The last millennium of the Roman Empire might as well have been a Christian caliphate run by Armenians (proto-Turks). Why is this Byzantium so glorified by Hellenists and Classicists here, when the actual Hellenes lost power.
Pic related: average Byzantine.
The Turks also called themselves "Romans," lol.
really good thread
>>791290
>Christian caliphate
The Caliphate was an Islamic copy of the Empire, so kind of?
>>791445
>The Caliphate was an Islamic copy of the Empire
le no
Actually though, why are so many historians fascinated with the Byzantines? Seems kind of boring to me. Can someone explain?
>>791471
they survived really long, like thousand years long, and their history was pretty tragic, reading about heraclius and the late empire was pretty sad.
>>791348
they did not, Sultanate of Rum != being Rum. Rum was specifically used for Christian Greeks and it is still used today.
>>791290
>>791449
Calihpate is not ERE but I understand where OP is coming from, after all it literally was "THE" Christian Empire up until maybe the time of 8-9th century.
>>791471
It is a relatively unexplored subject. Classical Greece and Rome is milked way too heavily so the scholarship is moving on the late antiquity.
That is just my humble opinion though. I'm a phd fag in byzantine history so this is my observation but I would hardly call myself an authority.
>>791471
>why are so many historians fascinated with the Byzantines?
I don't know about historians, but personally I found the mix of middle ages tech and late antiquity-like society to be fairly dick-rising.
>>791445
Not a COPY! But one and the SAME form of government-theocracy!
By the way I actually like Byzantine history, but this new focus on it has brought about this idea inadvertently that it was somehow "the real Roman empire" all the way through its existence. Rome as Romans knew it died quite clearly in the West, and in the East it slowly became a vessel for the REAL "Judeo-Christian" Civilization, the one that ultimately became Islamic to express its piety.
Byzantine history should be inextricably intertwined with Islam and even be considered a precursor along with the later Zoroastrians.
>>791533
Hardly so mate, It is not to say that Muslims did not adopted a lot of things from the Romans but you are overemphasizing the similarities while ignoring the differences.
>>791537
>Hardly so mate, It is not to say that Muslims did not adopted a lot of things from the Romans but you are overemphasizing the similarities while ignoring the differences.
Not from "The Romans" but the people of Anatolia who made up so much of the Christian Caliphate, emperors and iconoclasts little different from Muslims.
Just look at Alexandria. That could have been carried out by Muslims. Classical Rome and Christian-Islamic culture are opposing cultures.
So did Mosques copy Byzantine architecture or wa it the other way around?
>>791588
There wasn't a huge distinction between Jewish and Byzantine architecture, nevermind later Islamic.
>>791496
Ok, you're a phd candidate in Byzantine history. So, are there any particular figures in Byzantine history that you find interesting? Any facts about them that fascinate you? I'm just trying to understand the appeal.
>>791348
Nope. Rum was used in two contexts:
1) To refer to Christian Greeks
2) To refer to land conquered from the Christian Greeks
The Seljuks referred to Anatolia as the land of the Rum. The Ottomans referred to land further West than this as the land of the Rum (literally "Rumeli", which is where we get the name for Rumelia).
Rum still carries the same meaning in modern Turkish:
https://www.seslisozluk.net/en/what-is-the-meaning-of-Rum/
Don't get suckered in by the Sultanate of Rome meme.
Nothing history. Abrahamism (Kikeism, Christianity or Islam, doesn't matter) cannot fail to put out the flame of genius everywhere it prevails.
Imagine a Tengrist or even Tibetan Buddhist Turkish Empire! Now that would be epic!
>>791631
>Don't get suckered in by the Sultanate of Rome meme.
Guess I was wrong.
>>791650
Nothing interesting.
>>791650
Hella fuckin epic bro!
>>791650
>omans referred to land further West than this as the land of the Rum (literally "Rumeli", which is where we get the name for Rumelia).
Abrahamism didn't hold back the West at all from conquering the world, because the spirituality is still different depending on the culture. Armeno-Anatolian people had a similar culture whether Christian or Turk-Muslim.
khebab
>>791699
>Abrahamism didn't hold back the West
Happy choice of words. Notice, didn't hold back. The West was great not beacuse, but in spite of Christ-insanity. Even my Christian history teacher admits hat it was difficult to "domesticate" the "Germanic beast", and we are seeing the result of this "domestication" now (liberalism, human rights, cuckoldry etc.).
Medieval society was highly Indo-European. The love combat, chivalry and song... The Medieval Church was nothing like the egalitarian doomsday cult of Yeshua; it was hierarchical, paganized, it retained the veneration of the ancestors and gods of Paganism in the guise of saints; the love of nature, the celebration of the seasons solstices and equinoxes in the holy year. Church art, music and architecture were beautiful, joyous and serene, and yet the Abrahamics would have us humming monotonous Judaized chants in darkened rooms with no images, forever debating meaningless Judaized drivel, burning books and persecuting heresy wherever found.
>>791773
>Medieval society was highly Indo-European. The love combat, chivalry and song... The Medieval Church was nothing like the egalitarian doomsday cult of Yeshua; it was hierarchical, paganized, it retained the veneration of the ancestors and gods of Paganism in the guise of saints; the love of nature, the celebration of the seasons solstices and equinoxes in the holy year. Church art, music and architecture were beautiful, joyous and serene, and yet the Abrahamics would have us humming monotonous Judaized chants in darkened rooms with no images, forever debating meaningless Judaized drivel, burning books and persecuting heresy wherever found.
Paganism has nothing to do with it. India is pagan and it's a literal shit hole. It has to do with genes and individualism whatever religion it is expressed in. Fuck Paganism. Fuck Christianity.
>>791616
Anyone?
>>791811
Paganism can mean many things depending on who is using it. To Christ-insane-tards it can mean anything from African jungle cults to Islam(!).
By Paganism I mean the spontaneous, unperverted conceptions of the Indo-European mind which usually take the form of love of nature and one's own kin, a tragic and non-linear view of history and a hierarchical view of being.
>>791870
>By Paganism I mean the spontaneous, unperverted conceptions of the Indo-European mind which usually take the form of love of nature and one's own kin, a tragic and non-linear view of history and a hierarchical view of being.
Yeah, I know what you meant. India blows. So did Nazi Germany. Enjoy.
>>791870
Paganism is just polytheism to Christians
I've never heard a Christian call Muslims pagan
>>791884
>I've never heard a Christian call Muslims pagan
It would actually happen when "Indoeuropeans" like Roland invoked some kind of "pagan" label on Saracens. Not like it matters the word.
Back on topic, Byzantine civilization repels me because it smacks of a civilization in which the sun of greatness has set and given way to Abrahamic darkness and gloom.
See >>791599
bump2
Jews
>>791773
What even...? What are you talking about?
Can you explain in any rational terms what's wrong with Christianity?
Do you just have some sort of unrealistic, idealized vision of pagan Antiquity?
>>791290
>when the actual Hellenes lost power.
Except that they were in charge of the Empire, only difference was that they were known as Romans or Graikoi
>>791290
Early Byzantine empire was run mostly by Dalmatians,Thracians, Anatolian and other Latin speaking peoples.
After Heraclius almost all of the Byzantine Emperors were ethnically, linguistically and culturaly Greek.
Unfortunately not a lot information has survived about the Byzantine Greek nobility, but at least until the Komnenean dynasty it possessed a lot of political power and influence. And you only have but to do a little google search to find out that all Byzantine literature, philosophy and poetry was almost in it's in entirety written in Greek.
So no, you are full of shit.
>>793903
>written in Greek.
Uh... yes. Just like various Romanized people spoke Latin. But an Armeno-Anatolian speaking Koine then switching to Turkish later on doesn't tell me anything about how "Greek" they were, since that language expanded far beyond Greeks. The New Testament was written in Greek...
>>793914
>>793903
>Heraclius was the eldest son of Heraclius the Elder and Epiphania, of an Armenian family from Cappadocia,[A 2][5] probably of Arsacid descent.[6] Beyond that, there is little specific information known about his ancestry. His father was a key general during Emperor Maurice's war with Bahrām Chobin, usurper of the Sassanid Empire, during 590.[7] After the war, Maurice appointed Heraclius the Elder to the position of Exarch of Africa.[7]
>>791496
are you teaching at the sorbonne ?
here in france there's like 30 people in the entire country studying byzantine at a phd level
