What would have happened if Tokugawa Iemitsu didn't close the ports of Japan and allowed extensive foreign trade with European powers throughout the 1600s, 1700s, and early 1800s, eliminating the closed country (Sakoku) policy from the equation of Edo Period Japan?
>>812254
The Shimazu and Mori fucking hated the Tokugawa, so they would've started shit way sooner, they probably would've lost any war they tried to fight especially in the 1600s, assuming they don't have foreign troops fighting for them
>>812254
I read that before that policy he was considering an invasion of the Philippines.
>>812271
Considering how fucking awful the invasion of Korea went, I doubt it
>>812263
>>812254
Even more dangerously, you might see a situation like with the Ashante and in India, where European or European-trained forces come to dominate the battlefield, and the nations that use them come to first become dependent and then outright client states to European Nations until all of the nation becomes an official colony.
If Japan can neither retain its unity or keep the Europeans out, there's a possibility it could be another colonial India, belonging to whichever European power floods the Japanese with enough weapons and officers to overwhelm the shogunate and its enemies.
>>812263
Do you think those two clans could get Portuguese or Spanish support to overthrow the Shogun? The Mori and the Shimazu weren't Christians, but they lived in close contact with them via trade. What incentive would Portuguese troops have in providing direct military aid to those clans when Japan was already at peace? Could we have seen the rise of a Christian Japan?
>>812275
Honestly the land war was going very well until the Japanese navy got curbstomped. The Japanese completely rolled over whatever regular army the Koreans had early on. The Chinese regulars helped to stem the Japanese advance, but even then they still lost as often as they won.
>>812276
That's probably what would've happened had the Otomo gotten the seat of the Shogunate
>>812271
>>812275
>Invading the Spaniards.
>Couldn't even invade Korea
If the Japanese navy was completely toppled by a few fucking turtle ships, how fucked would the Japanese be facing a war with Spanish Galleons?
>>812283
>What incentive would Portuguese troops have in providing direct military aid to those clans when Japan was already at peace?
I imagine fucktons of money and a trade deal that favored the Portuguese, possibly reserved land for some sort of colony
>>812297
It wasn't just turtle ships, Admiral Yi was too determined and was too competant to let his country fall.
>>812276
>>812299
What was the main ambition for European trade into Japan? Tea? Wood? Paper? Last I checked that place was pretty resource-poor. I have no idea why European powers would waste their time on a remote fucking Island when they had China right next to them and closer.
>>812297
tbf Panokseons and turtle ships are pretty well-armed, even when compared to the a contemporary spanish galleon, and much of YI's success comes from using local geography and coastal waters to his advantage.
>>812310
European powers take claim over a lot of places that are resource poor, colonialism is a dick measuring contest
>>812310
Japan actually is fairly irch in copper and silver, and the Japanese as soldiers were reasonably well-regarded. I forget where I read this, but iirc Francis Xavier's reason for prosletyzing to Japan was so that a christian Japan could crusade into China and open them to Christianity. Nobunaga and Hideyoshi certainly wouldn't have minded that invading china part.
>>812297
The shogun had already called on Dutch naval support at shimabara. In fact the poor military showing of his forces there might have been one reason he abandoned the project.
>>812310
I think japan was producing a good amount of gold during that period
>people think the Japanese invasion of Korea was stopped by Koreans
LEL NO
They would've ended up like India.
>>812254
The main goal was to prevent the Spanish, Portuguese and others from selling arms to potentially troublesome clans as they did during the preceding civil war. When the Americans forced open the ports the exact same thing happened, however the technology allowed the new central government to exert overwhelming power over the entire island ending factionalism.
>>812333
This bottom sentence sounds like bullshit. Did the guy not realize China was objectively better in overall military strength? 200 million versus 15?
>>812841
That didn't stop the Mongols or Manchus.
>>812841
Well, the Spanish thought they could conquer Ming China with a few thousand men for the same reason so it's not out of the question that he thought the same thing.
But yeah, it'd be a disaster regardless of numbers. Ming China was a pretty formidable foe for the Japanese.
>>812276
>ayy japs had sticks n swords n shiet and didnt even know how to volley fire
>>812798
To be fair, there was one pretty good Korean dude. The rest were shit though.
>>812841
Apparently it was not Xavier, but
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirishitan#Military_activities
>Missionaries were not reluctant to take military action if they considered it an effective way to Christianize Japan. They often associated military action against Japan with the conquest of China. They thought that well-trained Japanese soldiers who had experienced long civil wars would help their countries conquer China. For example, Alessandro Valignano said to the Philippine Governor that it was impossible to conquer Japan because the Japanese were very brave and always received military training but that Japan would benefit them when they would conquer China.
Then again the section also has a note that says it needs better citations.
>>812865
>ayy japs had sticks n swords n shiet and didnt even know how to volley fire
I didn't say that, but the various Indian states had guns, rockets and heavy artillery in the 17th and 18th centuries, and yet they still valued the East India Company's western-trained Sepoys very highly, partly because of their discipline but also because of their political reliability.
Tokugawa died the same year the Thirty Year's War began and the West began to pull ahead in weapons doctrine and technology; I wouldn't be surprised if Western-drilled Ashigaru played a similar role as time went on.
>>812884
apparently I was wrong, Tokugawa died two years before the thirty year's war began.
>>812333
That was the Portuguese crown's reason. The Pope didn't want to militarily invade China.
>>812284
The 1593 offensive forced the Japanese to abandon Pyongyang,Kaesong and Hanseong hardly insignificant. Ming did far worse in sieges compared to field battles.
>>813649
>. Ming did far worse in sieges
The siege of Pyongyang was a fucking total victory what crack are you smoking?
>>813661
He's referring to Ulsan and Sacheon. Heavy Chinese losses.
>>813661
I didn't make myself clear,I was referencing the botched sieges during the second Japanese invasion.(Ulsan,Sacheon,Suncheon)
>>812254
The Japanese strategy to deal with the nanban was to ally with a naval power that was strong enough to deter other powers, but too weak to ever threaten Japan. They gained the alliance by giving the Dutch a monopoly on trade between Japan and Europe.
>>812276
Why was it dangerous? Wasn't it dangerous when some sociopathic daimyo boiled Japanese peasants alive for their amusement or continued to tax them during a famine forcing them to watch their children and parents starve?
>>813712
>Why was it dangerous?
For the Tokugawa Shogunate, which decided such policies.
>Wasn't it dangerous when some sociopathic daimyo boiled Japanese peasants alive for their amusement or continued to tax them during a famine forcing them to watch their children and parents starve?
Excessive taxation and gross mistreatment of civilians are not problems exclusive to Japanese Daimyo.
