The word "proselytize" comes from a term meaning "to convert to Judaism".
>Forced conversions occurred under the Hasmonean Empire. The Idumaens were forced to convert to Judaism, either by threats of exile, or threats of death, depending on the source.[22][23]
>Maurice Sartre has written of the "policy of forced Judaization adopted by Hyrcanos, Aristobulus I and Jannaeus”, who offered "the conquered peoples a choice between expulsion or conversion,”[25]
>William Horbury has written that “The evidence is best explained by postulating that an existing small Jewish population in Lower Galilee was massively expanded by the forced conversion in c.104 BCE of their Gentile neighbours in the north.”[26]
>In 2009 the BBC defended a claim that in 524CE the Yemeni Jewish Himyar tribe, led by King Dhu Nuwashad offered Christian residents of a village in Saudi Arabia the choice between conversion to Judaism or death and that 20,000 Christians had then been massacred stating that "The production team spoke to many historians over 18 months, among them Nigel Groom, who was our consultant, and Professor Abdul Rahman Al-Ansary [former professor of archaeology at the King Saud University in Riyadh]."[27] Inscriptions documented by Yousef himself shows the great pride he expressed after massacring more than 22,000 Christians in Zafar and Najran.[28]
my question is in next post
>>800872
When did Judaism become a closed religion that was against proselytizing? I know they were forced to stop proselytizing in a lot of instance, but they still carried on such activities at least into the Middle Ages, since the Khazars converted in large numbers. Now conversion to Judaism is strongly discouraged, but it was pretty common in ancient Judaism, even in the Bible (Exodus 12:38). There are many passages about foreigners among the Jews and it is said to treat them "as one born among you" (Leviticus 19:34) , which indicates the foreigners having converted to Judaism and needing acceptance, since Jews wouldn't even eat with non-Jews, and treating someone as a born Jew who wasn't a convert doesn't seem likely.
Basically what I'm asking is, when did it start to be a thing in the Talmud to discourage proselytizing?
after the second destruction of the temple
>>800887
Did you read all of the OP? The last greentext was 524 CE.
>>800903
it was widespread all around the Mediterranean in the bc but it slowly regressed toward its neighbors and finally all together
the ethipians and the himyar kingdoms were known converts
>>800924
>the ethipians and the himyar kingdoms were known converts
So what? Does that make them non-Jewish?
>>800874
>Basically what I'm asking is, when did it start to be a thing in the Talmud to discourage proselytizing?
When they compiled the Babylonian Talmud, year 600-something.
>>800957
Can you show me where it says that in the Babylonian Talmud?
>>800946
We are Jews because we are Jews, it's a mitzvot to perceive a convert as a convert.
>>800924
Uh we are Jewish because of Nubian/Egyptian Jews migrating to Ethiopia.
>>800872
1. Judaism is not nearly as static as people would have you believe 2. The process of conversion has evolved over the years 3. All slaves of Jews become Jewish after being freed 4. All Jewish groups come from converted populations intermarrying with largely male Jewish migrants 5. In some nations conversion equaled death or humiliation, it was dangerous for our communities to convert those who even desire it and so eventually things slowed down.
>>801972
None of this really answers the question of who was the first rabbi included in the Talmud who said that proselytizing is a no-no./
>>801972
Your biggest problem as a group is your inability to distinguish Catholics, who murder you by the millions, from Christians, who donate money to Israel by the millions.
>>801986
It doesn't matter, just because one rabbi in the Talmud was against doesn't mean its authoritative.
That's not how the Talmud works.
>>801994
Protestants were pretty terrible most of history, evangelical Christians only support Israel because they believe their false prophet will come sooner if they support Israel. Eventually rebuild the Temple and basically kill all muslims.
Then there are the Jews for Jesus bunch :-/
Antiochus IV did nothing wrong.
>>800874
> When did Judaism become a closed religion that was against proselytizing?
Some point in the Middle Ages.
There a Jewish genetic researcher who is getting all kinda shit from his fellow Jews because he claims his studies have shown that most Jews in fact have a very tenuous connection to the Roman Era Israelites.
He suggests that the survival of the Jews after the Roman diaspora in the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D., is mostly due to active proselytizing by scattered remnants of Jews and conversions to Judaism by the native populations in Europe, N.Africa and Mediterranean.
Until the Middle Ages, Judaism was actively looking for converts and would take anybody and everybody in a desperate attempt to maintain it’s existence in the face of overwhelming numbers of Christians and Muslims they lived among.
Without proselytizing and conversions, the Jewish people wouldn’t have survived, as their numbers were simply too small and scattered to maintain the culture via endogamy (marrying within a specific ethnic group).
>>802076
How many rabbis are needed to making a ruling authoritative? When was the ruling against proselytizing accepted as authoritative?
>>802526
If there are various opinions we can choose any of them.
There are few if any things that are universally agreed upon in every aspect or way.
>>801972
>Uh we are Jewish because of Nubian/Egyptian Jews migrating to Ethiopia.
This is certainly a rare occurrence. What do you think of these people?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apTouMWnMGo
>>802564
Can you make up your own opinion too?
I'm asking when this became the predominant opinion.
>>802516
Didn't he claim that he found a painting in Rome of Roman soldiers carrying away the Ark of the Covenant or something?
I watched a video of him giving a lecture, he made a very good case for his theory. Got shouted at by a Zionist in the audience toward the end but it was really interesting stuff.
>>801972
>Judaism is not nearly as static as people would have you believe
Then how can they claim to be any more of a legitimate successor of the ancient religion than Christianity?
>>800874
>proselytizing
From the Ancient Greek προσήλυτος (prosḗlutos, “one that has arrived at [a place]”, “stranger”, “sojourner”; “one who has come over to Judaism”, “convert”, “proselyte”), from προσέρχομαι (prosérkhomai).
>>803468
It wasn't rare, Jews were at elephantine and filled the Nile to Lake Tana.
I see BHIs everyday since I live in NYC. if you actually move past "EDOMITE KHAZAR MOTHAFUCKAHS GON GAIN SOME INSIGHT TAHDAY" you'll find out many are well read individuals. What they read is actually quite anachronistic, the same sources /pol/ uses in race sometimes. I find it quite fascinating how in spite of similar base knowledge how varied the results can be.
I'm not going to watch the video because I know everything some will say but I also want to state Black Hebrew Israelites aren't unified in beliefs and can be quite varied group by group or individual by individual.
We have an old group from Chicago, Ghana and Liberia in Israel. They've been there like 30 years; they practice polygamy, veganism and are renowned singers.
>>803485
I mean yeah you can make to ur own opinion buy that's more reform or people who pick and choose. Different views are held by different rabbis and different sects, there really isn't a singular Jewish view of anything "two Jews, three views"
>>803598
Well Judaism is a successor to an ancient Semitic faith, I see "Judaism" as an umbrella term to denote many variations throughout time of a mostly monotheistic Judaism.
The Christian faith comes from mostly one particular branch of Judaism.
>>803696
>The Christian faith comes from mostly one particular branch of Judaism.
Rabbinic Judaism does too, doesn't it? As does Karaite Judaism?
>>803755
Well Christianity comes from a group of Jews who believe in the Messiah. Christianity is inseparable from the foundation of Judaism.
>>803815
Right, it claims to be the legitimate successor of ancient Judaism, and sees Rabbinic Judaism as false.
>>803828
Uh, that's a reach. I wouldn't say false.
>>803511
Isn't it obvious Romans would carry the ark? They sacked the 2nd temple and the ark was returned there by Persians when Babylonian Exile ended.
>>804069
That's not as important as the implication that the Jews were genocided to the point that they had to proselytize around the ancient world, which goes against mainstream narratives of Jewish late antiquity.
>>803908
Christianity most certainly hold that Rabbinic Judaism's rejection of core Christian doctrines is unwarranted.
>>803908
They reject Christ, in fact they have an extremely negative opinion of him.
>>803908
The Orthodox, I mean, who hold the position all Christians held until the last century.
>>804474
Orthodox Judaism is the only kind that isn't a bunch of bullshit, the rest are to Judaism as Mormonism is to Christianity.
>>804474
How do jews usually view converts? I know there must be some diverging opinions but most common jews probably have some sort of general perception on this
>>804483
They don't recognize them at all, depending. Orthodox Jews, for instance, do not recognize converts to conservative or reform as Jewish.
>>804474
Why you killed Jesus then?
>>804482
You have no clue what you're talking about
>>804483
Karaites are allowing conversion again, in the US conversion is very common amongst all groups save for Haredi were it is rare amongst the poor but uncommon amongst more wealthy men who convert wives.
>>804486
Officially yes but socially if you know the prayers and clearly have an understanding and place of Jewish culture and in the Jewish community folks don't really care beyond opening wine bottles and doing very specific tasks.
>>804474
Why are you so bad at answering questions?
Why are all Jews on /his/ so bad at answering questions?
Why do I find this while "2 Jews, 3 interpretations" thing to be such an ethical copout?
>>804507
>You have no clue what you're talking about
Yes I do. To have an organized school of Judaism that says belief in God is not important is not Judaism, how can you possible worship God if you do not believe in him? And how can you be a practicing Jew if you do not worship God? Such Jews would be considered dangerous criminals in the religion for most of its history. If Judaism can stand for anything, then it is absolutely meaningless, I can just claim to be a Jew and say Judaism is about worshiping pigs and I as a rabbi have declared such, and I am just as valid as every other school of Judaism. Is this the case? No.
monthly reminder that /pol/ is the jews of 4chan
>>804521
In the sense that /pol/ is the active force motivating the history of 4chan, you're right :^)
>>804511
WE ARENT A HIVE MIND AND HAVE BEEN ARGUING WITH EACH OTHER FOR THREE THOUSAND YEARS OVER WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG
What don't you get?
>>804519
Reform and Conservative Jews stress the belief in Adonai, Humanist Jews and Secular Jews do not.
This is what I mean by you having no clue what's being talked about.
>>804529
>Rabbinic Judaism demanded action–the fulfillment of the commandments–not the assertion of specific beliefs. Perhaps the most striking example of this position is a commentary on the verse in Jeremiah, which states: “[They] have forsaken me and have not kept my Torah.” To which the Pesikta D’Rav Kahana, a 5th- to 7th-century midrash, glosses: “If only they had forsaken me and kept my Torah.”
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/must-a-jew-believe-in-god/
>>804544
MJL is not authoritative, no one is authoritative. Understanding that the Torah is living and breathing does not mean people don't believe in g-d.
You literally are arguing about something you know nothing about.
>>804562
>no one is authoritative
According to which authority?
>>804562
>no one is authoritative
This is my critique, stop acting like I'm complaining about a hivemind when I'm actually complaining about decentralization of doctrine.
>>801171
My point is not using the Talmud as a source for forbidding or discouraging conversion, but for the discussion on the salvation of the Gentiles.
If the Gentiles can be saved without converting them to Judaism, you lack the drive to proselytize that Christianity and Islam have - and, especially, you aren't likely to see forced conversions.
Sanhedrin 105a says righteous Gentiles have a place in the world to come. The Seven Noahide Laws tell you how to be a righteous Gentile, it's in Sanhedrin 56a IRC.
These beliefs do predate the compilation of the Talmud (i.e. Tosefta), but you need Judaism to go fully Rabbinical and fully Talmudic for a sufficient amount of Jews to reinterpret proselytism into something that isn't that necessary.
>>804594
>beauty
I don't think it's very beautiful, I think it leaves room for anyone to weasel their way out if anything and have a good conscience about it. That Judaism is so bound by its law is the most disgusting thing about the religion. Other than this insufferable legalism, I don't have any issues with Jews or Jewish philosophy.
>>804588
*IIRC
>>804604
It's like paganism or Hinduism where there is no dogma, and the closest thing to a centralized authority is an entire ethnicity.
>>804604
Dude it's not that deep, no need to sperg about it
>>804594
>We all agree everyone else is incorrect, wrong, uneducated, undereducated, simple minded, stubborn and/or ignorant
Are you all right, or just one? Or is a matter of relativism?
>>804633
Depends on who you talk to.
I believe we are all right based on our beliefs and the squabbling distracts from our collective desire to live in a fair and kind world.
We all believe in Tikkun Olam.
>>804655
>I believe we are all right based on our beliefs
So relativism
>>804655
>We all believe in Tikkun Olam
Not even Tikkun Olam is universal, lol
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/06/07/the-fallacy-delusion-and-myth-of-tikkun-olam/
>>804659
Again that's just my own hippie dippy beliefs, talk to others and you'll get a different take probs
>>804663
Yep, we all believe it but how we interpret it varies greatly :)
>>804664
So relativism
>>804671
Except when it's not.
>>804685
Yes, that's how relativism works. The relativism is also relative.
>>804702
Yeah it actually isn't serious. Not to most of us who practice it at least, are you one of those people that believe we secretly run the world or atleast steer it greatly and if so how does it feel to believe in such things? Do you feel disempowered?
Also how do you believe you differentiate from WE WUZ who believe in Whites unjustly ruling the world and every nations?
>>804702
>How is an ethnic group anything like a centralized authority?
It really isn't, it's more of a "you need to get your Judaism from the Jews, Roman paganism from the Romans, and Hinduism from the Hindus."
There's no greater authority beyond that, you follow your teacher and the tradition thereof, most people's religious experience works like that even for Christians and Muslims (i.e. the four schools of Sunni Islam view each other as valid, so "follow you Imam whichever you get"), ancestral religions are more direct about it.
>>804717
>Yeah it actually isn't serious
Then why is the State of Israel so serious?
I find this whole thing odd too, why is your religion a joke to you? This just doesn't make sense, you're raised in a Jewish household with Jewish family members and Jewish culture and traditions and you don't think Judaism is at all serious?
>>802516
Can you name who you are refring to?
>>804732
It's serious depending on whom you ask. Again, there is no unified opinion.
>>804754
That's such a fucking copout. No wonder you have a hard time taking it seriously.
>>804754
All religions are like this, I don't get why anon can't grasp it.
>>804764
No religion is unified across the board
>>804732
Israel was founded by secular communists/radicals and has always been a majority Secular society who loath haredi and constantly battle Orthodoxy in law.
I believe in Adonai but there is no heaven in judaism, hell isn't all that real either nor pertinent. I sing the songs and prayers dearest to me and continue on with my life. What is there to say, I don't live in a community where my obedience to a particular rabbi's World view can mean my inclusion or excommunication.
I believe in no Messiah because messianism is not my truth and find living life and doing the work of g-d is one of honesty and happiness.
Do you think we all have overlords we answer to and heed as we dominate the world lol
>>804786
Many Jews believe in the existence of both Gehenna and Sheol (which are still distinct in Orthodox Christianity, Hades refers to Sheol, Gehenna is still called Gehenna).
>>804786
>No religion is unified across the board
Not my point, my point is that yours is morally bankrupt.
>Muh law
>>804809
Dude you're talking about Israel not Judaism. Secular Jews aren't affected by religious Jewish law in civilian life outside of Israel.
>>804802
Orthodox Jews maybe, I was taught there is an afterlife where you either feel the separation or closeness of "source" but it's not like you are an angel in heaven and the separation of it does exist is temporary.
>>804822
>Dude you're talking about Israel not Judaism
No, I'm talking about Judaism in general--any moral system that grounds itself in a legal code and only a legal code is morally bankrupt. Religious Jews decide what's right and wrong based on the opinions of people who admit they have no special authority and ground their judgments in ancient texts written in a context completely alien to the modern Jew (i.e. Babylon). Secular Jews don't even have that obligation.
>/pol/ wants le happy merchant bogeyman
>gets triggered when jewbro is chill and religion isn't le evil Talmud Mean Kampf said it was
I am quite amazed how people want a tiny minority religion which was cast out and expanded over thousands of miles and totally isolated to be ideologically consistent when they couldn't even communicate with one another for hundreds of years and didn't have identical texts, let alone interpretations, to boot
Checks out
>inb4 JIDF! JIDF! JIDF!
>>804835
>Someone's criticizing a Jew, better call everybody ITT an idiot and a fascist
>>804835
Hey so tbf there was always a lot of communication and desire to do things "correctly" from more fatherly sources, but then there also was the tendency of more senior communities with sagely scholars going to Jewish communities far and wide to tell them they are wrong and/or that they need to stop copying their secular neighbors (like Maimonides getting upset about Jewish cross dressing boy wedding dancers in Egypt) but like there still is that whole two Jews three views thing going on.
Plus people sometimes just said fuck it or just stopped believing it seriously.
>>804833
You mean how we came to seek the advice of Sages/Old dudes who spent their entire lives questioning and studying old scrolls? Every religion does that, every faith does this.
No one in any faith has a literal connection to g-d, everyone makes their best guesses or goes to more studied people with enough context and information available to provide guidance.
>>804861
>No one in any faith has a literal connection to g-d
*tips yarmulke*
>>804861
>No one in any faith has a literal connection to g-d
What is Holy Communion
>>804822
>Orthodox Jews maybe
They're really the only sort who are interested in some of continuity with ancient Judaism. The other variants are not continuations of ancient Judaism, they are completely new religions and invented. I don't think Orthodox Judaism is a continuation of ancient Judaism, since Christianity is, properly speaking, but Orthodox Judaism does make considerable effort staying true to the faith they think was handed down by God through Moses.
>>804914
Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism. It's a different faith and trajectory, it's fervent practioners merely seek legitimacy by claims of being a true successor of any sorts to the faiths of the temple.
Orthodox Judaism is a reactionary response to the Reform movement in the 19th century.
Oh shit you legit think you can communicate directly with g-d
>>804949
The claims actually come from the fact they were originally a Jewish heresy that became bigger then the religion that it was originally a part of and eventually influenced by foreign cultures over hundreds of years.
>>804835
Not really, he's just being frustratingly vague. He's been posting all trough the thread, but he hasn't given any insight into the topic.
>>804959
Doesn't make them the religious successor.
Judaism has numbers far beyond the Canaanite faiths of the Levant, doesn't make Judaism their successor.
>>804949
Christianity is the one legitimate faith there is, and it is a continuation. By constantly stresses how much Judaism changes and is relative and no one has any authority, you are undermining it as having any claim whatsoever to a continuity with ancient Judaism. Ancient Jews took their religion EXTREMELY seriously.
Orthodox Judaism is a reactionary response to people trying to drastically alter the substance of the Jewish religion, yes.
I absolutely can, in the sense of being a communicant with His Body.
>>804972
We are the successor because our religion is about preservation of God's religion as he intended it, whereas yours is about innovation and relativism for the sake of man.
I can't believe I wasted my time talking to a christfag whose questioning was all basically to show the legitimacy of Christianity as the successor of Judaism.
>>805014
Hey, Ashkenazi Jew here, I know that at some point the """real""" Jews absorbed a small African population into their own, I know you've touched down on it, I was just wondering if you had any idea why that was.
>>805014
I wanna disagree with you, but >>805008 kind of shows you're right. Doesn't matter your religion, when you're having an interfaith discussion the worst thing you can do is start spouting off that you have THE ONE TRUE RELIGION because it doesn't prove shit and shuts down dialogue.
I bet he's one of the Orthodox fuckers.
>>805014
No, my point is that your extremely liberal brand of Judaism in enforcing that. If anything, I am doing more than are to defend your faith, because having you speak for Jews is like having an Episcopalian speak for Christians. Jews believe in an "evolving", religion, yes, but they don't just pull things out of their asses and say you can't know nuffin, they look extensively for precedent and pour over commentary by different rabbbis to find the correct opinion, which they disagree on all the time of course, but the way you present it is just wrong. No, your liberal brand of Judaism does not carry as much weight as serious Judaism. You probably support gay marriage.
>>805057
To be fair, Ethiopian Jews have had, historically, different beliefs about some things than mainstream rabbinic Judaism, so maybe that's where he's coming from.
>>805061
That is very different, that is because they were tremendously isolated from Judaism, which was "evolving" during their whole isolation. The differences have to do with that, they don't have anything to do with relativist crap. In fact, Ethiopian Jews change tremendously after migrating to Israel, because they wanted to get in with correct beliefs and practice.
>>805064
Karaites are still karaites in Israel, if have to fact check you on that. I'm sure many did "assimilate" but I'm also sure many cultural and religious differences do exist for many in their community.
>>805071
Ethiopian Judaism became insulated before Karaite Judaism was even a thing
>>800872
they were forbidden to do so by the countries they were in and somewhere along the line it became a custom to stay out of trouble with the locals
>>805014
oh the joys of 4chan. I've appreciated your shared info though
>>805037
You might respond with WE WUZ but the fact of the matter is from the time of Natufians there was a very very established African presence in Israel. That got diluted of course but there was always migration from the Nile and Arabia Felix along the Red Sea.
Tsipporah wife of Moses was a Cushitic herding woman, in the story of exodus non-Jews migrated with them out of Egypt. While I don't take it literal I find the story of ethnogenesis including African populations to be established "canon".
>>805044
It's just so inane you know
>>805057
Honey, I don't care.
>>805061
>>805064
>>805071
>>805082
So this is just my view but here it is, the Elephantine Jews themselves a judiac but not rabbinical Jewish community having escaped Egyptian persecution assimilated into the Cushitic-South Arabian Semitic (it diverged from Levantine Semitic at an early date) sociocultural milieu that later adopted Christianity.
There were elements of Habesha society that while nominally accepting Jesus considered themselves to still be Jews solidifying sometime in the 14th century.
But then you have figures like Yodit and groups such as Qemant Agaw.
Ethiopian Orthodoxy is very, very Jewish. It is arguably the closest thing to a Jewish-Christian faith, Ethiopian Judaism is heavily influenced by Ethiopian Orthodoxy through the judaizing/converting of a powerful Orthodox Priest and royal Prince.
There is an interplay that just is very hard to explain basically. I should make a graph.
>>805103
Thanks
>>804786
>Do you think we all have overlords we answer to and heed as we dominate the world lol
No, but atheism + statism + fascism + Judaism + Lebensraum + America = Israel, as you admit. I just don't understand how Jews can claim not to reflect on your identity/religion/heritage/whatever a lot when it obviously affects you on multiple levels. In terms of 'cabals lel' shit, I just want my country's relationship with Israel to be a bit more debatable and I want Jews to be less overrepresented in media and at universities. I have the same issue with any kind of affirmative action, though, at the end of the day this isn't just about Jews. You guys are just a complex group.
>>804737
Shlomo Sand
