The Indian Ocean is severely underrated. Let's have a thread about it. Discuss anything relevant, whether it's ancient Roman trade with India or 17th century American pirates.
Why do you the Portuguese were able to dominate this whole ocean so easily in just over a decade? Between 1497 and 1511 they took Hormuz, Goa, Sofala, Kilwa, and Malacca, which might sound like a bunch of random place names, but they were among the greatest ports in the world at the time.
Personally, I'd say it was because the Portuguese came from between the Atlantic and Mediterranean, both seas with long histories of naval warfare. In comparison, the Indian Ocean had a fairly peaceful history and the cultures living along it were less prepared for European styles of naval warfare. While the Mediterranean had been filled throughout its history with cultures ranging from the Phoenicians to the Ottomans that tried to militarily dominate it, the Indian Ocean only experienced two short-lived and very limited attempts at any kind of 'domination'; that of Rajendra Chola I in the 11th century and of Zheng He in the 14th. The latter didn't even come from the Indian Ocean itself, but like the Portuguese came from another civilization with a long history of advanced naval warfare. You could argue that coming under domination from outside was an inevitability in such a rich but passive region. If the Europeans hadn't come to rule it, it might have ended up under the rule of the Ottomans or maybe even China.
Anyone disagree or have another theory?
good post OP. I don't have enough knowledge to contribute, so here's a bump
>>1065660
Thank you friendo.
>>1065561
Another factor to consider is that Portugal had no real European competitor in the Indian Ocean. Portugal had a fantastic naval tradition built up by Henry the Navigator and more experience navigating around the african coast than any other country in the world really. Spain had set its focus on the Americas and it took several more decades for the other European powers to start competing.
The drive to conquer these places was immense. Literally the worlds riches were in Indonesia and India, so Portugal would do anything to take those ports.
Finally, like any good European power, they were perfidious. In that, while seizing local ports, they made allies with other empires and locals (for example, the hindu pirate Timoji).
![nanjing-treasure-ship-12[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/qLrzV9T.jpg "nanjing-treasure-ship-12[2].jpg")
>>1065561
Zheng He was in the 15th century
I really wish China didn't get all...idk Chinese, and ban all expeditions/shipbuilding, and burn a lot of the documents (I think all?) pertaining to Zheng's expeditions.
I've read that, uninterrupted, he could have sailed as far as the New World if curious. Zheng's fleets were quite capable and could have realistically sailed into the Atlantic or South Pacific.
Also the notion of an invigorated Imperial China challenging European powers for maritime supremacy, particularly if China had their treasure ships, is fery interesting.
Does anyone know anything about Muslim traders who first explored some of the outlying islands like Mauritius, the Comoros, Madagascar, etc.?
>>1066007
>I really wish China didn't get all...idk Chinese, and ban all expeditions/shipbuilding, and burn a lot of the documents (I think all?) pertaining to Zheng's expeditions.
>I've read that, uninterrupted, he could have sailed as far as the New World if curious.
The Yongle Emperor needed the dosh to fight the Mongols. Who united under a new leadership called the four oirats.
Also the ban was pretty short: 25 years. Not everyone obeyed it anyway as evidence by Chinese merchant families plying the routes despite said ban.
>>1065561
Carracks and caravels
Carracks were essentially ships with two siege towers tacked on top. Loaded with a dozen or so heavy cannons and maybe as many as a hundred breech loading swivel guns that could fire one round (or hail shot) per minute. The opposition was mostly dhows, oversized cannoes and the occasional ottoman/italian galley.
what would be the most widely used passage to the pacific/philippines/china/japan be through the indian ocean? close to the shore in the bay of bengal, or across the open seas to sumatra?
>>1066034
Notice the anti boarding netting.
>>1065959
>The drive to conquer these places was immense. Literally the worlds riches were in Indonesia and India, so Portugal would do anything to take those ports.
Yeah, and when you add the general Iberian desire to counter Islam everywhere, the search for Prester John and commercial competition with the likes of Venice and Genoa it doesn't really seem surprising that they'd be driven to conquer in the Indian Ocean. It's just the incredible success that they had that seems surprising to me.
>the hindu pirate Timoji
Hadn't known about him, thanks for giving me something to read up on.
>>1066050
You're right, my bad.
I had one of those traditional sewn dhows on my old PC but I lost em.
>>1066068
this model seems a bit top heavy but it gives an alright idea of what they might have looked like.
>>1066081
Rendition of the Mary Rose.
Perhaps it's important to note that the Portuguese influence was typically only about a canon shot distance inland.
>>1066101
>>1066081
>>1066007
>I've read that, uninterrupted, he could have sailed as far as the New World if curious. Zheng's fleets were quite capable and could have realistically sailed into the Atlantic or South Pacific.
I don't think it's very realistic. Sure, he would have been perfectly capable of crossing the Pacific or sailing into the Atlantic if he tried, but the same would be true of plenty of Old World civilizations with decent navigational skills. What's unrealistic is to think he would actually have that desire.
The Chinese had fairly little interest in 'exploration'; they didn't search for new trade routes or lands to colonize. They were just sailing along well established trade routes as a display of power. They didn't have any drive like the Iberians had to reach the Indies, to counter Islam, or to make alliances with lost Christian kingdoms. And that's not uniquely Chinese; the fact is nobody had any huge drive to sail out into unknown seas where they'd probably just get lost and starve. True, the Carthaginians explored West Africa a bit but there was never any concentrated effort to reach any specific destination. That drive only came together in 15th century Iberia when a bunch of unique ideological, economic, geographical, political and technological factors happened to come together that lead people to try ridiculous things like sailing around Africa or circumnavigating the globe to reach the Indies.
Indian ocean is great subject, and its something I know a bit about but aren't an expect in. Trade is actually much older than Rome, we first start seeing official clues to widespread trade throughout the ocean in the original babylonian era, but theres some evidence to indicate that people had been using monsoons and sailing there since the neolithic.
Also, undereported fact, but Alexander the great expanded the trade along the ocean a lot by having people map out the coastlines and bringing the information back to Greece.
>>1067226
posted wrong pic, here's the actual periplus picture
>>1067230
>See berbers in North Africa
Okay
>See Berbers in Somalia
What?
Didn't the Portuguese conquest of the Indian Ocean ended up being quite pointless? Even as they conquered cities like Malacca, trade just went on to different ports. In the end, profits from the spice trade were never that big for Portugal and the country went bankrupt.
It was different for the Dutch because instead of trying to takeover traditional trade outposts and routes, they created their own direct route from Europe to Java that didn't need to pass through any other port.
>>1067240
Berber was basically the same thing as barbarian. For some reason it stuck around in North Africa.
>>1066007
>I've read that, uninterrupted, he could have sailed as far as the New World if curious.
Discovering the New World was 100% a fluke. Columbus could have missed entirely, gotten destroyed in a storm, or just had his crew mutiny.
Europeans were the natural choice to discover the New World because Europe was already a maritime society due to geography. Chinese were mostly a terrestrial thinking culture and state at that point in time.
>>1067243
At the start it wasn't useless at all. They benefited immensely.
The problem is that Portugal overstayed their visit and refused to compromise on sovereignty. This caused immense problems with other European powers and eventual the Republic of India, which is why their colonies ended up draining them during the late 19th and 20th centuries until they were all militarily lost.
fun topic, OP. agreed that the region is super underrated, especially for history of capitalism
i'd highly recommend checking out Makhdoom's Tuhfat al-Mujahidin if you're interested in a foundational text of jihadist scholarship, deals with the portuguese arrival on the malabar coast--the parallels to today's rhetoric are very clear
Ibn Khaldun's Muqaddimah is also a really interesting text, his dynastic cyclical theory was applicable to pretty much the entire world at the time
anyone interested in the Cairo Genizah papers? there are some incredible accounts of the region's commercial networks (can be found in Stillman's The Eleventh Century Merchant House of Ibn 'Awkal, among others)
>>1067467
>Columbus could have missed entirely,
Do you even know currents?
