fucking Alger in the barn in 1835. Which is why Emma kicked her out when she found out. They didn't perform any ceremony, Smith didn't inform his wife, and followers like Harris and Cowdery didn't think t was a marriage be t rather a filthy affair.
>>881295
yeah Im a little dodgy with exact dates
Is the Mormons are nice thing a meme, or does it only apply to Mormons in Utah? I've met Mormons from all over the place and all of them were either smug cunts or outright violent psychos.
>>881523
Where i live they are occasionally being considered being put on the illigal religion list since they punish people who abandon their faith. Which is illigal here.
>>881548
Yeah, they're arguably worse than Scientologists when it comes to fucked up and nonsensical bullshit, including how and why they punish people.
>>881548
>illegal religion list
What fifth world hell do you live in?
>>877027
Pre-1890 was mad scary, yo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
I had a mormon friend when i was young. We used to play Age of Empires and Heroes of Might and Magic all day and read fantasy novels. I miss him
>>878614
I call "Protestants" an imaginary bugaboo to make Rome feel like she's the center of the universe.
There were born again Christians centuries before there were Romanists; there were Christians while there were Romanists; and there will be Christians forever in heaven, without Romanists.
>>879205
Mixed religious marriages rarely work out well for either family, but forced conversions aren't very deep either.
Keep improving yourself so that you can attract a better class of woman.
>>881159
Read the CES letter.
>>881251
That Joe Smith put in the same exact typographical errors found only in the 1769 KJV is brutal. Lazy plagiarist is lazy.
>>882318
You don't feel like a hypocrite for accusing the Catholics of being vile for not calling other people Christians when you do the exact same thing?
>>882318
I'm not even Catholic but you'd have to be mad to think that the Protestant version of Christianity is older than that of Catholics, even there is no historical basis for Rome having power over all other churches
HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE
ALL-AMERICAN PROPHET?
THE BLONDE-HAIRED
BLUE-EYED VOICE OF GOD
HE DIDN'T COME FROM THE MIDDLE EAST
LIKE THOSE OTHER HOLY MEN
NO, GOD'S FAVORITE PROPHET WAS
ALL-AMERICAN!
>>882360
now i want an image of joseph smith fucking a bald eagle with his head in Abraham Lincoln's hat where he's translating the golden plates with hot dog and hamburger seal stones
>>882318
>I call "Protestants" an imaginary bugaboo to make Rome feel like she's the center of the universe.
No dipshit, what do you call them?
What do they classify as?
Orthodoxy is not Catholic and Catholic is not Orthodoxy. Neither made up some term for eachother to feel like they are the center of the universe. These are the official names.
Protestantism is protest of Catholicsm. Hence it is right to call these people Protestants.
Hell, you could call Occupy Wall Street or the Freedom Riders "Protestantism" because they were protesting.
Again, want do you call Protestants?
>There were born again Christians centuries before there were Romanists; there were Christians while there were Romanists; and there will be Christians forever in heaven, without Romanists.
>Romanist
Funny how we don't use this word and even then consider Rome an arbitrary location. Reluctant as it would be, if the Vatican needed to transplant to, say, Santiago Chile, it would.
All Christians are "born-again." What you consider born-again Christians to be are American evangelical zealots. American Evangelicalism is not ancient. Methodism is not ancient. Baptist conventions are not ancient. Lutheranism is not ancient. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are ancient.
Any Christian sect who claims that they were around prior to 1517 and is not Catholic or Orthodox is historically illiterate and cries out against "Romanists" to try and secure some level of credibility. But it's all for naught.
>To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant
>John Henry Newman
>>882339
The Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.
That some Christians sin from time to time is known.
The two are dissimilar.
>>882346
Aye. What they did to Christianity is a crime against God, and one that He will repay.
>>882480
"Protestants" is a papist term to make Rome think she matters in Christendom.
>>882514
>The Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.
Where does it say WORD FOR WORD that this is the case? That modern Rome and modern Italy aren't any more valid whores? Or any of the countless other cities built on 7 hills like Moscow or Seattle?
>>882522
>"Protestants" is a papist term to make Rome think she matters in Christendom.
Catholicism does matter. They have over a billion adherents and regularly hold meetings with representatives from the other ancient churches, like the Eastern Orthodox Christians.
>>882522
No fuckstick, what. Are. They. Called.
Protestantism is not some "papist term" for it. It's the academic term that even Protestants use to define themselves.
In fact, I could say "papist" is just a term butthurt Protestants use to make themselves feel more legitimate despite them lacking all legitimacy as ancient.
And if Protestant"was some "Romanist" word made up to try and make it seem like the Catholic Church is all that matters and the arbitrary center of Christianity, why isn't pic related labeled a Protestant?
>>882523
In the bible.
>>882530
Catholics matter to Christendom like Muslims matter to Christendom like Jews matter to Christendom.
They have the opportunity to join, or to stay where they are, and perish.
>>882542
Santa's a protestant? I'll have to stop praying to him then...
>>882542
It's literally a term invented by papists, as "papist" is a derogatory term to define Catholics.
>>882551
Bad list, for sure. A lump of coal in the stocking.
>>882550
Except Catholics are recognized as a valid church by pretty much every other ancient church (Armenians, Copts, Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopians, etc..).
>>882556
Not by God though.
>>882559
So you believe that God, in his infinite wisdom, allowed all these phony churches to exist for over a thousand years, and true Christianity was only discovered near the close of the middle ages in Europe? That doesn't strike you as ridiculous?
>>882551
That's Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and all Rus'.
To claim he is Protestant due to his rejection of the Catholic Papacy is an insult as it is to declare him a "Romanist."
Orthodoxy puts these retarded Prot claims in their place. >>>/trash/
>>882556
Random atheist passer-by here, what's with the Catholic, Orthodox, etc. obsession with being an "ancient" church?
>>882566
To be fair, that's the same argument Hitchens would use to describe Christianity in general. How humanity existed for 100,000 years and only in the last couple thousand received Christ in a place that would mostly not keep very many records.
>>882553
Protestant isn't derogatory anymore than calling Wayne Gretzky "Canadian." Or Bernie Sanders "a Democrat Politician."
It's what they are. Protestant of Catholicism.
>>882573
It has to do with cladistics. From an evolutionary standpoint, if you look at the Catholic church and its similarity to other churches that date back to ancient times, and how different protestantism is from these churches, it lends credence to the claim that Protestantism is the one that drifted from the older version of Christianity and not the other way around.
>>882592
Ok then, that makes some sense. Thanks for your time in indulging my curiosity.
>>882573
Ever see that Protestant scream about how their non-denomination branch of evangelical preacher at "Free Redeemer Fellowship of Christ Church" next to the laundromat downtown preaches the same theology as the Apostles and early Christians of, to name a random year, 263 AD, even though if you, an athiest who doesn't give to shits about religion, compared these laundromat neighbor evangelical's beliefs with that of the men known as "Church Fathers" like Origen and Irenaus, you'd find that they are not saying the same things and that these old long dead guys were more in line with Catholic or Orthodox theology.
In effect, we care because we are being challenged by easily disprovable claims and as people who also have a deep respect of academics, we wish to disprove it.
It's like "WE WUZ KANGS N SHEET" in a way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Hyde#Family_life
I'm descended from this guy and one of his younger wives.
>>876918
>infinite space wives
i'm all for it.
>>882523
So, if the catholic Church calls the Protestants something because they think they got religious reasons to do so it's bad, but if you do it's good?
Can the Protestant and Catholic anons stop bashing eachother and start discussing mormonism please?
>>876918
>God marked dark-skinned people as a curse
As special variant of vitiligo... Why not? Seems legit.
>>882101
Guy's got one that dead-eyed serial killer look going on.
>>883216
It's not a religious reason. It's ontological.
They PROTEST, they are PROTESTant. They earned the title almost 5 centuries ago because they were PROTESTing. What do you assume "PROTESTant" to even mean if not "One who PROTESTS?" Protestant is to Protest as, say Combatant is to Combat or Practician is to Practice.
If it was just a word made up out of the blue like Frindle to describe and denounce dissenters, why is Patriach Kirill not called a Protestant?
>>883466
Because the Protestant Churches started as a protest against the Catholic Church in the way the Orthodox Church didn't do?
Besides, what else what we call them? If we call them Christians they will just be misstaken for Arians, Catholics and Orthodoxs as well as other sects, and what good name can you give for a splintered group of people where a good bunch thinks other parts of the group will go straight to hell because of the ways of their Church not being the right ones?
Instead of this Protestant Sperglord rage about being a heretic, can we just enjoy Mormon Jesus?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46PXaJxzuDE
To that Mormon poster can I get an answer on >>881224?
>>882318
>There were born again Christians centuries before there were Romanists
Literally the-Native-Americans-were-Jews tier. Only a fool could believe this.
>>883515
Jessus Disciplines all looks like Dwares.
>>883526
unrelated but the early church does remind me of the protestant reformation with tons of doctrinal disputes and splinter groups
>>883549
Didn't most of them think the others weren't going to get any salvation?
>>883549
With the Council of Nicea existing to put an end to it and solidify orthodoxy on the Nature of Christ among other things.
>>882566
Yes.
Just as God allows the devil to exist.
>>882589
Canuck. Socialist. Papist. Protestant. All derogatory.
>>882598
He lied to you. Christians before Rome perverted Christianity had nothing in common with Catholics.
>>882616
You count on Origen for your authenticity, and Origen is a known heretic.
>>883573
But Protestants may call themselves Protestants.
>>883271
Aside from posting the entire CES letter, there's really not much more to say. The CES letter methodically and verifiably demonstrates that the con man known as Joe Smith plagiarized all of his writings from writings of his time, and claimed it was from gold plates that nobody found in an ancient language nobody knew, and whose story changed in mutually exclusive ways over time.
The CES letter has devastated the Mormon church.
>>883466
Catholics protested the Catholic church.
Luther was a Catholic friar.
You people think you can change history by mob rule. It's ponderous.
>>883477
Nope. Christian churches have been around for almost 2000 years, and the catholic/orthodox only 1700.
Same bible, same Holy Spirit = same church body.
>>883526
Day of Pentecost, 32 AD, 3,000 men and an uncounted number of women and children became Christians, and started churches.
I'm starting to think you're not playing with a full deck.
>>883580
everyone is a heretic except those who have your specific view of God: you
>>883602
And what about the billions of people that aren't Protestants?
Should they just go along with calling you Christians, and you only?
Also, what if Arianism turns out to be the true version of Christianity?
>>883549
Exactly. Following God is a messy business from the outside. From the inside, it's awesome.
>>883554
RCC catechism says there is no salvation outside of the Roman church.
It's a cult.
>>883556
The nature of Christ was never up for debate.
>>883580
I like Origen :3
>>883613
So all of Christianity is a gigantic cult?
>>883592
I've never met one. Ever.
Me: What are you?
Them: Protestant.
Never ever ever, not once, not ever.
Baptist, Methodist, LDS, Church of Christ, Koinoa Fellowship, Pentecostal, etc., etc., etc.
"Protestant" is a word the papists use to pretend they matter.
They don't matter. They just murder people.
>>883609
>Arianism turns out to be the correct version of Christianity
I would laugh so hard when all you trinitarian christians join me in hell
>>883608
Even the Catholics declared Origen a heretic.
You will never find me posting anything heretical to the bible; but to the papists, I'm a heretic by virtue of not being a papist.
>>883627
And what exactly should you be called then?
Christian is out of debate, since the that secular people with nothing to do at all with Christianity won't agree to it, and they too needs something to call you.
>>883629
Faggot, rule never one, never laugh in hell.
gives the devil another hole to rape you through.
>>883609
I wasn't aware that a billion people were concerned with how to label religious people. I will just leave them to it.
Not everyone who says they're a christian is a christian. People like me test people who say they are christians, but are not. Most people on this board who say they are christians are not. The ones who are shine like the sun.
Arius contradicted the Word of God. There is no chance people who contradict the Word of God can be true.
Let God be true, and all men wrong.
>>883630
everyone's views on the bible differ in some way to someone elses thus everyone is a heretic to everyone else. that's all a heretic is: someone who disagrees with your personal views
>>883617
I do. God can tell time without a sun, moon, and stars. To say God cannot tell time without s aun, moon, and stars is to be a heretical fool, like Origen.
Bible says yom, morning and evening, day. It means yom, morning and evening, day.
>>883621
Not at all. Born again new creations in Christ Jesus are the body of Christ, what you would call Christianity.
Cults are exclusive; belong to us, or die.
Christianity says anyone can belong to Jesus, and anyone without Jesus dies.
>>883641
show me in the bible where it states that the Godhead is a trinity where all 3 parts are equal. in fact you'll find in the gospels that Jesus describes himself as subservient to the Father. but then again it's all equally horseshit
>>883629
Don't hold your breath.
>>883649
>Cults are exclusive; belong to us, or die.
>Christianity says anyone can belong to Jesus, and anyone without Jesus dies.
The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one
>>883649
Fortunlately enough, there have been a good amount of time since the Catholic Church actually killed anyone for leaving the faith or not being a Catholic, so I suppose they aren't a cult anymore?
>>883649
Paul's letters show the same dichotomy that you said belongs to cults: accept jesus or die
Great people.
Litterally who cares if their theological background is sound? That is so not what matters.
>>883632
The most descriptive term I can is a born again Christian. Most people would not understand "new creation in Christ Jesus". But that's exactly what Christian means. A permanent transformation from a spiritually dead human being into a spiritually living new creation; the old man passed away and all things are new.
Jesus said a man must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God, and that's the goal. That's the brass ring. That's the point of it all.
>>883645
So, all Darwinists go to hell?
>>883658
Well this thread isn't about people, it's specifically about the beliefs
>>883644
That's not true. A heretic must contradict something in the bible, not misunderstand it slightly, or not quite get it.
Nobody has a perfect understanding of the bible. Nobody.
But to take something simple, like Jesus is God, and say Jesus is not God, is heretical.
>>883651
Who said all parts of the trinity are equal? If all parts were equal, would they not be singular?
The Father sent the Son; He Who sends is greater than He Who is sent. Yet, the Father and Son are One. If you saw Jesus, you were seeing the Father.
Jesus created the universe.
>>883672
I have a feeling that you would consider a non-trinitarian a heretic. where have you derived the trinity from the bible?
>>883653
Anyone from any group can be saved, and there will be people in heaven from every group, every nation, every tribe, and every tongue.
You don't have to be a Southern Baptist to be saved, for example. That would be cult behavior.
>>883676
that's what was decided at the Council of Nicea
>>883655
They retain the "there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church", so no, they're still a cult. Not all cults commit murder.
>>883657
Jesus is Life. If you do not have Jesus, you do not have Life.
Death is a separation from God. If you do not have God, you are separated from God, you're dead.
You're dead right now, but because you are physically alive, you don't think about it at all. And yet there you post, a living dead man.
>>883687
actually they accept members of the Eastern Orthodox church now. guess they're no longer a cult then
>>883687
And you claim there is no Salvation outside the true form of Christianity, just as they do.
Why shouldn't I call you a cultist?
Sure, you may cal their beliefs wrong, but they still think they are doing the will of God.
>>883664
Everyone who is not found righteous by God goes to hell.
God finds people righteous by their belief in Him.
Darwin, a theologian, is likely, and hopefully, waiting to be cast into hellfire. He led more people than Mohammad into hell. People of your generation.
>>883678
How can I consider someone a heretic about something that is beyond the capacity of man to understand? No, the trinity is to be apprehended, not comprehended. We'll understand it in heaven.
It suffices to say this.
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Spirit is God.
There is One God.
>>883693
But what about all the reasons there is to believe Darwin was right in what he said?
>>883684
It was not.
It was never up for debate. It will never change.
>>883691
They're moving the emergent church into place now; the pope being the False Prophet will unite the godless world under one religious umbrella, and hand the world off to the Antichrist.
It's happening at breathtaking speed.
And by the way, the papists claim there is no salvation outside of their claws. The claim is false.
>>883702
Why didn't Jesus just make it Crystal clear what that is true?
As it is right now people may seek God, read the bible, yet fail just because they got the part of the Trinity wrong.
>>883708
What about the millions of Muslims and Atheists?
How will the pope ever hold any influence over them?
>>883692
There is no salvation without regeneration; there is no regeneration without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit; there is no indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit lacking a confession out loud that Jesus is Lord, and a belief from one's heart that God raised Him from the dead.
>>883703
There are none. I believe none of his foolishness.
>>883693
it's sad when following the evidence to it's conclusion instead of following the words of a book only claimed to be the word of God without any real justification casts you into eternal hellfire. it's sad that anything we do in our short lifespan, especially religious beliefs, will result in eternal torment. that's one sick God you worship
>>883705
but it was. do you know anything about the council of nicea or early christianity for that matter?
>>883709
"I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no man comes to the Father but by Me."
--Jesus of Nazareth
Seems pretty clear.
>>883718
Why though? What's wrong with it?
>>883732
kek, that says nothing about the doctrine of the trinity
>>883732
He isn't saying he is the father though, just that you need to follow him to come to the father.
Actually, it do seem kinda that he and the father are separate beings.
>>883713
Marian apparitions. Counterfeit signs and wonders. Apparent miracles.
And the almost complete obliteration of all muslims in the middle east.
>>883720
You're dead. Where do you think the dead go? To the land of the living?
>>883728
Two problems. One, you don't understand what I posted twice. Second, the council was not set up for that purpose. It was set up to denounce the Arians.
>>883743
to the land itself where I'll decompose and become other forms of life
>>883742
And nothing of that is even close to happening right now.
The only one slightly close to oblierating the Muslims is Israel, do you think Israel is satanic?
>>883733
Literally everything but for the post-flood early recorded history being 4,500 years old. And that is not done by C14 dating, at all.
Everything else is false.
>>883738
Jesus is the Truth. If you have Jesus, you have the Truth.
>>883745
yes, they denounced arianism because it made jesus lesser than the father. the trinity they established there as doctrine was one where all three were equal
>>883741
"I and the Father are One."
"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."
"I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me."
One being, two persons.
>>883746
That's wishful thinking on the part of someone headed for eternal torment in a pitch black lake of fire.
>>883754
but I can have Jesus and not believe in the trinity, like unitarianism or arianism. show me where you came to the conclusion that jesus is a part of a trinitarian Godhead
>>883749
It absolutely is. The emergent church, the all roads lead to God church, is the fastest growing church of this day.
Jesus is going to obliterate the muslims when they attempt to attack Israel. Read Ezekiel 38.
7 months to bury the dead.
7 years to burn their weapons.
>>883755
They. did. not. have. the. power. to. determine. the. nature. of. Jesus.
>>883751
What's so wrong with radioactive dating?
ANd what dating are we using then?
Can you guys take this to one of the other 5ish christian threads please? Most of those are more targeted at the Catholic /protestant divide, you current discussion is bloating and pulling down this thread on Mormonism, a faith that doesnt have anything to do with the tradition vs scriputre divide you guys are going on about
>>883765
It's hilariously unreliable. Igneous rocks formed in 1984 were dated to be 3 million years old. Antlers on a deer, a living deer, were carbon dated to be ten thousand years old.
The assumptions underlying radiometric dating are fatal. Google the RATE Group.
>>883758
it is not wishful thinking, I find heaven much preferable. prove to me that christianity is correct then instead of just spouting that I'm going to hell
>>883763
niether. do. you. faggot.
>>883773
Any sources for both those two findings?
>>883762
And how will a bunch of ecumenicism Christians get control over the Atheists?
And what way would the Vatican get power over the Muslims?
>>883792
by hurr durr muh biblical prophecy
>>883800
I suppose you aren't one of the Fundies?
Sorry for dumb question, just so hard to know right now.
>>883751
There were a bunch of methods listed on there other than carbon 14. y
Let's try to take this thread back, maybe?
What did the various Christian authorites say about the Mormon Church when it was new?
>>883810
nah, i've been arguing with them here for awhile
>>883835
Utah wasn't allowed to be a state until they outlawed polygamy
>>883849
Didn't some President declare war at them?
>>883718
...
>>883879
There wasn't a formal declaration of war (1, at least for a formal Declaration you need the Congress, not the President, and 2, that would be implicitly recognizing the Mormons as a sovereign entity), but there was some armed conflict. Not a huge war through. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War
>>883879
>>883935
About 10 years prior to that, though, the Mormons had actually done the federal government a huge solid during the Mexican-American War. They provided the only religiously-based army unit in U.S. history, and made the longest overland march in U.S. military history, over grueling terrain. Their trail-breaking across the Southwest ended up opening up the southern overland route for westward settlement.
>>883977
That's pretty impressive, have they ever gotten any sort of thanks for that or was they just those strange (probably dangerous) Heretics for everyone?
>>883979
they got thanks when we didn't go to Utah and kill them all
