What are some some decent works on this matter?
I wish to understand the difference between paranoid conspiracy and truth.
From what Ive gathered so far they are just a fraternity based on enlightenment thinking and as a result are taken by established churches as seeking their destruction. However this becomes blurred as some Masons seem to have used their organisation to attack state churches (as happened in Brazil and France to some degree) whilst others used it protect these groups - as done by Frederik in Prussia.
Still it does seem hard to differentiate between masons acting acting on their own motivation and acting as a result of direction by the organisation.
It's a high school club for old and bored rich men. If they have any influence its because they're rich, not because they're masons
>>837765
/thread
>>837746
>What are some some decent works on this matter?
Ho-boy. That's a LONG list. I'll say start with Neville Barker-Cryer's York Mysteries Revealed, and then Freemasonry for Dummies by Chris Hodepp, and finally Gould's History of Freemasonry. Read the rituals too (unless you're intending to join, in which case don't spoil it).
>Still it does seem hard to differentiate between masons acting acting on their own motivation and acting as a result of direction by the organisation.
People doing shit like that just wanted something to blame their actions on.
>>837746
Well to do but ignorant underlings of the Black Pope. The G stands for gold apparently.
>>837999
The G stands for Scottish and American ignorance.
You know how you read about the masonic symbols on the dollar bill and how its a sign they are secret overlords of society.
When I visited my local chapter they actually had dollar bills hanging on the walls. First time I've seen some conspiracy shit have any truth to it.
I come from a Masonic family including a high-ranking judge/government official and a very wealthy landowner and I'll just say this:
SEVERAL family members have come forward with claims of being sadistically ritually abused as children
Not saying all or even most Masons are involved with it, but there is definitely a dark element within the lodge system
>>838033
Anecdotes aren't worth the paper they're written on, but it sounds like your family is fucked up.
>>838050
>Anecdotes
Except for, you know, the testimonies of thousands of other ritual abuse survivors from Masonic families
>>838033
I have three generations worth of Masons in my family too and never once have I heard of anything like that, at all.
It's all just bored rich old dudes telling each other interesting things over dinner every Tuesday evening.
>>838069
Testimonies without proof are anecdotes.
I'm not saying there haven't been crooked Masons, but most of those "ritual abuse survivors" have been full of shit, and that probably drowns out the real ones.
>>838078
Like I said, not all or even most, I'm not surprised in the least you haven't heard of this
>It's all just bored rich old dudes telling each other interesting things over dinner every Tuesday evening.
You're kinda glossing over the whole plethora of rituals Masons must perform, the vows of secrecy, and seem to not be aware of the historical crossover of lodge memberships with more openly occult secret societies
Satanists/Luciferians and Masons have always been in the same circles
>>838083
>but most of those "ritual abuse survivors" have been full of shit
Only a fraction of the survivors have come forward in the media and only a fraction of those have been definitely proven to be false
>>838120
>You're kinda glossing over the whole plethora of rituals Masons must perform
And you've obviously not encountered them. Just making an inference based on the modern usage of "ritual."
>must
There's nothing anyone "must" do in Masonry.
>>838155
>based on the modern usage of "ritual."
Are you saying the word "ritual" shouldn't be used in the modern era? Or that there are different definitions for a modern and a historical usage of the word "ritual"? Honestly curious
>There's nothing anyone "must" do in Masonry.
To maintain membership there is, wouldn't you say? Vows that can't be broken if you want to remain a Mason
>>838185
>Or that there are different definitions for a modern and a historical usage of the word "ritual"?
That'n. It seems to have become narrower in connotation. Like, a ritual can be one's daily practice. Or the ritual of communion at church. Same with the degree rituals of Masonry. But because the popular association for "ritual" is something dark and sinister now, it paints everything else poorly.
>To maintain membership there is, wouldn't you say?
Yes, but that's not something one *must* do. Everyone makes the choice to remain a member, and to remain practicing moral and social virtues.
>>838195
>Like, a ritual can be one's daily practice.
Are you denying that Masons have initiatory rites?
>Yes, but that's not something one *must* do. Everyone makes the choice to remain a member, and to remain practicing moral and social virtues.
This is a really vague answer.
If you really want people to take you seriously you should give us reasons to think that rich and powerful people don't use their wealth and power to pursue their own agendas.
>>838195
Isn't all that an issue of semantics?
On the spectrum between daily practice rituals and ceremonial rituals, degree rituals falls more squarely towards the latter. The rituals are highly symbolic and have a high degree of spirituality to them, as they are meant to signify the evolution of a Mason's enlightenment. This is the exact same use of rituals as mystery schools and occult societies.
and just to be pedantic the second definition of "must" is:
>(modal auxiliary, defective) To do as a requirement;
Are there not requirements to being a Mason? This is the definition of "must" I was using
>>838242
>Are you denying that Masons have initiatory rites?
No, that's what i was specifically not doing.
>This is a really vague answer.
Kinda my point. In that it's not such a narrow term.
>If you really want people to take you seriously you should give us reasons to think that rich and powerful people don't use their wealth and power to pursue their own agendas.
Onus is on you, bro. But you'd have to prove that this is a part of Masonry, not just the rich and powerful being rich and powerful, whilst also being members of x or y group.
>>838246
>Isn't all that an issue of semantics?
Of course.
>This is the exact same use of rituals as mystery schools and occult societies.
Absolutely. But my point was that we shouldn't think of ritual as such a narrow term, referring to things which are bad. Like rituals used in the mystery schools were all pretty innocent (for the time), but if you were to say to the average person, "there was a ritual of initiation to the Elyunesian Mysteries", they're going to think, "aww shit, they summoning daemons and shit", rather than they learned and considered certain principles.
>Are there not requirements to being a Mason?
Yes, but again, that's not something one *must* do.
>>838261
>that's what i was specifically not doing.
You gave the opposite impression.
>Kinda my point
It's a really useless point, anyone who's read the Confucian Analects understands it.
>Onus is on you, bro
No it isn't. See >>837765. This would be an adequate answer if we didn't expect a high level of discourse here.
>>838279
>You gave the opposite impression.
My bad, then.
>It's a really useless point, anyone who's read the Confucian Analects understands it.
True, but that's not an assumption one frequently makes on here.
>No it isn't.
Kind of is. You're making the claim. How am i meant to prove a negative?
>>838261
>Yes, but again, that's not something one *must* do.
Not to be a dick, but technically it is according to the definition of the word I just gave you
>>838279
>How am i meant to prove a negative?
The claim I really am taking issue with is the one made in the first reply to this post and the singular response to it prior to my own in my last post. The issue is not that the claims are false but that they're inadequate descriptions of an organization that has centuries of history and whose membership has included many important individuals. This is not a claim that it's a conspiracy to bring about a new world order, so don't insult me by acting as if that's the argument I"m making. I'm just telling you that the information given thus far from both sides--the guy claiming his uncle was molested by Masons and the guy claiming Masons dindu nuffin--is inadequate, and the guy saying Masons dindu nuffin is undermining his own position by acting as if everyone ITT but him is an idiot.
>>838300
Only to retain membership in their jurisdiction. And you're not being a dick. I think i'm being a bit obtuse. I was trying to say that the things to retain membership are passive, not active.
>>838303
>and the guy saying Masons dindu nuffin is undermining his own position by acting as if everyone ITT but him is an idiot.
Not saying they're idiots, but they're acting irrationally. As in, the chap making the extraordinary claim is at the disadvantage without presenting proof. Ie. Something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without it.
Much like if i were to say that my family was abused by Catholic priests, unless i provide proof, you can't really assert their guilt. Moreover, anyone defending them would have no place from which to mount a defense, as nothing has been substantially put forth.
>>838312
You're assuming that we're acting irrationally--I, for one, already understood that. You haven't yet given an interesting account of the history of Freemasonry, though. I'm asking you to tell us something about the organization that will make me less likely to think you're concealing knowledge about it. This is the only thing people who claim to understand Freemasons ever do on 4chan: they either yell about unverifiable conspiracies or try to brush off anyone who asks them about Masonry as irrational conspiracy theorists. I, for one, think that the history of the Catholic Church is worth studying aside from abuse scandals, and I think the same is true of Masonry. You're the one being obfuscatory here.
>>838323
>You haven't yet given an interesting account of the history of Freemasonry, though.
Oh, my bad. I thought OP was just asking for book recs.
>I'm asking you to tell us something about the organization that will make me less likely to think you're concealing knowledge about it.
Happy to. But now I'm not sure what kind of stuff you're after.
- Originally after the formation of the first Grand Lodge, rituals were so widely available to the public that lodges swapped the passwords so cowans would stop wandering in.
-Sandusky, Ohio is the only city deliberately laid out according to Masonic symbolism. The street pattern represents an open KJV with a Square & Compass laid across it.
-Everything in Masonry can be found in the Bible
Hell, i don't know what else to say, bro.
>You're the one being obfuscatory here.
I apologise, it wasn't my intent.
>>838312
>Much like if i were to say that my family was abused by Catholic priests, unless i provide proof, you can't really assert their guilt.
With cases of abuse though there is no physical evidence, Catholic priests who did abuse children are proven guilty by the shared testimonies of their victims.
I'm actually glad you mentioned the Catholic Church because really there should be no difference between the widely believed claims of widespread abuse given by the victims of Catholic abuse and the little believed claims of the victims of Masonic abuse.
Both should be treated as just as valid due to the sheer number of testimonies.
One could argue that the reason that the Church couldn't maintain its secrecy of the abuse and dispel the legitimacy of the victims' testimonies the same way the Freemasons have is because priests aren't ingrained into positions of political and most importantly judicial power.
So many damn judges are Freemasons.
>>838354
You post as if the two groups of child molesters are independent of each other.
>>838354
>Both should be treated as just as valid due to the sheer number of testimonies.
A lot of testimonies doesn't automatically make something valid. Otherwise UFO sightings would be universally agreed upon.
Especially the few ones about Masonic abuse, they always wind up very farfetched compared to the ones which are proven (Jesters).
>So many damn judges are Freemasons.
No, people think many judges are. Again, without proof. Like in the UK when they tried to make it mandatory to declare membership, it wound up being a minuscule number were members.
It also presumes that membership automatically = bad guy, which is certainly not the case.
>>838033
There's nothing about abusing children in any masonic ritual. Children are not involved at all in masonry.
Ofcourse in any organisation certain individuals might use the opportunities created by the nature of the organisation, to act out his unnacceptable behaviour. There's nothing inherent about the scouts/church/masonry that promotes (for example) child abuse.
>>838392
All Luciferian elite rape and kill children as their ultimate sacrifice to their devil god.
Here are some myths and facts:
>Myth: It's a rich man club where people go to make connections
>Fact: Any expectations of personal gain are prohibited in freemasonry, and result in expulsion if strongly suspected
>Myth: It's just a fraternity
>Fact: No, it isn't. Go to any Masonic lodge website or forum - they state that they aren't in their FAQ.
>Myth: Masonry has no secret symbolism or any secrets, for that matter.
>Fact: During the initiation, as well as when accessing the Master Mason degree, one swears and gives an oath not to reveal any masonic secrets, which usually pertain symbolism. (The most common being the well-known all-seeing eye which represents what Masons call "The Grand Architect of the Universe", as well as some other symbol relating to the construction of the Temple of Solomon, and stonemason tools.)
>Myth: Masonry has nothing to do with morality or what one does in a society.
>Fact: Masons advance through degrees by learning Masonic morality lessons from the symbolic teachings (usually in the form of stories, drawings, and symbolism).
The overall answer to your question is that Freemasons are a "society with secrets" (rather than a secret society), which seeks to educate its members about its form of morality, and identification signs which allow fellow Masons to identify one another. Also, during the initiation, they swear to protect their fellow Masons should any of them be in danger, with the expectations that every Mason will protect them in return should one be in danger.
Also, Freemasons themselves believe that they originate from the Freestone Masons, from the times of the construction of the Temple of Solomon.
Does Freemasonry have any influence? It's up to you to answer this question. Just bear in mind this list of Freemasons, which is incomplete and doesn't include contemporary members:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freemasons_%28A%E2%80%93D%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freemasons_%28E%E2%80%93Z%29
Hey, is The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown pretty accurate about the Freemasons?
>>838426
>is [...] by Dan Brown accurate
NOPE
Spoopy
>>838433
Pretty safe equation.
>>838366
What exactly are you implying?
>>838370
>A lot of testimonies doesn't automatically make something valid
How else does one substantiate abuse claims? Equating systemic abuse with UFO's is absurd and offensive because the former is very possible and doesn't require breaking the laws of physics
>tried to make it mandatory
>it wound up being
So wait, did they succeed in making it mandatory or just try to?
>in the UK
Even if it is a minuscule number in the UK, I was mainly referring to the US which was founded by Freemasons and thus is probably more likely to have a tradition and history of Freemasons serving as judges and lawyers in the legal system
>It also presumes that membership automatically = bad guy
I wasn't implying that, I was pointing out that if the claims of ritual abuse are true then there is an already in place a defense system of Freemason judges who could be involved in a cover-up and act as a deterrent against victims who try to go to the courts for justice
>>838392
I didn't mean to imply it was inherent to Freemasonry, I tried to make clear this is a small but powerful minority element within the system
>>838551
That the Jesuits are behind both the catholic molestations and the Freemason molestations. That there is an unholy alliance between the Vatican and the devil, and that both the Vatican and the upper tier Freemasons openly worship satan.
>>838573
Well that's certainly a theory, but it's so hard to say which group in particular is "behind everything"
Personally, I don't see the occult elite system as being a clearly defined hierarchy, but rather a chaotic maelstrom of different criminal groups sometimes working in league and sometimes against each other, some are devout Satanists/Luciferians but some are atheists who just enjoy sadism and being transgressive
It's a power trip for an elite to take what the lower classes value and subscribe to (Christianity) and to debase and mock it, because one is above it
One rarely rises to great power and wealth without doing some sinning and indeed sociopaths thrive in the pursuit of influence, they have proof that a God doesn't control anything and if there is an all powerful being who rules this universe it is more likely Satan
The Hellfire Club is a really good example of this
>>837765
>If they have any influence its because they're rich, not because they're masons
Well yes and no.
They socialise here, which leads to contacts being developed which makes "calling for help" possible.
It's pretty much trade union, just for rich people.
I haven't read the thread so some might have already answered, and I know that there are masons on this board from previous threads similar to this, but let me tell you what I know:
>once a month, every two weeks, or even weekly, depending on the place, Masons gather to perform a ritual and have dinner afterwards.
>they dance and sing and do all sorts of symbolic movements in their rituals.
>being a Mason won't give you any power.
>after their ritual they'll have dinner where both men (non-masons) and woman can be present, some Masons even bring their wives for dinner.
>what they do before/after the ritual is just chat, banter and if anyone wants then they can bring up something like an issue or just an interesting fact.
>sometimes they do lectures on history (of philosophy, freemasonry, religion, etc)
I've said it before and I'll say it again: any mason that you'll ask will tell you it's a Fraternity where a man goes through spiritual building, any ex-mason will tell you it's an old man club to get away from the wife once in a while
In short, it's a club, its main point is just socializing as any other club, but it comes with a little touch of mysticism and the occult, but nothing "freaky", rather, symbolic.
As for the history of Freemasonry, it was officially a thing since the early 18th century, but it's "true" origins are unclear and even debated upon within Freemasonry itself.
...and they even have their own memes...
https://plus.google.com/photos/100484059343926615740/albums/6001417342079812177
>>838713
>One rarely rises to great power and wealth without doing some sinning and indeed sociopaths thrive in the pursuit of influence, they have proof that a God doesn't control anything and if there is an all powerful being who rules this universe it is more likely Satan
?
There are plenty of those in the elite who aren't sociopaths, ranging from Elon Musk to Stephen Hawking.
Also, why do Christfags always assume that atheists are some kind of Satanists (whatever that means)? They're just people who don't believe in God. Is a baby a Satanist because he doesn't understand the concept of God? What kind of level of retarded bullshit is that?
>>838887
This is false.
Masonry is far "deeper" than that. It's for religionfags who enjoy being deep and intellectual. (Believing in God is a requirement for Masonic membership).
You know nothing at all about how Masonry works, do you? It has far more to do with learning Masonic morality, defending fellow Masons, and so on.
>>840078
What I said isn't false at all, nothing of it was incorrect.
And I know believing in a higher being is required, and the other things you said.
>learning Masonic morality
>any mason that you'll ask will tell you it's a Fraternity where a man goes through spiritual building
>>838713
Interesting artwork.
>>840049
Those are your two examples of non-sociopaths?
>>840087
Lucifer is a higher being than a lost human being.
>>840104
sorry, higher power*, maybe higher being is a bit too vague. Tho, I bet some Masons did get a pass by saying they believe in Lucifer.
>>840114
It's required at the top.
>>840102
Yes. There are many more. You don't have to be a sociopath to be in the elite, and you don't have to be a sociopath to be an atheist. And you don't need to be a Satanist to be an atheist. In fact, one could argue that atheists aren't Satanist by definition.
>>840104
No. There's no such thing as Lucifer - it's a creation of fiction. And poor and shitty fiction at that.
And Freemasonry is fucking retarded for the most part, because it requires one to believe in God to join. It also teaches pseudo-history that they can't even back up.
>>840049
I didn't say all elites are sociopaths, only that to get to that level of power/wealth/influence you have to play a little dirty at the very least and that there are sociopaths thriving at that echelon of society
Also, celebrities are the minority of minorities, poor examples imo
I'm not Christian (I'm more of a pantheist actually) nor do I think atheists are all Satan worshipers (lol)
Just because I mention some atheists in a negative light doesn't mean I'm against atheism
Atheists can be bad people too
>>840099
It's highly symbolic to what's being discussed
pic related is also symbolic
>>840140
Again, they require belief in a higher power, and Lucifer/satan/the devil is that higher power.
>>840207
Just to chime in, my theory is that Masons do worship God but it's not the God spoken of by the likely Gnostic influenced Jesus of Nazareth, the Higher God also known as Bythos, but rather the God of the Old Testament who is a malevolent and vicious deity who is called the Demiurge named Yaldabaoth, same entity as the Devil, the Beast
The Masonic God is the Great Architect, creator and ruler of the material world, but wholly separated from the heavenly higher plane of the Pleroma that is the source of true enlightenment
Where as the mystery schools that are Freemasonry's ancestors taught initiates how to attain godhood, the Gnostics sought to bring the soul back into union with the holy Pleroma
The pyramid is the sign of the Great Architect because it is the pattern for the hierarchy of power, dominion over reality and lesser beings who have not, nor desire to become, gods in the image of the Demiurge
>>838551
>How else does one substantiate abuse claims?
Call me old fashioned, but i like hard evidence. If a testimony is corroborated with it, then that's okay.
>So wait, did they succeed in making it mandatory or just try to?
Temporarily. But the EU said it was unjust.
>I was mainly referring to the US which was founded by Freemasons and thus is probably more likely to have a tradition and history of Freemasons serving as judges and lawyers in the legal system
It really wasn't, though. It was something like 1/5 of the DoI signers were members, but that's about it. It's more commonly accepted that the UK has larger Masonic influence in public service, because it was more of an aristocratic association.
>then there is an already in place a defense system of Freemason judges who could be involved in a cover-up
But that ties back to believing that members are inherently bad, despite having a number of cases where the accused tried to use his Masonic connexion to gain leniency, and the judge said, "GTFO, you're not a brother of mine if you break the law, and by extension, your Masonic oaths."
Remember, Masonic fraternal defense explicitly does not cover crimes, but instead encourages members to expose that which their brothers have done wrong. [See; 1st degree SW charge, and 3rd degree Obligation]
>>838887
>...and they even have their own memes...
Ulgh, dammit all, Nick.
>>840078
>It has far more to do with learning Masonic morality, defending fellow Masons
Eh, i'd say the other guy was closer. As we don't really have "Masonic morality", instead learning Biblical and social morality (it varies in areas). And not so much defending fellows, but helping them help society.
>>840140
>It also teaches pseudo-history that they can't even back up.
Such as? If you're referring to the stories of the degrees, we admit they're just stories to learn from.
>>840312
>The Masonic God is
False. There is no "Masonic God", because Masonry isn't a religion.
How much of the Masons worship satan and abuse children is based on the Taxil Hoax material?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax
>The first book produced by Taxil after his conversion was a four-volume history of Freemasonry, which contained fictitious eyewitness verifications of their participation in Satanism. With a collaborator who published as "Dr. Karl Hacks," Taxil wrote another book called the Devil in the Nineteenth Century, which introduced a new character, Diana Vaughan, a supposed descendant of the Rosicrucian alchemist Thomas Vaughan. The book contained many implausible tales about her encounters with incarnate demons, one of whom was supposed to have written prophecies on her back with its tail, and another who played the piano in the shape of a crocodile.[2]
>Diana was supposedly involved in Satanic freemasonry but was redeemed when one day she professed admiration for Joan of Arc, at whose name the demons were put to flight. As Diana Vaughan, Taxil published a book called Eucharistic Novena, a collection of prayers which were praised by the Pope.
>On April 19, 1897, Taxil called a press conference at which he claimed he would introduce Diana Vaughan to the press. He instead announced that his revelations about the Freemasons were fictitious. He thanked the clergy for their assistance in giving publicity to his wild claims.[3]
what's the relationship of freemasonry to kabbalah if any
>>841515
None, except what Qabbalists read into it. There are some side degrees which discuss the study of it amongst other antiquated systems like Hermeticism, though.
>>841555
>>841515
they don't follow the Kabbalah they follow the qlippoth well the higher ups anyway
