What's the story behind things like the Basque? Etruscans?
>>1045277
They were already in when people start recording stuff.
Etruscans (and Iberians) did have somewhat complex civilizations that know writing, but their languages remain obscure, and will most likely remain that way.
Basques seems to have been more a primitive people, so while the language has survived/evolved, their forefather did not left any written record. They merged without much problem in the Roman Empire, they became independent again with the Fall of Empire, and their later history is linked with that of Spain and France.
>>1045277
The Nuragics left behind a lot of monuments and the first statues in Europe but we do know much about them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zajFbLyklRY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUxUbqEgFDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTcCNXaMc-M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1xdyOEWr_I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K74juUnWuqw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erq2aLseuEQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFntXicHBUY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJg6ZxfM58w
>>1045277
It looks like basques were Iberians, no weird exotic shit. They were just the last Iberians, who, not conquered nor romanized, continued their Iberian ways forever, looking weird as shit to the rest.
>>1046197
Not really, Basques were part of the Roman Empire, and their languages link with that of the Iberians is not believed by the academy anymore.
>>1045277
No one really knows where the Etruscans are from, as every new study shows conflicting evidence. Sometimes they are linked to pre-IE, sometimes they are linked to the Near East.
The truth is probably somewhere in between - maybe a large group of Anatolian immigrants left sometime after the Bronze Age and settled in Tuscany, bringing a new culture but interbreeding with the local indigenous women. Something like that fits best with the genetic, linguistic, and historical evidence.
>>1046752
>Something like that fits best with the genetic
It really does not since Genetic studies confirm that Etruscans were locals, absolutely genetically European
>Linguistic
Not really, Anatolians spoke Indo-European since the bronze age
If there was a Proto Etruscan culture in Lydia we would have found it by now.
who here doggerland
>>1046766
>tfw Germany could've blitzed the UK
Though I suppose if that land had been there the entire history of Europe would have been different so who's to say there would've been a blitzkrieg.
>>1046765
Not all Anatolians spoke IE.
>If there was a Proto Etruscan culture in Lydia we would have found it by now.
If there was a proto-Etruscan culture, or anything even remotely close to a precedent in Italy, we would have found it as well. A complex civilization like that of the Etruscans doesn't spring up from nowhere within a century.
>confirm that Etruscans were locals, absolutely genetically European
Only mtDNA. If we're to take that logic, Europe is hardly Indo-European since the vast majority of mtDNA is paleolithic, not IE.
As I said, there is conflicting DNA evidence.
>Another earlier DNA study performed in Italy, however, partly gave credence to the theory of Herodotus, as the results showed that 11 minor mitochondrial DNA lineages extracted from different Etruscan remains occur nowhere else in Europe and are shared only with Near Eastern Anatolian people.[21]
>Another source of genetic data on Etruscan origins is from four ancient breeds of cattle. Analyzing the mitochondrial DNA of these and seven other breeds of Italian cattle, it was found that the Tuscan breeds genetically resembled cattle of the Near East. The other Italian breeds were linked to northern Europe.[21]
>>1046842
>If there was a proto-Etruscan culture, or anything even remotely close to a precedent in Italy, we would have found it as well. A complex civilization like that of the Etruscans doesn't spring up from nowhere within a century.
It didn't come from nowhere, it came from the previoud Villanovian culture and evolved through centuries, some civilizations had already developed in the Western Mediterranean with nearly 0 external input (Iberians, Nuragics), so I don't see why the Etruscans couldn't exist, also as I said they didn't come from nowhere, at the time they appeared the Greek civilization came back from the "dark ages" and colonized Southern Italy thus coming in contact with Etruscans pretty often, west there was late Nuragic/phoenician Sardinia that had already come in contact with the previous Villanovians.
The Western Mediterranean was extremely active at the time (early iron age).
>>1046331
They weren't Iberians in any way.
Perhaps proto-Basque and Iberian languages were related (evidence is there, but inconclusive), but this speaks little.
Some very specific phonological and perhaps grammatical features were shared.
But so do, for example, unrelated Vietnamese and Thai languages share many things due to long historical contact yet having zero possibility of common origin.
Basque is also very-very heavily influenced by IE speech even before Latin, while Iberian - who knows, not enough data.
Linguistically, the "closest" thing to Basque language are old languages of the Caucasus, both extinct and modern. But that is comparing most basic grammar parts - they are many thousands years apart, if ever were.
This, among with other comparisons, led to a very debatable Dene-Caucasian linguistic macrofamily hypothesis. According to this hypothesis, Basques are linguistically (not genetically in any way though) related to two North Caucasian families (Abkhaz-Circassian and Nakh-Dagestani), Burushaski, Yeniseyan, Na-Dene (injuns of Canada and New Mexico) and Sino-Tibetans, of all people. Yes, perhaps Basques and Chinese share linguistic ancestry that is perhaps not only due to coincidence.
If so, Vasconic guys split from future Injins (one of the latest waves) around ~11k years ago, and from all others around 1 thousand years later.
>>1046842
Indeed, yet there was an aboriginal Rhaetic language in the Alps related to Etruscan (judging by what meager bits were found, anyway). Now how did guys from Anatolia got to Alps of all places, before Phrygian invasion of ~1200BC or Hittites ~500 yeas before even that?
A very small bit of non-IE language found on isle of Lemnos suggests there were relatives of these peoples on the Aegean region, but it is a very small bit. Etruscan-speaking or related peoples could have arrived there by boat from Italy-Alps, as there's literally one text of ~40 words, and nothing more except some vague Greek myths.
>>1046906
Not only Hittities, Luwians invaded western Anatolia since the middle bronze age and we know that the main language spoken there was Luwian, an Indo-European langauge.
That of Lemnos is an isolated case and the fact that it dates back to a couple centuries after the first Etruscan inscriptions suggests that it was Etruscan pirates/merchants visiting the island rather than the Etruscans originating from there.
>>1046890
I'm not denying that there isn't some relation to Villanovan society, or that they weren't increasingly Hellenized over the centuries. But the Near Eastern link is clearly an elephant in the room. If it weren't, scholars and archaeologists wouldn't still be debating it to this day.
Hopefully that new stone will shed some more light.
>>1046906
I'd be wary of placing too much emphasis on Lemnos. There's no reason it has to be an origin point for Etruscan, as you said it was most likely traders or pirates taking over the island.
>>1046890
this alot of Semitic civilizations and expansions ie: phoenicians/nugaric
remember kids, etruscans were basically a phoenician colony if not a vassal, they bowed down to phoenician deities and stuff
and remember even more kiddies - Europe is a Phoenician word
now the euros were are interested in are Upper-Paleo dudes.
The first Homo Sapiens skulls found in Europe looked like a cross between Khoisan and proto-Mongoloid skulls.
they were robust and cro-magnid
the original population of Europe was Upper-Paleolithic Venus culture. Venus culture is pre-historic African with features of African steatopygia.
White people of Europe still retain the African features (pic related) of the original population: Prognathism
>Platyrhine (flat, snub or concave noses adapted for cold from snub nose)
http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/venus-figurines-european-paleolithic-era-001548
http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Dobruja_Thrace_1.htm
>>1046906
>Basque is closer to fucking Chinese than it is to Spanish.
That's eerie.
>>1046950
>Upper-Paleo Europeans were Khoisan
Our model suggests that during this period of climatic upheaval, the descendants of the hunter-gatherers who survived through the Last Glacial Maximum were largely replaced by a population from another source
The new data show that the mitochondrial DNA of three individuals who lived in present-day Belgium and France before the coldest period in the last Ice Age -- the Last Glacial Maximum -- belonged to haplogroup M. This is remarkable because the M haplogroup is effectively absent in modern Europeans but is extremely common in modern Asian, Australasian, and Native American populations.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160204150602.htm
>>1046766
was there any way it could have not disappeared?
>>1046956
So Basque-Chinese relation is somewhat more eerie than Basque-Navajo?
I'm an amateur linguist and the evidence is there, if debatable. The problem is that even if there was an ancestral link, it was too long ago to get any conclusive evidence using reliable methods.
Also consider that male genetics of Finns and many North Siberians is closer to Chinese and South-East Asian peoples than to Indo-Europeans by tens of thousands of years, yet Uralic and Sino-Tibetan, Austroasiatic, Hmong-Mieng etc. families have nothing in common.
Or that Indo-European male ancestry (R) is a cousin of Q, that is of absolute majority of American Indians. Or that Mongols with their C3 are closer to Abbo C4 and Na-Dene C3b that to, well, anyone else except Tibetans and some Ainus with their D.
Prehistory is extremely divergent and interesting, yet we known so little by using insanely advanced methods.
>>1046950
>and remember even more kiddies - Europe is a Phoenician word
I'd like to see some proofs. Otherwise it is probably from Ancient Greek ευρύς - "wide" and and όψις - "eye", that is "Chick with Anime-tier eyes".
Phoenician 'ereb couldn't have turned into Εὐρώπη, just no way. No more than Etruski and Russkie are cognates.
>>1047139
>No more than Etruski and Russkie are cognates.
What if... what if a band of Etruscans fled Roman aggression, headed north, and...
Reminder the Etruscans gave us the word people and person. Without them we'd be "folk" or some dumb shit.
>>1047592
there is nothing wrong with "folk" or "man", kindred.
>>1047592
It would be lede and wight, respectively.
>>1047672
>ywn see a more pure english
>>1047592
Don't talk to me or my wifes son ever again.
>>1047678
Scots is pretty close to what a pure English might look like, it still has Latinate vocabulary, but nowhere near as much as English.
Too bad it's dying.
>>1047542
And this is why Basque-Caucasian or Dene-Caucasian hypothesis borders on Eternal Etrusskies. If not for some weird similarities in some grammar parts and extremely conservative vocabulary, I'd be /his/ shitposting king.
Bengtson also adds Sumerian to a macrofamily from Spain to Canada. And Tyrsenian, that is Etruscan+Rhaetian. But this is a step in ayyy territory.
Also, I've read that a number of Etruscan males tested for Y-DNA showed haplogroup G, now very rare except Caucasus (very numerous in Abkhazia and Ossetia regions, if I'm not mistaking, way over 50%). Otzi the Ice Dude had G too.
HOWEVER in Tyrol region of Austria (remember Rhaetian), there are pockets of G men (up to 40% in some testing sites), 10-20% occurrence in highland Sardinia. Elba had a bit more than 10% in several tests.
European average is 5%, with almost total absence in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe north of Pontic steppe.
Basques are barely 1-2% more G than the rest of Spain though.
>>1047719
What if Kartvelians, Sardinians, Minoans, Etruscans and so on, are all just offshoots of the "Pelasgians"?
>>1047758
Greeks about Sardinians:
"It is said that in the island of Sardinia are located buildings modeled according to the ancient Hellenic tradition, and many other beautiful buildings, and buildings with domed ceiling with an extraordinary ratio of proportions. It is believed that these works have been raised as the son of Iolaus Iphicles at a time when, taking with it the Tespiadi sons of Heracles, moved the colony to take her away from their places of origin to those regions, as these procured for the marriage of Heracles to which any land was located towards the West believed belonged to him [...]. " It further reports that Sardinia was in ancient times, prosperous and dispenser of every product and that Aristeo: "... in his day was the most experienced among men in the art of cultivating the fields, were the ladies in these places ; Aristeo before these places were occupied by many and large birds ...."
>Europa was a Canaanite Phoenician/Hebraic woman of high lineage,[1] for whom the continent Europe was named
In Greek mythology Europa (/jʊˈroʊpə, jə-/; Greek: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē) was the mother of King Minos of Crete, a woman with Phoenician origin of high lineage,[1] and for whom the continent Europe was named. The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story; as Kerényi points out "most of the love-stories concerning Zeus originated from more ancient tales describing his marriages with goddesses. This can especially be said of the story of Europa"
>>1046766
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P9wQj6qX2I
Great Time Team special on Doggerland
Aquitanian and Vasconic peoples became part of the Roman Empire without seemingly great problems. If their romanization was not as profound as those of the peoples around the Mediterranean coasts, that caused by their peripheal position in the Roman World.
The progressive weakening of the roman grip over its periphery during the last decades of the Empire, make the Vasconic peoples independent once more. They have been linked with the Bagaudic movement of the Low Empire, but its hard to claim that it was a "Vasconic" movement even if some Vasconi may have take part on it.
They have violents contacts with the Germanic tribes, Rechiarius, king of the Suebs, ravaged their lands, but, in the upcoming decades and centuries they suffered a transformation, they became a people powerful enough to fight back the Germanics and launch predatory expeditions to the more developed Frankish and Gothic realms.
They faced multiple campaigns from Franks and Goths, while they were nominally subjected by them, they revolted shortly after and remained as relevant players, a very different pic from that of the Roman Empire.
The whereabouts of the Vaconic peoples during the first years of the Emirate, are obscure, a short lived Muslim garrison existed on Pamplona, the most relevant Basque city, and a Roman foundation, but the coastal areas seem untouched.
The ancestors of the founders of the future Basque Country seems to have been more close to the recently founded Asturian kingdom, while the future Navarrese keep looking at the Ebro basin keping ties with other local powers.
During Middle Ages, the "Vascon" name appears to have been dropped, in favour of new ones.
The Navarrese would create their own kingdom set in Pamplona, a new kingdom to compete in the Reconquista.
And the kingdom of Pamplona was the one that reaped the gains from the collapse of the Umayyad Caliphate, becaming the leading power for a generation, when the partition of the realm paved the road for Castile.
