What would Spain be like today had the Communist/Anarchist/Republican side won the Spanish Civil War?
What would China be like today had the Nationalists won the Chinese Civil War?
>>814406
Franco industrialize Cataluña and fomented Spanish nationalism
The ones who want Independence are leftist paid by Jews
I would imagine it would had ended like the USSR, there would be no Spain, instead there would be Cataluña, Vasconia, Galicia and Castilla
>What would Spain be like today had the Communist/Anarchist/Republican side won the Spanish Civil War?
Poor as Romania.
>What would China be like today had the Nationalists won the Chinese Civil War?
Rich as Taiwan.
>>814406
I don't really know much about Spain, but for China:
The KMT never really managed to develop a solid base of support even when they were on top in the early to mid 30s, they were more this semi-feudal conglomeration of warlords than a modern state. Chiang himself only directly controlled a corridor that ran roughly from Chungking to Shanghai, all of the rest were adminsitered by various warlords who would offer support to the central KMT, but often in a time, place, or manner of their choosing.
With that unstable of a grip on power, you'll probably see widespread repression and revolt, and if the Communists are knocked out, you still have a bunch of regionalist and other competing "nationalist" elements who would like to see the KMT go down.
You'd probably have intermittant civil war until someone either replaces the KMT or they get their act together, but I'm not entirely sure why they were never able to really assert power in the first place, so I'm not sure what they'd need to do to fix things.
>>814406
>What would China be like today had the Nationalists won the Chinese Civil War?
Warlord Era 2.0, but with KMT uniforms instead of Beiyang Army ones.
Kai-shek was not a leader of a country, he was just a warlord himself. The fact that he sacked Nanjing when he got control of it again after kicking the Japanese out proves it.
Are there any points in history where the US civil war could've broken out sooner or later than in real life? How likely would it have been for it to turn into a proxy war between Britain and France? Could there have been a second civil war shortly after the first?
>>814406
I'm not an expert. But I assume that if the left had won the Spanish Civil War, the USSR would attempt to assert itself further over the peninsula (a la Eastern European satellites; I believe Payne compared Soviet participation in the "revolution" to Yugoslavia in 1946). The western powers wouldn't be pleased, I imagine.
That said, the guerra civil preceded WWII, so I'm not sure how that would have shaken out for the Soviets. Depending on when the leftists won the war, Spain might have entered the war given Soviet influence and then provided a means of access to France? (Despite Spanish neutrality in WWI, of course, which makes it a big assumption.)
In any case, I imagine that a victory for the republic would result in an as precarious or a more precarious fiscal situation for the country as compared to the first franquismo; and as mentioned, the basques would probably splinter off as they had anticipated in '36-'37. I imagine that Cataluna would follow, not sure about Galician separatism at the time
>Alternate History
ITT: Baseless speculation
>>816076
Sorry about all of the "I imagine"s. I also meant to mention that I've heard more than a few people call the spanish civil war the testing grounds of WWII. I watched a documentary in which many volunteers in the International Brigades referred to the conflict as part of the second world war, but despite their pleas to people like FDR, none of the allies entered the war.
Speaking of hypotheticals, what would have happened if the allies jumped in at Spain instead of Poland? I've found myself wondering about this before
>>816076
I'm confused. If you have a Soviet aligned Spain in WW2, why would they enter the war at all? Or do you mean once the war with Germany and the USSR breaks out for the allied side? If that's the case, I have grave, grave doubts of any sort of entry prior to 1943 at the VERY least, (assuming the Germans don't attack them) simply because they would want assurances that they wouldn't be stamped into am ud puddle for daring to help out big buddy USSR.
>Speaking of hypotheticals, what would have happened if the allies jumped in at Spain instead of Poland?
Not sure what you mean, can you clarify?
>>816540
I assume he means the allies going to war with the fascists in Spain instead of waiting for the nazis to invade Poland.
>>816817
Die :^)
>Paris 1919
>Anatolia is handed over to Greece
>what happens next?
>>816863
World war 2: Turkish hitler edition
Instead of da joos we get da muzzies, 82 years early.
>>816817
I'm not wrong
>>814424
>Franco industrialize Cataluña and fomented Spanish nationalism
You literally know nothing about Spain history, you should buy pic related
Probably poorer than Argentina and Chile
Have you seen blade runner?
The same shithole it is today but with big mausoleums dedicated to Stalin and co instead of Franco.
>>818980
Spain is first world, man.
>Nationalist trash wiped clean from the face of the country
>ethnic minority groups given their independence
>Republican Spain serves as a base of operations for the allies during WWII
>Invasion of Nazi-occupied France carried out far earlier than in real life
>Germany crushed far earlier than in real life
Would have been pretty great tbqh pham.
>>814424
>The ones who want Independence are leftist paid by Jews
What is your source for this?
>>819100
What's wrong with Nationalism, desu senpai?
>>819100
>implying that the Germs wouldn't just invade the whole thing and giveit to Salazar
wew
>>819113
>not knowing that nationalism is a tool of the Bourgeoisie used to divide the international Proletariat
>>819113
Not his fault that that is the name that the Rebels chose.
>>819130
What's wrong with the bourgeoisie?
>>819125
>fighting through the Pyrenees
Wew
L A D
A
D
>>819146
Good worker!
The bourgeoisie are your friends! You should thank your boss every day for employing you! If you work hard enough you can be just like them one day!
>>814406
Someone would probably claim the mandate of heaven.
>>819147
>fighting THE SPANISH through the Pyrenees
Fixed that for you
>>819159
???? I've known plenty carpenters who have become their own bosses
>>814406
Hitler and Moose attempt to invade Spain, the war ends even earlier with yet another theater for the Axis to fight in. Post-war, Spain becomes an officially neutral power but is necessarily reliant on the USSR and the US/NATO power spends no expense to economically and politically sabotage the country, including various assassination campaigns. Basically Cuba but earlier in history.
Assuming that the Communists are non-existent, China is splintered into various states with their own mini emperor-presidents with complex alliances between the Americans and Soviets, including states that are neutral and isolationist.
>>814424
>Franco industrialize Cataluña and fomented Spanish nationalism
>the franco industrialized cataluña and pais vasco meme
>The ones who want Independence are leftist paid by Jews
>the conspiración judeo-masónica meme
two CLASSIC nationalist memes
>>819179
BRAVO ESPAÑA
>>819130
>Believing that appreciating your culture, your identity, your history somehow plays into the hands of the "bourgeois"
>Believing Eritrea is the same as Netherlands, to give an example
>Believing in a John Lennon fairy tale
>Believing in the "bourgeois and proletariat" construction meant to divide people
>Believing private property and private initiative somehow is a bad thing
>Believing LTV
Dude, the commie narrative got you...
>>819125
>Nazis opening ANOTHER front while still fighting in other two
>>819196
>>Believing that appreciating your culture, your identity, your history somehow plays into the hands of the "bourgeois"
Yes. All "MUH ANCESTORS" and "MUH TRADISHUNS" leads to is division and strife.
>>Believing Eritrea is the same as Netherlands, to give an example
No one said that.
>>Believing in the "bourgeois and proletariat" construction meant to divide people
>simple descriptions of people's relations to production are 'constructions'
>>Believing LTV
>muh marginal utility
>>819197
implying killing the Spanish counts as a front
more like rectruit training, tbf
>>819130
Also
>Believing that Nationalism is a bourgeouis tool when there is Left Nationalism rendering your claim fallacious
>>819233
Left nationalism is pretty stupid tbqh.
>>819214
>Mocking the appreciation of your national identity and then claiming that you didn't say that Eritrea and Germany are the same
If you understand that Germany and Eritrea are different, how can you still mock national differences? "Dude, peace and love, Imagine All the People, nations are just imaginary divisions by the bourgeois".
>Somehow owning property and paying a worker a wage is appropiating the worker's earn
If it's your property, you're not substracting anything away from him, you're just exchanging his labor for your capital.
>>819245
nearly all independentist movements in western europe are leftist
>>819255
People are different, but reinforcing those differences and insulating one's own community often (if not usually) leads to national chauvinism, which is bad.
>If it's your property, you're not substracting anything away from him, you're just exchanging his labor for your capital.
It shouldn't be 'your property', that's the whole point.
>>819245
It debunks his whole "nationalism is a tool of the bourgeois". Also anarchocapitalism believes in classes and it's not nationalist.
>>819272
>People are different, but reinforcing those differences and insulating one's own community often (if not usually) leads to national chauvinism
Oh, that "nationalism is chauvinism" meme again. Being in favor of your land, your history, your identity, your culture doesn't mean you hate other nations or that your feel more entitled than other nations. If you think nationalism is such a bad thing, would you move to Iraq?
>It shouldn't be 'your property', that's the whole point
Why not? If you or your father worked for years and made capital, why can't your have it?
Inb4 "evil bourgeois!!!!!!" I want to say I'm a "proletariat" according to marxism.
>>819130
>not knowing that Marxism is a tool of the Jews used to divide the European national communities
>>819315
European national communities have been dividing and killing themselves for millennia, far longer than Jews have been present in the continent in any significant number, much less created Marxism.
>>819310
>muh hard work
Because your father working hard gives neither him nor you the right to exploit anyone else.
The Bourgeoisie aren't really evil, anyway. They're just acting in their class interest.
>>819229
And after surrendering, Naziboos claim to have been fighting agaisnt the whole world.
>>814429
>Poor as Romania
Nice joke man. The Franko era was horrible.
>>819323
>muh exploitation
It's literally exchanging your labor for capital, voluntary trade. As long as the government makes sure that there's no unemployment, that there's decent wages, that there's decent work hours, there's no reason to implement public property of the means of production.
>>819353
>muh voluntaryism
It is coercion.
>>819381
>It is coercion
Explain.
>>819381
Tell me then, in your utopia where the means of production are owned by all; what is to stop the majority A from selling their portion of the means of production to a minority B, because B's talents with regard to the management of capital are greater than A's.
>>819424
You must either work for a capitalist or you must not live.
And the "lel le marxists think that having to work for a living is exploitation i guess nature is exploitative" meme is nonsense.
The choice in capitalism is not between working for a living and starving, but between working and having your labor stolen and starving.
>>819438
What portions? The MoP don't get portioned out to people.
>>819439
How can this be true in any modern capitalist economy with a welfare state?
>>819449
Whose bank account does money go into? The state's?
>>819461
There isn't any money.
>>819452
There is still no option where you don't have to give up some of your labor to a capitalist.
You could start a coop, but that's not a realistic option for most people.
>>819439
You can work in a freelance way, you can work emplying someone, you can work being employed or you can work forming a cooperative.
In a society where the government makes sure that no one starves or stays unemployed or works for a poor salary, I don't see how being employed is a bad thing. You really think that in North Korea life quality is better than Norway, for example?
>>819494
I thought this was said as an exaggeration. Can people really live off of benefits?
>>819522
I grew up rather poor, and though I never had to live off of benefits myself, I knew a lot of people who did.
You can live off of them for a while, but it fucking sucks.
I don't know many people so lazy that they would prefer a life on welfare to searching for a job.
The idea that welfare recipients are just living it up at the expense of society is a retarded upper middle class meme.
>>819522
In the UK, as long as you have some some nebulous reason to get extra benefits (be a single mum, have a "disability" etc.) it's quite possible to do so. Just look at /r9k/ for proof.
The Conservative government's reforms have made it harder though.
>>819532
>The idea that welfare recipients are just living it up at the expense of society is a retarded upper middle class meme.
You mean they don't get much money or that it's detrimental to how people feel because of living off of welfare?
I think governments should make deals with companies to employ people in exchange for concessions. For example, if there is a need for making a new road, the state can offer a paving company the job if said company employs a certain amount of people looking for jobs. Not sure if governments already do that, but if not, I think it might help tackle unemployment.
>>819558
And do they do that for years or is it temporary stuff? Just curious, don't worry, not planning to go to UK or anywhere else to get benefits, lol
By the way, I think a good measure to tackle unemployment would be the one I said in this comment: >>819558
Do they do something like that over there?
>>819566
>they don't get much money
You have to live in a tiny cramped apartment or house, eat shit food (when you have food at all), and then deal with people making fun of you or calling you a parasite because you're on welfare.
>>819596
It's fucked up that people who are actually disabled have to go through not being able to eat sometimes. There should be more rigurous control of the benefits receivers.
>>819566
That doesn't really make any sense. Who do you think builds the roads today? Robots?
If you force contractors to hire "unemployed people" as workmen, the workmen that they currently hire will lose their jobs. There can only be as many workmen as there is demand for workmen.
>>819615
Maybe they will need more workers. People retire, companies expand, etc. Companies don't keep the same workers all the time. If they did, unemployment wouldn't be solved anywhere. Here, concessions by the government to companies to do work by raffles, companies win concessions. What I suggest is that a company might earn concessions, not because of raffles, but through giving employment.
>>819741
are achieved through raffles*
>>819592
Depends. If you've got a genuine disability (or can convince the government you do), then it's permanently livable, if not especially pleasant. Same with single mums and council houses, though the kids have a good chance of turning out as chavs. Unemployment is difficult to live off. Student loans are alright- I can live off mine, but had to jump through some hoops- it's based off your parents' earnings, even if they don't support you.
>>819741
Companies hire as many people as they need, that is the invisible hand in action.
The government gives contracts to whichever company can offer the cheapest price. What you are suggesting is that contracts should be given to less efficient companies that employ more people than is necessary, which is a waste of money.
>>819159
>I am a loser so I'll shit on other people for being more succesful
>ownership of the means shouldn't come from actually purchasing them, you just get them because you're such a poor widdle boy
Go learn how to code or work in the entertainment industry, then redistribute your wealth, faggot.
>>819214
>desceiptions of people's relations are valid
>desriptions of the relations between cultures, of their wildly differing values and ways of living are somehow invalid
Kill self mr faggoto
