Are the people of England more Germanic or Celtic?
>>995041
germanic for sure.
Anglo-saxon were the dominant group during the reign of William the conqueror, and his ilk was frankish/scandinavian, which adds in even more germanic.
>>995041
>The Romans, Vikings and Normans may have ruled or invaded the British for hundreds of years, but they left barely a trace on our DNA, the first detailed study of the genetics of British people has revealed.
>The analysis shows that the Anglo-Saxons were the only conquering force, around 400-500 AD, to substantially alter the country’s genetic makeup, with most white British people now owing almost 30% of their DNA to the ancestors of modern-day Germans.
>People living in southern and central England today typically share about 40% of their DNA with the French, 11% with the Danes and 9% with the Belgians, the study of more than 2,000 people found. The French contribution was not linked to the Norman invasion of 1066, however, but a previously unknown wave of migration to Britain some time after then end of the last Ice Age nearly 10,000 years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry
>>995049
no, no no.
culturally, absolutely. genetically, the vast, vast majority of people on island are still the same people that built stonehenge. more fair-haired looking people were noted living there in roman days. they just got culturally assfucked by the germanic invaders and became angles, for better or worse.
>>995069
>more fair-haired looking people were noted living there in roman days
Celts were more fair-haired than the Germanics? I always thought it was the other way around.
>>995055
I always figured there was alot of celtic blood in England.
>>995069
>the vast, vast majority of people on the island are still the same people that built stonehenge.
got some evidence to back that claim?
Do the tribes and villages have a strict ethnic identity?
>>995083
Not him, but look up literally any genetic map. The English are definitely a pre-Germanic population and a part of that massive Ibero-Celtic continuum.
I thought this shit was common knowledge too, guess this thread proved me wrong on that.
If you look into it, there is far more R1B Celtic dna in England than I1 Germanic. I1 however could include some Normans, Vikings, and Anglo-Saxons since all three groups have substantial I1. I was surprised when my paternal DNA returned as J2 when my family has deep British routes. I believe that we are descended from Romans as a result of the J2 which is far more common in Italy, Greece and Turkey (for the Turks these would be the Trojans who were absorbed into other conquering cultures, much like the Britons were by the Saxons).
>>995055
>40% of their DNA with the French
Does this come from the Frankish-french or Gaelic inhabitants?
>>995049
>and his ilk was frankish/scandinavian, which adds in even more germanic.
French (yeah, you can call them that. "Frankish" makes no sense after 843) are not Germanic, even those with some Danish ancestry like William
>>995097
I'm guessing that the majority of French DNA for the English comes from the Normans, who were Germanic.
>>995100
>French are not Germanic
What?
>>995097
The French invaded England in 1066
By this time it had been around 5 centuries since the Franks started interbreeding with Gauls
11th century French lords were undoubtebly more Celto-Latin than Germanic in their DNA
>>995095
R1b is Germanic too
>>995097
> The French contribution was not linked to the Norman invasion of 1066, however, but a previously unknown wave of migration to Britain some time after then end of the last Ice Age nearly 10,000 years ago.
>>995097
You should read the rest of it, it's saying that the hunter gatherers living in France at the end of the ice age migrated to England, so the French DNA was due to being the same population at the end of the ice age. So both frankish-french and gaelic would probably be closely related to hunter gatherers from that period as well.
>>995102
Nope
>>995117
the question was to help differentiate the anachronistic term of French.
Were they Germanic or Celtic.
>>995102
>the Normans, who were Germanic.
They largely werent, not in 1066
Normans heavily interbred with the locals, who were Celto-Latin
Rollo's son was already only 50% Germanic
So you can bet your ass that William, who was born more than a century and eight generations later, had barely more than 10% of Danish admixture
>>995107
Have you ever seen a typical Frenchman with his massive nose and olive skin? How do you confuse that for a Germanic?
>>995122
Because the Normans didnt have much influence on England's genetics
I'm not the guy who claimed they did
The Normans were just a few dudes who ruled over the Anglo-Saxon (Germanic) pleb
>>995131
>with his massive nose and olive skin?
Dunno man
Here's the most famous French youtuber
I'm German and he could easily fit here
You must be confusing frogs with Italians
>>995132
>who ruled over the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic mutts.
>>995115
Not exactly. A lot of modern-day Germany was full of Celtic tribes that were absorbed into German culture much like Britain. The Celts even brought R1B to Turkey; if you're familiar with the Bible, you might recall one of Pauls letters (or Peter?) is addressed to the Galatians, dwellers of a city founded by Celts. The people who were truly German by blood possessed I1 dna. That is why there is far more I1 in the north of france where the franks settled, yet hardly any german influence is discernible in Spain where there is plenty R1.
>>995131
I''d rather not make a claim like that based solely on skin color and physical features, although they do help, they are not solid enough for me.
>>995131
The French experienced heavy immigration from Italian peninsula and Slavic lands in the 19th century.
Real French people look like pic related.
>>995151
Love this chick and Adèle. Well, until I met my girlfriend ;)
>>995055
2000 isn't a very large sample, though. I'd find it more compelling if they took a larger sample, but you can get a massive swing in a 2k sample size, especially from region to region.
100% pakistani aren't they?
>>995151
>Slavs in France
>Slavs are olive skinned
The hell am I reading
>>995041
why do I always see penises when I look at colored land maps?
Is there something wrong with me?
>>995090
The Stonehenge builders were the population that was around before the Celts showed up.
>>995160
Well, if you read enough about the history and actually live in the UK or visit you don't really need these studies to tell which areas had more Germanic influence. Generally the further east and north you go in Britain the more Germanic people look. There's a reason why Scots all have red hair and blue eyes...
>>995168
Sronehenge wasn't built, it's a natural formation.
>>995151
Except they didn't have total ROASTIES
>>995041
I don't know what Celts looked like but if Brits are mostly germanic, I'm not surprised since most Brits are blonde with light eyes like Germans, they have the same phenotype.
>>995220
Many Brits look Iberian.
>>995220
>I'm not surprised since most Brits are blonde with light eyes like Germans
This isn't true of Brits OR Germans. Blonde and light eyed people originate in Scandinavia, not Saxony where the English came from.
>>995251
Saxony is Germanic as it gets.
>>995230
Such as?
>>995324
>>995343
>>995353
>>995369
>>995377
>>995343
What does it mean to look Iberian? Many Iberians are light haired and light eyed with pale skin. Rowan is just tan from the sun and his hair was blonde, Mr Bean's lighting just made it look really dark, I guess.
>>995386
>>995388
It's not just eye color, it's the general facial structure too. Atkinson looks nothing like a Germanic person and way more like a Spaniard.
These brown-haired britons are perfect examples of what R1B looks like. These people are celts, although plenty of celts also had blond hair as some of you may remember from Julius Caesar's Gallic Chronicles.
>inb4 lit memes about corn
>>995069
>they just got culturally assfucked by the germanic invaders
So did most "germanic" people in Europe. I don't know why everyone gives the English shit about that. Germanic culture originated in the Baltic sea, do you think Gotlanders genocided everyone down to the Alps?
Since all the genetic autists are in this thread, can you explain to me why, if most of my ancestry comes from Germanic areas, I look almost exactly like Cat Stevens but with straight, poofy hair instead of wavy?
Pic very fucking related
>>995581
You'll need to be more specific. Chances are that culturally your people were Germanic but genetically they were more Celtic since they make up the majority of western Europe's DNA.
>>995581
Because your dad was cuckold?
>>995581
Because some Germans look like that I guess, there would never have been a race consisting solely of blonde hair and blue eyed people, or green eyed red haired etc. And phenotype doesn't reflect the majority of genetic variation between individuals.
>>995588
As far as I know, Swtizerland, the Rhineland, and Lower Saxony.
>>995604
>Rhineland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vSasEZpyVc
>>995604
Well, the closer you get to the alps, the more celtic you are and less germanic. Think of the celts as a buffer between the scandinavians/germanics and the mediterraneans. Also, there is a significabt minority of T1 in the alps, which has its origins in Egypt (!)
>>995604
I also have some Cajun ancestry supposedly.
Britain is the town bike. Everyone in Europe has has a ride.
>>995604
>Switzerland
That's a lot of Germanified Celts anon
>>995581
I'm more puzzled by the fact that a dude is named Cat.
>>995074
he means that even before anglo-saxons in britain, there were according to the romans fair haired people mostly in the east of england, which is still true today, after all the germanic invasions and migrations since. There is a theory that germanic people were in britain even before the anglo-saxons
>>995049
>WE WUZ ARYAN AND SHEEEIT
>>995581
thats normal, most continental germanic people don't look anything like nazi propaganda, especially germans
>>995600
>Because some Germans look like that I guess,
>some
lol
all german people look like that
>>995041
Genetically mostly celtic, culturally germanic
>>995581
There are people this dark in scandinavia. Are you fucking autistic?
Why are people so surprised by this? The Romans didn't exactly immigrate en masse to Britain, it was considered a backwater shithole to them. The Vikings only made an impact genetically on Yorkshire since only there did they bother colonising shit. The Normans literally sent a few thousand noblemen and their retainers over who lost their individual "French" cultural identity and even their names within half a century of arriving on the island.
The Anglo-Saxon invaders were in a chaotic and crazed time, there was no systematic campaign to wipe out the local Briton population, nor was there (as some authors previously believed) a complete and total exodus of all Britons from lowland areas up into Wales, Cornwall and the north. Most "Anglo-Saxons" post-550 were just Celtic people who had, as many had done under the Romans elsewhere in Europe, followed their cultural ascendants in changing their names, following their customs and worshipping their gods.
The main difference between them all is that literally hundreds of thousands of continental Germans from areas like Frisia, Jutland, Angeln and Saxony crossed to Britain, partly a result of large areas of their homeland being lost to the sea.
>>995407
He looks French.
Most people claimed to be "Iberian looking" would be considered swarthy by Iberians themselves.
>>996027
That's wrong.
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml#germanic_migrations
>>996217
The Anglo Saxons made the biggest contribution, 500,000 people i believe. Certainly enough to make at least eastern and northern England 50% Germanic.
For what its worth I'm a British man with an entirely British family and this my genetics. The two pie charts are different calculators interpretations of the same test. It's not an exact science but the results are always broadly similar
>>996286
2000 people isn't enough for accurate results. That's like testing 10 grains of sand on a beach.
>>996289
2000 is a pretty good sample size m8. To me the patterns seem expected, but if future studies disprove the general trends feel free to post them.
>>995069
>genetically, the vast, vast majority of people on island are still the same people that built stonehenge.
Lol what?
According to new studies all of Western and Southern Europe was inhabited by neolithic farmers untill 2000 bc, Stonehenge began to be built around 3000 bc, so those who built ti were most likely genetically closer to modern day Southern European ethnicites such as Sardinians and Basque people.
>>995107
>>995069
This. The same goes for the French as well.
>>996329
I think the stonehenge bit was just a play on words, he probably meant that they are still mainly celtic. Which is what i am saying as well.
>>996348
And which is wrong.
Or if you believe that, then you must also believe that the inhabitants of the USA are still "mainly native american".
>>996304
>>995069
Yea the Neolithic farmer types are well and truly gone from England and most of Britain. We're a Celtic people predominantly. You can see the Neolithic types are still quite prevalent in Ireland though, it's called "Black Irish". Same goes for Scotland. But you don't find too many of those types in England and if you do they often say they're half Irish or something.
This guy from Sharpe is a good example of Black Irish, meaning he's mostly neolithic and not Celtic.
>>996351
false equivalence
>>996363
Brythonic celts were never swarthy with dark hair m8, the "black irish" and welsh came from migrations from Iberia.
>>996403
Whats that i just said.
>>995049
Celtic m8
Germanics were the aristocracy but never the majority.
Recent genetic studies confirm this. (R1b-L21* Celtic subclades)
>>995148
True, that is why the Germanic subclades within R1b are really Celto-Germanic. This goes for the Franks too (R1b-U106).
>>995275
I call bullshit on this one. According to the most recent Belgian study (Larmuseau et al 2013), which screens a 1000+ population of people who can prove ancestry in the area up til the early 19th century.
All I haplogroup combined in never more than 20%
They must have add up all I + R1b-U106, and you can't call the latter Saxons. They added up Germanic + Celto-Germanic.
In Britain, even in the Anglo-Saxon parts, the Celtic subclades are still the majority.
>>995814
>I'm more puzzled by the fact that a dude is named Cat.
That's actually an old Germanic name (Chatti tribe, many of their settlements now carry the name Kat-/Cat-: Katwijk, Kattegem, Katbosch, Cattenberg)
>>996217
>The Normans literally sent a few thousand noblemen and their retainers over who lost their individual "French" cultural identity and even their names within half a century of arriving on the island.
Half of William the Conqueror's army were Flemish mercenaries.
>>995041
more germanic than southern germans at least
>>995041
The English people are Germanic, only Cornwall is celtic.
>>996927
>t. Cornish individual
Even Cornwall was eventually conquered by the Saxons. By the same logic it has been exposed to just as much racial mixing as most of the other regions of lowland Britain. The only difference is that due to its sparse population, rural nature and terrain its old language managed to survive a lot longer than elsewhere in the country.
>>995041
It's hard to tell because, Saxons and Celts are both R1b
>>997001
>both r1b
celts confirmed meme
>>995041
Their language is Germanic. Thus, they are Germanic.
That's it. Anything else is nationalist autism with no basis in legitimate research
>>995131
Germanic is not a genetic or racial descriptor
>>997129
It's mental condition though. Like if you're germanic you're gonna do something stupid whole the time
>>997001
You know you can break down R1b to dozens of subclades right
>>997112
>Haitians speak French so they are European and French! anything else is nationalistic autism
This is what you sound like. I bet you think the French are latins.
>>996315
Stop posting this god awful retarded map.
>>997438
A French creole is not the same thing as French
>>997736
Well, English is a Germanic creole with shitton of Romance words in it
>>997736
So those who speak impeccable French like Quebecois are French? You're an Idiot.
>>997826
No, they are Latins, are you slow by any chance?
>>997826
>impeccable French like Quebecois
>>997837
They don't think so. They are not even catholic. Neither do the French themselves think they are latin. They literally call the gauls "Their ancestors". English is an Amalgamation of Latin, French, and Germanic so what are they?
>>997847
A weird accent and stupid slang isn't Haitian tier.
>>997858
You are now aware that Paris was the Capital of the Latin Union.
Or that Spaniards literally called the Goths "Their ancestors".
>>997876
The French are Celtic-Germanic that speak a bastardized Latin language and are Catholics. They are not Latins. Spaniards don't say that.
>>997887
So you dont know what are you talking about, as I thought.
>>997915
You literally brought up a defunct organization as proof. I'm from Quebec. You've also ignored my questions regarding how you'd categorize English. Their language is heavily latin and French, yet they are not latins. The French gave more to Anglos than the Romans ever did to the Gauls and Franks, yet we don't call the English either Francophonie or Latins.
>>997937
>The French gave more to Anglos than the Romans ever did to the Gauls and Franks
U wot?
>>995390
ITS THE ETERNAL ANGLO GUY
i hate russel fuckin cultural marxist sniveling rat
Germanic. Celts never really settled in the British isles. If anything they simply created a ruling class and imposed on the native inhabitants their culture and language.
Is celtic more of a cultural term or an ethnic term?
MUH GENES WE ARE CELTIC
they are culturally Germanic, except for the actually Celtic-speaking areas of the western coats of Ireland, Scottish Highlands, and Wales.
>>995151
b-blue board
muh dik
>>998227
ethnicity has an implication of culture, and ethnicity is a race and culture combined, as in, a group of one people with their own culture. as time goes on, admixture between different people means a near-certainty that there will be a mixture of previously celtic/germanic/latin folk in your bloodline
so it is best to take a people for its culture, germanised Celts should be called Germanic, especially since we don't know how strictly Celtic their bloodline was to begin with.
Stupid question. As previous posters have said, genetically most Brits are descended from inhabitants of the isles thousands of years ago. Celtic and Germanic are significant in terms of culture not genetics.
>>998862
>Celtic and Germanic are significant in terms of culture not genetics.
But they are
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples#Genetics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_British_Isles
That being said, English and Scottish are their own ethnic groups.
>>998908
I guarantee you any manner of white person, Slavic, Latin, Hellenic, or non-IE will be well considered Anglo or Celtic provided they adapt to the culture. It's simply that that culture developed among a specific group of people initially.
>>999187
Did you even read what I posted? Genetics is a tangible real thing. Those may be considered a British citizen but they are not Anglo or Celtic. Those are specific ethnic groups in the UK associated with them. Literally "White British" for those who've been here generations and "White" are both categories. You don't guarantee anything because that's not the case.
>>999202
Those are cultural terms associated with a group in origin. You aren't an Anglo by birth, you are by culture.
Your bloodline may have a history of association with this group, but that doesn't necessarily make then Celtic, the notion, if it's a thing, ought to be done away with.
>>999214
>You aren't an Anglo by birth, you are by culture.
Genetics say otherwise. Jesus christ, I'm being objective here. You can look look this up. I think I even posted the specific genetic markers to be considered part of the groups that made up the "Anglo saxons" and "Bythronic celts". Those are real tangible measurable things.
>Your bloodline may have a history of association with this group, but that doesn't necessarily make then Celtic, the notion, if it's a thing, ought to be done away with
That's literally what inheritance is. That's what Genetics are studied for other than combating disease. Why should that be done away with?
>>999233
What they possess is merely a gene. They have nothing more than r1b or so.
Their religion, language, warfare, customs, dress, these make them Anglo or Celtic it whatnot.
>>999255
>They have nothing more than r1b or so.
That may be a facet but that's not exclusive to the UK, that's spread among Iberia and France. No, there are specific markers noting migration patterns for the last 1000 years and much earlier. It's not just culture. You're saying a Greek who moves to the UK and wears a kilt suddenly becomes a scott? I bet you're American.
>>999271
>I bet you're an American
So you're saying that just because my great x5 grandfather's ass moved to British North America in 1766 from lower Germany, I'm not Anglo, but rather a German, despite all the culture and practices to the contrary?
I'm saying a culture develops amongst a group with a homogenous society and progresses. That culture, while associated with that gene, can include all peoples who adopt the culture, because they are now practitioners of that culture.
Maybe what we're looking for here is ethnicity (culture and race) vs culture alone. I am Anglo. I am not ethnically Anglo.
>>999296
>I am Anglo. I am not ethnically Anglo.
Then you're not Anglo, you're German descent living in America and you've adopted some of Anglo culture. Now I see why you're personally invested in this. You may be in the Anglo sphere with certain aspects of Anglo culture but you are uniquely American. You're culture is not British culture. It's the dominant American culture. Culture also evolves. How we tell who people are and what tribe they are from so to speak is mainly genetics also family names, culture and history, etc. I can't move to Turkey and speak Turkish and associate myself with the the ottoman empire. Living in a garage for 20 years doesn't make me a car.
>>999315
>ways I am German
>have some blood from there
>...
>ways I am Anglo
>speak English
>protestant
>live under a WASP-made government
>live in a former British colony
Next you'll say Canada and Australia aren't Anglo because they aren't literally England. Cultures evolve, all these came from Proto-Germanic, now you're seeing different subsets of Anglo.
Why the hell I'd be German while lacking any German culture is beyond me.
>>995041
they're english
>>999315
>Then you're not Anglo, you're German descent living in America and you've adopted some of Anglo culture.
>>999366
>Now I see why you're personally invested in this.
Ad hominem
>You may be in the Anglo sphere with certain aspects of Anglo culture but you are uniquely American. You're culture is not British culture. It's the dominant American culture.
both are Anglo
>Culture also evolves.
Into subsets of others
>How we tell who people are and what tribe they are from so to speak is mainly genetics also family names, culture and history, etc.
>It's primarily things like culture, specifically language. The world isn't clear cut along genetic lines
>I can't move to Turkey and speak Turkish and associate myself with the the ottoman empire.
That's literally how you become a Turk, and if you live and act like a Turk, you may as well associate yourself with past Turks. After all, not literally ever ethnic group is related to one another
>Living in a garage for 20 years doesn't make me a car.
Bring treated like a car, and performing as well as a car and performing car tasks at a car level, while knowing nothing else, makes you for all intensive purposes, a car.
Wow 4chan is retarded on discussions of genetics.
>>999366
America is mostly made up of Germans and Irish. You're fought for independence. You don't have an official language. You're equally catholic as you are protostant. But you specifically are of German descent living the America that is in the Anglo-sphere. You live within it, but you're not an Anglo. That doesn't mean there should be vitriol or anything I'm not trying to insult you.
>>999403
>Ad hominem
I wasn't attacking him, I was making an observation.
>That's literally how you become a Turk, and if you live and act like a Turk, you may as well associate yourself with past Turks. After all, not literally ever ethnic group is related to one another
No, no it's not. That's how I assimilate into Turkish society. But I'm in no way shape or form a Turk on anything other than my citizenship papers. To be a Turk, you have to be ethnically a Turk. Part of the Amalgamation that are Turkic/Anatolian peoples.
>If I act like a car and I'm told I'm a car that means I'm a car
No.
>>999470
M8 I'm culturally Anglo, and should be considered Anglo, my family had been Anglo for over 200 years culturally.
You aren't making the proper distinctions between Ethnicity and Culture. Furthermore, you're neglecting to address points I've made, instead, substituting notions.
>>995220
You are an idiot. Most of us have blue eyes and dark brown to light brown hair with multi coloured beards. Most of us are bright blonde as kids before our hair darkens with age. Only massive permenant blonds are those on the east coast and even then its not all.
>>995220
Wut
British people are mostly brown haired with brown eyes
>>996363
Holy shit, dude looks exactly like my uncle, he always said our family was black Irish
>>995095
>>995115
R1b is armenoid
>>1001698
>armenoid
thats the most ridiculous oid ive heard yet
>>1001705
Embrace the memes
>>1001656
It's 48% blue, 30% green, 22% brown. Granted, blue eyes do get less common the further south you go, and certainly if you live in an area full of ethnic minorities.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/blue-eyes-are-more-common-any-other-colour-britain-1463258
>>1001698
>Greece and Albania are North African
>Khazakhstan is Northern Proto-Australisian
Rather interesting.
>celtic genes
>germanic genes
>this thread
>>1001698
>Dominant haplogroup by country
This is some useless map, senpai.
>>996403
wait arent welsh brythonic celts?
t. clueless american
>>995160
>2000 isn't a very large sample
2000 is an incredibly robust sample size for a study like this.
t. physics and math degrees
>>995131
I have never seen a swarthy native Frenchmen. I have seen a shit ton of Greeks and Italians or Spaniards though.
>>1002468
>>1002476
That's not swarthy.
>>1002495
The guy you posted looks whiter than Clavier.
