When did you first realize that Plato was a loser and that the sophists were actually smarter than he was?
I can see it now, Plato, butthurt after losing an argument to an intellectually superior sophist, runs away to his room crying. He thinks up a metaphysical fantasy land where everything is perfect and there certainly aren't any mean sophists to bully him.
He writes obsessively, most of what we know of the sophists and Socrates come through him. Most of the sophists did not write much more than was necessary, the spoken word was considered the higher art form at the time. So now most of what we know of the Sophists comes through Plato's delusional fantasy stories where he trounces these strawmen in verbal debate.
Now, our degenerate education system treats the sophists as comedy acts, with the noble and triumphant Plato banishing sophistry to the history books with his schizoid dream world philosophy. High school and undergraduate college students are taught, through this blunt interpretation of the sophists, that men such as Protagoras and Gorgias are merely quack practitioners of a refuted art. Unless one takes high level philosophy classes, they will never come to understand the truth that the sophists were among the wisest men to grace the Hellenic world.
>>862799
Nietzsche believed the sophists were more legit philosophers than Socrates and his ilk.
He saw Socrates, but not Plato, as being a force of ressentment against the society of his time, that is why he walked around and tried to discredit everyone: in the trial against Socrates there are representatives from the artists, the statesmen, and the philosophers. Socrate's philosophy basically consisted of saying 2 things.
1. Nothing is subjetive
2. Nobody actually knows what the truth of anything is and his society is built on a series of falsities. All the supposed experts are dummies and everything discovered so far has been meaningless.
Plato was influenced by Socrates and tried to resolve these with his Form metaphysics. The reason no one knows anything yet truth isn't subjective is because truth exists outside of our realm. Nietzsche believed Plato was corrupted by the mad man Socrates. You can sort of see the result of Socrates corruption more so in Diogenes who's philosophy is basically "fuck the world"
>>862799
He writes obsessively, most of what we know of the sophists and Socrates come through him. Most of the sophists did not write much more than was necessary, the spoken word was considered the higher art form at the time.
Dude, the sophists wrote a shit ton of manuals and treatises on rhetoric, truth, etymology, and lots else, besides writing plenty of speeches for others to recite. The way they made money was to write for others. What's your evidence for any of this?
>>862799
Damn straight. I always used to think like that. Plato's works always seemed cringeworthy to me. In particular the obvious straw man dialogues. The sophists on the other hand make sense and actually said some worthwhile things instead of making up bullshit. In my opinion Plato fundamentally ruined the development of western philosophy.
>>862830
His thoughs on Plato seems to run deeper than that though, "Plato as an actor", the hidden volume of Aristophanes under Platos deathbed, etc.
ITT massive plebs who think anyone in the dialogues is meant to be a prophetic figure other than Zeno and Parmenides and a couple characters in the later dialogues, who blow Socrates' idealism the fuck out
>>863087
Yeah, Nietzsche has a lot more appreciation for Plato then the fedoras reading him ever realize. Recall that literally the only two passages in Beyond Good and Evil that bring up Dionysus end up linking Plato and Nietzsche closely as doing something very similar.
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I can see it now, Plato, butthurt after losing an argument to an intellectually superior sophist, runs away to his room crying. He thinks up a metaphysical fantasy land where everything is perfect and there certainly aren't any mean sophists to bully him
>>863148
Nice pic. Saved.
>>863148
plato btfo
>>863116
He also has a respect for Socrates and Jesus, in fact he actually kind of liked Jesus. But it doesn't change the fact that he opposed them. He respected them and studied them as revaluators of the past and products of a degenerate system. He knew the west needed someone like them, but someone who would create a system without the same fatal flaws in its foundation.
>>863116
>>863255
Correct. He see's Plato as a brilliant man that commited a horrible mistake and Socrates as a doctor trying to 'cure' Greece but his own antidote was a poison.
Jesus is a man that found a way to trasnciend the resentment that normally consumed people of his class but his teachings were butchered and the message was lost when they turned him into a God.
bubpm
