Tell me about some interesting history in the Maghreb pre-Islam.
All I'm aware of is Carthage, Numidia, Vandal kingdoms and a few others. Is the area simply too unexplored or is there really not all that much more significant occurances that took place there than what we know?
Any recommended literature on the topic? Any interesting civlizations or cultures besides those I mentioned?
>>820804
Berber as a linguistic family is very new compared to other afroasiatic languages
North Africans were originally Black and the oldest haplogroup is subsaharan
Tebu a nilo-saharan group found in southern Libya and Chad founded the first black african Islamic kingdoms and nations conquering the native Sao culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes
>>820804
The vandal kingdom of just amazing
>German snow niggers originally from Scandinavia
>Living in Carthage, North Africa
>That they conquered
>From the Roman Empire
>mfw Vandals were colonizing North Africa before it was cool
>>821599
They also teamed up with Alan Churkas (ancestors of modern Ossetians)
>>820804
here's a 250 page survey of north african history:
Phillip Naylor- North Africa: A History from Antiquity to the Present
http://bookzz.org/book/818235/f3dbc0
If you're interested in specifics heres annotated bibliographies on:
libya
http://pastebin.com/hK7LFbRq
tunisia
http://pastebin.com/txSqKPhQ
egypt
Egypt
http://pastebin.com/D8jwPCYZ
>>821208
Why aren't they black anymore? Did arabs genocide them?
>>820804
After the Romans left, a bunch of Moors set up their own independent Roman style kingdoms containing the coastal cities left by the power vacuum after the Vandal invasion, and the internal Berber tribes. One of these successfully fought off the Muslims for years before being overwhelmed, with the final battle taking place allegedly in the old Roman amphitheatre in the centre of the capital city.
>>821875
>p53-54
Holy shit i've never read such ridiculous revisionism in all my life.
>the Vandals didn do nuffin
>"transcultural sensibility" and friendship with the Berbers
>>821925
>with the final battle taking place allegedly in the old Roman amphitheatre in the centre of the capital city.
Sounds rad as fuck
Would make a great film
>>821957
Meh I don't see a movie touching the subject of the muslim expansion coming out any time soon.
It would be great though, or even a series.
>>821935
I just read the pages your mentioning and I don't see any problem. All it says was that the Vandals collaborated with the Berbers to consolidate their kingdom in North Africa and that Berbers manned their fleets against Rome. I also don't see any problem with revising our understanding of the Vandals.
However, I do agree that "transcultural sensitivity" is an unnecessary meme word.
>>821208
Evidence? I've heard this claim but I've not seen convincing evidence for it.
>>820804
Alright, so Masinissa's grandson was called Juba, and he was adopted by Augustus' sister after being brought to the capital when Numidia was conquered. He married the daughter of Cleopatra and Mark Anthony, and the two were put in charge of the client Kingdom of Mauritania. Juba started the production of dyes on the canary islands, wrote a book discussing north Africa, and another book about Arabia. He had a son, who ruled for long while after his death, and he had a daughter. When he was assassinated in Rome, and Mauritania was taken over, his daughter Drusilla was married into the royal family of Emessa. The family line lasted onward, in the female line, all the way down to Zenobia.
>>820804
I got one from another thread.
Look into the Tuareg peoples of the area. They were the big reason that Islam spread south of the Sahara. They also camel-trained tons of gold and salt through trade routes no other culture could sustain or even try.
The region did have some great timber forests, but deforestation was rampant there because THEE only trees for miles were along the coast. If you go twenty miles inland, the whole of North Africa is harsh desert. It could not support large civilizations like cooler or more arable regions could.
>>821208
WE WUZ
>>821890
>>822686
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21082907
Roger Blench has a paper showing the 2k year old origin of Berber as a prestige dialect (possibly influenced by Semitic languages) of a much more diverse language.
The second part of the Neolithic Subpluvial brought partially Natufian derived levantine herders
Kanem is Tebu derived.
>>825079
kiffian reconstruction in pic related
>>821208
>North Africans were originally Black
>>825176
>The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
>>821599
The trek of the Vandals from Scandinavia to Carthage is possibly one of my favorite topics in Roman history.
It's a fantastic story. Vandals from Scandinavia/western Russia are chased out by the Huns (as were many barbarian groups on the wrong side of the Germania/Roman border) were pushed across and then had to deal with the Romans and their barbarian mercenaries hounding them from Germany into Gaul, and finally across the Pyrennes into Iberia. And even then they can't settle down as Roman forces still push them and push them, until they reach the straits and go across to North Africa. Finally, they've had enough, and sack Carthage, taking away the Roman breadbasket.
I'm going by what I remember from Peter Heather's Empires and Barbarians (I read this back in 2012, so I'm kind of fuzzy about it).
>>821208
> North Africans were originally Black
WE WUZ
>>825228
Oldest painted human figures found in North Africa part of the Roundhead period.
>>821208
So, would it be safe to assume that modern North Africans aren't "black" due to the Phoenician and later Arab migration across North Africa?
>>825212
It really makes me sad that the Vandal Kingdoms just got conquered by Belisarius and assimilated. Who knows. maybe they could have resisted the initial wave of Arab conquest?
>ywn live in a fully Vandalized christian North Africa
>>825264
No because he's full of shit
>>825264
Arabs really didn't leave a lot of a genetic footprint, neither did the Phonecians.
Most mixing occurred about 8k years ago with levantine herders.
>>825272
>Arians
>Christian
>>825276
DNA is not full of shit, neither is archaeological evidence.
>>825299
You can say memes but be aware "we wuz" can and will get you b&
>>825272
It would have been interesting to see how the Vandals would react to the expanding of the Islamic Caliphates. Maybe Iberia wouldn't have fallen to Islam. Maybe that lessens the tension between Christian Europe and the Muslim Middle East. Maybe the Crusades get pushed back, as the Western European kings don't have conflicts with Muslims, giving them less of a reason to help Byzantium.
>>825278
Ah. Well, that explains it.
>>825283
Well, they are Christian, just a much smaller sect.
>>825310
>Well, they are Christian
No, no they aren't
Non-trinitarians aren't Christians
>>825318
Well that's just patently false.
Unitarians are totally christian.
>>825322
No they aren't
>>825318
>>825323
How are they not? Non-trinitarians still believe in the teachings of Christ, they just have doctrinal difference with main Christian sects. At least give some evidence, so your bait's not too obvious.
>>825334
A Christian is someone who accepts the Nicene Creed
Might as well start calling muslims Christians you dumb nigger
>>821970
check out the umar series, its a 30 part arabic series on the early islamic period.
>>825339
So then you're basically saying every christian before 325, when the Nicene creed was made, wasn't actually christian. That's what you think.
You're saying Paul the apostle wasn't christian.
You're saying the christian martyrs who were killed by the Romans weren't christian.
You're saying Christianity didn't actually exist until some council of Greeks met in Nicaea and decided everybody has to say this one thing.
