>""""New"""" Atheism
Was that necessary?
>>873887
Not really. There's nothing new about people deciding to be idiots.
>>873894
>>873887
It's necessary to distinguish the tradition of philosophical atheism from pop science authors writing baseless screeds against religion.
Yes, it was.
>>874403
Correct. God will not force people to believe in Him. They have the power, and the sovereignty, to say that the Holy Spirit of God is a liar.
And that is unpardonable. There is no way to pardon that. It's over. Done. Fini.
>>874423
yeah but if he's an all knowing god wouldn't he know and understand why they believe that, they didn't make that decision in a vacuum they had lives worth of people and cultures influencing them, to think they would abandon that for what one of many historic books says seems a little unfair
>>874423
Very revealing statement, do you become very offended if someone doesn't believe what you are saying? What if you try to explain something to someone and they make fun of you, do you get angry with them? Do you wish that an authority figure would punish someone for disagreeing with you?
Because that's really what that statement says about you, more so than any doctrine of a god.
>>874423
>They have the power, and the sovereignty
Actually they don't. Free will would contradict god's omnipotence.
>>874437
If you think God is unfair, take it up with God. But don't presume you know all the ways God has reached out to each and every person in existence, because you're clueless.
>>874462
How does free will contradict omnipotence?
>>874468
Why do you yourself presume to know all these specific details of how people can avoid being tortured by God?
>>874514
Maybe he's a Calvinist?
>>874457
It's straight out of the bible.
Mark 3
The Unpardonable Sin
“Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—
As to your questions, because I know what the punishment for unbelief is, I do my best to shine a light in the darkness, knowing that some men prefer to keep their eyes closed.
God will not punish people for not agreeing with me; He will punish people for not agreeing with Him.
>>874462
You assume that an omnipotent being always has to exert His omnipotence in every occasion.
He does not.
It is not God's will that any should perish, but most people are going to perish. Their will is sovereign over them, not God's. God only wants people who choose Him. He is Love, not Rape.
>>874527
Because they're very clearly and very obviously laid out in the Word of God.
Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
>>874423
It's horrible what the occult does to children. Rolling that natural fear of boogiemen in the closet at about age 6, into a lifetime of terror. Machiavellian.
>>874568
Why would I believe anything in the Bible?
Forgive me if I find that unconvincing, oh wait, you don't forgive people do don't buy what you are selling.
why does sam harris have a strong following?
i really don't understand it, he's got a terrible style and weak arguments - even when he has decent conclusions he often gets there in a stupid way
>>874648
So real human acts that cause harm to human beings are automatically forgiven, but doubting the words of a cult book isn't?
That's pretty warped.
>>873887
numales needed a religion.
>>874659
All sins are against God, and only God can forgive sins.
You have this idea that you and God exist side-by-side. You don't.
He made you. You're something He made.
>>874298
/thread
>>874672
In your opinion based on a simple religious text that is.
>this many christfags
Sometime I wish I could get behind some kind of magical thinking, but I honestly find reality more interesting.
More power to you, I guess. It's a comforting thing if nothing else.
>>874585
yeah okay so god knows the word is near you, but wouldn't he know that however much is near you isn't enough to change your mind? he's all knowing he knows it wont work so why is he punishing you for him not making himself more apparent and presentable in your life?
>>874681
According to the Word of God, yes. According to the only holy text on the planet, yes. According to the One Who is never wrong, yes. (not according to my opinion)
>>874692
If you cannot deal with God, you cannot deal with reality.
>>874672
Well I don't beleive in God so naturally I don't think there is such thing as sin, or consequences for sinning.
I wonder, if you are talking to someone who doesn't believe in god, is repeating the quips about god supposed to convince me, or are they just practice for yourself?
I hate to be insulting but it strikes me that Christians need to constantly remind themselves of their indoctrination, it must be related to the lack of support for their views that need to be propped up constantly by discipline.
Reminds me of Scientology auditing where they just drill phrases into your brain over and over as a form of mental torture to wear down resistance.
>>874708
It is your belief that it is the Word of God, and your opinion that it is the only holy text in the world.
>>874468
You must be really fucking stupid and naive. kys.
>>874576
Omnipotence doesn't need to be exerted, but omniscience is inherently always 'active'. Hence at the creation of each soul he knows exactly what will happen to them, and is thus creating people in such a way that they will eventually rebel against him.
>>874576
christians get raped all the time and killed and they often suffer a great deal. gods really looking out for them huh?
>>874708
Where is the proof that it is holy? Where is the proof? Any actual evidence?
There is none. /thread
>>874708
Haha wow, just ridiculous.
>>874745
This is the ultimate division. The book is holy because the book says so. Or people say so. Believers feel it to be true, so it must be.
Every holy book is infallible because they all will tell you they are. Pretty common with any religion or cult.
>>874708
man that's some really good bait
>>874768
to be fair the bible never claims to be holy within its own text, unlike the koran or talmud
>>873887
Depends.
New Atheists are annoying as fuck, but there again humanism is all lovey dovey and says you should respect all peoples, regardless of faith, meanwhile doing fuck all to prevent fundamentalism and failing to point out ethical failures of many institutional religions.
>>874403
You dont have to believe in god In this life to be saved. Even those in hell can repent and be saved. And if you ever were to go to hell it would probably convince you there is a god. But if you are a generally good person you will probably go to heaven in the first place anyway.
To my atheist /his/torians: live with benevolence in your hearts and no punishment will be served to you. Those on good paths in life need god less than those who are not.
>>874736
See book of Job
>>874833
Don't think thats how your religion works.
Unless you care to quote specific passages supporting the list of BS you just typed.
There's nothing "new" about atheism. It, and it's arguments have existed literally since the time of the Greeks, but religious people have never listened to them, hence it is sometimes necessary to write a book that reminds theocrats that people like us actually exist and we won't let them turn society into what happened in Brussels today.
>>874873
The New part comes to actually debating theologians and pointing out their flaws instead of letting them have free reign to do as they please in the public sphere.
>>874842
book of Job really undercuts it's own point, from a christian perspective, when Job doesn't die and instead gets more than he had before
>>874982
Job's family dies
>>874998
yeah then at the end he gets a new family Job 42:13-16
>>874857
The view stated by >>874833 is most often called 'universalism'. It's not an unheard of view, and honestly the arguments in support of it are quite convincing. However, as you probably know, most Christians today are either traditionalists (sinners spend eternity in hell) or annihilationists (sinners do not suffer in the afterlife, but are simply not granted an afterlife at all).
>>873887
"New" connotes a greater propensity for groupthink.
See also: Nu-male
>>875012
nu-pol
Being so racist that you convert to "pure anglo" Christianity.
>>873887
It was inevitable but its not for everyone and it doesn't solve much.
>>875023
I'm actually Coptic.
>>874576
Here's a question then: is it God's will that no one should perish? It seems to me that, if it is, then God's omnipotence ensures the salvation of all (else we must conclude that God cannot do everything He sets His mind to, so to speak).
However, if not, then surely He would not be perfectly good, seeing as we might concieve of a being (call it X), otherwise exactly like God, which did will for the salvation of all. Since universal salvation is surely a good thing, then all else being equal, X would will for some good thing which God does not, which would seem to give X a greater good will than God, which is absurd.
In short, it seems that God must, in fact, will for the salvation of all, meaning that all shall recieve salvation, given His power.
>>875009
Yeah but the first family were good people and they died. Bad things happen to good people.
>>875067
Consider this:
You are wrong.
>>875076
gee whiz
Nice argument there, Aquinas
>>875072
yeah but so what every bad thing is a trial so you can get more good things than you had before making them not bad things, following God is thus not presented as a holy or just thing simply a way to get by in the world
>>875067
I fail to see where in the bible it states God is omnipotent, all powerful does not necessarily mean omnipotent, idiomatically it can simply mean more powerful than all others
>>875098
Point taken, but I think that the argument could still work even on that assumption. If God is all powerful in the sense of being more powerful than any one, then it seems He should be able to bring about anything anyone else could have brought about. Now, any given person can be saved, if they are converted to the faith by another.
But surely then, if a human can do it, God can do it too, and better still, since He is everlasting and eternal, He could save everyone (i.e. past, present and future) if He so wished. I don't know if I agree with this argument, but I think there is something interesting about it.
Interesting thought: I heard that Yahzidis, who have a satan-esque figure who is the other half of God, asked early Christians in a debate that if God himself was entirely good and all powerful, why would he let 'satan' exist.
The responce is said to be that one day satan himself could repent and be saved.
r/atheism: the thread
>>875133
yeah I agree with you
>>875160
an easy response to that is he's not all controlling
>>875206
Yes that's part of the point, I just didnt elaborate the whole thing as well as I should have. Satan can choose to be evil, and God will still not erase him, because there is hope for his redemption.
>>875240
i don't see any evidence for satan's redemption or hope for it, God's wrath on satan has no need to be immediate, especially if satan's actions suit gods plans in this weird diorama he's created
>>875249
Hey man I didnt come up with it lol. Interesting sentiment but I heard it from a Yahzidi expert on NPR during the yahzidi genocide mountain recuse thing last year.
>>874904
Basically this.
There is literally nothing new to the New Atheist movement except for the aggressive push for anti-theism.
>>875596
Why?
Why the ideological push for atheism? Why, outside of keeping govt institutions secular, shouldn't we just ignore fundie fart circles? Those cunts edge closer to fundamentalism every year anyways.
What exactly do atheist deny? That God exists? How do they define God?
Lord Jesus, with your own holy and precious blood you have sealed God’s new covenant with us. I thank and praise you for your sacrificial love. Grant me a servant’s heart and teach me to serve with humility in your kingdom. Amen.
>>875607
In order to keep religion from negatively affecting the world in a more passive manner. By allowing religion to be untouchable, it gets a free pass to carry on with shitty practices like circumcision and anti-LGBT activity. And even if religion stays out of the government (which it doesn't do a great job of), religious institutions still play a major part in the everyday life of many people. Until the day religion stops getting treated as if it is somehow untouchable and inherently more righteous than other institutions, secularists and atheists need to fight against religion as a corrupting force in our society.
>>875627
I agree fight the system
>>875623
I don't understand the desire to subject oneself to a higher power. Don't you find it a little bit demeaning to beg and plead to be granted the "privilege" of eternal servitude to another?
>>875635
The desire to please ones god is not the goal its fufillment and knowing the right thing has been done
>>875607
>Why the ideological push for atheism?
It's mainly a reaction to the big evangelical push in the late 20th century. This is why the VAST majority of New Atheist dialogue on Christianity is directed precisely at evangelicals (which they usually misapply to all of Christianity).
There are other arguments too - saying that it's a reaction to 9/11, that it's build up of Civil Rights Movement values, and such. I'd just say it's mainly a reaction to the Evangelical push.
>>875617
They deny 'deities' but don't take the time to go into what they mean by deities usually and because of that the general title of "atheist", like "theist", means next to nothing in itself.
This is why it gets supplemented by the group supporting positivism and some vague humanism when not talking shit about what they don't like.
>>875635
Some people are just pushers, bullies , they dont understand the literal teaching is to just love and respect one another
>>875052
Even wackier.
>>875635
it sure is demeaning becoming god
>>875653
>wacky
>not kawaii
And once again over everyones heads this goes
>>875635
No. The alternative is demeaning.
>>875660
How so?
>>875663
>Have a place set for me as part of an infinitely just, infinitely wise plan for creating the best possible universe.
>Shitpost on 4chan with my life.
I know which one I'm doing, but you can't say it's not the demeaning option.
>>875659
What did he mean by this?
>>875663
I'm saying that worshipping a higher power is inherently demeaning. I don't fully understand what you're saying.
>>875670
We live life we know its good and awesone yet we know the risk. Can you really go on without tasting chocolate? Metephoricaly
>>875676
You recognise you were once small and fragile in your mother's arms as a babe. Recognise also that you are small and fragile compared to God.
>>875648
>don't take the time to go into what they mean by deities
Why do theists always lie. I always say what I mean by "deities".
Regardless, I don't believe that humans have ever or will ever know for certain if there is or isn't a god, and as such, I inherently disagree with the premise of your argument.
>>875402
ONE OF US
>>875770
>Recognise also that you are small and fragile compared to God.
Forever. And he gets to do with you as he pleases and no matter what he does, it's right.
That's the difference, and that's the demeaning part. God beliefs are the essence of totalitarian thought.
>>876120
Of course it doesn't matter, time and again the people are tested. You can either choose a sinful, unfulfilled life on earth or an everlasting wonderful one in heaven.
Be thankful for all that you have, even when you have little because even life itself is a gift from God that demands praise.
>>876213
Nope and nope. Zero evidence to think there's a god, and zero reason to assume a thing that complex and powerful would need groveling to please it.
Fuck off, serf. You're the perfect example of the demeaning religion does.
Atheism itself wasn't necessary, look how far down the slippery slope we've gone
