Was Bruce Ismay wrong for getting on the lifeboat?
I'll share first: I don't think he was wrong for getting on a lifeboat. I think he was wrong for claiming for afterward saying that everything was calm, when multiple eyewitness accounts suggest it was not at this point--that this was a boat where crewmen had to fire warning shots into the air, and passengers were trying to rush the boat in a fit of panic. He was wrong for signing off on the White Star Line policies for charging the families of dead crew members whose bodies were retrieved from the ocean. He was wrong for signing off on the reduction of the lifeboats from 32 to 20 because it made the 'first class deck look cluttered.'
I don't suppose we'll ever know the entire truth, though. Were there really no women or children around, despite 1500+ people still being left on the ship, including hundreds of women and dozens of children? Or was this something created in survivor memories afterward, to help justify their own survival? Did people rush and panic, as some eyewitnesses say, or was there no rush and calm, as Ismay said? After all right after launching this boat, crew members had to form a protective linked arm circle around the next launched boat so that women and children could get through first because of the great crush of people panicking on deck.
hey at least he didn´t crossdressed to get in a boat
>>831954
To be fair, he didn't crossdress to get in the boat. He jumped into the boat along with a group of other men. Officers then arrived with a group of male and female 3rd class passengers and ordered the men out so they could get the women in, then fired shots into the air and warned them since a few weren't moving. All of the men but Buckley started to climb out. From his inquiry:
>I was crying. There was a woman in the boat, and she had thrown her shawl over me, and she told me to stay in there. I believe she was Mrs. Astor. Then they did not see me, and the boat was lowered down into the water, and we rowed away out from the steamer.
>>831976
>it's another mosley thread
>>831880
>Just fuck my ship up
He started off the modern tradition of those in charge not going down with the ship think of it like Enron.
>>831998
do you have more of this
for research purposes, of course.
>>831880
He was a coward and he spent the rest of his life in shame. It was mainly his fault the wreck happened in the first place. He just wanted to make headlines.
>>832724
>It was mainly his fault the wreck happened in the first place. He just wanted to make headlines.
Interestingly enough, the James Cameron film invented that conversation. Or rather, invented what was said during it in order to make Ismay a more blatant villain.
James Cameron version: A woman sitting right behind the captain and Ismay hears Ismay telling the reluctant Captain that they speed up like mad and should arrive a full day earlier in New York because 'Titanic must make headlines!' even though the captain says he doesn't want to test the boilers and wants to pace himself. In the movie he basically bullies the captain into speeding up even though they "shouldn't."
Reality, or rather the reality presented by the actual woman who claimed to overhear this conversation: A woman sitting a full table's length away and facing away from them, overheard a 2 hour conversation, and recalled that Ismay--who she says 'did the talking'--say: "We made a better run today than we did yesterday, we will make a better run tomorrow. Things are working smoothly, the machinery is bearing the test, the boilers are working well" and "We will beat the Olympic and get in to New York on Tuesday." She did not hear Captain Smith say anything to disagree with this, nor did she hear Ismay give any orders or suggestions, or even mention headlines, just positively say "we're going to do better tomorrow." All she heard Ismay say was that he was confident, with the ship's performance, that they would make that time. On maiden voyages, you did test all of the machinery, and there was no indication that they wouldn't keep on lighting the boilers as they did for Olympic and other liners before her.
>>833180
Now, context: "Getting into New York," in 1912 by passenger liner standards, did not mean arriving in New York harbor. Ships were recorded as arriving in New York when they passed a navigation beacon that was off of New Jersey. On her maiden voyage, the Olympic passed the beacon at 2:24 am on Wednesday. So, in order for Ismay's assertion to come true, all Titanic would have to do was cross that beacon before 12:00 am Wednesday. On her second voyage out to New York, the Olympic passed the lightship at 10:08 PM on Tuesday--so it's not like 'arriving on Tuesday' would be some crazy outlandish dream. If they hadn't hit the ice berg, it's almost certain they would have arrived 'on Tuesday' due to making excellent time.
Also: Would Ismay, the managing director of the White Star Line, have risked financial and even social reputation loss by arriving a full day early? You 'booked' your spots in New York harbor, so there's no guarantee it would even have a place for Titanic if it actually arrived in on Tuesday. Passengers booked everything ahead of time--rental cars, hotels, family members coming to get them, train tickets, not to mention the press was booked for Wednesday. So you'd have about 1300 passengers whose plans would be totally fucked over, including 200+ first class passengers who would not be too happy to have their plans disrupted, and 700+ third class passengers who wouldn't have the money to find accommodations in NYC. Ships like Titanic made their money from word of mouth. The headline: "Titanic arrives fully day early, disrupts passengers and dock" would not be something Ismay or the company would want.
Is it immoral to survive?
I can understand why these people feel ashamed afterwards but I can't blame them for doing what they did. I just can't
>>833205
>Is it immoral to survive?
There's two basic ways people view it.
One: Ismay was not an ordinary passenger. He was a director of the White Star Line and, as someone in one of the inquiries put forth, he actively put himself in a position of finding women and children and putting them in the boats. He even took it upon himself to dismiss female crew members who weren't getting on the boats from their positions, saying that they were relieved of their duties and were just passengers now. So he wasn't acting as a regular passenger but in a position of authority. And Captain Smith and the other crew members practiced, precedence in lifeboats should be given to passengers.
Two: If Ismay had gotten out of the lifeboat or never stepped in, what then? If no one else stepped in, that merely meant he would be just another victim. To quote Lord Mercer at the end of the British inquiries: "Had he not jumped in he would merely have added one more life, namely, his own, to the number of those lost." By several accounts, he helped many women and children get into the boats before taking a place himself. He was a civilian who happened to have a high position at the White Star Line managerial side, not a sailor/officer/captain.
>>833355
also:
Ismay's survival and the absolute blow to his reputation is really fascinating because it's very unusual. Men--and crew members--were statistically way more likely to survive passenger liner sinkings than women or children, yet there really wasn't this great stigma of men surviving before Titanic. The long sinking time left social constructs alive until the last minutes before the ship ended up sinking, and the consequence of that social construct was that when Ismay survived, people considered his survival to be at the expense of that woman, that child, that family, since most other men died with the ship. Titanic was the first time that social expectations were applied to ship survival in such a grand, dramatic and emotional way. People reasoned that if the bellhops, not one over 16 years old, died with the ship because they were considered adult male crew members, then why not Ismay? The American smear campaign against Ismay didn't help either.
>>831880
What to do, when a ship carrying a hundred passengers suddenly capsizes and only one lifeboat? When the lifeboat is full, those who hate life will try to load it with more people and sink the lot. Those who love and respect life will take the ship’s axe and sever the extra hands that cling to the sides of the boat.
The Doctrine Of Survival And Doctor Ethics (1992)
Otherwise I think Pentti Linkola is pretty crazy fuck, but a relevant quote for this thread.
>>833388
the quote only makes it sad, since a good chunk of the boats weren't close to capacity in the beginning
>>835443
>unable to google
speaking of autism
>>835443
>doesn't even know about the titanic
what third world shithole did you crawl out of
>pro-adultery, pro-whoring propganda
